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Old 01-20-2005, 01:59 PM   #1
icetower

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So, I'm a 28 mystic and every single time I group with a monk they say "lets find a tank"I say "I thought all fighter archetypes are supposed to fill the same role"Usually at this point someone else in the group will giggle and continue looking for a tank.This is far from an isolated experience. Am I just unlucky or do monks suffer from the worst case of EQ1 hangover ever.This is very annoying, since "aparrently" monk is the best tank for shaman to heal, not that I've ever had the opportunity to find out.Please explain someone.....
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Old 01-20-2005, 02:09 PM   #2
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hello Icetower,
 
Im a level 31 monk, and i have been tanking for my constant group from level 12. I have no problem tanking at all. Yes sometimes, i get some really bad damage spikes. But all in all, im usually not getting hit that often.
 
From what you have said, it sounds like the monks you might have grouped with have had some bad encounters as tanks, and now think they cant tank. Or still think monks cant tank at all in Everquest 1.  I group with a warden myself. I like wardens because of their agility buffs. But it is true that monks best go with shamans.
 
I have only grouped a few times with a shaman and i tank even better with them as a combo.
 
My advice is just to try and see if you can get him to tank just a couple of easy mobs, and see how you guys go, and start moving up a little into some harder stuff. Sorry it might not be the best advice. But thats all i can think of.
 
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Old 01-20-2005, 05:32 PM   #3
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Mystic? Monk? That's a match made in heaven in my book. Get those wards up and watch the monk dodge away until you have to reapply them! Do make sure the monk has updated agi gear though.
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Old 01-20-2005, 05:37 PM   #4
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I'll admit when I was under level 24 I was insecure about tanking and thought of myself as DPS.  Then I started reading the Monk forums SMILEY
 
If others are like I was, they may be just playing the game without really understanding their character.  I was not paying attention to my AGI when I was a new Monk, thus it was relatively low and I had problems tanking.  At that time, plate class were the obvios tanks.
 
Now that I'm a Monk forum troll, I understand my class much better and tank just about anything.  Before I would just look for a ward healer, now I look for a ward healer and a bard for AGI buff;  with that combination Monks are unstoppable.
 
It's a sad truth that a small minority of players actually use the forums.  I think the number is less than 5%.  The forums are a fantastic resource.
 
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Old 01-20-2005, 07:43 PM   #5
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I'll concurr with the above posters.. I'm the regular tank for my regular group and have been for the last 4 lvls (25 monk currently). They all love me tanking because it is almost impossible to get aggro off of me and if someone happens to (usually because I'm slacking) I have it back in no time flat. Combo that has worked extermely well for us is mystic/warden and a cleric.. we can pretty much take on anything lvl 30 and below with me tanking (even though they are usually red to me). I've got my openning combo down to a science and only run into issues when I get stunned alot during the beginning of a fight. We don't have a full regular group so we usually have DPS coming in and out of our group always saying it seems.. hey we need to get a tank.. they rest of the group pretty much jumps them on the spot "We have a tank.. a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] good tank". And after an hour or so of fighting I've coverted another naysayer.Khar (25 Monk Mistmoore)
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Old 01-20-2005, 07:52 PM   #6
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Just to continue, I was in a gorup last night in one of the new instanced zones.  We had a Swash one level below me with a much higher AC.  It was a pick up group and we had a lower level healer (lvl 26).  It was extremely hard to find people to do the dungeon.
 
We asked the healer who HE woudl prefer to heal and he chose the Swash based on AC alone.  In any case, the Swash was taking a pounding and the healer was running out of mana on almost every encounter.  I asked the healer if he would mind if I gave it a try.  My AGI was buffed to around 131 (I've been as high as 170).  In nay case, I didn't take any hits and the healer was much happier SMILEY
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Old 01-20-2005, 08:24 PM   #7
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mmm, i've had people who've asked my ac and then said "blimey so we still need a tank!" A lot of people dont seem to understand we are avoidance not mitigation SMILEY
 
 
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Old 01-20-2005, 09:21 PM   #8
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I have found that the inability fot he monk to stay alive is due to the lack of healing.
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Old 01-20-2005, 09:30 PM   #9
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Last night I a 21 monk and a 24 warden soloed cob with little problem.  ya boy with him i has 120 agi.
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Old 01-20-2005, 09:49 PM   #10
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I leave up /roleplay so that people don't know I'm a monk. I prefer to have a guardian tank if possible... I off tank and do DPS, plus toss the odd mend in when necessary. I'm far more effective that way. I *can* MT but I don't like to. Let the tin can boys get the aggro.I'll pull support. SMILEY(BTW I have a guardian as well)
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Old 01-20-2005, 10:08 PM   #11
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I seem to tank all the time and do really well, it is solo that i get wasted on.  I have never grouped with a shaman type except in my low 20's,  allways seem to get clerics and furys.  Give me a fury anytime with the agility buff.  I do seem to have problems with orange con mobs though and will allways preffer plate guys do them as long as they are not very far bellow me in level.
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Old 01-20-2005, 11:26 PM   #12
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Remember that you get [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ty guardians and paladins that don't know how to taunt somtimes too.
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Old 01-20-2005, 11:42 PM   #13
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Icetower, I'd tank for your Mystic anytime. Shaman + Monk is a very nice combo.
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Old 01-21-2005, 12:39 AM   #14
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What happens alot is that some monks out there don't even know they can tank. Then when someone says, "Monks can tank like other fighters." They say, "Oh really? I'll try it." and they proceed to get the xxxx kicked out of them cause they don't know what to do....then never try to tank again.
 
When I turn into tanking monk, I have to totally switch gears from what I normally do as a dps. I go from being in a damage stance form and chaining all my high damage abilitys to being in a defensive form and hitting taunts, focus, face the mountain etc.. and hardly hitting the damage ones at all.
 
Unfortunately, when the informed monks out there try tanking and fail, they give the 5 other people in their groups a bad impression of monks as tanks.
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Old 01-21-2005, 12:44 AM   #15
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icetower wrote:
So, I'm a 28 mystic and every single time I group with a monk they say "lets find a tank"
I say "I thought all fighter archetypes are supposed to fill the same role"
Usually at this point someone else in the group will giggle and continue looking for a tank.
This is far from an isolated experience. Am I just unlucky or do monks suffer from the worst case of EQ1 hangover ever.
This is very annoying, since "aparrently" monk is the best tank for shaman to heal, not that I've ever had the opportunity to find out.
Please explain someone.....

You should also change your topic to "Some Monks don't like to tank" rather than what you have.

Not all players who play fighters like to tank and rather play a bit more casual or with less intensity.  I have a friend (Pali) that doesn't like to tank simply becuase he has kids and can't afford the concentration.  You also have to consider young kids playing Monks who may feel intimidated to manage a group encounter and are not yet ready for the tanking responsability. I've met players anywhere from 12 up to 55 that play this game.

As for me, some days I love tanking, others I don't. 

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Old 01-21-2005, 12:53 AM   #16
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I thought we were CC?!
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Old 01-21-2005, 01:01 AM   #17
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Thats what I like about playing a monk.  In EQ1 I was a warrior.  I was ALWAYS the tank.  That can get old after awhile.  Playing the monk in EQ2 its all how im feeling that day.  If Im feeling like a tank I can tell the group, "Guys, you dont need a tank .. IM A FREAKING TANK" 
 
or
 
Its a day where I dont feel like a tank "Guys, you might want that Gaurdian... These mobs are a little tough for a monk"  =)
 
You can play it off any way you like.  Gives me some flexiblity and more fun in game
 
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Old 01-21-2005, 07:41 PM   #18
icetower

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Alarr wrote:

icetower wrote:
So, I'm a 28 mystic and every single time I group with a monk they say "lets find a tank"
I say "I thought all fighter archetypes are supposed to fill the same role"
Usually at this point someone else in the group will giggle and continue looking for a tank.
This is far from an isolated experience. Am I just unlucky or do monks suffer from the worst case of EQ1 hangover ever.
This is very annoying, since "aparrently" monk is the best tank for shaman to heal, not that I've ever had the opportunity to find out.
Please explain someone.....

You should also change your topic to "Some Monks don't like to tank" rather than what you have.

Not all players who play fighters like to tank and rather play a bit more casual or with less intensity. I have a friend (Pali) that doesn't like to tank simply becuase he has kids and can't afford the concentration. You also have to consider young kids playing Monks who may feel intimidated to manage a group encounter and are not yet ready for the tanking responsability. I've met players anywhere from 12 up to 55 that play this game.

As for me, some days I love tanking, others I don't.


Some days I prefer to backup heal and toss in some dots and debuffs, but If there are no other healers around should I make the whole group wait till we find one?Maybe I should change my post to "It's true, Monks are the laziest class"Since we all know that is highly improbable, the issue is that these monks I have grouped with are not unwilling, they instead believe they are unable.I ask every monk I group with to have a try at tanking because if nothing else, I want to see how the avoidance tank does with wards. Gets pretty boring when every single MT seems to end up being mitigation type.It is interesting to see one poster in this thread mention he is the best at holding agro, because I keep hearing the exact opposite. When declining to MT, one of the common things they say is that they won't be able to hold agro like a "real" tank.
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Old 01-21-2005, 08:08 PM   #19
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The common theme I've seen with people saying that I can't tank is because of the AC issue. Once you get that beat into thier head of not being the most successful factor in tanking we move on. Look any class can suck if it is played by someone that doesn't want to try and learn thier abilities. That is why I regularly group with the same 3-4 people and pick up LFG folks to fill out the group. They already know me.. they already know how I fight and keep aggro. They also know how to play thier classes well and that the first 30-40% of the mobs life is mine and the scout DPS classes. I strive to keep decent equipment on and train up my skills to the highest level I can afford. Monks trying to keep aggro with Apr I skills deserve to suck. I've messed around with all kinds of combo's when playing to get the most power efficient aggro management. I group with a chanter because well I only have to worry about aggro management on one MOB, but if he is taking the night off I have another combo to handle multiple group MOBs (but I can't avoid the [Removed for Content] that doesn't assist me and gets aggro.. they die.. we take the debt.. and promptly kick them out if they continue). Here is the combo that has served me well tanking for the last 5 lvls:Pull with Focused Strike or daggersWhile running back hit a single taunt (one mob) or hand clap (multiple mobs) if in range otherwise just make it back to the groupNow my group is smart and doesn't try to buff me nuke the mob or do anything for the first 5-10 seconds (unless emergency.. which I call)Swooping Dragon opener (for some reason once I stick this I rarely loss aggro the rest of the fight.. DOT effect increases hate I believe)Flying KickThrust (now Tortoise) those 3 skills are bam bam right awayAfter that I evaluate the situation.. sometimes I toss in a group taunt for multiple mobs... if it is a single mob or group with the chanter handling mezzing well I drop a rapid strikes on the monster. Even if I get stunned early and someone takes aggro by the time this combo is done I already have it back and they might have been hit once or twice in the process. So if after that I'm still having aggro problems I drop my single person HO macro (one key pulls off single fighter HO) if I hit the HO.. great more dmg added to the aggro.. if not I'm still following it up with a taunt at the end that increases hate. I use this macro off and on throughout the fight to maintain good hate.After that I just let my skills do the work.. using kicks and dmg attacks whenever up.. tossing in a HO macro or group taunt to keep them wanting to spank me. Without fail this has served me and my group well for lvl after lvl. Low risk.. high rewards. I'm usually the lowest lvl in the group these days and still they swear by me MT'ing all night long. I have found that switching to a 2H weapon does make a slight difference with the riposte as has been stated before. Now don't get me wrong.. this isn't necessarily "fun".. I enjoy the action and managing a fight because I know the strengths and weaknesses of the group.. but it takes concentration to keep this up.. heck it takes that to play any class the right way. That is what I love about the game.. it isn't all button mashing. I trully feel drained after a session of tanking for 2-3 hours with non-stop pulling. Ask anyone that has grouped with me.. there is no chit chat.. downtime.. it is non-stop combat and tons of loot and experience in the process. I'll ask to take a break every once and awhile and switch to the less intensive DPS mode and have another tank.. I'll help him out and give him pointers if needed.. take the peel off mobs if he isn't managing aggro well enough. But usually it is because I'm just drained from tanking so much. I must say that I love it though.. nothing like being in the middle of the mud controlling the ebb and flow of the fight.Remember your other skills too:I mix up my Tranq Blessing and Stagger Stance on whoever is taking the most aggro.. I usually go with the following setup but I mix it up based on group dynamics (can help make up for subpar players)Tranq Blessing on the main healerStagger stance on the poor chanterMix in a Wis of Zep group buff during the fight (can't stress the huge amount of hate this can produce especially with multi mob groups) This is another good one to drop when running back during pull.Find out who you are lossing aggro to and compensate with the other buff type skills you get.. When push comes to shove you always have Rescue when in a massive pinch with someone about to die.. Macro a rescue and mend macro on them and you can very well save yourself from debt.Khar (25 Monk Mistmoore)

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Old 01-21-2005, 08:25 PM   #20
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The challenge with pick-up groups (like mentioned above) is familiarity.  You join/ start a gorup with 6 of possible 24 classes and the two most common anchor positions (tank/ healer). In some cases, YOU may know another classes strengths/ weaknesses better than the player playing that charater or others in a group. 
 
I remember grouping for the first time with a Dirge (I was lvl 20 or something) and the first time he used Evac I thought the zone had crashed.  This does not make me a Noob, but now I have a much better understanding of the value of having a player with Evac. As you play more and level up, you become more and more familiar with other classes and the benefit they bring to the group. 
 
Over level 30, most players are seasoned veterans.  Under 30, most pick-up groups do not communicate enough with eachother and/ or may have various levels of familiarity with maximizing the group.  A simple 5 minutes to plan out responsabilities goes a long way and is a lot more fun than assuming everyone will know what to do when "this" happens.
 
I'll get back on track with the topic of this thread... I woudl not expect all fighters to "want to tank" and there are many reasons for this.  Don't assume everyone wants to fullfill their designed role or may choose to play a different role in the group if their class is more dynamic.  I've been in groups with two Guardians and one was MT the other's response was "awesome I can do damage" rather than expend his mana on managing the mob.
 
I do see your point though, your frustration of looking for a tank when you already have one.  I would be surprised if a player turned down your invitation to "try" with some encouragement regardless of what figher class they are.
 
(ramble off, boring day at work)
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Old 01-21-2005, 08:36 PM   #21
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Monks can tank, but after playing a monk to 33 and a guardian to 21, I've decided that guardians tank more easily. Monks can do the job, but it requires more work: keep the mob in front of you, taunt constantly, etc. Guardians, on the other hand, can pull with a ranged taunt, grab agro with their group taunt, then hit Hold the Line, which is an auto-group-taunt. If a party member is getting tooled, monks can use Intervene if they have available concentration (rare - myself, I've usually got Swooping Crane and Tranquil Blessing going), but other than that all a monk can do in a fight is kill stuff. Guardians, on the other hand, have Sentinel, which has a chance to soak all incoming damage on a partymember, plus they have a buff that increases the parry and deflection of a partymember, plus they have Intervene, and I believe one more buff that interposes the guardian's shield between the mob and the partymember. These all stack. With their heavy armor damage mitigation, their extra hit points (Sta is the guardian's main stat), and all these group defense tools, guardians defend the party more easily than monks, and defending the weaker members is an important role of the tank. It makes sense that the guardian fills this role more easily, since they lack the monk's neat tricks (FD, wind walk) and damage output. Something's got to give.
 
I'm not saying monks suck as tanks. A well-played monk does just fine. It's just that guardians do the same job more easily - soaking damage, holding agro, defending partymembers - with more tools at their disposal to do the job. For the record though, I'd take a well-played monk as main tank over a poorly-played guardian, any day of the week. A well-played guardian, though....
 
In that case it just makes more sense to let the guardian MT and the monk do what he does best, grind damage.
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Old 01-21-2005, 08:37 PM   #22
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double post

Message Edited by ForceUser on 01-21-2005 07:37 AM

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Old 01-21-2005, 09:02 PM   #23
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Hmm, well, maybe the monk you had didn't think they can tank, or may not have focused on upgrading taunts/gear to be able to tank. I know myself personally I can tank well enough if I have a healer who is at least paying attention. Sure I'm probably not the ideal tank for a group, and most of the time I prefer to play a DPS role in the group, but if the groups MT leaves I've no problem stepping in to fill that role for a little while, or even the rest of the night if needed. Hell I've even been requested as the MT by a fury I've grouped with in the past over a Paladin that was 2 levels higher then me.The best group I've had to date was me a 21 monk as MT, 23 Troubadour, 22 Fury, 22 ranger, 23 Wizard, 22 Conjurer. We were rolling through yellow/orange double ups so fast that we had to take a break for a few minutes cause there just wasn't anything around. We did wind up getting one bad pull that wiped the group though, the fury fizzled on a heal and I went down like a rag doll.
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Old 01-21-2005, 10:32 PM   #24
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I've gotten to the point where I am tired of attempting to convince people Monks are tanks.  I was in a pick up group the other night that said they wanted to wait around for a tank. I advised them that I was a tank and we could go a head and start, and I was basicly "LOLed" by everyone in the group.  Now, this is the most extream example I have had, but it is pretty much what I have gone through personaly with pick up groups.  I don't even care anymore when in pick up groups, so long as we are getting xp, not dieing, and not standing around waiting for a "tank".
 
On the other hand,  I tank very well when I am alowed to.  This usally happens in guild groups or when I am duoing with my girlfriend, who is Shaman, the same level as me (26).  So, that is what I try to stick too.  I just hope it gets better down the road as people learn other classes better.
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Old 01-22-2005, 12:04 AM   #25
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I was in SH in a pickup group with my 20 (at the time) guardian in full plate/vanguard/AQ/tinkerhelm... there was a 23 monk that refused to tank since I was there.Hell, I have a monk too... and I can tank with him. /sigh
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Old 01-22-2005, 12:50 AM   #26
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Its all about being assertive.. I don't allow people to prejudge my ability.. I just say 'I am the tank, get ready for pull', and then begin fighting... usually people are busy oohing and ahhing over their exp bar (lets face it... a lot of 'tanks' suck just by virtue that they don't pull fast enough to max out group exp) to remember anything else.One last thing: Healers - stop wasing your power healing me after the fight! I eat food... i'll be at full life in 10 seconds or less lol.
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Old 01-22-2005, 12:57 AM   #27
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It's quite simple to see why people do this. A monk's tanking ability only develops as he levels. The higher the level, the easier the time he has. With this in mind it's clear to see why people who have only been monks for roughly 5 levels would have only bad experiences as past history and not want to tank. Being the highest level monk on the Crushbone server for the last 24 levels of my journey, I myself questioned my tanking ability around level 25. In no way did this require me to go to the forums and post that our class sucks however. Now, currently at 50, I've even tanked for some raids involving Lavastorm. Keep in mind this is over a 50 berserker and 2 48 guardians. Give it time, and you'll find that monks will increasingly become wanted and used for as a main tank. Enjoy.
 
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Old 01-22-2005, 12:57 AM   #28
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Lag and doubled. My apologies.
 
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Old 01-22-2005, 02:49 AM   #29
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icetower wrote:So, I'm a 28 mystic and every single time I group with a monk they say "lets find a tank"I say "I thought all fighter archetypes are supposed to fill the same role"Usually at this point someone else in the group will giggle and continue looking for a tank.This is far from an isolated experience. Am I just unlucky or do monks suffer from the worst case of EQ1 hangover ever.This is very annoying, since "aparrently" monk is the best tank for shaman to heal, not that I've ever had the opportunity to find out.Please explain someone.....
Alot of monks out there do suffer from the case of EQ1 hangover, thinking they're DPS and have a crappy defense table. But they're not taking into account deflection and probably just don't know how to handle a monk in EQ2. Don't get me wrong there are a ton of monks out there who are great tanks, and stick to their role, but theres also a good share out there that is convinced "we aren't tanks". I have a lvl 27 monk. I've played that monk as an MT since lvl 1, with a mystic healer. At lvl 27, they have no problems. They can duo yellow ^^ with out a hitch. One day when I was out duo'ing giants, a monk came up to me who was lvl 31 and said "I am told we are tanks. I've found this to not be true." When I told them I've been a MT since lvl 1, they ignored me. My advice to you is just keep looking for that monk who has the gumption to be a MT. Or better yet, take a monk who thinks they suck as a tank, and prove them wrong. The monk/mystic combo is one of the best ones I've seen. Its way different from EQ1, and in a very good way. So next time a monk joins your group and they say "lets find a tank!" You just say simply, "we already have one... now go out and pull weirdo!!"
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Old 01-22-2005, 07:43 AM   #30
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I have no problem with the assertion that monks can tank, but AGILITY monks do it much better.  I chose to be a strength-monk (mainly because the manual doesn't say much about it).  So I picked a barbarian.  It works out fine, but with my race/equipment - I'd rather do damage and use my Staggering Stance to add defense to the main tank.  Probably gimping myself but it's just a game - and only a moderately interesting game at times :smileyhappy:
 
I solo mainly though - and I think the higher DPS is better for that.
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