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Old 05-16-2012, 02:22 AM   #1
Mermut

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I just noticed today that items have an 'item score'.. but only when you actually examine them. It doesn't show up when you dwell on an item in your inventory...

Is this intended? It didn't show up anywhere in any patch notes.

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Old 05-16-2012, 04:38 AM   #2
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I just noticed this too.

If its intended it needs tweaking... Actually scrap that, if its intended, remove it.

We already got a "item score" called Crit Chance. We dont need some stupid WOW crap like Item Score.

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Old 05-16-2012, 05:08 AM   #3
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I'm betting it's supposed to be internal only and someone slipped up and made it live.

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Old 05-16-2012, 05:26 AM   #4
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I thought we just got rid of some kind of score on gear? We back for another go round of itemization confusion?

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Old 05-16-2012, 09:22 AM   #5
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Krilinye wrote:

I just noticed this too.

If its intended it needs tweaking... Actually scrap that, if its intended, remove it.

We already got a "item score" called Crit Chance. We dont need some stupid WOW crap like Item Score.

It obviously already exists so what is the problem with having it displayed?

I think it is a superb idea that can only help people understand better how items stack up. People who don't care to delve further won't, people who do will be able to look at gear and better understand how Lootsript9000 points out stats.

One thing I already noticed is that resists are valued much more than I thought they would be.

For example, compare the item score of

http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/2920566995

to

http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/2367061501

Not that it makes much difference at all since resists seem to scale with the "tier," pretty much corellates to the other stats generated via LootScript9000, and so the choices are limited to non-existant in regards to comparing other stats independent of resists when choosing a piece of gear.

However, I am hoping that some subtleties will be uncovered now that we can see the score.

Plus...I am hopeful they will start to use the score in building groups and determining zones within the DF. They made one good decision with the 280+ AA to level decision and it has worked out well for grouping. I hope they can follow that up with the revival of the DF to be a usuable means of grouping for earlier content.

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Old 05-16-2012, 09:59 AM   #6
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They tried to do this for Destiny of Velious and people hated it so much in beta that it was scrapped. I'd like to say that someone pushed the wrong key and it got unhidden again (and I'm sure that's what will be claimed), but I'm guessing someone wanted to test out how much the forums would /rage about it again.

Here's one of the many arguments over it back in January of last year: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=494418 (I don't suggest necro'ing the thread)

Feldon also had a couple of articles over it: http://eq2wire.com/2011/02/16/gu59-...zation-changes/ and http://eq2wire.com/2011/02/01/would...t-how-you-play/

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Old 05-16-2012, 12:39 PM   #7
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Please ignore the cry-babies and fully expose the item score.  Roll it up so I can see it on inspect as well.

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Old 05-16-2012, 02:07 PM   #8
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Sorry Atan, but this was a bug. The value is not very useful, at this time, as it is a "work in progress" thing and it is a bug that it is showing in the examine of items. This will be fixed with tomorrow's hotfix. 

As for if we should finish up this stat and have it show or not? I'll leave that to you guys to discuss. I would be really interested in hearing what you guys have to say about it.

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Old 05-16-2012, 02:28 PM   #9
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Maevianiu wrote:

Sorry Atan, but this was a bug. The value is not very useful, at this time, as it is a "work in progress" thing and it is a bug that it is showing in the examine of items. This will be fixed with tomorrow's hotfix. 

As for if we should finish up this stat and have it show or not? I'll leave that to you guys to discuss. I would be really interested in hearing what you guys have to say about it.

Wouldn't it be better to leave it in, "not very useful" or not, list what you think the shortcomings are, and get feedback.

What harm is done by leaving this in? If it was sooo bad that it would cause people to make improper gear choices then I could understand. But, as far as I can tell, it seems fairly accurate.

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Old 05-16-2012, 02:39 PM   #10
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Maevianiu wrote:

Sorry Atan, but this was a bug. The value is not very useful, at this time, as it is a "work in progress" thing and it is a bug that it is showing in the examine of items. This will be fixed with tomorrow's hotfix. 

As for if we should finish up this stat and have it show or not? I'll leave that to you guys to discuss. I would be really interested in hearing what you guys have to say about it.

I figured it was a bug SMILEY

Shoud it show or not?

The thing is players are going to use something to score other players.  Some sort of score will be used to determine if they are sufficient to group up for activity X. 

It is my opinion that you should move forward with itemscore, as it allows you as game developers to set/bias what is used to score players.  I would also state, that you need to then also provide a recomended min gear score for zones / raids. 

The issue is, if you provide the score without 'the bar' then players will set their own bar.  Certainly they may do this anyway, but by you providing a recommended bar, your atleast strongly biasing the player perception of what is recommended.  Without you setting the bar, players will always over-set it.

The other reason I want to see itemscore, as it shows me where you planned for a zone/reward to fall in the overall progression of difficulty.  For example setting HM Kael to the same score as some random trash drop off of a Skyshrine heroic zone.

You have the opportunity to provide players with a score and bar for them to use, or you have the opportunity to be idle and not influence gameplay.  I feel making the influence overall helps your game verses leaving it up to the players to set their own standards.  Players will always set standards far over the zone requirements from their desire to make things as easy as possible vs what is really a recommended build for that content.  SoE being involved in my opinion will only contribute a downward force on  the min requirements players use to form groups with.

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Old 05-16-2012, 03:16 PM   #11
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^^^ I agree with Atan whole heartedly.

The player base will always project their opinion of "what it takes" to do a zone.  The Crit Mit that was present a the launch of DOV, whether welcomed or not, whether too high initially or not, was present telling players what the zones expectations were and that allowed the players to understand how to apporach those zones.  Whether it was a good idea or a gating mechanic or what have you, it cannot be argueed that it was not informative and well understood what its requirements were.  How a player attained those goals was up to them or whether they felt gated or not due to thier personal level of understanding or effort of participation in game play was entirely a known entity.

When CM was removed, the player based instanly accepted Critical Chance as the new measurement.  Whether CC is or is not a good stat to use as a measurement is not the point, the point is the will ALWAYS be a measurement that applies to people to ensure a chance at success.  CC was just the next best thing to give an indication of gear level, gear level a.k.a. gear score.  The simple fact is that with CM the measurement was inplace and managed by SOE, the game developers, and now without CM the community has placed that measurement on CC which is not being controled by the game developers and in being set by the player base it will most assuredly be set higher than necessary.

...

We all know there is gear score on gear.  It is how the developers "cost" gear stats.  Common discussion about whether a particular item can "afford" a certain stat or not is purely based on the items gear score, whether of not it is called that or just associalted to the level of the zone or the difficulty of the mob, but it is certainly the bases of what Gear Score is defined as.

...

So when players are all elitist-jerks and stuff, I think there are two levels in such that there is a minimum for success and there is a maximum for pwnage.  If you leave it to the players, the ones leaning toawrds the pwnage will out weight the ones looking for balance and / or guidance.

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Old 05-16-2012, 03:17 PM   #12
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Plus you can use it to match players strengths in that thing you call a Dungeon Finder, like it should have been from the start.

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Old 05-16-2012, 03:18 PM   #13
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Some of its definitely wacky though. Hard Mode Drunder gear with almost double the internal gear score of easy skyshrine for example, even though skyshrine gear is better.

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Old 05-16-2012, 03:30 PM   #14
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[email protected] wrote:

Some of its definitely wacky though. Hard Mode Drunder gear with almost double the internal gear score of easy skyshrine for example, even though skyshrine gear is better.

That we can guess is the "work in progress".  The one thing about gear socre that will hurt is that it is visible making the player base be aware of it and evaluating it.  So, when things are screwy they will be pointed out.  However, it should be far easier for the developers to pre-determine the level of a zone and the gear it drops within well ahead of development and make the progression line clear.

Should EM Sky gear be better than HM Drunder?  I don't know the answer to that, but it is a good place to take about progression.  If HM Drunder has lower gear (gear score) than EM Sky then the Devs are saying, clearly, that HM Drunder is easier to progress thru than EM Sky.... But it also lets the Dev's clearly see if their vision of progression is being fulfilled.  Without it they are throwing darts at the Stat board.

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Old 05-16-2012, 04:49 PM   #15
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Maevianiu wrote:

Sorry Atan, but this was a bug. The value is not very useful, at this time, as it is a "work in progress" thing and it is a bug that it is showing in the examine of items. This will be fixed with tomorrow's hotfix. 

As for if we should finish up this stat and have it show or not? I'll leave that to you guys to discuss. I would be really interested in hearing what you guys have to say about it.

I find a couple of things comical about this. It was SF (I believe) that first introduced Gear Score, but I am certain it has been introduced before. Maybe it didn't make it off test, I can't recall exactly, but I know for a fact that gear score was attempted in the past. So I guess when you say it's a work in progress, you must mean that currently whatever system worked when it was initially tried to be pushed on us does not work with the massively inflated gear stats we have now. This is not a worthwhile system what so ever. I mean, you'd have to put a total gear score in the inspect window for it to work.

The second thing is you'd ask for what people think of it: They don't like it, at least the majority don't. I tried searching for the old posts about it but apparently can't search for posts that far back. If you can find them you'll find pages of people complaning about gear score, and a few posts here and there supporting it.

The thing is, your gear already has gear score on it, it's called Stamina. If you have under 40k health your gear sucks. If you have Over 50k health you're doing better. We don't need gear score, but it doesn't matter if it's there. When I invite someone to my group and they are in their GH still and I see 29k hp, I know I just made a mistake. When I get a mage with 59k hp I know I just hit a winner.

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Old 05-16-2012, 05:02 PM   #16
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[email protected] wrote:

The second thing is you'd ask for what people think of it: They don't like it, at least the majority don't. I tried searching for the old posts about it but apparently can't search for posts that far back. If you can find them you'll find pages of people complaning about gear score, and a few posts here and there supporting it.

You can't find it cause it was during a beta and you can't see the beta forums anymore.

The whiners did win, but I think adding it actually helps developers make more influence in how the game is played for the reasons I spelled out in my post.  This in my opinion is one of those times where listening to the community is the wrong thing to do.

People don't like it cause its copying WoW.  I hate when people oppose something just cause its already been done in another game.  Can you imagine what cars would be like if different manufactures didn't adopt good ideas from competitors?

People don't like it cause it allows them to be judged before they can display their ability.  This is a moot argument, cause as you stated, we can already do that with other things.

Again, my argument that by the developers exposing a scored and them publishing what scores are recommended for which content will actually result in a better game than the status quot.

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Old 05-16-2012, 05:19 PM   #17
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I personallly think that an Item Score system should move forward, so long as it is only on a per item basis and not tallyed up anywhere. If you total up the itemscore of everything that someone is wearing and present it as a gearscore it presents some challenges.

Taken by itslef, a properly impleted Item Score system can be used as a tool for decisions by the player(eg: deciding whether an item is an upgrade over something you are wearing).  In far too many games that implement total scores, that total score number becomes misused by players.

An item score boils down an item to show it's raw relative strength and allows for comparrisons to other similar items.  This is a number that needs to be interpreted by the player, it has no meaning otherwise.

Considering gearscores: as a raw relative value of strength it does not take into account player skill.  People can outplay their gear because they are really good players/in the zone/etc, or they can underplay their gear because they are having a bad day/don't know how to play/are on medication/etc... and then just rely upon their gear to be able to get through content.

As mentioned earlier: players will use *something* to compare to others, be it crit chance, stamina, primary stat,etc..  If you have a mage with 59k health, he can either have really good gear, or he could have focused exclusivley on life to the detriment of other stats(maybe he has trouble learning how to avoid aoe's and needs the life to survive?). A gear score system/stamina/etc would not take any other context reasons into account, meaning the number cannot stand on it's own. So while players will use something, I don't think another system should be added that may be misued.

Individual item scores would be great however; once the formula is tweaked to properly account for all stats/etc and let you know how items compare against each other.

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Old 05-17-2012, 03:43 AM   #18
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While we could see it I used the score to decide on an upgrade , similar items , small range of different blue stats...one was 15 points higher in score...so I took the upgrade.

Useful as long as only YOU can see the item score of the items you are wearing.

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Old 05-17-2012, 02:22 PM   #19
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If you so badly need some way to globally evaluate the "worth" of an item, go to any vendor and see how much he pays for it.  That's a pretty similar scale I suspect.

Do we need yet another number added to the already overcrowded examine window?  In my opinion, no.  Too many persons who find it too complicated to actually evaluate each stats separately would start making all their decisions solely based on that score, which would lead to even more wrong decisions.  Both from people gearing up, and from people evaluating other players when forming up a group/raid.   So, I don't think the score would help people make better decisions.  It's not helpful.  A higher score determines a higher value, NOT a higher usefulness for you specifically.  If you are capped on a given stats, a higher score that brings more of that capped stat, but less on another stat where you aren't capped would be a downgrade.  So no, a global score wouldn't be a good shortcut for evaluating.

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Old 05-17-2012, 02:28 PM   #20
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[email protected] wrote:

Taken by itslef, a properly impleted Item Score system can be used as a tool for decisions by the player(eg: deciding whether an item is an upgrade over something you are wearing).  In far too many games that implement total scores, that total score number becomes misused by players.

I don't want to be rude, but to me, and others I'm sure, that clearly states "I am not smart enough to tell if this item is an upgrade or not, please give me an item score rating to help me figure it out."

TBH, I miss a time when two peices of gear had vastly different stats but equal strength and you had to decide what you wanted. Gear upgrades now are so incredibley boring, oh look, 12 more base stats and .6 more pot/cb. Must be an upgrade.... Current itemization is not fun in the slightest, nor does it require gear score to figure out if an item is better.

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Do we need yet another number added to the already overcrowded examine window?  In my opinion, no.

QFE

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Old 05-17-2012, 06:11 PM   #21
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[email protected] wrote:

TBH, I miss a time when two peices of gear had vastly different stats but equal strength and you had to decide what you wanted.

In those days, too, gear might be better for one class but not another (for example wizard vs coercer or dirge vs ranger or whatever) even though both could benefit to some extent. That, too, has gotten flattened a lot with the single stat + sta and same-ole-same-ole blue stats.

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Old 05-17-2012, 06:49 PM   #22
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Personally I would like to be able to see item score on my own gear.It is a guide to finding the gear slots most in need of upgrades, even though it is not the ultimate clue to it.

I could not care less about seeing other peoples gear. I find it intirely distasteful to go over a persons gear and AAs to find out if they are "worthy" to group with. 

I would instead prefer that the game itself has some sort of reasonable gating system to more difficult content - like 280 AAs required to get into the prestige levels, or in some cases itemscore/AA/access quests requirements, that shows the toon meets bare minimum needed to beat the next tier of content if they are just bellow average skills.

A game made gating would be less restricted on required itemscore than a playermade one, imho.

WoW pretty much showed this. Some people who just barely got through the itemlvl requirements still could not tank/heal/dps worth *smurf* unless everyone else was well above to smooth it out for a successfull run, but it was acceptable, because at least there was some sort of minimum requirement to lower the risk of failure, without totally removing the risk. A tank that fail at caring for his toon and still queue up for a dungeon where trash one shots him is an abysmal sight, especially if there is 50 more trash pulls in the dungeon and 5 bosses.

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Old 05-17-2012, 07:01 PM   #23
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While we are at the noob'R'me for determing gear upgrades, I would absolutely LOVE to see the stats with caps on my char window, so over capped blue stats are more visual. 

Last week I tried to figure out if my ranger needed more attack speed. All I found was that 200 was the cap - on some presumable outdated reference page - so with her 246 I had overdone it. A 246/200 on the char window would have helped me not spend a freaking lot of time looking up outdated sites to find out how much weight for which class to put in which blue stats. At least having a visible cap would be nice, making stat weight the important part.

If this game had more active community fanpages it might not be needed, but it is a really unfriendly system right now, since finding guidance elsewhere is next to impossible.

Combat mechanics and blue stat list was the reference I let myself be guided from -- after checking 3 fansites including eq2flames -- crit mit is still listed, so I assumed it to be outdated but hopefully valid about attack speed.

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Old 05-17-2012, 08:23 PM   #24
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SiegaPlays wrote:

While we are at the noob'R'me for determing gear upgrades, I would absolutely LOVE to see the stats with caps on my char window, so over capped blue stats are more visual. 

Last week I tried to figure out if my ranger needed more attack speed. All I found was that 200 was the cap - on some presumable outdated reference page - so with her 246 I had overdone it. A 246/200 on the char window would have helped me not spend a freaking lot of time looking up outdated sites to find out how much weight for which class to put in which blue stats. At least having a visible cap would be nice, making stat weight the important part.

If this game had more active community fanpages it might not be needed, but it is a really unfriendly system right now, since finding guidance elsewhere is next to impossible.

Combat mechanics and blue stat list was the reference I let myself be guided from -- after checking 3 fansites including eq2flames -- crit mit is still listed, so I assumed it to be outdated but hopefully valid about attack speed.

As far as attack speed goes.. 200 is the 'cap' for attack speed making you attack faster, but 'over cap' attack speed gets turned into flurry, so it's worth having 'extra' attack speed

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Old 05-17-2012, 08:28 PM   #25
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Mermut wrote:

As far as attack speed goes.. 200 is the 'cap' for attack speed making you attack faster, but 'over cap' attack speed gets turned into flurry, so it's worth having 'extra' attack speed

Ahh, gawd, guess who is off to do some reverse reforging... thanks SMILEY

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Old 05-17-2012, 08:48 PM   #26
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Mermut wrote:

SiegaPlays wrote:

While we are at the noob'R'me for determing gear upgrades, I would absolutely LOVE to see the stats with caps on my char window, so over capped blue stats are more visual. 

Last week I tried to figure out if my ranger needed more attack speed. All I found was that 200 was the cap - on some presumable outdated reference page - so with her 246 I had overdone it. A 246/200 on the char window would have helped me not spend a freaking lot of time looking up outdated sites to find out how much weight for which class to put in which blue stats. At least having a visible cap would be nice, making stat weight the important part.

If this game had more active community fanpages it might not be needed, but it is a really unfriendly system right now, since finding guidance elsewhere is next to impossible.

Combat mechanics and blue stat list was the reference I let myself be guided from -- after checking 3 fansites including eq2flames -- crit mit is still listed, so I assumed it to be outdated but hopefully valid about attack speed.

As far as attack speed goes.. 200 is the 'cap' for attack speed making you attack faster, but 'over cap' attack speed gets turned into flurry, so it's worth having 'extra' attack speed

I've recently herd one person say 1 point of flury for 15 attack speed over cap, and another say 1 point for every 100 over cap. Anyone know which?

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Old 05-17-2012, 08:57 PM   #27
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As for item score, I think it would lead to people making bad decisions.

Item Score doesn't take into account what your other gear is. If your worried about what other people see and they look only at item score it means you choose gear that gives you mods that you've already hit the cap for because it raises your item score more than lower point items that happen to give you more in stats your not capped on. You realize your doing something that doesn't benifit your performance, but you also realize it improves how other people see you.

From what I hear people in WoW do this quite often. Some people wear PvP gear to get the requested gear score, even if that PvP gear doesn't give benifits for PvE groups.

And I'll agree with a previous poster: Right now the main judge of gear is how many HP the player has. Less than 30k means trouble, 40k is solid and 50k guarentees good times.

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Old 05-18-2012, 12:28 AM   #28
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Meirril wrote:

From what I hear people in WoW do this quite often. Some people wear PvP gear to get the requested gear score, even if that PvP gear doesn't give benifits for PvE groups.

Those were the people exclusively using gearscore addon. It has changed the last 2 years, but gearscore addon used to only look at gearitem lvl and compile a number from that. Another addon named elitistsomethingorother added a value for proper or adequate enchants (adornments) and gems and had some idea if an item was actually for the class and pve useful and not just to get a good gearscore - never could figure out why gearscore was the popular addon one of the two :p

I just checked up on it, gearscore has evolved into a more advanced addon named playerscore, which actually does that including showing achievements and whatnot. So instead of being a dumbed down gear level checker, it is more of a raid/guild leader member checker/warner - or an elitist tool, if it is not to help improve members but rather to avoid players.

I remember checking stuff like that to compare myself to the rest in the group to find out I forgot to switch my fishing pole out. So it can be usefull for some types of obsessive people (yes, I fished a lot, turtle mount ftw)

It is not the tool that is bad, it is how the person choose to wield it.

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Old 05-19-2012, 12:05 PM   #29
feldon30

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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,424
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Maevianiu wrote:

Sorry Atan, but this was a bug. The value is not very useful, at this time, as it is a "work in progress" thing and it is a bug that it is showing in the examine of items. This will be fixed with tomorrow's hotfix. 

As for if we should finish up this stat and have it show or not? I'll leave that to you guys to discuss. I would be really interested in hearing what you guys have to say about it.

Stamina * Crit Chance is a good Survivability measurement for most players.

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Old 05-19-2012, 02:09 PM   #30
Sigtyr
Server: Antonia Bayle
Guild: Secret Keepers
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Join Date: Sep 2006
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Well the system is already way to complicated for many players and another score would make it even worse, the only thing that might be proper is either to publish some good information about what you need on the official site (and that is never going to happen) OR a gearscore + something like DPS Warr item, Healing Priest item. DPS priest item.

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