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Old 10-22-2012, 04:55 AM   #1
Maergoth

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Inb4 Talathion jokes.

For starters, I don't know what niche you guys want berserkers to be in. DPS wise, the tanks are pretty tied to their counterparts. Paladins and SKs both do good spell DPS. Brawlers are primarily single target. Tank wise, their roles differ. Paladins are better single target tanks, as are monks. Shadowknights and bruisers? are technically more geared towards AOE aggro and survivability.

Where do berserkers fall? Look! I made a Microsoft Paint!

So.. Following suit. Zerkers should be AOE tanks (Aggro and survivability wise), Single target melee DPS (This is the tough pill to swallow, but deviate and keep their AOE focus if you have to.) and offensive buffs.

A few suggestions to shift towards this:Tanking - Numerical damage reduction. Percentages are equally effective versus big mobs hitting like trucks, and adds stinging like a swarm of bees. Numerical damage reduction obviously would be much more effective versus swarm adds than a hard hitting single target. Every class gets a little of this via AAs, but Berserkers could really shine as reasonably stalwart AOE tanks with enough of it. Their current aggro abilities could be adjusted to be more powerful if any DPS changes hurt their AOE aggro.

DPS - This is the tough one. Personally, I don't think Warriors should be about self dps. The idea of a berserker kind of calls for it, but I just think Berserkers would be much better off if their role were more clearly defined. I'm not saying to change what they've got, but rather to not keep trying to replace the AE auto attack glory days with some other method of AOE dps. They can make up for that with some support stuff. If all else fails, maybe make their AE auto hit more than 4 targets somehow? Seems difficult.

Support - This is one of those things that tanks love. Personal DPS is cool, but so is doing things people actually care about. Amends used to be one of those abilities that i'd get spammed for forgetting to cast it. Death March is still pretty huge. Guardians have all kinds of defensive group stuff. Berserkers are plagued with temp buffs for stats that they are capped on already. I suggest letting them turn those temp buffs into group buffs. Granting them propogation of their own stats to the group, in part or whole pending balance, would be an awesome change. Sure, sitting at like, 400 DPS mod DOES still provide the zerker with small benefits, but having a percentage of his DPS mod granted to the group (25%? 15%?) while his temp DPS buff is up would provide the offensive group buffs that they really need. Warcry kind of stuff.

With all of that said and done, you'd have a berserker with reasonably high AOE dps (Probably right behind crusaders), huge swarm add tanking capabilities (Superior to crusaders defensively, similar in aggro) and desirable offensive group buffs counterpart to the guardian's defensive ones and crusader's spell based stuff. They would fit nicely in the MT group with proper gear (as an SK can currently), or slip comfortably into the scout group providing a decent amount of those overcap bonuses.

This is the best I can come up with.. and while the seven berserkers worldwide might be upset that they lose their AOE dps focus, they probably wouldn't notice it until after realizing the other directions their class has become awesome.

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Old 10-22-2012, 11:03 AM   #2
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Utility need to be more tho... I dont mind that crusaders and brawlers are parsing higher but the dps gap is higher than you make it out to be. I can parse close to our sk offensiv and dwing. And him defensiv and wearing a shield. Tbh he normaly parse higher anyway... If both are defensiv im no where near him on the parse... And parse around 150kish + on named aoe fights... (adds).For being a offensiv tank that is just wrong imo. tbh dps increas is needed but i rather see more offensiv group utility. See the other thread we made about this... it gots some nice and balanced ideas. and tbh both brawlers and crusaders would still parse more but zerks would get it abit easier to compete. more dps and haste... well its not as bad as it is right now but it wont do much for this class sadly. Taking damage we are just where we should be imo... Sure we probly take the most damage out of any other tank class... But that is not a problem the dps and utility is... i dont really think things will change since Xelgad is never showing up on the forums anymore and seams to think everything is balanced and good. Tbh pallys still need more love aswell... As do zerks... But as i said dont have to much hope for this class anymore. I dont want to play something els. Even if the raid would be better off if i played my bruiser. Both in surviveability utility and dps. But i dont want that. so its either that or find another tank. And tbh there arnt to many good left in game so im lucky tbh. Not all zerks are that lucky tho.

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Old 10-22-2012, 12:13 PM   #3
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Aoe, Aoe Melee, Offensive.

Berserkers need a support spell somewhat close to Combat Mastery. SKs should probably get one too but their personal dps is already sky high so meh.

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Old 10-22-2012, 07:33 PM   #4
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I think it really depends how many monsters you're fighting. 8 mobs, crusaders have so many AOEs that they can wreck the parse. It's hard to directly compare SK and berserker because that's cross class.

Compared to Guardians, berserkers should do more DPS. Like, a third more. In ideal situations.

I don't know you, or the scenario you're comparing against SK. I also don't know any end game berserkers. I do know that they have been chalked up to filling an almost identical role to crusaders, which is the wrong way to go IMO.

Do less DPS. Give better buffs. Paladins have virtually no support abilities relevant in today's endgame. But even compared to shadowknights, Zerkers should have more.

I really think what I suggested in OP for support stuff would be plenty DPS wise, pending conversion rates.

And for bonus awesome points.. give them a temp buff that increases their group's hategain and gives them a sizable DPS boost. Combat Mastery levels of boost.

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Old 10-22-2012, 08:46 PM   #5
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Tbh that should be the pally role. Being the most defensiv aoe tank. As you are a defensiv tank. And you cant really compare guards and zerks since they are both meh as dps tanks but guards have amazing defensiv abiitys to make up for it. bruiser and sk should be the offensiv tanks  zerks should compete with imo.

I know pallys are not perfect but they still brings alot more usefull stuff to a raid imo. 15 cb/pot buff raidwide.. Raid wide mit buff for none fighters... a group wide damage proc. striketough/acc/spell resist group wide temp buff... a rezz group heal with health increas... a group cure.. avoidance and mit buffs on your singel target heals that can be cast on others.. small pot buff (not sure if top end pallys take this one tho) raidwide buff that increas heals and wis of the raid... Add that you can do more dps on linked mobs and can be placed in a group that is not built around the tank to be able to hold aggro. Yes imo it makes more sens to use a pally as OT. Sure zerks have more snap aggro but as i said befor i still feel that pally arnt where they should be aswell yet. And tbh if you read the ideas in the thread we did befor this one crusaders would still pump out more dps but zerks would bring abit more utility and have a small dps increas. There is a reason that reckless dont work as well on a zerk as it does for a crusader. And thats all about procs and buffs. You gain more from mage utility and there for gain more all around. Im glad tho that more see zerks need help right now tho so dont get me wrong.

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Old 10-22-2012, 08:57 PM   #6
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The biggest problem I have with my zerker (in a raiding enviroment) is power. Second is hate. If you put a zerker in a raid they have just enough hate with Insolence to get the group encounters attention, then as time passes by the hate drops significantly and Insolence timer wont be up until mobs start running off. Having a coercer and/or dirge is a requirement to make up for the inconsistancies of the zerker in raids. Shame.

It would be nice if zerker had a Bruiser type of utility that lowered hate raidwide and added power somehow. And adrenaline needs to drop it's mana consumption rate. Zerker is the only tank in our raids that is ALWAYS out of power!

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Old 10-22-2012, 09:49 PM   #7
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Power is a problem for everyone almost always. Maybe berserkers have it rough, but that's a trade-off that should be there. The gains from that trade off may be imbalanced, but look at mana wall: Use it once per fight basically and it completely drains your power. For one hit.

Hate wise, I agree. It seems like Berserkers (In theory) are lacking some of the tools they should have. Loads of passive hate gain or a proc chance snap on mobs not targeting tanks, etc.

Paladins are versatile, and again.. comparing cross class isn't exactly the best idea. You want to be more offensive and more AOE oriented than GUARDIANS, not crusaders.  Keep that in mind. Trying to balance against all classes at once is what screwed berserkers to begin with.

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Old 10-22-2012, 10:04 PM   #8
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Maergoth.

Your suggestion is actually pretty close to what berserkers are. That's why we are the choice tank for PLing. The problem with using numerical reduction is that it doesn't scale between levels of content and it is also very encounter design dependent.

If you make zerkers "swarm add" tanks then they either become useless for raid content because their DR is too weak or the adds are so weak that another tank or even scout can handle it, thus you choose greater utility, dps, or ST tanking ability instead. Or if raid content demands a dedicated swarm tank with unique abilities we become OP in heroic content. Not to mention even the zerker you describe would be inferior to the other 5 tanks.

What zerkers need is better threat, better damage, better utility, and competitive either DR or AE. tbh the real problem is the other tanks have too much. There are no niches left because everyone has everything.

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Old 10-22-2012, 10:14 PM   #9
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Power is a problem for everyone almost always. Maybe berserkers have it rough, but that's a trade-off that should be there. The gains from that trade off may be imbalanced, but look at mana wall: Use it once per fight basically and it completely drains your power. For one hit.

Hate wise, I agree. It seems like Berserkers (In theory) are lacking some of the tools they should have. Loads of passive hate gain or a proc chance snap on mobs not targeting tanks, etc.

Paladins are versatile, and again.. comparing cross class isn't exactly the best idea. You want to be more offensive and more AOE oriented than GUARDIANS, not crusaders.  Keep that in mind. Trying to balance against all classes at once is what screwed berserkers to begin with.

Are you for real or what? Ofcs we need to be balanced around the other tanks? The reason should be to take a berserker and no one will ever use us as Main tanks as brawlers and guards do it better. Tbh after seing what we get in beta so far im not sure what to think... the gap is just getting bigger and bigger....

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Old 10-22-2012, 10:38 PM   #10
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There are plenty of creative ways to grant berserkers numerical damage reduction that scales in effectiveness. A percentage of your max health is granted as numerical damage reduction, etc.

Yes, berserkers should be balanced around all tanks, but they need to be balanced against their counterpart first. Once you find them a role, you balance them into it against other tanks. Right now, berserkers want to be able to main tank, offtank, do good damage, give good buffs, and hold good aggro.

Right now, berserkers DO all of those things. They just don't do anything better than anyone else. Nor do they do anything special. That's the same problem paladins had last expansion, and every tank has dealt with in the past.

Now, Paladins are amazing at single target tanking. Arguably the best in the game. We're still lame with snaps and provide virtually no offensive buffs (Heretics Destruction isn't as good as you think), but we have huge sustainability and a reasonable amount of spike damage reduction. Our single target dps is pretty lame, but you don't need to do everything at the same time.

Right now, brawlers are incredible single target tanks but basically have no reason to be used on adds. And brawlers are widely considered to be "Super freaking OP" right now. They have a place in raids because they do specific things very well. They buff scout groups, and they have really good single target everything.

Berserkers need a niche. Be the scout group add tank so you can do SOMETHING well, instead of everything mediocre. If you want to be AOE focused, you have to kiss your MT group advantages goodbye. Without competitive single target damage, you will have no place there over a guardian, because your buffs won't be good enough.

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Old 10-22-2012, 11:10 PM   #11
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But who have said that they want to be Main tanks as a zerk? I havent seen a singel post about it. However it should be poss just ST tanks should have better tools for it. You come here and claim that ppl want to be able to do all those things when if you look that the other thread we did the tools would not make us OP. You are the only one talking about zerks main tanking aoe fights... But the fact is a crusader and a brawler would still do it better. Tbh looking at the prestige now on beta and i bet they wont change since its a short beta... It feels worse and worse being a berserk.

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Old 10-23-2012, 10:55 AM   #12
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Tbh this is a joke... we got the worst stuff out of every singel tank class and i wonder why? why? Isent it time to give berserks something? Xelgad can you pls say something? What are you thinking? are you trying to kill off this class or what? since you dont care about it one bit... Even guardians got amazing prestige... And we got stuck with a death save that we wont be able to use on most stuff where we need it... and damage reduction when under a % of health? abilitys like that has always been junk as you should not be under those %ish anyway... 

Xelgad pls... can you explain for us why we keep getting shafted again and again? just say something explain to us why you are doing this? Do you think this class is ok? why?

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Old 10-23-2012, 02:12 PM   #13
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They're always open to suggestions, but the berserker community has been very poor at deciding what they want to do.

What role do you want to be best at? Figure that out first, then worry about balancing into it. I guarantee your prestiges aren't as bad as Guardians.

Either way, maybe I'm misunderstanding you because you're not making coherent posts. If that's the case, I can't help you, lol.

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Old 10-23-2012, 03:06 PM   #14
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We have? most of us are talking about OT:ing from the scout group and wanting good utility and a dps increas. A stoneskin or something to survive aoes better and a health buff. Im not sure whats not clear about that. You are the one that keeps saying zerks should not compete with crusaders. Zerks are offensiv tanks with junk offensiv stuff vs the other offensiv tanks. zerks should compete with SK/bruiser and pallys with Guards/monks. And have strong sides to it. Your idea about giving berserks more damage reduction is wrong. Zerks take the most damage and most are fine with that but we need utility and the dps to make up for it. And we dont have that or come even close to a sk or bruiser in anything.

The problem with the death save is simple... Since you need to have adds on the fight or it will kill you. Or you have to waste yet another death save to survive it. And even if the fight have adds on it its not 100% sure they are up in time for you to kill them when you  have to use the death save.

The end ability is yet another trigger when you falls low on health... and most of the time if you do you are dead anyways.

Also i dont think the guardian Prestige are bad at all. Guards have alot of stoneskins and abilitys to stay alive and alot to help the group surive on heavy aoe:s and so on. They got amazing snap aggro so that is not really needed aswell. So its just inline what the guardian should do imo. Protect the group/raid.

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Old 10-24-2012, 12:00 AM   #15
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Alright, so basically exactly what I said, except you want personal DPS instead of being able to tank things.

I suggest you play a scout.

Also, in your previous post you said: "But who have said that they want to be Main tanks as a zerk? I havent seen a singel post about it."

This other guy (Actually, it was you) posted: "The reason should be to take a berserker and no one will ever use us as Main tanks as brawlers and guards do it better"

Right now, zerkers don't have any tank abilities, defensive or aggro wise, that are better than anyone else's stuff. You don't have as much passive damage reduction, temp saves, spell damage reduction, stoneskins or HP as any of the other tanks. You don't have as good snap aggro, passive aggro or defensive self or group temps.

Those are the things a TANK CLASS needs to have. They need to do SOME of that. DPS and utility always comes second. I agree, you guys should provide some killer buffs to the scout group. However, I also know that every tank SHOULD excel at tanking to some extent, in some way.

Explain to me why exactly you need to do so much personal DPS? Why do you want a stoneskin if you don't want to main tank? Why do you want a health buff instead of damage reduction?

I suggest you redo your AAs and you'll probably have better results. All of them.

Berserkers, with a high amount of damage reduction, would be the opposite of an avoidance tank.  In fact, you could probably dual wield or use a two hander in more situations than any other tank. Similar to that of a brawler. That's a huge benefit. If the buffs you give the group are as offensive as the guardians are defensive, you'll provide twice as much to a group as a crusader will. I'd gladly give up personal DPS to greatly increase group DPS. Because personal DPS only matters on the parse. Aggro can be handled completely separately under the right conditions.

HP is a stat that is equally effective against adds AND a named. To recieve enough to give you an advantage on tanking adds would give you an equal advantage against the named. You can't have both. Damage reduction is more effective against adds.

I stand by the idea that you should do ~30% more DPS than a guardian on single target, and be built around tanking adds and buffing a scout group. If getting those things means NOT doing the same DPS as a crusader or brawler, who cares?

I haven't looked at the berserker prestiges, because this thread was made prior to beta start and isn't prestige feedback.

As for the guardian prestiges, they're pretty bad. Ask the top guardians in the world how happy they are to take 50% more damage from AOEs to keep their group alive (who never die in the first place).

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Old 10-24-2012, 10:15 AM   #16
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Alright, so basically exactly what I said, except you want personal DPS instead of being able to tank things.

I suggest you play a scout.

Also, in your previous post you said: "But who have said that they want to be Main tanks as a zerk? I havent seen a singel post about it."

This other guy (Actually, it was you) posted: "The reason should be to take a berserker and no one will ever use us as Main tanks as brawlers and guards do it better"

Right now, zerkers don't have any tank abilities, defensive or aggro wise, that are better than anyone else's stuff. You don't have as much passive damage reduction, temp saves, spell damage reduction, stoneskins or HP as any of the other tanks. You don't have as good snap aggro, passive aggro or defensive self or group temps.

Those are the things a TANK CLASS needs to have. They need to do SOME of that. DPS and utility always comes second. I agree, you guys should provide some killer buffs to the scout group. However, I also know that every tank SHOULD excel at tanking to some extent, in some way.

Explain to me why exactly you need to do so much personal DPS? Why do you want a stoneskin if you don't want to main tank? Why do you want a health buff instead of damage reduction?

I suggest you redo your AAs and you'll probably have better results. All of them.

Berserkers, with a high amount of damage reduction, would be the opposite of an avoidance tank.  In fact, you could probably dual wield or use a two hander in more situations than any other tank. Similar to that of a brawler. That's a huge benefit. If the buffs you give the group are as offensive as the guardians are defensive, you'll provide twice as much to a group as a crusader will. I'd gladly give up personal DPS to greatly increase group DPS. Because personal DPS only matters on the parse. Aggro can be handled completely separately under the right conditions.

HP is a stat that is equally effective against adds AND a named. To recieve enough to give you an advantage on tanking adds would give you an equal advantage against the named. You can't have both. Damage reduction is more effective against adds.

I stand by the idea that you should do ~30% more DPS than a guardian on single target, and be built around tanking adds and buffing a scout group. If getting those things means NOT doing the same DPS as a crusader or brawler, who cares?

I haven't looked at the berserker prestiges, because this thread was made prior to beta start and isn't prestige feedback.

As for the guardian prestiges, they're pretty bad. Ask the top guardians in the world how happy they are to take 50% more damage from AOEs to keep their group alive (who never die in the first place).

Maybe you should play a scout? And we can have crusader dps nerfed? how about that? No. You keep falling back to is either not true or not needed. If you look at the dps a SK can put out and that a bruiser can put out + add the utility they both bring... And add that they are both beast tanks. Why do you think more damage reduction will fix anything... No one would want a berserk anyway as we buff less dps do less dps and are harder to keep alive. And tbh i dont think zerks lack snap aggro at all. Brawlers have more usefull snap aggro but zerks are not bad off imo.

If you read it as i said that zerks should not be able to main tank you got me all wrong. My english is abit bad. What i mean is that the main role of a zerk should be as Offtanks. And you came with the idea about aoe main tanks but the dmg reduction needed to take the best hit on aoes would make us OP. The changes to to this need to be looked over.

tbh im not sure what you are on about.... both crusaders and brawlers can parse well so you tell why do we need a dps boost? I have even said i number of times that i dont care if brawlers and crusaders are outparsing me but the gap shouldent be as big as it is. The stone skin or a block to survive on aoes abit better tbh. And yes we have a stone skin on AA but that one is really only nice if you want to main tank. The aoe makes as better aoe tanks.

As far as taking damage. Tbh yes we do take the most damage but nothing huge is needed. the dps aspect and the utility are alot more importent if you want to compete.

Health buff is needed as we have no %health increas at all. Well on heroic tree but everyone have that. 

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Old 10-24-2012, 09:38 PM   #17
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Again Maer we do have to compete with SKs and brawlers. 

And us zerkers have actually been pretty clear on what we want.

1) spike damage mitigation

2) melee group utility

3) AoE dps

And then of course the basic needs of a tank. Greater passive threat generation.

Again these are simple fixes.

1) Gut Roar and Wall of Force block all damage (a la the new Pally "Faith")

2) Revamp Warrior and Berserker AA tree to add offensive utility and tweak unique berserker skills to effect the group

3) Base increase in all CA damage along with larger increase to blue AoEs. Add scaling to AEauto (zerker unique?)

Threat can be addressed a number of ways but the easiest would be increase reactive%, hate siphon on group berserk. Ticking threat abilities.

And again our new prestiges are by far the weakest and most irrelevant.

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Old 10-25-2012, 03:46 AM   #18
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Netty, you've completely ignored everything I've said, so I'm done repeating myself. You're asking for EXACTLY what I suggested, MINUS the one thing that would make you a viable choice for tanking WITHOUT simply cloning other classes.

Elanjar,

Why do you want spike damage mitigation if you want to offtank? And if you want to main tank, why do you want AOE DPS? And if you want to do neither and be a DPS tank, similar to the SKs you're mentioning doing so well.. then why do you want aggro?

No one is saying you don't need melee group utility, but utility and personal dps are 100% interchangable. I would gladly give up my 500k personal dps for 600k group DPS. Enough utility more than balances out your lack of personal DPS.

Unfortunately, when you want to fill PART of every role, like you're saying in this thread, you won't do any of it better than a class that specializes.  You'll do everything mediocre, exactly like it is now, and you won't have a spot in raids.

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Old 10-25-2012, 07:17 AM   #19
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Elanjar,

Why do you want spike damage mitigation if you want to offtank? And if you want to main tank, why do you want AOE DPS? And if you want to do neither and be a DPS tank, similar to the SKs you're mentioning doing so well.. then why do you want aggro?

No one is saying you don't need melee group utility, but utility and personal dps are 100% interchangable. I would gladly give up my 500k personal dps for 600k group DPS. Enough utility more than balances out your lack of personal DPS.

Unfortunately, when you want to fill PART of every role, like you're saying in this thread, you won't do any of it better than a class that specializes.  You'll do everything mediocre, exactly like it is now, and you won't have a spot in raids.

But we didn't ask to fill part of every role. We asked for one ability that can block all damage (gut roar). We ask for group utility to make us competitive with the utility brought by a crusader or brawler (melee only is fine). And we ask for an increase in dps output (preferably AE focus'd) so that we are officially in the realms of "offensive tank" again. And finally we simply want enough threat generation to be a d*mn tank. I'll play my swashy if I want to be a DWing AE dps monster.

I don't think that makes us a jack of all trades master of none like you are describing. I think it makes us competitive, primarily against the classes we would normally compete against. 

I really do like your idea of a mitigation based tank. I'd love to be able to tank adds DW/2H 90% of the time and not get pancaked because of my passive mitigation. Again I'll say the problem ends up being content. There isn't enough room between the levels of mitigation and incoming damage for that niche. You make the mobs strong enough that you need tank caliber mitigation then the zerkers ability to tank lots of "strong adds" ends up being powerful enough to MT. Then MT mobs are designed solely around spike one shots which zerks can't deal with and your tanks/healers qq about the content being annoying and completely random based and not fun, etc etc etc. If you make the mobs weaker so that the zerkers arent competing for ST stuff then it makes more sense to have a scout or brawler handle it since they'll put out more dps and utility and still handle the adds.

Also why are warriors the only ones that pay a penalty to get "block". Really annoying how much of a dps loss we get when we put on a shield (compared to our fellow fighters).

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Old 10-25-2012, 10:49 AM   #20
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Netty, you've completely ignored everything I've said, so I'm done repeating myself. You're asking for EXACTLY what I suggested, MINUS the one thing that would make you a viable choice for tanking WITHOUT simply cloning other classes.

Elanjar,

Why do you want spike damage mitigation if you want to offtank? And if you want to main tank, why do you want AOE DPS? And if you want to do neither and be a DPS tank, similar to the SKs you're mentioning doing so well.. then why do you want aggro?

No one is saying you don't need melee group utility, but utility and personal dps are 100% interchangable. I would gladly give up my 500k personal dps for 600k group DPS. Enough utility more than balances out your lack of personal DPS.

Unfortunately, when you want to fill PART of every role, like you're saying in this thread, you won't do any of it better than a class that specializes.  You'll do everything mediocre, exactly like it is now, and you won't have a spot in raids.

Spike damage is not only about taking death touchs. As a OT you sometimes have to stay close to a main mob with a huge aoe. If your group is not as stacked up as the MT group. It have one shooted me a few times... When have Dragon reflexes that can block a aoe but sometimes you need it to grab co-oping adds or just as a temp for taking to much damage.

I rather see them change a few small things to make us abit easier to compete with the other tanks than change around some if needed later than making them best at something right away only to have it nerfed a short time after. Small changes here and there will make that happen. I rember SF the only time when i feelt that zerks was in good shape. Even OP befor the heal crit nerf. You had crusaders and brawlers calling for nerfs around the corner even tho all -guardians was kinda much inline and balanced (zerk might needed a nerf then but not totaly destroy a ability). I dont want to see that again... 

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Old 10-25-2012, 04:19 PM   #21
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Elanjar,

I really don't see why berserkers NEED personal DPS. You can be an offensive tank without beating every other class on the parse. Sure, you could use a DPS boost.. but nobody picks a tank up to do DPS. Utility is what brings a tank to raids. You could easily be the most offensive tank in the game with the right group buffs and ZERO improvement to your current dps.

The mitigation tanking thing would work fine. Right now, the most damage any tank will take is the damage from adds immediately after they spawn. Main tanking is nothing but frontal AOE and deathtouch spike damage. However, while the damage output might not seem much different, the damage proc on hit that most of the big mobs have further increases their spike damage.

There is a happy medium to be had between mitigating adds really well and mitigating the named enough that, in a pinch, you could tank it.  Even if that happy medium is a 10s temp buff every 45s to a minute that grants you the physical damage reduction. Then it would be up for every set of adds, for nearly their entire life span, but still only function 20% of the time on a named.

As for your shield concern.. there's a reason you have higher auto attack multipliers than we do. I can't even dual wield.  Hell, I can't even equip a 2 hander without my class being basically neutered. We're so reliant on sword/board that our incoming damage is basically doubled or worse when we even get disarmed.

Post some parses next time you raid, so I can compare them directly.

Netty,

Okay.

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Old 10-25-2012, 04:58 PM   #22
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We are not asking to beat every singel class on the parse... really first i tough that you are just misunderstanding us but now im not sure... a dps boost does not mean beat every class on the parse neither are we asking for doing more dps than crusaders or brawlers. There is a huge gap betwen the classes in dps. And warriors dont have more auto attack mult we have higher base CB. With a shield and board your attacks hit higher. And its the same for warriors... Zerks atleast. Sure we have heals that are better than yours but with out a shield the inc is infact higher on a zerk than a pally. Brawlers have another playground since they dont need to use shields...

Amd yes stone skin are good at singeltarget tanking and damage reduction better for adds... everyone know that. 

And parses... Well its useless unless someone in equil rolls a alt gear it up and you try it that way. Raid wide dps buffs debuffs and so on plays a huge part of it.

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Old 10-25-2012, 05:56 PM   #23
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With shield and sword our attacks hit harder than YOU using a shield and sword. YOU using a 2 hander or dual wielding does more auto attack damage than we can do under any circumstances. I know this because even with the "super OP sword/board damage" you claim we have, a 2 hander STILL does more DPS when I equip it. Base crit bonus is still better than nothing.

There isn't a huge gap. There's a moderate gap. I've seen our zerkers in raid, and even our guardian put up good numbers. Tanking versus offtanking makes a huge difference, and if you're not even offtanking, of course you can do good dps as a crusader.

I'm not convinced that Berserkers are doing as little as you claim they are. Our guardian doesn't do that little compared to us. Our SK does a ton of DPS.. in recklessness.. when he's not tanking.. and there are adds stacked to burn on the named.. and he has 800k VCs.

And you won't be able to compete with SKs. Nor do you say you want to. But you say you need more dps. I still don't understand why you want more personal DPS.

I can't think of a single tank in the world that would take personal DPS over good utility unless they are having aggro troubles.. and those aggro troubles can be fixed by other methods.

Parses can be interpreted. It doesn't need to directly compare.

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Old 10-25-2012, 06:30 PM   #24
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Yes ? thats what i said... You do more damage with sword and board than a warrior. Thats a fact. And that has nothing to do with your auto attack. It has to do with your spells and procs for crusaders. And brawlers... well they have amazing self procs and can be max defensiv DWing or using 2handers. I for one dont care about the dps when im dwing i want a small boost when im wearing a shield so i can compete. All you are saying that the dps a tank put out dont matter but it does. And right now both sk and bruiser are putting out ALOT more dps when wearing a shield.

And what are good numbers? and what are those numbers compared to sk or a bruiser?

And tbh i would take the utility. As the utility works as dps boost for me aswell. But the utility need to be good. I dont really want something as OP as CM. But i want good utility. And for the last time we shouldent compete with pallys... you are a -------> DEFENSIV TANK <----- We should compete with SK:s and brawlers. And i am not asking for parsing just as good as them. Just a boost in utility and a small boost in our dps when wearing a shield.

Why? Since i want to be balanced in... Just like you want your class to be wanted... just like every other tank class want to be wanted. Tbh i would do so much better than i am atm and have it easier if i played my bruiser or rolled a SK. But i love my zerk and thats what im staying on. Give berserk to much damage reduction will make us unbalanced again. Since if you want a zerk to be best at taking damage from aoe fights you need to boost the damage over a brawlers 360 avoidance. And its just not poss with out making it OP.

It feels pointless this tbh... Im not sure if its my english or what it is but i have never asked for a huge dps increas. Small boost and some utility to compete with.

Like i said in the feedback thread...

Change focus berserk into a small damage proc. (adds like 11combat skill live)

change focus controlled rage into more block more like 10-15% (adds 5% live)

Change wall of force into a all damage stoneskin or atleast magical damage if thats better I know some ppl want Gut roar but the recast on that is to short and would make it OP. Recast with max reuse on that one is 1.30min and its 2 stoneskin physical atm.

Fix reversal in the warrior tree. It triggers damage when you block the problem with it atm is that it can only trigger every 30 sec. And that need to be lowered.

And a health buff on the Dstance.

This would fix most of the issues. Sure more might be needed but its a start and we can see where it goes from there. The dps from reversal ONLY works if you have a shield on so the dps increas is when you are wearing a sword or board. Do you really think this is to ask for to much to fix this class? its not.

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Old 10-25-2012, 10:59 PM   #25
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Netty wrote:

Yes ? thats what i said... You do more damage with sword and board than a warrior. Thats a fact. And that has nothing to do with your auto attack. It has to do with your spells and procs for crusaders. And brawlers... well they have amazing self procs and can be max defensiv DWing or using 2handers. I for one dont care about the dps when im dwing i want a small boost when im wearing a shield so i can compete. All you are saying that the dps a tank put out dont matter but it does. And right now both sk and bruiser are putting out ALOT more dps when wearing a shield.

And what are good numbers? and what are those numbers compared to sk or a bruiser?

What kind of DPS are you seeing bruisers do that I'm missing? You're not going to outparse an SK, nor should you. You should provide more utility than an SK, and do more DPS than a guardian. And us doing more damage with a shield DOES have to do with our auto attack. When a shield is equipped, we get 15% melee damage bonus. Sure, our spells are also doing more, but you can't just start grasping at straws and making connections that are irrelevant. Our spells have nothing to do with what's in either of our hands.

And tbh i would take the utility. As the utility works as dps boost for me aswell. But the utility need to be good. I dont really want something as OP as CM. But i want good utility. And for the last time we shouldent compete with pallys... you are a -------> DEFENSIV TANK <----- We should compete with SK:s and brawlers. And i am not asking for parsing just as good as them. Just a boost in utility and a small boost in our dps when wearing a shield.

I never said you should compete with a paladin. I'm a crusader. Just because I use myself as an example doesn't mean I'm saying you should compare to me. There's no core difference between paladins and SKs. Why do you want to be able to use a shield like everyone else? Why not have a different mechanic.. if you want to be just like SKs, make an SK. You NEED something as good as combat mastery to be put back on the map. Even if it doesn't affect your personal DPS.

Why? Since i want to be balanced in... Just like you want your class to be wanted... just like every other tank class want to be wanted. Tbh i would do so much better than i am atm and have it easier if i played my bruiser or rolled a SK. But i love my zerk and thats what im staying on. Give berserk to much damage reduction will make us unbalanced again. Since if you want a zerk to be best at taking damage from aoe fights you need to boost the damage over a brawlers 360 avoidance. And its just not poss with out making it OP.

I was in the same boat as you forever. I asked for unique, specific things and we got them. Berserkers are in no way at risk of becoming overpowered. Even if they're THE BEST at something, that doesn't make them over powered. That makes them situationally useful, which is far more than can be said about them currently. Berserkers don't need more damage to be a good AOE offtank. There are plenty of other ways of achieving this. Stop being so selfish and worrying about personal DPS.

It feels pointless this tbh... Im not sure if its my english or what it is but i have never asked for a huge dps increas. Small boost and some utility to compete with.

Like i said in the feedback thread...

Change focus berserk into a small damage proc. (adds like 11combat skill live)

change focus controlled rage into more block more like 10-15% (adds 5% live)

Change wall of force into a all damage stoneskin or atleast magical damage if thats better I know some ppl want Gut roar but the recast on that is to short and would make it OP. Recast with max reuse on that one is 1.30min and its 2 stoneskin physical atm.

Fix reversal in the warrior tree. It triggers damage when you block the problem with it atm is that it can only trigger every 30 sec. And that need to be lowered.

And a health buff on the Dstance.

This would fix most of the issues. Sure more might be needed but its a start and we can see where it goes from there. The dps from reversal ONLY works if you have a shield on so the dps increas is when you are wearing a sword or board. Do you really think this is to ask for to much to fix this class? its not.

The problem with all of these suggestions is that they are EQUALLY useful against single target AND adds. You need buffs that ONLY affect your add tanking, otherwise they're going to give you watered down versions of every other class' abilities. If you don't know what a main tank needs versus an offtank, then leave the suggesting to people that do.

...

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Old 10-26-2012, 12:48 AM   #26
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Netty wrote:

We are not asking to beat every singel class on the parse... really first i tough that you are just misunderstanding us but now im not sure... a dps boost does not mean beat every class on the parse neither are we asking for doing more dps than crusaders or brawlers. There is a huge gap betwen the classes in dps. And warriors dont have more auto attack mult we have higher base CB. With a shield and board your attacks hit higher. And its the same for warriors... Zerks atleast. Sure we have heals that are better than yours but with out a shield the inc is infact higher on a zerk than a pally. Brawlers have another playground since they dont need to use shields...

Amd yes stone skin are good at singeltarget tanking and damage reduction better for adds... everyone know that. 

And parses... Well its useless unless someone in equil rolls a alt gear it up and you try it that way. Raid wide dps buffs debuffs and so on plays a huge part of it.

Ask Buffrat to chime in. He's had a zerker for a while. I'm sure others do as well.

I agree w/ what Maer has been saying. Specifics are good to request improvement to the class, but you should be comparing to your counterpart tank before other classes, even if you play in different roles.

I could think of a few ways to improve ultility via melee buffs, etc, but I'm pretty sure most suggestions fall on deaf ears around here.

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Old 10-26-2012, 12:54 AM   #27
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You're not going to outparse an SK, nor should you.

WOW, Sweet baby Kerafyrm.......

Explain to me why you think this should be true???

Berserkers are offensive tanks, same as SKs.  There is no denying this....

YET:

We are expected to DPS less than everyone but Guard and Paladin, even Monks own us on AoE these days.

We are one of the worst defensive tanks, unless we are fighting swarm adds that can be tanked by Warlocks.

We have ZERO unique HP buffs, much less the metric Fton SK's were randomly gifted last year.  %based HP lol's at any and all normal HP buffs.

We have JACK for utility.  Nobody cares at all, not one bit about our group utility.

We have no Hate siphons or transfers.  Not even asking for one, just tossing it into the pile.

We receive very very little from the "mage utility" Illy and Troub, while Crusaders get just as much from the "melee utility" Dirge/Coercer and still get huge boosts from the mage utility

We don't get much from Reckless because our CA's are bad bad bad.  Except for AoE's I guess.

The only way I can concede we "should" do less DPS than SKs is if, when we drop our shield, we owned them; WE LOSE ALL OUR AVOIDANCE WHEN WE DO THIS, so yes, we should out-DPS you.  Use a 2Hander to catch up and feel the pain we do.

Our best abilities are neutered or outdated.  Adrenaline is okay but not good enough to have that power drain attached to it any more.  And AoE auto is capped and easily accessible by other fighters, scouts and Priests

The new Prestiges should be tossed on the scrap heap.  They do nothing to make up the severe gap in utility/DPS/defensive ability that we still suffer from.

FIX Warrior AA Tree, Adrenaline/Juggernaut/Open Wounds/Wall of Force.  Get us more single target damage ability and a TON more group utility.  Defensively give us more ability to avoid spell damage (Wall of Force).

I do not want to be OP.  I do not want to become the FoTM class.  I want to be on a level playing field.

I WANT TO STOP BEING NEGLECTED BY THE DEVELOPER COMMUNITY.

There are so many examples of fixes and suggestions on this forum it is nauseating.  DO IT.

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Old 10-26-2012, 01:52 AM   #28
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Tekadeo wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

You're not going to outparse an SK, nor should you.

WOW, Sweet baby Kerafyrm.......

Explain to me why you think this should be true???

Because SKs are also an offensive tank, but have to stand still to do half of their stuff? Because they get double benefit from buffs (both mage and melee)? Because you can't timewarp combat arts? Because spell hit rates will always trump combat art and melee hit rates?

You should provide good scout group buffs, do less dps, and be more defensive than a shadowknight. Shadowknights are supposed to be THE dps tank.

Berserkers are offensive tanks, same as SKs.  There is no denying this....

YET:

We are expected to DPS less than everyone but Guard and Paladin, even Monks own us on AoE these days.

When tanking?

We are one of the worst defensive tanks, unless we are fighting swarm adds that can be tanked by Warlocks.

Almost all of the adds in reasonably difficult content this expansion are far from tankable by warlocks.

We have ZERO unique HP buffs, much less the metric Fton SK's were randomly gifted last year.  %based HP lol's at any and all normal HP buffs.

You don't need HP to offtank. You need damage reduction.

We have JACK for utility.  Nobody cares at all, not one bit about our group utility.

No one is arguing this.

We have no Hate siphons or transfers.  Not even asking for one, just tossing it into the pile.

We receive very very little from the "mage utility" Illy and Troub, while Crusaders get just as much from the "melee utility" Dirge/Coercer and still get huge boosts from the mage utility

We don't get much from Reckless because our CA's are bad bad bad.  Except for AoE's I guess.

Reckless isn't a point of discussion. This is about tanks, not tanks pretending to be scouts or mages.

The only way I can concede we "should" do less DPS than SKs is if, when we drop our shield, we owned them; WE LOSE ALL OUR AVOIDANCE WHEN WE DO THIS, so yes, we should out-DPS you.  Use a 2Hander to catch up and feel the pain we do.

Like I said, without you posting an SK parse and your own parse, or at least your own parse, you're just blowing smoke. Our GUARDIAN was doing respectable DPS dual wielding / using a 2 hander. I really doubt you're so far behind in dps that no amount of utility can make up for it.

Our best abilities are neutered or outdated.  Adrenaline is okay but not good enough to have that power drain attached to it any more.  And AoE auto is capped and easily accessible by other fighters, scouts and Priests

The new Prestiges should be tossed on the scrap heap.  They do nothing to make up the severe gap in utility/DPS/defensive ability that we still suffer from.

FIX Warrior AA Tree, Adrenaline/Juggernaut/Open Wounds/Wall of Force.  Get us more single target damage ability and a TON more group utility.  Defensively give us more ability to avoid spell damage (Wall of Force).

I do not want to be OP.  I do not want to become the FoTM class.  I want to be on a level playing field.

I WANT TO STOP BEING NEGLECTED BY THE DEVELOPER COMMUNITY.

There are so many examples of fixes and suggestions on this forum it is nauseating.  DO IT.

And that's the problem. Everyone wants their fixes and suggestions to be used, so when viable alternatives and different methods of balance are suggested, they get blown out of the water by misplaced conventional trains of thought.

I can't think of a single person who plays this game that doesn't want berserkers to be OP right now. Really. No one cares. Every class has their time to shine. But when you're just replacing other tanks instead of providing alternatives to them, there begins to be a problem. All of these suggestions of max health and more dps are completely pointless. Berserkers need a role, and neither of those are going to bring you any closer to specialization. And without specialization, you're comparing number for number to the closest class you can think of. You don't need more DPS. I don't need more DPS. SKs don't need more DPS. We're not DPS classes. Utility is ALWAYS more important. Start there.

SO! Get yourself some really good scout group utility. Some SPECIFICALLY ADD TANKING survivability, and some kind of ability that increases your hate based on the amount of pre-mitigation damage you're tanking. Just worry about out parsing your guardian friends. That's all.

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Old 10-26-2012, 02:24 AM   #29
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

SO! Get yourself some really good scout group utility. Some SPECIFICALLY ADD TANKING survivability, and some kind of ability that increases your hate based on the amount of pre-mitigation damage you're tanking. Just worry about out parsing your guardian friends. That's all.

There are exhaustive lists and suggestion in other forums/topics.  Groupwide Rampage/Open Wounds...a damage proc on berserk....an overhaul of Juggernaut...Hate siphon on berserk...So many I'm sick of coming up with ideas.

If outparsing Guardians is all Zerkers have to look forward to, in your opinion, then we should be the second best defensive tank.  Balance DPS/Utility with Defense.  Since we have weak DPS and zero utility, we should be better defensively.  However since we are pigeonholed into OT's, we aren't allowed to have amazing defensive skills (see Adrenaline nerf) so we MUST ask for more utility and DPS.  Like it or not, our DPS is directly tied to our hate generation just as SK's is, so yes a DPS gain is a must.

And really you cant even compare Zerker DPS without a shield with SK's with a shield because we are Tanks and should use a shield when actively tanking... If we drop the shield we aren't really tanks.  It's only useful for meaningless content.

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Old 10-26-2012, 05:39 AM   #30
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I can't explain this any more clearly: Offensive means you bring more DPS to the raid. Defensive means you bring more survivability to the raid. It doesn't matter if that DPS comes from yourself, or you grant it to others. The second you start beating DPS classes on the parse (Which SKs can currently do), the second your class hits a grinding halt and gets the "OP" flag. Utility stuff doesn't have the same effect.

Your parse means absolutely nothing. Nor are tanks required to use a shield. Look at brawlers. Their class is built around NOT having a shield due to innate avoidance. The same can be done with enough mitigation.  You're not pigeonholed into offtanking. You're pigeonholed into siting on the bench.

There are tons of ways to give you hate gain that doesn't involve doing huge amounts of DPS.

I can guarantee that once you stop screaming for silly things like max health and more DPS, things will improve for your class. Those are too broad and too regulated to change drastically, and they'll only patch up the problem until DPS and HP rise even more over the next year or two. If you don't plan ahead, you're going to be constantly playing catch up.

Berserkers need a huge shift towards mitigation tanking, offensive utility similar in power to combat mastery, and to have large amounts of hate gain when hit/attacking.

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