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Old 10-24-2012, 07:14 PM   #1
KenCoop

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Only played around a little on beta so far, not quite 95 yet (will be nice to actually start getting loot now though).  I have to question the patch notes today though.  The right side with 3 ranks in the max hp debuff looked like a promising option, but that was reduced today, okay.

Now to me at least, Nightblade already looked much better than Carnage from a dps perspective, as those two are the ceterpoints for each line, but I could live with that for the tradeoff when looking at the max hp debuff.

Now you add on Nightblade's Intensity.  If we are now talking about a buff that I can time (wait wait for the last trigger by holding off an ambush or mini-chain or whatever) with my PFT chain to go off during my first ambush so that I get 25% Potency throughout my whole chain and FFU, that is awesome.

When I compare that to a seeminly crappy DD spell -- BloodFlurry (I mean - 18-30k base damage on a 13s recast doesn't really set the world on fire for an endline, my thinking at least) -- on the other endline, and what the CAs will hit for with that much Potency, I see no reason besides the max HP debuff (and the MA -> CB) to be drawn to the right line.  I would hope either that the right endline and Carnage were reworked/improved, or that the trees were unlocked so players could freely choose where to put their points (as the thread that was moved to adventure leveling seemed to indicate players would like). 

It would be nice to also get the Predator tree unlocked in the same fashion, but perhaps that is just wishful thinking on my part SMILEY.

Not that I said that much, but to sum up, left >>> right at this point, please look for more balance because the Potency from the revamped endling is gamechanging for Assassins, and Bloodflurry is seriously underwhelming.  It's a shame to waste that max hp debuff even though it was nerfed today.

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Old 10-25-2012, 11:28 AM   #2
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Assassins have too many max hp debuffs to begin with. The one in their EoF tree needs to be nerfed too, really.

Carnage line suffers from the same problem the Brigand's Poisoned Blades line does.

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Old 10-25-2012, 07:03 PM   #3
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balance is key.

 by taking the IPS side the assassin class becomes playable by just about anyone.   purist who like to keep some challenge in the class should be rewarded with better damage or you can just open up the second set of prestige abilities like it was suggested in another thread.

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Old 10-25-2012, 07:37 PM   #4
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Exactly! 

In the current incarnation, there is a gigantic disparity between the two trees simply based upon the endline.  When I look at what a PFT chain with an extra +25% Potency would do versus a 30k base direct damage CA, it seems as though the Devs are intending for everyone to go left.  If that's what they want fine, but really I don't think that's fair when they have a skill on the right side that will be valuable to a raid (even after nerf the max hp debuff it would be really valuable -- and we can certainly talk about the max hp debuffs we currently have, but that should likely be another thread regarding all of our AAs, which would undoubtedly be a very lengthy thread, as there are many outdated skills just taking up space to go along with a few of the better options currently available).

The damage bonus from one +25% pot gain PFT chain+FFU would likely outweigh all of the damage from right endline for an entire 5 min fight, and then from the left side you would also get the extra damage from another PFT (w or w/o Assassinate refresh) and 2 IPS chains.

To balance them, looking at the skills above, I would think the right endline would do something more like increase CB for 20% for 15sec or something along those lines after the stack of carnage (as it is proc'd, it couldn't be timed to start with an ambush on your conceal chain, so a bit less with a slightly longer duration would be equitable).

Just my feedback though, you are welcome to disagree.

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Old 11-02-2012, 08:55 PM   #5
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Yay, thanks for making the right line completely worthless (unless I am misreading the patch notes for today).  This was the only ability that was drawing me to that line.  Now there are relatively crappy endline DDs and a mediocore DoT plus grp proc similar to Killing Fury (granted not quite the same, but similar).  Compared to left side it seems seems weak, but maybe it is just me.  Actually I really see very little that excites me in the Assassin Prestige, the only saving grace thusfar is Caustic Weaponry.  I'll have to hop on beta this weekend to test it out, but it looks as though SoE made the decision for us not to go right, and the only question I'll have now is how the double conversion stacks up to the left side with those abilities unable to miss.

We didn't get the shaft as hard as Wizzys with the Fusion nerf today, but I am not impressed with our presitge compared to many of the other classes.

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Old 11-02-2012, 10:52 PM   #6
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I'd use right side if I were an assassin.

Speaking of right side, 3 points in Deep Wounds turns Carnage from a damage over time into a heal over time on the mob. Made me smile.

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Old 11-03-2012, 03:02 PM   #7
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Hi.

First off, I'd like to genuinely thank you guys for not giving us more hp debuffs.  That was the most ridiculous idea I've ever seen.  I didn't roll an assassin to debuff things and I feel like any furthur utility (debuff wise) is encroaching too far into the area of what rogues are supposed to do.

Second, I'd honestly really like to use some of your new abilities you're trying to give us, but as it stands right now, any usage of the bottom rows will pale in comparison to twin conversions.  You need to seriously consider fixing this by:

a.  making twin conversion impossible

b.  toning down conversions

c.  toning up the new things you're giving us.

d.  make twin conversions easier so there are still some points left over on the bottom (and some choices to make)

as it stands right now, i'm going to list out the average dps gained by some of these abilities, from a baseline parse of about 1.2 mil so everything i list here will be relative to my dps/gear

ips (direct assault) = 20k + ???

decap refresh = ???

pot conversion (around 50 pot in raids) = 75k

nightblade (base) = 25k

nightblade (acid blades) = 25k

nightblade (acid mist) = 15k + ??? for mulitple targets

nightblade (potency trick) = ???

bleedout = 40k (over gushing wound)

step refresh = ???

cb conversion (around 30cb in raids) = 75k

carnage = 30k

bloodflurry = 20k

top left = 100k+

top right = 100k+

bottom left = 50k+

bottom right = 50k+

shared toxin and caustic = 200k+

as you can see there's no legitimate reason to use any of the new stuff you've given us.  I'm not sure if you care about that or not, but I feel kinda odd getting new AA's and pretty much entirely not using them.

I haven't tested today's changes to the carnage area but I can only assume the goal was to bring the dps somewhere in line with Nightblade, which really doesn't change anything for me.  Assuming the lines are now balanced against each other top to bottom, which they arguably are, there's still no reason to use any of the new stuff.

Please consider some solutions.

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Old 11-03-2012, 07:10 PM   #8
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Right side definately got a good upgrade today.  Carnage is parsing better than bleedout and bloody flurry is right on spot with bleedout.  Carnage wrought doesnt seem all that great but havent had chance to see real numbers on it with a grp and a mob with significant health.  but double prestige does seem to be a lil bit more DPS but nothing greater than DPS between original right and left.  That being said people took the left side for its ease of use although slightly lower DPS now you can tak easier to use side which now has more DPS.  Although i would love to have a reason to use the new stuff im just glad we dont have as many problems as other classes who arent happy any way they go

- oh yeah carnage did like 4k HPS on the mob

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Old 11-03-2012, 07:18 PM   #9
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Still dont see how your getting such high numbers from caustic weaponry.  Without grp its only doing about 4% of my DPS on a 4 minute fight which would be deadly focus cast twice and honed reflexes once.  Also any ideas whether they stack  to make 100% or 2 seperate chances of 50% or should we stagger them?

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Old 11-04-2012, 06:40 PM   #10
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aside from the hp debuff and the potency conversion (25%) i don't see my self using much of the second set of prestige.  right now my assassin on beta is spec for double conversion as that's what does the greatest amount of damage. 

 the solution is to lock the top tree at 10 points then open both botom trees.

give the choise to take either right or left side then open up both top and bottom trees at 23 points spent.  

 once you choose one end lines the other locks out and you're left with one prestige to put anywhere you want. 

  imo the carnage side should be the pvp/heroic side and the other should be the raid side. 

 as far as the HP debuffs..  they powerful but i'm not all together sure i want them gone.   maybe move them to the raid side?

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Old 11-04-2012, 07:25 PM   #11
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HP debuff WAS nice, but now its been removed.

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Old 11-04-2012, 07:27 PM   #12
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Maybe you should keep up to date on the classes.  There is no extra HP debuff.  And how is the left side the raid side, its less DPS easier to play assassin for dummies side.  Only benefit left side had was it being easier to use.  Go post your seperate the prestiges comments in the forced prestige forum!

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Old 11-04-2012, 09:52 PM   #13
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lodgepark8485 wrote:

Maybe you should keep up to date on the classes.  There is no extra HP debuff.  And how is the left side the raid side, its less DPS easier to play assassin for dummies side.  Only benefit left side had was it being easier to use.  Go post your seperate the prestiges comments in the forced prestige forum!

maybe you should not worry about what i post about and where i post it, scrub.

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Old 11-04-2012, 09:55 PM   #14
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[email protected] wrote:

HP debuff WAS nice, but now its been removed.

 i agree and it's removal has more to do with "some" assassins not liking it not being on the side with IPS.   

   changes still fail.  devs need to boost damage conciderably to the carnage end line or free up the endlines.

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Old 11-04-2012, 09:55 PM   #15
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Let's not turn this into another left vs right thread. It's very well documented that the dps benefits are similar on both sides, via different means. From a top to bottom perspective, even without testing the last patch's updates to Carnage, I can tell you straight up that these two lines are going to parse about the same on dummies. You're welcome to argue about this, but please do so in another thread. In regards to HP debuffs. The ones we already have are too powerful when you consider the dps an assassin is capable of. We are not rogues. What displeases me is the obvious fact that the top area of prestige trees (for basically all scout dps) are vastly better than any of the new stuff we've been given, across the board. I posted previously before realizing there was an entire thread devoted to that in one of the other beta sections. I'd really like to see some changes either in the way prestige points can be arranged or in adjusting the enhancements added by the new prestige sets at the bottom. I only choose to post this in the assassin section because our class is the most clearly visible as there is, at this point, no real 'special' effects in either line aside from ips and shared toxin. You can flatly compare dps and find that spending your new prestige points on the new prestige items is going to be terrible by comparison to spending the new points on more of the old prestige items.

Big problem.  Please fix.

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Old 11-04-2012, 10:03 PM   #16
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i don't agree with you on the HP dbuff being for rouges since this class had them before rouges so lets just leave those as they are.  they don't actually make anyone hit harder, so  it's not encroaching into any class. 

 you can seriously tell me that the carnage end line is "about the same" as the 25% potency?   really? 

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Old 11-04-2012, 10:37 PM   #17
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the Carnage line IN GENERAL seems to compare evenly with the left.  You cant compare JUST endlines davngr. Bleedout, Carnage and Blood flurry are ALL parsing some good numbers that easily compare to a 12 second pot buff.  As for acid mist and what not i dont know the exact numbers but dont recall them parsing over bleedout.  That being said and agreed on neither side is greater than double prestige.  Simple way to look at it since everyone likes the left is endline vs conversion.  Would you rather a another CA and 12 second potency buff or passive (give or take) 25 CB and bleedout and SS refreshes.  And i dont agree either with changing something thats been in the game for as long as it has already. (hp debuff) although we definately DID NOT need more. 

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Old 11-04-2012, 11:01 PM   #18
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you need to compare each ability against it's counter part not the entire line because when you try to balance an entire line then you get the fail is happening now with the "forced prestige paths".

 bleed out vs. (IPS) easymode ffuchains = about equal depending on how you play the class

 assassinate refresh vs. SS refresh = about equal since one offers steady damage increase and the other offers huge spike damage potential.

 dps2potency vs. ma2critbonus = about equal since there is way more dps temp/constant buffs in raid than MA and the conversion rate favors dps.

carnage vs. acid mist = about equal depending on number of targets.  yes carnage will post higher numbers on a dummy but on a group of mobs?

  25% modifier for TOTAL potency vs. one CA with mediocre damage =    L O L       

  you can't give that CA enough damage to be in line with a raw percentage boost of that sort with out making it, out right broken.

  just open up both end lines so we can choose either one.

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Old 11-05-2012, 09:52 AM   #19
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Bleedout DOES NOT = IPS not in a million years

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Old 11-05-2012, 06:01 PM   #20
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I forgot to mention that bleedout shouldn't be modified by Cut Arteries the way it currently is. This amplifies bleedout damage by entirely too much as the AA was intended to modify the half a dozen or so ticks on Gushing Wound and not the 24 ticks on Bleedout. This contributes to double conversions being the superior spec. current: 123455555555555555555555 should be: 111122223333444455555555 or even: 111111111111111111112345 Secondly, please feel free to explain why a 10s temp of +100 potency (for me) is so much better than Bloodflurry, being that it isn't a simple button that you push and more times than not you're going to lose dps trying to time the effect with a stealth chain compared to just letting it happen when it happens. Also, assuming that it just 'happens when it happens' and that it is up 1/6 of the time, granting me around +16 potency nets around 18k extdps in raid (for me). Bloodflurry parses significantly better than that now. Lastly, using concealment vs ips isn't a matter of difficulty, it's a matter of stupidity. Stop calling yourself a purist and calling everyone else a noob because you're too shortsighted to realize the benefits. Or at least, take it to another thread.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:58 PM   #21
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Wow I would of more expected a comment like that from davngr not someone whos supposed to be a top teir player.  Never ever once on any forum have i claimed it to be a purist side or did i call anyone a noob.  Although i will say i think dav is pretty stupid. Ive played the game a nigh few months.  Im the noob!  But ive done math my whole life.  This + this= that! The game IS NOT very hard.   Why you want to get butt hurt when someone posts about numbers the right side have is beyond me.  I could care less who takes what side.  My opinion is my own.  Just like taking both conversions in this xpack is my opinion.  You would like to see left side greater because thats what u play n preach ur little heart over.  Im gonna spec what ever i feel works for me right left double it dont matter.  In my very own opinion the left side (IPS) is an easier to play side as in easier than the right side (concealment) which isnt even hard to play itself.  Maybe in YOUR opinion i went to far saying DPS for dummies side but thats how i talk and probily chose those words because of dav.  Dont read into it too much.  All that means is the right side is easy to parse well with and the left stupid easy to parse well with but i tend to get better numbers from the right. NOT "hey ripptx, i like the right side and think the left is easy, so that makes you a noob!"

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Old 11-05-2012, 08:19 PM   #22
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But another more this thread note ripptx lets discuss these changes they made yet again today...

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Old 11-05-2012, 09:00 PM   #23
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lodgepark8485 wrote:

Wow I would of more expected a comment like that from davngr not someone whos supposed to be a top teir player.  Never ever once on any forum have i claimed it to be a purist side or did i call anyone a noob.  Although i will say i think dav is pretty stupid. Ive played the game a nigh few months.  Im the noob!  But ive done math my whole life.  This + this= that! The game IS NOT very hard.   Why you want to get butt hurt when someone posts about numbers the right side have is beyond me.  I could care less who takes what side.  My opinion is my own.  Just like taking both conversions in this xpack is my opinion.  You would like to see left side greater because thats what u play n preach ur little heart over.  Im gonna spec what ever i feel works for me right left double it dont matter.  In my very own opinion the left side (IPS) is an easier to play side as in easier than the right side (concealment) which isnt even hard to play itself.  Maybe in YOUR opinion i went to far saying DPS for dummies side but thats how i talk and probily chose those words because of dav.  Dont read into it too much.  All that means is the right side is easy to parse well with and the left stupid easy to parse well with but i tend to get better numbers from the right. NOT "hey ripptx, i like the right side and think the left is easy, so that makes you a noob!"

  i won't flat out call you stupid because i don't know what you're capable of doing outside of game.  what i will do is call you a nub because you don't understand how this game works.   all you do is take your math and overlook HUGE factors that flip trite math on it's head.  it's called knowing the game, so you can effectively apply math. 

   so when i speak, you listen and learn, nub.

[email protected] wrote:

I forgot to mention that bleedout shouldn't be modified by Cut Arteries the way it currently is. This amplifies bleedout damage by entirely too much as the AA was intended to modify the half a dozen or so ticks on Gushing Wound and not the 24 ticks on Bleedout. This contributes to double conversions being the superior spec. current: 123455555555555555555555 should be: 111122223333444455555555 or even: 111111111111111111112345 Secondly, please feel free to explain why a 10s temp of +100 potency (for me) is so much better than Bloodflurry, being that it isn't a simple button that you push and more times than not you're going to lose dps trying to time the effect with a stealth chain compared to just letting it happen when it happens. Also, assuming that it just 'happens when it happens' and that it is up 1/6 of the time, granting me around +16 potency nets around 18k extdps in raid (for me). Bloodflurry parses significantly better than that now. Lastly, using concealment vs ips isn't a matter of difficulty, it's a matter of stupidity. Stop calling yourself a purist and calling everyone else a noob because you're too shortsighted to realize the benefits. Or at least, take it to another thread.

  come on ripp..  don't be a nub and stop trying to get the very class you raid nerfed ffs.   cut arteries is working as intended.  the same way that all my necro's and sk's dot's work.

  yes for the average noob assassin they are equal but for a min/max assassin 20% more potency on every other FFU chain is amazing.

lodgepark8485 wrote:

Bleedout DOES NOT = IPS not in a million years

  depending on your play style, content and group make up you can gain just as much from IPS as bleedout.   it won't be direct damage but having less of a chance to miss an auto attack and more full FFU chains is nothing to scuff at.

edit.

 seems the carnage side got a hefty boost and the potency side lost 5% so i guess i'll have to test this out.  

 still wish they would just open up the trees.

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Old 11-05-2012, 10:39 PM   #24
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Killed 15 solo dummies using only bleeds/bloodflurry: 306,270 total 160,087 slash 38,821 carnage 20,188 bleedout 14,074 bloodflurry 1,342 wrought note: i had killshot spec'd so the data is slightly skewed, but 'carnage wrought' is completely terrible. i would advise granting some auto modifier in the neighborhood of 4.5-7.5% with full points and full incremental gain, and scrap the deathblow proc. Killed 15 solo dummies using only nightblade/mask-ambush/short ffu chain (2 chains per mob): 277,952 total 158,568 slash 12,115 nightblade 8,011 acid blades 8,008 acid mist 4,575 direct assault notes: left side.. needs work now. also, just for clarity, going by tooltip: 21567 carnage (initial hits with full points) -- at capped reuse, 26 triggers/min (using any bleed) 17848 acidblade+acidmist (1 trigger) -- at capped reuse, 24 triggers/min (i think more like 22) I think an increase in the base damage of nightblade, acid blade, or direct assault, or possibly changing direct assault to area damage, would be warranted to finish balancing.
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:54 PM   #25
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also, what is with the caustic weaponry change? it needed the proc rate reduced, not the damage. ??????

ps: twin conversions still miles better than either end row

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Old 11-06-2012, 03:42 AM   #26
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Double Conversion SHOULD be a viable option, imo.  3 viable choices is better than 2.

The endlines just need to be boosted to match to match the dps potential of going split down both sides. I DONT want to see anything nerfed because double conversion seems like a nice way to go. But our endlines are still pretty unimpressive and those are what needs to be boosted to make them a viable alternative to going down both sides halfway.

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Old 11-06-2012, 04:45 AM   #27
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Well our new prestige started out pretty nice (a little OP perhaps--admittedly), but it seems they have nerfed just about every aspect of it at this point (except for carnage, which was never really that great to begin with).  I've gone from being very optimistic about the xpac to now just hoping we do get to keep the double conversions, as neither line really seems to stack up to the orinigal two prestige lines combined.  

They seem to be modifying many of the other classes prestige lines, but even if the bumped up damage significantly I don't see many assassins passing on 2 refreshes, ips and bleedout and the double conversions.  It's seems sad to me, because the devs obviously spent some time developing the prestige trees, but I have to wonder how much thought they put into ours because it really seems like both lines fall far short of some of the other classes.  To be getting an expansion, and be hoping that I'll just be able to use what is already available pre-expansion seems somewhat depressing.

If carnage was modified to stack CB per increment, or the end line granted some cb temp (that you could save up and click to use) or ae avoid (to stay in on a joust) or really anything unique that would make me much more excited.

As it is we get a renamed Bruiser CA for the end line (isn't it basically one hundred hand punch???...lol).  That just seems really disappointing for an end line we are supposed to be "striving" for.  The left end line was more interesting, but that even got nerfed today...and it didn't even begin to compete with the always on bonus to CB you would get by splitting and not going pure left.

Overall, just disappointed so far in the Assassin prestige.  Wasnt when beta launched, just didn't like the right end line.  Still don't like the right end line, and after removing the hp debuff really don't like the tree either

, so I would vote for the double conversion as Gash said right above me.

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Old 11-06-2012, 01:55 PM   #28
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I can just see it now.  Rangers will have a HUGE fit if they see carnage wrought get improved too much to where it really useful.

As for imporvements on the left side.  Anything BUT direct assault should be improved.  They need to improve the new left stuff not the old as it would only make double conversions better.

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Old 11-07-2012, 12:21 AM   #29
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I meant adding a change to direct assault using the new prestige abilities, but you're right, it doesn't make sense to be done that way. today's update: acidmist now inflicts twice the damage as acidblades. this is another good change. could we add a 33% native damage increase to Nightblade per point spent in 'double coating' -- this item was removed to make room for the new potency trick at the endline and I feel like it shouldn't have been. -- double conversions still alot better.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:29 PM   #30
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Almost seems like SoE is leaning towards right being single target and left being AE.  Making it like most everyother dps classes Sides.

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