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Old 01-08-2005, 06:51 AM   #1
Brew01

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This post is to ask all the other monks out there to work together changing our status as a DPS ONLY class.
 
I'm by no means the best monk out there I don't have the greatest gear and sometimes I forget to use my agi boosters to help tank. How ever I love tanking as a monk and I'm working really hard to get monks out of the constant role of being only dps. I tank whenever I can my reasons for joining this class are simple our tank style is unique and gracefull unlike the plate tanks style of slugish and stright forward. I played an SK to almost end game of EQ1 I had lots of fun being the underdog tank perhaps this is another reason why I picked monk.
 
Now that I've told you a history of why I'm a monk let me tell the community what happened earlier. I offered to tag along with a higher lvl monk i'm lvl 28 he is lvl 31 in killing the orcs for zek access. I noticed he was in one of the higher lvl guilds with pretty nice gear. So I desided to ask if he has tanked since the new patch. His response was up seting. "I don't tank". Immidatly I ask why not we are great tanks in fact I at lvl 27 was tanking clay guardians red^^ in varsoons with only one cleric. (On a side note it was the first time the cleric had a monk tank and the group worked out great with little down time. I hope I was able to prove something for all us monks as far as tanking goes.) He eventually laughed at me and called me a newbish monk because I was only lvl 28 and that later in game we can't tank for crap compared to plate types. In fact he said the higher we got the worse the gap was. I won't go into the whole conversation since it ended up being about 5mins of pointless arguing.
 
What I hope to get out of this post is a way of reaching all the other monks with this mentality to please keep these types of thoughts to yourself and friends. Its bad enough we have 95% of this game thinking we can't tank but to have my fellow monk tell me we can't really upsets me. As it is now I never get asked to tank I have to make my own grps just so I can MT.  Having other monks feeding the healers this crap will just make that fact multiply. I have no problem being DPS I have no problem that some monks don't want to tank. All I'm asking is that if your a monk that doesn't believe in our abilities as a tank don't ruin it for the rest of us that enjoy tanking. Just tell your group you don't like tanking and would rather be dps don't say Nope monks can't tank sorry must find a plate class.
 
Thanks for reading and I hope we as monks can work together on this issue.
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Old 01-08-2005, 08:53 AM   #2
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There are several responses you'll get from this.  The "we are tanks" response, and the "I totally agree" response.  I'll go for the middle road.  We are tanks, but we are not and should not tank as well as plate class (IMHO).  Guardians have little DPS and if we tanked as well as they did Guardians (and other plate class players) would be out of a job.   Why would anyone choose a Guardian as a tank if Monks were just as good and delivered damage? We are tanks, we are not the best option for higher level mobs, but we are good and deliver decent damage.  I havn't done much grouping since the patch but before patch Monks were the best choice for lower level mobs (Con Green and Con Blue) and anything that conned higher we were not the best choice if other options were available.   I'm not against what you are trying to do, but I do not expect SOE to make Monk into an Uber class making other classes obsolete. 
 
Rigth now groups are simple, look for tank, healer and 4 others.  If groups became more sophisticated they would understand that ALL SIX positions in a gorup are important and the Monk fits in nicely in a variety of scenarios.  How so?  MT for lower level mobs, with FD (and spirit) we can save the trip to recover shards if group wipe, we can peel, we deliver damage, if healer is out of mana hit face the mountain and take agro while the MT regens out of red etc, etc, etc....
 
I don't want to discourage your efforts, but we really do have an important job, we really are extremely valuable. I would put more effort into educating players to focus less on simple group forming (looking for tank/ healer PST) to take more time to plan a killer group that can kick some serious toon, maximize XP, minimize group wipe and debt and  where everyoe has a role other than punching buttons. To me, its much more fun that way. An extra 10 minutes of planning group roles goes much futher with XP than just "pick up and go".

Message Edited by Alarr on 01-07-2005 07:54 PM

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Old 01-08-2005, 08:24 PM   #3
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On my server it seems to be getting better. Alot more people think I can tank. They dont think I am the best tank in all situations, but they know I can do it. Just the other day I was tanking nightbloods in RV at level 39. The biggest problem with a monk tanking I find is adds. I can tank one encounter just fine, but I find if we get adds I die alot faster then a plate class.
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Old 01-08-2005, 08:37 PM   #4
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Hmm, I'm curious. I'm on Blackburrow too, and I had a 31 monk in my group tell me the same thing. I wonder if it was the same person?We had three monks in our group while in EL, and even the other monks were oocing for a tank.Very sad.
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Old 01-08-2005, 08:38 PM   #5
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you need to get add in front of you, you cannot block what you cannot see grass hoppa.
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Old 01-08-2005, 10:33 PM   #6
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yes I know, but when you have groups of more then 2 its impossible to keep them all in front of you.
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Old 01-08-2005, 11:23 PM   #7
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It takes a little situating but in most cases you can get the mobs in an arc in front of you.  Just don't let them get beyond 90 degrees on either side and you'll be able to tank multi-mob groups just fine.  If I get a group and a couple are behind me I will actually move behind the mobs that *were* in front of me (turning myself around of course) and this puts them all in front of me.  Do this at the beginning of the fight so the other melee's can get behind the mobs without having to move again.
 
As a side note, I took a lot of pride in my pulling abilities in EQ1.  To get the toughest pulls done right I drive my monk as if playing a FPS.  I think this experience helps me in tanking a lot.  I'm not scared to move around some to get a better angle in the fight.

Message Edited by Wintermoonx on 01-08-2005 10:26 AM

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Old 01-09-2005, 12:08 AM   #8
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Guardians can do as much damage as we can. Most of them choose not to.
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Old 01-09-2005, 12:31 AM   #9
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Alarr wrote:
There are several responses you'll get from this.  The "we are tanks" response, and the "I totally agree" response.  I'll go for the middle road.  We are tanks, but we are not and should not tank as well as plate class (IMHO).  Guardians have little DPS and if we tanked as well as they did Guardians (and other plate class players) would be out of a job.   Why would anyone choose a Guardian as a tank if Monks were just as good and delivered damage? We are tanks, we are not the best option for higher level mobs, but we are good and deliver decent damage.  I havn't done much grouping since the patch but before patch Monks were the best choice for lower level mobs (Con Green and Con Blue) and anything that conned higher we were not the best choice if other options were available.   I'm not against what you are trying to do, but I do not expect SOE to make Monk into an Uber class making other classes obsolete. 
 
Rigth now groups are simple, look for tank, healer and 4 others.  If groups became more sophisticated they would understand that ALL SIX positions in a gorup are important and the Monk fits in nicely in a variety of scenarios.  How so?  MT for lower level mobs, with FD (and spirit) we can save the trip to recover shards if group wipe, we can peel, we deliver damage, if healer is out of mana hit face the mountain and take agro while the MT regens out of red etc, etc, etc....
 
I don't want to discourage your efforts, but we really do have an important job, we really are extremely valuable. I would put more effort into educating players to focus less on simple group forming (looking for tank/ healer PST) to take more time to plan a killer group that can kick some serious toon, maximize XP, minimize group wipe and debt and  where everyoe has a role other than punching buttons. To me, its much more fun that way. An extra 10 minutes of planning group roles goes much futher with XP than just "pick up and go".

Message Edited by Alarr on 01-07-2005 07:54 PM


Please do not feed the misconception that monks can't tank higher cons as well as guardians/zerkers/pallys/sks because we can and I do all day.

If you choose to not be a tank that's your decision, I can appreciate the fact that not all monks want to be tanks, but please keep that opinion to yourself.

We are meant to be the main tank, that is how we are designed.  If a guardian can tank a red++ so can a monk, and just as well.

Plus as Coraz said most guardians can do DPS, they just choose not to, they save their power for taunting and defensive buffs (because unlike a lot of monks they've always played tanks and this is what they are used to -- in fact as a monk I do the same thing).

So while I appreciate your opinion, you are wrong on some points, especially when it comes to mob difficulty.

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Old 01-09-2005, 08:23 PM   #10
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I had this conversation with a guildie, a guardian char he said that for us to be able to tank equal to him we would have to
 
have the same ac. I told him that ac is not all that matters when it comes to tanking, esp not for a monk. Parry and agi is our
 
main concern. I hope you can agree on this but plz do tell me if im a little of:smileyhappy:
 
 
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Old 01-09-2005, 09:10 PM   #11
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Abdella:
Yes, AGI is our natural "tank" strength as Monks, but don't sacrifice other variables such as AC and others.
 
Gage and Abdell:
It is just an opinion that Guardians tank better than Monks but numbers are numbers.  I was in RoV for about 6 hours yesteday with a lvl 29 Guardian (I was lvl 28 at the time).  We had a nice camped spot for a while but we decided to wander and thus were basically not in as much control of our environment.  The Guardians AC was about 1700+ while mine was hovering around 1200 when in defensive mode.  My AGI was around 120 (buffed) while the Guardians was at a comparitive low of around 55.  With unexpected adds I peeled lvl 31 - 34 Clays ^ ^ or other grouped skele's.  We had two healers (one reactive one ward).  I was able to tank them just fine until the Guardian was able to grab agro.
 
However, in this case the Guardian was able to tank better.  Disclaimer: I don't remember the exact AC/ AGI but I'm close.  My point, a 500 point different in AC is worth more than a 65 point difference in AGI when comparing tanking ability.  So in this case, the Guardian was the better tank.  If his AC was 100 less and my AGI was buffed another 40 perhaps I would have been the better tank.  So the question is, at what point is the difference in AGI worth more than the difference in AC (let's not forget other skill factors)?  In my experience, the AC/ AGI ratio favors Guardians and other Plate classes and the reason behind my opinion that Guardians tank better (not all the time, not in all situations, but generally speaking). 
 
 
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Old 01-09-2005, 09:20 PM   #12
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Alarr wrote:
Abdella:
Yes, AGI is our natural "tank" strength as Monks, but don't sacrifice other variables such as AC and others.
Gage and Abdell:
It is just an opinion that Guardians tank better than Monks but numbers are numbers. I was in RoV for about 6 hours yesteday with a lvl 29 Guardian (I was lvl 28 at the time). We had a nice camped spot for a while but we decided to wander and thus were basically not in as much control of our environment. The Guardians AC was about 1700+ while mine was hovering around 1200 when in defensive mode. My AGI was around 120 (buffed) while the Guardians was at a comparitive low of around 55. With unexpected adds I peeled lvl 31 - 34 Clays ^ ^ or other grouped skele's. We had two healers (one reactive one ward). I was able to tank them just fine until the Guardian was able to grab agro.
However, in this case the Guardian was able to tank better. Disclaimer: I don't remember the exact AC/ AGI but I'm close. My point, a 500 point different in AC is worth more than a 65 point difference in AGI when comparing tanking ability. So in this case, the Guardian was the better tank. If his AC was 100 less and my AGI was buffed another 40 perhaps I would have been the better tank. So the question is, at what point is the difference in AGI worth more than the difference in AC (let's not forget other skill factors)? In my experience, the AC/ AGI ratio favors Guardians and other Plate classes and the reason behind my opinion that Guardians tank better (not all the time, not in all situations, but generally speaking).

Comparing your ability take dammage to someone who is higher level, is not a fair comparison.
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Old 01-09-2005, 09:46 PM   #13
Ala

 
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Mamaseeta wrote:


Alarr wrote:
Abdella:
Yes, AGI is our natural "tank" strength as Monks, but don't sacrifice other variables such as AC and others.
Gage and Abdell:
It is just an opinion that Guardians tank better than Monks but numbers are numbers. I was in RoV for about 6 hours yesteday with a lvl 29 Guardian (I was lvl 28 at the time). We had a nice camped spot for a while but we decided to wander and thus were basically not in as much control of our environment. The Guardians AC was about 1700+ while mine was hovering around 1200 when in defensive mode. My AGI was around 120 (buffed) while the Guardians was at a comparitive low of around 55. With unexpected adds I peeled lvl 31 - 34 Clays ^ ^ or other grouped skele's. We had two healers (one reactive one ward). I was able to tank them just fine until the Guardian was able to grab agro.
However, in this case the Guardian was able to tank better. Disclaimer: I don't remember the exact AC/ AGI but I'm close. My point, a 500 point different in AC is worth more than a 65 point difference in AGI when comparing tanking ability. So in this case, the Guardian was the better tank. If his AC was 100 less and my AGI was buffed another 40 perhaps I would have been the better tank. So the question is, at what point is the difference in AGI worth more than the difference in AC (let's not forget other skill factors)? In my experience, the AC/ AGI ratio favors Guardians and other Plate classes and the reason behind my opinion that Guardians tank better (not all the time, not in all situations, but generally speaking).






Comparing your ability take dammage to someone who is higher level, is not a fair comparison.


You are correct.  However, it does not change my argument about the AC/ AGI ratio.  Next time I group with a plate class player one level less or equal to me I'll take another look at the numbers and /log on.  I'm not stubborn if I find Monks can tank as well as Guardians at the same level (among other factors) I will come to this post first thing and post my observations.  I want to stress again that this is my opinion based on my expereince, not fact.  With so many numbers and variables its very difficult to determine if all fighters are designed to be equal tanks (assuming once designed players have decisions to make that affect their character).
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Old 01-09-2005, 10:11 PM   #14
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So much depends on what level you are and what mobs your fighting that I dont think its fair to compair tanks in a general sense.
 
In some situations a Guardian is a much better tank and in some situations a monk is the better choice. In the end either will do if you have good healers.
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Old 01-10-2005, 02:07 AM   #15
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Well when you get to my level there is a huge difference in AC - upwards of 1500~ + difference but the tanking ability stays the same; ie: if a guardian can tank it so can I.
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