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Old 11-03-2012, 02:57 PM   #61
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[email protected] wrote:

If you look at this purely objectively, Xelgad should do away with the increments entirely and just give us a group buff that lasts 12 sec and confers control effect immunity to everyone, 50% damage reduction to the group, and 25% damage reduction to the guardian.  Base reuse 120 sec, so it would be up every 60 sec with max reuse.  

I agree that this type of change would be a sound implementation of the spell. The increments are not necessary and not fun for this type of game mechanic.

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Old 11-03-2012, 04:55 PM   #62
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Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Champions Glare

Leave the toggle off early part, this is a nice addition to the micromanagement of the ability. The other benefit of this ability is to grant a 45% chance to trigger a second Increment to Champtions Sight. 

We could do with a way to gain increments that isn't wholly dependant on our group getting damaged so the ability isn't as situational as it is.

Can we change this second part so each Taunt has a 45% chance to increment Champions Sight instead?

No, no, no.  That's just trading one way of gaining increments for another; in fact, you'd be reducing the overall increment gain rate.  We need an additional way of gaining increments in order to raise the overall gain rate and render it less situational.

If you look at this purely objectively, Xelgad should do away with the increments entirely and just give us a group buff that lasts 12 sec and confers control effect immunity to everyone, 50% damage reduction to the group, and 25% damage reduction to the guardian.  Base reuse 120 sec, so it would be up every 60 sec with max reuse.  

However, since I'm about a lightyear away from Xelgad's position on where guardians should be, I'm trying to come up with less objectively reasonable alternatives that still don't screw us over completely.

Shield Bash

This ability was parsing 1k DPS for me last night, rather than taking one of our worst AA's (Reversal) and copying it, can we please have something a little more substantial. Traditionally one of our weakest areas as a class is AOE DPS and Hate, during TSO there where the Mutagenic Burst items, which prooved popular and helped a lot with this weak area. A Proc similar, maybe on a 25% chance on a block would be very nice.

- On a block this spell has a 25% chance to cast Shield Bash.

Inflicts 1200-2500 (1/4 of current proc amount) crushing damage on targets in area effect.

I'd rather have the current pile of crap version of Shield Bash than anything with the term "AE" in it, which might potentially serve to even moderately dilute our role.  We are the single-target MT's.  Paladins and monks are the multi-mob MT's (I won't say "defensive", since that implies lacking DPS, which those two classes most assuredly do not), or at least they do way better than we do in that role.

Shield Bash should become a defensive tool, or if it can't be that, then it should do one of the following while wearing a shield: substantially boost all our taunts or all our CA's or our threat gain above the 100% cap or our base auto-attack damage.  It shouldn't be a tiny increase in DPS that I couldn't be bothered to waste an AA point on.

Now, the preceding AA ability that effectively adds a max HP percentage bonus, that's what I'm talking about; I'd love to see something guardian-only in that regard.

With regard to 1, I don't really care how they do it, I just don't want to soley rely on my group being damaged to gain increments. I didn't want to remove the increments when the group was damaged, just change the 15% addition part of the Prestige, best case for this prestige imo would be:

1 point - Toggleing Champions Interception off early will restore an additional 2 Increments of Champions Site.Adds an Increment of "Champions Sight" Following "Provoke".

2 point - Toggleing Champions Interception off early will restore an additional 4 Increments of Champions Site.Adds an Increment of "Champions Sight" Following "Provoke".Adds an increment of "Champions Sight" Following "Taunting Blow"

3 point - Toggleing Champions Interception off early will restore an additional 6 Increments of Champions Site.Adds an Increment of "Champions Sight" Following "Provoke".Adds an increment of "Champions Sight" Following "Taunting Blow"Adds an increment of "Champions Sight" for each target hit Following "Shout"

Doesn't have to be DPS for Shield bash, but I'd like an ability that will proove to be more useful than simply providing 1k DPS and is completely useless while duel weilding. 

I simply can't see them turning this ability back into something that doesn't take points to cast SMILEY

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Old 11-07-2012, 10:53 PM   #63
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Not that it matters tremendously, but Champion's Interception doesn't seem to work with mercenaries.  I let a warden mercenary tank some solo mobs for a couple of minutes, taking hundreds of hits, yet Champion's Sight never went on me, let alone incremented.  Champion's Watch was, of course, running the whole time; in fact, I recast it after summoning the mercenary.

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Old 11-08-2012, 11:00 PM   #64
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Shield Bash is now Sphere of Defense. It reduces the reuse of Guardian Sphere to 150 seconds base.

A step in the right direction: a bit of defensive utility that actually affects the guardian himself.  

It is an underwhelming survivability boost, though, given that 15 s faster reuse (at max reuse) only amounts to about 0.8% extra (stoneskin) avoidance when averaged over time.

Considering this is our final endline, the only personal survivability-enhancing ability, and now costs 2 points, I think it would be more appropriate to at least lower the base reuse to 120 s, resulting in an average of 1.9% additional stoneskins.

Keep in mine that the reuse timer doesn't start counting down until Guardian Sphere drops (i.e., for some reason, GS is a toggleable buff), so with the new base reuse, this is how things would look: 25 sec of Guardian Sphere, then 75 sec of no Guardian Sphere, then 25 sec of Guardian Sphere, etc.

At any rate, even if the ability stands as is, it is better than the useless Shield Bash.

Other options: Tower of Stone base reuse reduction, Last Man Standing base reuse reduction, Perfect Counter base reuse reduction, Defensive Minded base reuse reduction, or Max HP% bonus or damage reduction attached to one of our temp buffs. 

Champion's Glare now Provoke has a chance to grant an increment.

I hope that is in addition to the current benefits of Champion's Glare.  If so, good change.  Otherwise, that almost certainly constitutes a nerf of the overall increment gain rate, which is the last thing that was needed.

Champion's Shout now also increases healing received by the group by 0.2% per rank per increment.

While anything that increases healing received by the group is utility I'd be more than happy to call my own, the fact that it is attached to Champion's Interception makes it rather less than exciting.

Considering that the wards that are supposed to absorb a given AE are most likely already cast by the time I'd use Champion's Interception, the incoming healing bonus wouldn't have much of an effect.  It isn't as though it is a challenge to bring a group to full health after an AE as it is; it is surviving the initial hit and being able to cure before the tick that matter.

Why not bring back the group (including the guardian) control effect immunity?  Or perhaps a small amount of fixed damage reduction or max HP% (excluding the guardian, if need be)?

Protecting Spirit is now a raid buff that increases the Guardian's Crit Bonus when other players take damage.

Interesting.  Could prove a nice addition to our hate generation and DPS while tanking, of course depending on the amount of Crit Bonus, whether the bonus stacks when multiple people take damage, how long the bonus lasts, and how long the range of the raid buff is.

Does this really belong at the end of the defensive tree, though?  I liked the priest damage reduction.

Ah, well.  If implemented properly, either endline would be a worthwhile addition to the guardian class, and the Crit Bonus version is probably less situational.

Champion's Interception can only restore up to 50% of the increments consumed.

This change makes no sense whatsoever.  You're actually drastically reducing the increment gain rate when we've already made it quite clear that we feel the rate is way too low as things stand.  This one is just bad.

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Old 11-08-2012, 11:22 PM   #65
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The 50 Increments need to persist through death, its a waste to save them if theres any chance you can die. But it would be extremely valuable to be able to cast this once you were rezzed to buy your grp enough time for a chance at recovering.

EDIT! So, just noticing my increments randomly disappearing and starting over at 1.

EDIT-EDIT! So it would appear the underlying problem of the increments ramdomly disappearing is if a group member wanders out of range of Champion's Watch that all increments are lost. That needs to be fixed or this ability is a complete waste.

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Old 11-09-2012, 12:13 PM   #66
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[email protected] wrote:

Snip

I can't even find these update notes, I lost my old links to the patch notes web page ages ago and can't see these notes on the forums.

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Old 11-09-2012, 04:38 PM   #67
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The notes weren't posted in the usual spot.

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Old 11-09-2012, 05:06 PM   #68
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[email protected] wrote:

The notes weren't posted in the usual spot.

which was...?

I've logged in and can't see a single change either, is this on beta?

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Old 11-09-2012, 06:02 PM   #69
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Thanks Rhita, we got that bug fixed internally.

I posted a preview of the patch notes in the stickied thread in the Adventure Leveling forum because we ended up not patching last night, and I was desperate for some feedback (thanks Karnoz). We should be patching those changes and more to beta soon.

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Old 11-09-2012, 06:34 PM   #70
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Xelgad wrote:

Thanks Rhita, we got that bug fixed internally.

I posted a preview of the patch notes in the stickied thread in the Adventure Leveling forum because we ended up not patching last night, and I was desperate for some feedback (thanks Karnoz). We should be patching those changes and more to beta soon.

Thanks Xelgad, is there any chance you made the increments persist through death? It would just suck to save 50 increments then get death touched or 1 shotted and lose it all.

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Old 11-09-2012, 07:17 PM   #71
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Yes.

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Old 11-09-2012, 08:56 PM   #72
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Hey again Xelgad, I managed to test the changes that hit beta at 3pm. The persist through death part seems to be working, however I tested the range of Champions sight and when a group member wanders out of the 35m range of Champions Sight all the increments are still disappearing. Not sure if that change hasn't gone through yet or if its just not working properly yet.

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Old 11-09-2012, 09:07 PM   #73
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Middle

 - Shield Bash is now Sphere of Defense. It reduces the reuse of Guardian Sphere to 150 seconds base.

It's base recast is 180, while a nice little addition I can't see this achieving much. Personally I rotate Sphere, Hunker Down and Defensive Minded, I then use the Stoneskins to block the brutal AOE(s)/Death touches and save Dragoons for co-op adds, I'm sure a lot of Guardians do similar.

Sphere - recast 90 duration 23

DM - recast 103, duration 30

Hunker Down - reacast 34, duration 45

All 3 start their recast when the ability ends so are essentially 113, 133, 79 recasts. You will get some downtime while hunker is down, 11 seconds one and 4 seconds the other. If you cast Sphere at 45 seconds in, it will last until 68 seconds, here you'll have a 11 second gap, then Hunker again, then DM then a 4 secdond gap, then Hunker, then Sphere. Sphere would have come back up again at 158, which is way before you'd need it at 202.

There are rare mobs where I'll use Hunker Down every AOE due to the DR on it and click it off so it's up the next one but recently with all the 30 sec AOE's this isn't really an option. 

Also if I want  my group to be taking hits to generate me points, why would I want to give them a 50% Chance at stoneskins more often. I know they need to take a hit to proc this, but then that second hit while this is up won't give me an increment of sight.

I'm not sure what I'd like for this ability, something still defensive since after all the only role Guardians have is to absorb the big hits.

A nice chunk of survivability would be to add % Healed amounts to our group mit buff, especially since Mit is so easy to get now. 10% Inc heals to targets,call it cry of defense.

Defensive

Increments do now persist through death, but when a char left the group it reset and also seems to still have a random reset bug.

 - Champion's Glare now Provoke has a chance to grant an increment.

This is the only thing this ability does.

33% Per point, at 3 points 100% chance each time provoke is used. The old ability with 6 hits if you toggle off early was worth a lot more. 

It will take us 6 ST Taunts to get to the same number of points as the old version did in 1 use on the toggle option. I have pretty high re-use and even for me it's at 4.6 so 27.6 seconds. This needs to be as well as or on any spell with a hate component. Those are Provoke/Shout/Taunting Blow/Taunting Assault. Either this, or just change it back. As an alternative add it to hold the line.

- Champion's Shout now also increases healing received by the group by 0.2% per rank per increment.

As has been stated. Interception will be used in the following way:

1. Build up points.

2. Cast ability just prior to an AOE.

3. Turn off ability to conserve points.

Anything that encourages us to keep the ability running will need to be very good to ofset using it in this way. If not, the ability isn't duel use as it seems is the attempt, it's just a waste of points.

The extra healing won't really do much anyway, the time we'd want it with the above would be just before an AOE hit to increase wards.

Having the ability have a strong secondary effect also make it actually useful when the group doesn't need damage reduction.

On any fight where I dont need the group damage reduction, I'll be able to gain at most 60% of my DPS as hate for 15 seconds every x seconds where x is dependant on the damage the group is taking anyway, and a measly 12 points per min gain from my ST taunt. If I'm using the ability for this secondary effect of hate, then more than likely the group won't need extra healing anyway.

Champions Will is also effected in the same way, we simply do not need a higher duration on this ability when the benefits of leaving it on are so weak and have a penalty for leaving it on (Point loss).

 - Champion's Interception can only restore up to 50% of the increments consumed.

Along with the Champions Glare line, this is a pretty big nerf to our increment gain.

Offensive

Defender's Charge has had its damage reduced.

Old - 4519 - 6408.

New - 4573 - 5753.

Defender's Power is now 60% per rank.

Used to be 50%, I'm a little confused with the change, the damage was nerfed and then the increase was increased here to bring us back to about what it was anyway?

 6408 * 150% = 9612

5753 * 180% = 10355

Blades of Protection's damage has been increased.

Bit more damage on the grits it adds.

Protecting Spirit is now a raid buff that increases the Guardian's Crit Bonus when other players take damage.

This is the Offensive line Karz, so is ideally placed, Defensive is still 10% DR to Priests. This one however isn't that great.

The key part here though is: MELEE Damage, Melee AOE's and if someone else is tanking is when this will proc. Also when another tank is on adds. Adds 10% of your current CB, doesn't stack. so for me at 320, its 32 CB.

Only thing I'd say is why even bother with the DR and number of increments with this change? Duration of Grits is 10 seconds. The reuse of Charge for me is 5.8 seconds. At the very most including the 0.5 sec cast time of Charge and the 0.5 cast time of the CA I have to use to proc Grit I can have 2 grits up at once for 3.2 seconds. The maximum of 3 won't ever happen will it because by the time the 3rd time to use it is here the first grit will have timed out and long gone. Surely the base duration of Grit needs to be 20 seconds as it was with the old Protecting Spirit increase?

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Old 11-09-2012, 10:18 PM   #74
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[email protected] wrote:

Hey again Xelgad, I managed to test the changes that hit beta at 3pm. The persist through death part seems to be working, however I tested the range of Champions sight and when a group member wanders out of the 35m range of Champions Sight all the increments are still disappearing. Not sure if that change hasn't gone through yet or if its just not working properly yet.

Really? Doesn't look like either change made it to beta yet!

I'll confirm to see why that's not working.

UPDATE: Because it wasn't fixed at the same time! Oops. It's working internally.

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Old 11-09-2012, 10:47 PM   #75
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I just ran some tests with the changed AA's.  The results aren't great.

Guardian's Interception

50% damage reduction at 50 increments is fine, as long are you're able to consistently get to 50 within a reasonable amount of time--say, 60 sec during a raid boss mob fight.

Champion's Glare

Champion's Glare adds to Provoke a 100% chance to generate 1 increment.  

It no longer adds 6 increments when GI is cancelled, nor does it add a 45% chance of gaining an additional increment when someone in the group takes damage.

While the Provoke change makes the ability less situational, the loss of the previous abilities, and more than anything, the fact that we now get to keep at most 50% of the accumulated increments when GI is used renders this an overall nerf.

Previously, as long as you had less than 24 increments, you'd actually gain increments, quickly at first, then more and more slowly, by using GI.  Now, conversely, you're able to build up increments at a steady rate no matter whether you have more or less than 24 increments, but you end up being able to use GI much less frequently.

If the group is hit by one AE every 45 seconds (pretty standard in raid fights these days) and Provoke is used every 5 seconds, roughly, we're talking 18.7 increments per minute, or to paraphrase, 2.7 minutes to build up to 50 increments--and do keep in mind, that isn't taking AE blockers into account.  I believe 60 sec effective reuse would be appropriate for GI, so in my view, the gain rate is only about a third of what it should be.

At any rate, no matter what, Champion's Glare remains absolutely essential.  As things stand, Provoke is currently the primary source of increments; without those 12 increments per minute, you won't be getting anywhere at all with regards to accumulated increments.

Champion's Shout

Both the marginal threat component as well as the theoretically nice incoming healing bonus component necessitate that we keep CI running fairly long.

On the other hand, if you want to be able to use GI more than once every few minutes, GI has to be cancelled quickly; otherwise, you will lose all, or close to all, accumulated increments.

So, either we get the 10% incoming healing bonus and group damage reduction once in a blue moon, or we don't get the incoming healing bonus at all, since we're forced to cast GI right before the AE in order to minimize the increment cost.

This is bad.  CS should enhance GI, but instead, it reduces the effective recast rate very significantly, so you end up losing a lot of group survivability over time.  In its current form, I doubt this ability will be picked.  

Proposed fix:

Since the group will most likely live through an AE with just the damage reduction of GI, Champion's Shout is really about adding some form of benefit to the guardian himself.  As clarified above, incoming healing bonus isn't the way to go, at least as long as you have to cancel GI early.

You could achieve an equivalent survivability boost without having to work against the base mechanic of GI by changing healing received bonus to a max HP% bonus per increment applying only to the guardian.

Will of the Champion

I still think this ability should be changed to something else. At the very least, the cast time reduction ought to be incorporated into base ability, Guardian's Interception, itself: 1.5 s that can't be reduced by the Cast Speed stat is really horrendous for a guardian whose abilities almost all cast in 0.25 s in endgame gear.

Consider that you can't pick Stalwart Conviction, Sphere of Defense, and the entire left tree; you'll have to ignore one of the three abilities Champion's Shout, Champion's Glare, and Will of the Champion.  Champion's Glare is unfortunately absolutely essential due to the ridiculously low increment gain rate even with it, so it comes down to a choice between CS and WoC, a choice between acceptable cast speed--which we shouldn't have had to pay for to begin with--and personal survivability (assuming CS is changed from healing received bonus to something that works with, and not against GI).

Champion's Stand

While I've been okay with the 10% damage reduction to priests raidwide (i.e., utility as opposed to personal survivability), AA abilities can't be considered in isolation but have to be regarded in a class balance context.

The most recent patch notes included significant survivability upgrades for paladins and monks and a very minor one for guardians, so while we're gained a tiny survivability boost via Defender's Sphere, we ended up gaining much less than the other potential candicates for the MT slot.

Monks already had Serene Energy, an ability which currently parses 1K - 2K HPS; the Defender's Sphere change isn't even equivalent to that.  

Now they also have the new Winds of Retribution.  Consider:  The monk uses Tsunami, gaining 30 sec of automatic ripostes, maxing out Winds of Retribution in a matter of seconds; when Tsunami wears off, the monk still enjoys a 10% max HP and 3% riposte chance buff for at least the next 30 seconds, which can easily be extended given how much Riposte Chance a raid-geared tank has these days; 60 seconds after Tsunami expired, it can be recast, restarting the cycle.

Effectively speaking, you have given monks a permanent 10% max HP and 3% riposte chance buff.

On top of the disparity between Serene Energy and Defender's Sphere, Winds of Retribution represents a major shift in  the survivability balance in favor for the monk class, so I no longer see any reason why our left/defensive endline should be utility and not personal survivability.

Assuming Winds of Retribution isn't changed, I propose Champion's Stand be changed so it adds either a 15% damage reduction bonus or a 15% max HP buff or a mix of the two to our defensive stance.  Throw in a shield requirement to keep it all nice and defensive.

Sphere of Defense

As I already mentioned in my previous post, 15 s reuse reduction (at max ability reuse, which is the norm in high-end raiding) doesn't amount to a lot with regards to this particular buff.  

If you really don't want to reduce the base reuse further, then how about changing Sphere of Defense entirely, so the base reuse remains at 180 s while the stoneskin proc chance is increased from 25% to 35%.  I'd much rather have a more reliable defensive tool that is available less often, than a less reliable one that is available more frequently.

Of course, an even more appealing change would be to change the AA to a base reuse reduction to one of our guaranteed stoneskin abilities (i.e., Tower of Stone, Last Man Standing, Perfect Counter).

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Old 11-09-2012, 11:08 PM   #76
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If I want to maximize my personal survivability in the MT role, I currently gain the most by going for a hybrid spec with just Unstoppable Wall in the left tree, only Stalwart Conviction in the middle tree, and up to Defensive Bulwark in the right tree.  Not only is such a spec superior defensively, it also provides me with a nice bit of additional DPS.

It isn't what I'd consider balanced, though.  Going 100% for the left (and middle) tree should net far greater defensive benefits than any hybrid, let alone right tree-focused, spec.

Unfortunately, that isn't currently the case.

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Old 11-10-2012, 03:14 PM   #77
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Yet another few suggestions as to how to fix the lack of personal survivability in the left tree.  These suggestions are separate options; either one of them would fix the current disparity between guardians on the one hand and monks and paladins on the other:

  • Allow the guardian a fraction of the damage reduction the group gains due to Guardian's Interception (GI), enough to be significant, so you could forgo use of a stoneskin ability vs an ordinary hard-hitting AE, but not enough to counter a death touch.  I'd propose 0.5 damage reduction per increment, so 25% at 50 increments.  Balancewise, consider that this would only apply vs a single AE every couple of minutes; it wouldn't contribute any survivability vs procs or auto-attacks except those occurring the second before and after the AE hit.  Furthermore, consider that this highly temporary and situational bonus has to be significantly better than the effectively permanent 10% max HP bonus and 3% Extra Riposte Chance monks gained.
  • Change the left endline to permanently render Tower of Stone (ToS) a duration-based stoneskin effect that stoneskins everything for 10 seconds instead of just providing four stoneskin triggers for 10 sec.  
  • Change the left endline to permanently increase the damage threshold of Tower of Stone, Last Man Standing, and Perfect Counter, our three on-demand stoneskin abilities, to 40%.  No more procs off successful avoids or attacks eating our stoneskins when we need them to counter AE's or death touches.
  • Change the left endline to add one or two stoneskins with a 40% damage threshold to Block (i.e., the endline from the guardian subclass AA tree, not the avoidance type).
  • Change the left endline to an ability that turns Defensive Minded and Hunker Down into non-toggleable buffs, so the reuse timer starts counting when the ability is activated, as opposed to when the buff drops.
  • Change the left endline to add 15% damage reduction or 15% max HP to Battle Cry (the guardian temp mitigation buff).  Any less, and the change would be inferior to the 10% max HP and 3% Extra Riposte Chance monks gained.
  • Change the left endline to allow Defensive Minded to proc a stoneskin on any successful avoid, not just dodges.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:02 AM   #78
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Defensive side is looking very weak.

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Old 11-13-2012, 07:16 AM   #79
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Still no changes?

1. Fix the increment gain rate.

2. Some sort of personal survivability needs adding. Sphere was a nice idea but it won't give any noticable benefit.

Balance between Guardians and Monks is very good at present, personally I think swung a little towards the Monks due to their extra DPS and utility. Increasing their survivability while not doing the same to Guardians is adversly effecting that balance.

There have been plenty of suggestions for balanced changes to a lot of the abilities above. Please pick 1 or 2 and ensure this line doesn't go live in the state it's in.

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