Poly's or Tri's? Question for an SOE official

rollenzekson · 12-17-2012, 06:14 PM

I know it says polygons for what we are limited to, but I have been told by industry artists that polys means Tri's and not polygons. I have been sticking to using Tri's for my poly counts so far, but if I could get away with actual poly's I could add a ton more resolution on some models.

Also would submitting a model that has been multi-res'd be kosher?

Syrah · 12-18-2012, 03:11 PM

rollenzekson wrote:

I know it says polygons for what we are limited to, but I have been told by industry artists that polys means Tri's and not polygons. I have been sticking to using Tri's for my poly counts so far, but if I could get away with actual poly's I could add a ton more resolution on some models.
Also would submitting a model that has been multi-res'd be kosher?

Correct. Faces and polys are technically triangles. I believe most obj exporters output tris. Hence the value of double checking face counts by re-importing objs prior to submission.

I'm still working on the second question. The first guy I asked wasn't completely sure what “multi-res’” means. There is a multi-res modifier in 3DS Max. As long as the exported obj meets requirements, he didn't see a problem with it. Is this the right "multi-res"?

Another piece of advice was to export your model, then re-import it. See if it still meets your intended target. Apparently there are a number of potential issues which can be identified through this practice.

rollenzekson · 12-18-2012, 03:27 PM

Yes multi-res is a 3ds_max mod that keeps the same shape, but can drastically reduce the poly count. One can use a few iterations of mesh smooth and get things looking really nice and then use multi-res to bring the poly count down, but the resulting geometry is ugly at best. With something that does not get animated it should not be a problem.

I wanted to get a general idea if I could get away with this before I potentially tortured one or more of your artists.

floydbishop · 12-20-2012, 01:39 AM

I know that on Free Realms, a four vert face (polygon) gets converted to two tris (triangles) upon conversion to the in engine model. I would suggest sticking to tris if you can.

HaohmaruEQ2 · 12-22-2012, 03:06 PM

floydbishop wrote:

I know that on Free Realms, a four vert face (polygon) gets converted to two tris (triangles) upon conversion to the in engine model. I would suggest sticking to tris if you can.

Same thing happens in EQ2. No matter the face vert count, it ultimately gets broken down into triangles in game which is what our limit is based on.Also, rezing up (particularly via things like mesh smooth) to use a reduction tool to bring it down doesn't often work as well as it sounds on paper for reasons you mentioned and just maintaining a clean model. It reduces alright, but the reduction isn't always pretty and you immediately feel compelled to clean up the mesh. I'd recommend building and adding resolution where needed - with the poly limits we have in place, it's just wise particularly if you're planning your mapping approach as you build already (pinning UV borders prior to reduction/etc).Also, if we see models with unclean boolean intersections (loads of tiny tri's leftover usually) and lots of excess tri's as a result of procedural methods, we may decline it and ask for it to be cleaned up. The thinking overall is, is that the lower anything can be, the more anyone can use in their home!

Cakvala · 02-16-2013, 09:44 PM

What i usually do in 3D Studio max for Everquest weapon ornaments, is keep the poly at 200 or lower, so when it is coverted to triangles (via OBJ export) it right at 400 or lower.

rollenzekson · 02-17-2013, 02:34 AM

Can just display the tri count in Max as well. I just wanted clarification just in case SOE operated differently than what I was taught. As far as the tri count goes I was taught to be as close to the max count as possible as long as it makes sense.

Reliquary · 02-17-2013, 07:48 PM

Syrah wrote:

I'm still working on the second question. The first guy I asked wasn't completely sure what “multi-res’” means. There is a multi-res modifier in 3DS Max. As long as the exported obj meets requirements, he didn't see a problem with it. Is this the right "multi-res"?
Another piece of advice was to export your model, then re-import it. See if it still meets your intended target. Apparently there are a number of potential issues which can be identified through this practice.

I assumed the OP meant N-gons (N sided polygons) At least that is what the blender community calls it.

An 8 sided poly in traditional tri-fan fill = 8 faces. In N-gon mode, it is 1 face, like if you drew it in illustrator.

You (the Royal "SoE" You) did answer the question in so far as OBJ only supports tri's, so whilst n-gons might help the workflow, it is the output that counts. So each N-gon side = 1 tri on output.

TL;DR = use tri fan fill on polys with more than 4 sides. all 4 sided polys = 2 tri's.

12-18-2012, 03:11 PM	#2
Syrah Player Studio Program Manager Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 31	rollenzekson wrote: I know it says polygons for what we are limited to, but I have been told by industry artists that polys means Tri's and not polygons. I have been sticking to using Tri's for my poly counts so far, but if I could get away with actual poly's I could add a ton more resolution on some models. Also would submitting a model that has been multi-res'd be kosher? Correct. Faces and polys are technically triangles. I believe most obj exporters output tris. Hence the value of double checking face counts by re-importing objs prior to submission. I'm still working on the second question. The first guy I asked wasn't completely sure what “multi-res’” means. There is a multi-res modifier in 3DS Max. As long as the exported obj meets requirements, he didn't see a problem with it. Is this the right "multi-res"? Another piece of advice was to export your model, then re-import it. See if it still meets your intended target. Apparently there are a number of potential issues which can be identified through this practice.

12-22-2012, 03:06 PM	#5
HaohmaruEQ2 Developer Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 14	floydbishop wrote: I know that on Free Realms, a four vert face (polygon) gets converted to two tris (triangles) upon conversion to the in engine model. I would suggest sticking to tris if you can. Same thing happens in EQ2. No matter the face vert count, it ultimately gets broken down into triangles in game which is what our limit is based on.Also, rezing up (particularly via things like mesh smooth) to use a reduction tool to bring it down doesn't often work as well as it sounds on paper for reasons you mentioned and just maintaining a clean model. It reduces alright, but the reduction isn't always pretty and you immediately feel compelled to clean up the mesh. I'd recommend building and adding resolution where needed - with the poly limits we have in place, it's just wise particularly if you're planning your mapping approach as you build already (pinning UV borders prior to reduction/etc).Also, if we see models with unclean boolean intersections (loads of tiny tri's leftover usually) and lots of excess tri's as a result of procedural methods, we may decline it and ask for it to be cleaned up. The thinking overall is, is that the lower anything can be, the more anyone can use in their home!

02-17-2013, 07:48 PM	#8
Reliquary Happy Camper Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 19	Syrah wrote: I'm still working on the second question. The first guy I asked wasn't completely sure what “multi-res’” means. There is a multi-res modifier in 3DS Max. As long as the exported obj meets requirements, he didn't see a problem with it. Is this the right "multi-res"? Another piece of advice was to export your model, then re-import it. See if it still meets your intended target. Apparently there are a number of potential issues which can be identified through this practice. I assumed the OP meant N-gons (N sided polygons) At least that is what the blender community calls it. An 8 sided poly in traditional tri-fan fill = 8 faces. In N-gon mode, it is 1 face, like if you drew it in illustrator. You (the Royal "SoE" You) did answer the question in so far as OBJ only supports tri's, so whilst n-gons might help the workflow, it is the output that counts. So each N-gon side = 1 tri on output. TL;DR = use tri fan fill on polys with more than 4 sides. all 4 sided polys = 2 tri's.

12-17-2012, 06:14 PM	#1
rollenzekson Happy Camper Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 83	I know it says polygons for what we are limited to, but I have been told by industry artists that polys means Tri's and not polygons. I have been sticking to using Tri's for my poly counts so far, but if I could get away with actual poly's I could add a ton more resolution on some models. Also would submitting a model that has been multi-res'd be kosher?

12-18-2012, 03:27 PM	#3
rollenzekson Happy Camper Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 83	Yes multi-res is a 3ds_max mod that keeps the same shape, but can drastically reduce the poly count. One can use a few iterations of mesh smooth and get things looking really nice and then use multi-res to bring the poly count down, but the resulting geometry is ugly at best. With something that does not get animated it should not be a problem. I wanted to get a general idea if I could get away with this before I potentially tortured one or more of your artists.

12-20-2012, 01:39 AM	#4
floydbishop Developer Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 9	I know that on Free Realms, a four vert face (polygon) gets converted to two tris (triangles) upon conversion to the in engine model. I would suggest sticking to tris if you can.

02-16-2013, 09:44 PM	#6
Cakvala Happy Camper Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 29	What i usually do in 3D Studio max for Everquest weapon ornaments, is keep the poly at 200 or lower, so when it is coverted to triangles (via OBJ export) it right at 400 or lower.

02-17-2013, 02:34 AM	#7
rollenzekson Happy Camper Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 83	Can just display the tri count in Max as well. I just wanted clarification just in case SOE operated differently than what I was taught. As far as the tri count goes I was taught to be as close to the max count as possible as long as it makes sense.