Scouts red headed stepchildren of DPS (or afk)

[Cora]

I don't understand this. My guildmates on teamspeak are baffled beyond words. We informed these guys how bad their dps was.... Every group I have been in I have been top DPS in dragonstance while not tanking. Exception is wizards on AE encounters, and ONE assassin EVER who was plus or minus 1.0 dps of mine. (Not the assassin in second log, I told him I was parsing him and he spruced up, but for most of the fights was still substantially less).

 

Here are some random samplings from my 190 logged fights today.

 

These are the order of time elapsed, damage dealt, dps. Each encounter will be grouped.

 

 

Keep in mind that in this group, the Swashbuckler is 39, I am 35, Guardian is 36 and Brigand is 36.

 

Monk Total:    00:01:01 2744  44.98      

Guardian Total:    00:00:57 1969  34.54      

Swash Total:    00:00:57 2218  38.91      

Brigand Total:    00:00:48 1693  35.27      

 

 

 

Monk Total:    00:00:52 2968  57.08      

Guardian Total:    00:00:48 1405  29.27      

Swash Total:    00:00:48 1906  39.71      

Brigand Total:    00:00:28 1311  46.82      

 

 

** Here's one encounter where I only used 4 special attacks.

 

Monk Total:    00:01:30 2276  25.29      

Guardian Total:    00:01:31 3152  34.64      

Swash Total:    00:01:26 2363  27.48      

Brigand Total:    00:01:33 1880  20.22      

 

 

Monk Total:    00:01:57 4895  41.84      

Guardian Total:    00:02:09 3334  25.84      

Swash Total:    00:01:57 4919  42.04      

Total:    00:01:59 3765  31.64      

 

 

Next group: Everyone was my level ish. I forget exact order.

 

Monk Total:    00:00:43 2479  57.65      

Paladin Total:    00:00:51 1988  38.98      

Ranger Total:    00:00:47 1645  35.00      

Assassin Total:    00:00:39 2535  65.00      

 

 

Monk Total:    00:00:43 2786  64.79      

Paladin Total:    00:00:46 1586  34.48      

Ranger Total:    00:00:44 1859  42.25      

Assassin Total:    00:00:49 2661  54.31      

 

Monk Total:    00:00:53 2910  54.91      

Paladin Total:    00:00:51 1659  32.53 

Ranger Total:    00:00:58 1392  24.00      

Assassin Total:    00:00:51 2556  50.12      

 

 

The other group I was in today was a quest group for DFC access so that one doesn't really count. Of course I took the time today to tank and was [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] dps tanking because face of the mountain TAKES SO MUCH POWER. All of the previous logs count as monk as dps not as tank.

 

All in all, I conclude that paladins are [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] compared to guardians, and that assassins are the closest class to the dps of monks I've seen, from a dps-on-mob standpoint. Wizards, of course, rule the AE dps.

 

 

** I told the guardian I was going to parse him and to wake up this fight. I was busy opening parser and forgot to attack :

 

 

Another sad conclusion I can draw, is that class matters less than paying attention and not being afk. A non afk guardian can triple the dps of a halfass scout any day. I annouced my parse logs to the group and the scouts woke up and said it was wrong when I was doing 1500 - 2500 more damage per fight than them. On average I'd say most of my encounters I ruled by a large margin. I picked a variety of samples to post, however. I excluded bunk ones with afk people.

 

 

It seems even the hardest EQ2 encounters could be won with 8 templars and 16 guardians. The other classes in the game are just here to confuse us. 90% of our dps comes from going 5 6 7 8 9 5 6 7 8 9 5 6 7 8 9 instead of being a certain class, which makes perfect sense. EQ2 is not an autoattack and afk type of game. For the sake of the groups you join, please use specials and drink water. Until then, I am going to be doing triple your damage per encounter and getting twice the xp because I am not afk.

 

Don't use the logs and 6 sets of definitive proof that I am right or wrong, they are 6 out of 191, and the experience of looking at about 3000 parsed encounters. I've seen the good, the bad, and the afk. I'm going mostly off of experience rather than proof. I put up a couple logs so no one would try and call bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] or demand proof, like I am here to lie for some reason. Monks are top notch DPS. Anyone is top notch dps. While not afk. At 35, my templar friend once parsed 53.5DPS on a level 37 blightrat. He outdamaged our ranger. EQ2 is afk based, EQ1 is class based. That is all.

Take this all with a grain of salt: he who parses rarely slacks. However, I sustained my dps for 8 hours, so I am not exaggerating the damage dealt that I normally do.

Message Edited by Coraz2 on 01-01-2005 11:13 PM

[Mamasee]

Guess you are not working the heroic oppertunites then.

[bonesbro]

Can you see DOT effects from other players? For instance, Swooping Dragon adds a 4 tick DOT, and I'm sure you can see that in your own logs, but could you tell if the other classes wer using something similar?

[Gaige]

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Mamaseeta wrote:
Guess you are not working the heroic oppertunites then.

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Heroic Opportunities SUCK in the higher lvls.

We did a 4 chain DD that hit for 713.  My wizard friend can hit for almost that with one spell.

Until they adjust HOs to scale with lvl there is no reason at all to do them in the higher lvls.

We sometimes do arcane chalice, but the damage doers are a complete waste.

[Blaze]

It depends on what HOs you do. Last night my group did a 2150 damage HO and we were only levels 36-37. You just have to know the correct advancement path to get the good ones.

[Dovifat]

Does the parser include poison damage ? Did someone else in your group run a parser as well ( same program if possible ) ? What level are your spells/combat arts at, compared to the other team members ?

[Mamasee]

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Gage-Mikel wrote:

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Mamaseeta wrote:
Guess you are not working the heroic oppertunites then.

---

Heroic Opportunities SUCK in the higher lvls.

We did a 4 chain DD that hit for 713. My wizard friend can hit for almost that with one spell.

Until they adjust HOs to scale with lvl there is no reason at all to do them in the higher lvls.

We sometimes do arcane chalice, but the damage doers are a complete waste.

---

Let me see if I understand you correctly, and additional 700 point chain sucks?

[Cora]

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bonesbro wrote:
Can you see DOT effects from other players? For instance, Swooping Dragon adds a 4 tick DOT, and I'm sure you can see that in your own logs, but could you tell if the other classes wer using something similar?

---

Yes, Necromancers are pretty good dps if you add their dot dps and pet damage.

[Cora]

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Mamaseeta wrote:

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Gage-Mikel wrote:

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Mamaseeta wrote:
Guess you are not working the heroic oppertunites then.

---

Heroic Opportunities SUCK in the higher lvls.

We did a 4 chain DD that hit for 713. My wizard friend can hit for almost that with one spell.

Until they adjust HOs to scale with lvl there is no reason at all to do them in the higher lvls.

We sometimes do arcane chalice, but the damage doers are a complete waste.

---

Let me see if I understand you correctly, and additional 700 point chain sucks?

---

Additional 700 damage that keeps people from using their abilities for 10seconds. If you time it exactly with macros somehow, you'd probably knock 1 second off of your time to kill.

[Mamasee]

Additional 700 damage that keeps people from using their abilities for 10seconds. If you time it exactly with macros somehow, you'd probably knock 1 second off of your time to kill.I am in groups where we all get off our abilities and work the HO chains, the rogue classes are the master of the wheel, they do a lot of dammage it and manipulate the chains.

[Blaze]

In my parsing the damage of a rouge/assassin is very close to monks when they use poison. When they dont I do outdamage them by a fair bit. But considering how much utility scouts get I have no problem with monks doing more damage. They have group stealth, evac, mezes, debuffs. Scouts role is more then just DPS, a monks usually isnt.

[Jezekie]

As the above poster mentions, the problems with most scouts is that they aren't using poisons, and when questioned about it, often the response is "we get poisons?". In beta when poisons were introduced scouts DPS were lowered over all to balance it out. The thing is if they use poisons they would exceed the damage they could do pre the introduction of poisons. So overall it was a boost to the scouts, just that they have to use poisons.There's an assassin I group with quite regularely, and his DPS is above mine by a good 10-20 dps it seems, from the short parses I've had the opportunity to do. Granted he's also two lvls above me at the time of this parse.Buttom line is also that the scout tree isn't meant to be pure DPS, they have alot of utility, like escape, and stealthing your group, as well as track. This naturally takes away from their DPS. Look to the mage branch for raw DPS, wizards and warlocks breath death and destruction provided they have not slacked with their spells.Which brings up another point, it's too early to do any sorts of reliable parses, peoples levels and gears varies alot, as does the mobs everyone is fighting. Rarely if ever does one group stick to the excact same lvl/type of mobs in an exp grind session.

Message Edited by Jezekiell on 01-02-2005 09:35 PM

[Cora]

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Mamaseeta wrote:
Additional 700 damage that keeps people from using their abilities for 10seconds. If you time it exactly with macros somehow, you'd probably knock 1 second off of your time to kill.


I am in groups where we all get off our abilities and work the HO chains, the rogue classes are the master of the wheel, they do a lot of dammage it and manipulate the chains.

---

So then scouts are dps classes because they are masters of doing medicore bonus attacks that you need teamspeak and practice to coordinate, that don't work when you have adds, wizards AEing, or clerics healing?

[Cora]

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Jezekiell wrote:

Which brings up another point, it's too early to do any sorts of reliable parses

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Then it's always too early to do parses, because this game doesn't end.

[Mamasee]

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Coraz2 wrote:

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Mamaseeta wrote:
Additional 700 damage that keeps people from using their abilities for 10seconds. If you time it exactly with macros somehow, you'd probably knock 1 second off of your time to kill.


I am in groups where we all get off our abilities and work the HO chains, the rogue classes are the master of the wheel, they do a lot of dammage it and manipulate the chains.

---

So then scouts are dps classes because they are masters of doing medicore bonus attacks that you need teamspeak and practice to coordinate, that don't work when you have adds, wizards AEing, or clerics healing?

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Meadicore? You are mistaken. I do not use teamspeak, or any other communication to iniate or continue HOs, othere than group speak.They are not that hard to use, what is hard it to train players not to spamm there special attacks.

[Gaige]

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Mamaseeta wrote:
Additional 700 damage that keeps people from using their abilities for 10seconds. If you time it exactly with macros somehow, you'd probably knock 1 second off of your time to kill.


I am in groups where we all get off our abilities and work the HO chains, the rogue classes are the master of the wheel, they do a lot of dammage it and manipulate the chains.

---

You mean scout classes not rogues.

Yes, an additional 700dmg sucks when it forces ppl to not use their abilities.

Besides, assassins can hit for 2k + with normal abilities in the right group.

HOs are a waste, except Arcane Chalice, as I stated.

In the time you can do one 700DD HO a warlock can hit for 600, 650, 500.  A monk can hit for 400, 300, 200.  An assassin can hit for 1500, 400, 300.

Or they can all wait in order to do a 700dmg HO.

No thanks.

[swampthing]

The thing that bugs me the most about these parses is that it really just doesn't matter what class you take. Dps? who cares, just play a guardian. I think in their quest for "balance" they've gone and neutered any kind of individuality and class benefit. Talk about watered down.

[Mamasee]

In the time you can do one 700DD HO a warlock can hit for 600, 650, 500. A monk can hit for 400, 300, 200. An assassin can hit for 1500, 400, 300.Or they can all wait in order to do a 700dmg HO.I do not have a prolbem using my attack abilities and using HOs

[Gaige]

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Mamaseeta wrote:
In the time you can do one 700DD HO a warlock can hit for 600, 650, 500. A monk can hit for 400, 300, 200. An assassin can hit for 1500, 400, 300.

Or they can all wait in order to do a 700dmg HO.


I do not have a prolbem using my attack abilities and using HOs

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Then I'm happy for you   But my group has killed practically every mob in the game w/o HOs, w/o downtime and with one healer.

 

I don't see the point in doing them since they provide no real benefit.

[io]

I have been parsing since lv 30 ( 34 atm ) and all the time i make around 20 to 50% more dps than any mage or scout subclass, we make around x4 more dps than a scot/bard subclass and i only get outdamaged by other monk or bruiser.But in fact, a guardian or pal with a good 2h weapon have a dps near us, and usually do more dps than a mage also...The core of the problem is that a lot of people think that we are useless when in fact we have the better dps of the game ( maybe this can change in later levels though ).Just my 2cp

[Pheihong]

ho at 40+ = useless... ne way why you guys posting this?  we dont wanna get nerf do we?

[netswine]

HO's even at less than lvl 40 are not incredibly usefull to my opinion. As Gage said, the HO's are not scaling up with level. Even at soloing, I don't use HO's anymore. I rather use power for an additional attack than waste in on a taunting skill to complete Sky Cleave/Crushing Anvil for meager damage.

[Pheihong]

yes, if it scales with level, then it's useful.. but since it doesn't i can dish out 2k dmg in the time it takes to pull off the ho, and that's jsut me alone.

[Jer]

What about equipment and skill upgrade levels? What do the weapons con to their users?

 

I've seen the DPS of my Assassin friend increase dramatically just from upgrading his App II skills to Adept I.

 

I've seen one melee DPS character put out lousy DPS and another the same level, race, and class put out good DPS.

 

[Jezekie]

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Coraz2 wrote:

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Jezekiell wrote:

Which brings up another point, it's too early to do any sorts of reliable parses

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Then it's always too early to do parses, because this game doesn't end.

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Not quite. When more people hits lvl 50, and the gear progression settles down, and skills doesn't progress more then is the time to do parses en mass.

[Mamasee]

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Gage-Mikel wrote:

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Mamaseeta wrote:
In the time you can do one 700DD HO a warlock can hit for 600, 650, 500. A monk can hit for 400, 300, 200. An assassin can hit for 1500, 400, 300.

Or they can all wait in order to do a 700dmg HO.


I do not have a prolbem using my attack abilities and using HOs

---

Then I'm happy for you But my group has killed practically every mob in the game w/o HOs, w/o downtime and with one healer.

I don't see the point in doing them since they provide no real benefit.

---

I have been in groups that have workes well together without using chains, it does take more effort to get chains to work, but when they do everything works better. As for them being useless at the upper levels I have not experenced, however the dammage I am reading about is quite impressive. Altho I have heard about several other items being broke at the upper level.

[ForceUs]

To Gage:

Some of those HOs not only do damage but also reduce the targets
mitigation vs. certain types of attacks (i.e. slashing, cruching,
arcane, etc.) So you may pull off an HO that only does 200 points of
damage, but then everybody who is using a slashing weapon may be doing
+10% per hit kind of thing.

HOs are complicated and often subtle. My group is mowing through

opponents while using them. The healers definitely see a difference when

some of the debuffs are landed.

Concerning the only DD HO we have in our lineup (Divine Blade), we only
include that as free extra damage anyway. If the fighter can manage to
hit the HO right as the heal lands it just drops into an automatic
Combat Wheel.

What does Divine Blade do? 120% Divine DD. For how long? I'm not sure.
But the uncommon Combat Wheel is Crippling Shield and that is a 36
second slow on the target. Chalice of Life (the Rare) doubles effect of
our party's wards, regens, and instant heals for 90 seconds. All
possible when the fighter just taps his HO when a heal is incoming.

Tanks know when they are commonly being healed. It is worth it
to just tap the HO once in a while during those times to see if we get
lucky. We don't really expect to constantly land that Combat Wheel,
but if we don't it certainly doesn't hurt us any.

[Gaige]

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Jeron wrote:

What about equipment and skill upgrade levels? What do the weapons con to their users?

 

I've seen the DPS of my Assassin friend increase dramatically just from upgrading his App II skills to Adept I.

 

I've seen one melee DPS character put out lousy DPS and another the same level, race, and class put out good DPS.

 

---

Assassins rely on a few things for huge damage:

1) Debuffs

2) STR buffs (troub/dirge combos work well)

3) Adept 1+ skills (most the top 10 highest melee use Adept 3 skills)

That scenario is needed for those high 2k+ hits.

[Gaige]

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ForceUser wrote:

To Gage:

Some of those HOs not only do damage but also reduce the targets
mitigation vs. certain types of attacks (i.e. slashing, cruching,
arcane, etc.) So you may pull off an HO that only does 200 points of
damage, but then everybody who is using a slashing weapon may be doing
+10% per hit kind of thing.

HOs are complicated and often subtle. My group is mowing through

opponents while using them. The healers definitely see a difference when

some of the debuffs are landed.

Concerning the only DD HO we have in our lineup (Divine Blade), we only
include that as free extra damage anyway. If the fighter can manage to
hit the HO right as the heal lands it just drops into an automatic
Combat Wheel.

What does Divine Blade do? 120% Divine DD. For how long? I'm not sure.
But the uncommon Combat Wheel is Crippling Shield and that is a 36
second slow on the target. Chalice of Life (the Rare) doubles effect of
our party's wards, regens, and instant heals for 90 seconds. All
possible when the fighter just taps his HO when a heal is incoming.

Tanks know when they are commonly being healed. It is worth it
to just tap the HO once in a while during those times to see if we get
lucky. We don't really expect to constantly land that Combat Wheel,
but if we don't it certainly doesn't hurt us any.

---

Cool, and we are mowing through opponents without using them.

I used to be all about HOs in my teens, but I'm telling you above 30, and really above 40 they are almost entirely pointless.

For every debuff/heal/power regen/stat buff an HO offers a group member can offer the same.

[ForceUs]

Yes, but the HO expends less power to produce the same effects.