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Old 10-28-2012, 11:43 PM   #31
Maergoth

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If it's hitting that hard, it needs to be nerfed unfortunately :/ that's a little much. And that's probably about what it does with debuffs in raid. I was testing on a dummy.

1 mil damage every 10 seconds is just too high. That's like, 20% of our dps on single target. The line can be made desirable by boosting the rest of the stuff if necessary, but that's a huge amount of damage for one ability.

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Old 10-29-2012, 01:40 AM   #32
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

DeathMagus wrote:

First off... You're welcome.  

Second... Have you actually tested the ability in Beta by reflecting a Red text ability or a DT yet?  If not I'd start with something easy to get to like the drake in Sev x4.  Just wait for the mob to do Vicious Bite and try reflecting it.  

Third... If the only real viable complaints about the ability relate to the dmg output then why not ask for something instead of the dmg output as an alternative to simply increasing it?

Also... I did say a bit of extra damage... I don't have a geared lvl 95 pally on beta to go test how the dmg portion was actually implemented.  

There are quite a few problems with everything you just said. 

For one, red text failure conditions in hard content apply incurable, ticking effects that span well over a 3 second window. Meaning, as soon as immunity wears off.. bam. Dead.

Additionally, If you've done any real content this expansion, you'd know death touches apply in 2 parts. The first major damage infliction, and a follow up max health hit 6 seconds later. This means we CAN'T even block an entire deathtouch with it.

Even with neither of those things being true, this ability reflects in the same fashion as Legionnaire's conviction. Completely unmodifiable damage. Saying that I haven't tested it, which I have, doesn't mean I can't infer it's usefulness after using an extremely similar ability for the past 2 years.

In an ideal situation, you'd be able to use this ability to span 2 effects.. the end of a death touch and an AOE lining up at the same time. (Assuming the death touch isn't no hostile / no beneficial / stun / stifle etc.. which they usually are) Even in that situation, the reflect would only do between 200k and 300k damage. And that's in a perfect scenario WITH me intentionally taking both effects.

My auto attack hits harder than that.

The idea of a reflect is nice. But there's no reason to put a reflect portion on it, or create a group buff around an effect that is simply not significant or even noticeable.

At least make the group proc fully modifiable. Crit, crit bonus, potency.. everything. Then maybe it will turn out alright.

Some red texts don't apply the incurable that keeps ticking.  An example is the last named HM in ST....   Now if it is unmodifiable like LC is now then it's probably going to be nigh worthless for dmg.  But hell even if it was only a 3 sec stoneskin vs all dmg it'd be plenty useful.  If you tried to say it'd be too hard to time then that's because you're either using a lackluster computer, you play on a server like Oasis that tends to lag like hell, or you're simply not very good at pushing buttons.  

Also, if you can't work around the DTs in PoW on a pally with 2 healers as of right now then something is wrong.  

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Old 10-29-2012, 02:53 AM   #33
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I don't think this conversation is worth continuing. Partially because you're misunderstanding me and I don't have the patience to clarify. (I could just say you are wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's a misunderstanding)

Also because the ability was adjusted and it's in proper place now.

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Old 10-29-2012, 07:12 AM   #34
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

If it's hitting that hard, it needs to be nerfed unfortunately :/ that's a little much. And that's probably about what it does with debuffs in raid. I was testing on a dummy.

1 mil damage every 10 seconds is just too high. That's like, 20% of our dps on single target. The line can be made desirable by boosting the rest of the stuff if necessary, but that's a huge amount of damage for one ability.

Sadly this ability is not going to be used much at all; in fact the only time I see this being used is if you are a herioc tank or you KNOW you are never going to need the DR from Sacrament.

I mean if it was a choice betwene this AoE bomb or a 4s Damage immunity it may actually be a tough choice; sadly this is more a choice between the ability to actually survive in raids / tough instances  or having fun on the parse.... the second may be fun once in a whlie but sadly there is little choice in the end.

This will not effect me personally; but other paladins who will spend more time in a OT / AoE tank role they will be forced to give up certain aspects of the previous prestigues (thus reducing their ability to survive) if they want to get access to the AoE ability.

If you make it so accessing the "final tier" in the previous prestiges unlocks ANY path of this set of prestigues it would improve almost every class; currently many classes are forced down one path simply because of previous abilities that is no choice at all it is simply a question of "oh, well I can't give that ability up"; our previous choices remove the choice for this level increase.

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Old 10-29-2012, 02:59 PM   #35
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4s immunity really isn't that important for tanking adds though.. and damage reduction is only necessary for preventing one-shots.

For tanking adds, we still have the tools to do so. I really think the right side is worth taking, given a few more tweaks.

While I agree that it's absolutely stupid to link the old prestiges and the new ones, given the current setup, the dps gain is definitely worth it for someone in the secondary or tertiary tanking position. I also agree that nerfing it too much would simply remove any desire to take this tree, given how much we have to give up. I'd say 10-15% less damage would be about right.

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Old 10-30-2012, 06:54 AM   #36
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Divine Territory still does not work right. It hits only one target with the expected amount and the other with really small numbers like 3-4 times its base value.

It also hits 8 targets in range now, but only gives 6 increments from them, instead 8 for "each target struck" as in the description. Maybe changing it to the new AoE target number? Six times 2 dps and 2 haste per increment do not really matter anyway. Was it not supposed to be 6 per increment?

Third, its range is unmodifiable like with Field of Battle War Rune.

Harbinger of Justice works fine damage-wise but it does not give any increments back. Range modification works fine.

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Old 10-30-2012, 03:46 PM   #37
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Once they fix the increments being removed before all the damage is applied, it should apply the damage to every target hit, fully modifiable, and in good balance. We'll see after that happens :p

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Old 11-01-2012, 05:41 AM   #38
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Divine Territory damage works now as expected. Every target hit gets the same stacked up increments-damage.

Still no increment-buff effect on use of Harbinger of Justice.

Haven't checked range modifier on Divine Territory yet.

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Old 11-02-2012, 10:39 PM   #39
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Alright, back to the left side.

Both the group reflect portion and the damage application from "Faith" have WAY too short of a range.

Tested this in raids last night. Every time, I'd be lucky to catch one or two people in my group with the ability, because I was tanking the mob and they had all jousted out. The damage reduction from faith is NOT greater than the damage reduction from "Get the heck out".

There is never a situation in which they should be getting hit with my reflect, or gain the damage from it.

I really think they range on those two portions of the ability need to be adjusted.

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Old 11-05-2012, 11:42 AM   #40
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Divine Territory - Range still not modifiable, sticks at 10 Meters

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Old 11-08-2012, 06:21 AM   #41
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Zealous Power - Consecrate ticks for 1.5% max power and doesn't cancel at zero.

After testing: This was changed. Theoretically, this is a much better power tool. Maybe a little less powerful, but a lot less situational.

Actually, I find this new version worse than the static one, wich our fellow Shadowknights still have. The recast for Consecrate is too long (more than 3 minutes) to be useful against heavy manadrains from named raid encounters. I rather have a passive mana reg ever 30 sec when I get low than having to wait 3 minutes to use this spell.

Might be a Coercer thing, but I still have a lot of mana problems on PoW encounters like Tagrin. And since everything coming from nameds there has a massive manadrain attached, I really liked the old version of Zealous Power more.

If this version stays, lower the recast of the spell per se or via AA line in the Paladin tab.

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Old 11-08-2012, 02:35 PM   #42
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I'm experiencing the opposite, honestly. The only time I have mana problems is when taking death touches on top of power drains and often. Having consecrate tick for power when I need it has been far more useful than being given a small amount of power when I hit zero.

No control over the old effect was the major problem with it. In addition to it being "overpowered" in solo and group situations. Plus, it makes Mana wall more viable because you can tick up extra power before using it, opposed to simply "recovering" from zero.

While consecrate is up with this prestige, you'll always have power to click something. With the old version, you'd have power for a second or two and then be out again. In practice, the new version is much better.

While I do feel like the power replenish is kind of low on consecrate currently, I have actually had a lot of success with this AA in the new raid zones, and I know it will work better in plane of war. Plus, consecrate cancelling when you hit zero power has to be one of the most annoying things in the universe.

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Old 11-08-2012, 03:26 PM   #43
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I see your point. I haven't got the chance to test this prestige in the new zones yet.

Does this mean, we better don't spend 5 points in Consecrate Paladin-AA to shorten the bursts? As I see it, having constantly mana incoming stretched on a longer duration seems more interesting than shorter bursts.

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Old 11-08-2012, 04:55 PM   #44
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It means you can do either one. If you prefer mana over the longer stretch, then you can skip the points in it.

Doing so also increases the reuse of Consecrate though, since recast doesn't start until it deactivates. Personally, because the mana per tick IS so low, I'd prefer a faster tick so I get the mana a little faster.

It's really just preference. I precast it when I know I'm going to be drained really hard, and since the recast is so high you can afford to wait a few seconds to cast it without losing too much over the course of the fight.

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Old 11-09-2012, 12:37 PM   #45
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

It means you can do either one. If you prefer mana over the longer stretch, then you can skip the points in it.

Doing so also increases the reuse of Consecrate though, since recast doesn't start until it deactivates. Personally, because the mana per tick IS so low, I'd prefer a faster tick so I get the mana a little faster.

It's really just preference. I precast it when I know I'm going to be drained really hard, and since the recast is so high you can afford to wait a few seconds to cast it without losing too much over the course of the fight.

Sadly we are fast running out of points to actually spend in that tree! Without the 5 points in Concecrate you'll be "wasting" points in Raidwide Wisdom and reduced power cost on heals.

A good problem to have however SMILEY

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Old 11-10-2012, 04:32 AM   #46
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Alright. This is probably what we're going to be working with post-launch, so I'll just say this.

I am incredibly appreciative of the feedback consideration. This is the first time I'm going into an expansion anxious to try out some new skills that are not only balanced, but desirable.

Legitimately excited to try them out, I just hope the raid content is a proper platform for doing so. I really wish they would delay raid release to take the extra time to polish them. Beats getting jerked around with post-launch balance, or a week-long expansion clear.

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Old 11-10-2012, 08:01 AM   #47
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Indeed. Very fast response to our feedback. Still wish, they would unchain the prestige trees from this expansion and the previous.

But the way it is, I will have to port home everytime I switch from 3rd Tank to MT-Position in a raid to be effective. How about a portable mirror?

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Old 11-10-2012, 09:49 AM   #48
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I agree. Unchaining the trees would have made it a lot more enjoyable.. but I guess we'll just have to get that some time in the future. Probably spring it on us after a big game update or something.

I guess I Just don't understand the philosophy of forcing people out of options. Not letting people take 2 conversions is one thing, but not letting them diversify their character is totally freakin' lame. And not only that, but PENALIZING them for diversifying (taking 6 of the worthless top abilities to go down both trees) makes even less sense. It's definitely the most painful thing ever.

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Old 11-11-2012, 11:53 AM   #49
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PaladinHarbinger of Justice now properly shares a reuse with Divine Territory. Its damage has been reduced.

Well.. I leave this uncommented right now.

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Old 11-12-2012, 02:29 AM   #50
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It basically needed to happen. I was having it hit for almost 2 mil in raids. With a 10 second recast, and making up more than 20% of my DPS.. it was too much.

When you're a defensive minded offtank and you're seriously considering giving up the entire left side, there's a problem. Especially with as powerful as our left side can be under the right circumstances.

If we don't mention the obviously broken stuff, we can't really expect feedback to be taken seriously. I don't know how it balances against the other tanks DPS lines, but I do know that we have one of the most desirable defensive lines going into this expansion. It's a little unfair to expect the best of both worlds.

As long as it wasn't reduced by more than 15%, it will still offer desirable DPS gain for offtanks who choose to go that route. Anything more than 15% and no one will want to take it without the supporting prestiges being made better.  I hope they didn't reduce the damage on Divine Territory as well. And from a few minutes of testing, it seems like it all works out fine. Especially with the max health group buff attached.

I still don't really understand what putting points into "Divine Territory" does, besides grant a little bit of dps/haste gain. Seems silly.

With that said, however, my experiences with the raid content in this expansion leads me to believe that the situations in which "Faith" will be powerful are few and far between. No big death touches, no huge AOEs, and only a few failure conditions that can be manipulated. I really hope I haven't seen enough to complain, because a reflect based ability is heavily hinged on the content it's used in. Reflect aside, even 4 seconds of damage immunity is situational. I hope those situations arise more often than I expect.

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Old 11-12-2012, 07:07 AM   #51
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

It basically needed to happen. I was having it hit for almost 2 mil in raids. With a 10 second recast, and making up more than 20% of my DPS.. it was too much.

When you're a defensive minded offtank and you're seriously considering giving up the entire left side, there's a problem. Especially with as powerful as our left side can be under the right circumstances.

If we don't mention the obviously broken stuff, we can't really expect feedback to be taken seriously. I don't know how it balances against the other tanks DPS lines, but I do know that we have one of the most desirable defensive lines going into this expansion. It's a little unfair to expect the best of both worlds.

As long as it wasn't reduced by more than 15%, it will still offer desirable DPS gain for offtanks who choose to go that route. Anything more than 15% and no one will want to take it without the supporting prestiges being made better.  I hope they didn't reduce the damage on Divine Territory as well. And from a few minutes of testing, it seems like it all works out fine. Especially with the max health group buff attached.

I still don't really understand what putting points into "Divine Territory" does, besides grant a little bit of dps/haste gain. Seems silly.

With that said, however, my experiences with the raid content in this expansion leads me to believe that the situations in which "Faith" will be powerful are few and far between. No big death touches, no huge AOEs, and only a few failure conditions that can be manipulated. I really hope I haven't seen enough to complain, because a reflect based ability is heavily hinged on the content it's used in. Reflect aside, even 4 seconds of damage immunity is situational. I hope those situations arise more often than I expect.

In my experiance raids on beta should be taken with a pinch of salt. often the incoming damage is MUCH higher on live (sometimes as much as double or tripple) and AoEs which barely tickled on beta will one-shot the raid on live. Remember they want us to test the scripts of raids not to spend most of our time repairing SMILEY I'm guessing there will be a lot of opportunity for faith to become very useful.

I just wish that the range for the DR reflect and damage triggers was taken to AT LEAST max healing range (25m?) so the group is given the option of staying or jousting away entirely; less than 10m range from the mob often ends  up taking SIGNIFICANTLY more daage even including the 26% DR.

If group members are that close they will be AoE immune making the reflect/damage triggers worthless.

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Old 11-12-2012, 10:30 AM   #52
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Right now, I don't see a chance to EVER use the right DPS tree. The left one is essential for tanking and has to be brought to a raid as a tank. Switching position during raids would require porting home to mirror the DPS spec and I don't see that happen either.

Since cross speccing is virtually not an option, I will always have this left tree active.

So for me, the DPS tree is just nice to look at but never to use. When do we get portable mirrors again?

Maybe I should start sucking at tanking to get a DPS role more often.

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Old 11-12-2012, 03:26 PM   #53
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I agree with the range issues on the group application parts of Faith. I noticed the same thing. It really does need to have a larger radius, for both coverage and application of the buff afterwards.

Cyrdemac, the only people who should be using the right are tertiary tanks or people who have trivialized the content. For example, 6 months from now, I might switch to the right side just to post some cool DPS parses and stuff.

Unfortunately, because Devout Sacrament is one of THE most important tools we have access to, you can't make the right side desirable for a primary offtank without it being overpowered.

Such is the result of linking the old and new prestige trees. I've been trying and trying to get separation after the conversion considered, but haven't even got a response to it. It probably won't happen any time soon.

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Old 11-12-2012, 07:35 PM   #54
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I agree with the range issues on the group application parts of Faith. I noticed the same thing. It really does need to have a larger radius, for both coverage and application of the buff afterwards.

Cyrdemac, the only people who should be using the right are tertiary tanks or people who have trivialized the content. For example, 6 months from now, I might switch to the right side just to post some cool DPS parses and stuff.

Unfortunately, because Devout Sacrament is one of THE most important tools we have access to, you can't make the right side desirable for a primary offtank without it being overpowered.

Such is the result of linking the old and new prestige trees. I've been trying and trying to get separation after the conversion considered, but haven't even got a response to it. It probably won't happen any time soon.

yep, so it seems

but portable mirror would be cool

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