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Old 10-05-2012, 12:43 PM   #31
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Think you missed some sarcasm there bud. While raiding doesn't affect you it does affect others so why post? Even die-hard heroic only folks benefit from a merge. 

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Old 10-05-2012, 12:53 PM   #32
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Chronus1 wrote:

Except that 3 of the top 4 raiding guilds are constantly recruiting and our guild is looking like it might die as we haven't been able to recruit any class, yet alone the healers and chanters we need. That heroic groups don't really ever do the 2nd last named in ST as hardmode and the population is spread through multiple timezones so people see less of eachother.

Yeh Freeport doing fine...

Perhaps that has more to do with the declining popularity of raiding, rather than the declining popularity of the server?

If the top guilds can't fill their raid slots then that suggests there are too many of them. Perhaps the OP would be better off calling for raid guild mergers rather than server mergers?

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Old 10-05-2012, 01:03 PM   #33
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Seffrid wrote:

Perhaps that has more to do with the declining popularity of raiding, rather than the declining popularity of the server?

If the top guilds can't fill their raid slots then that suggests there are too many of them. Perhaps the OP would be better off calling for raid guild mergers rather than server mergers?

It's really a matter of game design really.

I know on Unrest between the top 10 guilds on the server, they'd need 15 new utility players to fill all the open slots.

Even attrition isn't going to solve the issue, it will still be the same number of guilds needing the same number of utility.

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Old 10-05-2012, 01:09 PM   #34
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Kapath wrote:

Think you missed some sarcasm there bud. While raiding doesn't affect you it does affect others so why post? Even die-hard heroic only folks benefit from a merge. 

No, I didn't miss the sarcasm -- I chose to ignore it. As for "why post," I think that question answers itself.

There might well be benefit to other players on other servers, & I'm not speaking of them. Freeport, IMO, does not need to be merged with any other servers; thus, my statement that "Freeport is fine."

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Old 10-05-2012, 09:06 PM   #35
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Ulrichvon wrote:

Regolas wrote:

. Those that don't, don't want to or can't due to time constraints or play classes not needed.

Thats pretty much the thing right there.   There are plenty of players, just none of them willing to play support classes.  Wish I could link a thread from our guild forums about needing a dirge, cause its full of people who play T1 dps now stating the refuse to play a dirge ever again

Its like everyone is content with not progressing and playing what they want vs playing what is needed to progress.

Wonder why people don't want to play support?  When you go to eq2flames or even this forum and every class section is about how high they can parse (including healer ones like templars).  As tank, healer, support, small brownie on the side we gauge how good you are by dps.  Not the fact you're raising the entire groups dps up by X amount but how terrible your own dps is.

Idiotic players and lack of understanding game mechanics is why nobody plays support.

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Old 10-05-2012, 11:30 PM   #36
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salty21db wrote:

Wonder why people don't want to play support?  When you go to eq2flames or even this forum and every class section is about how high they can parse (including healer ones like templars).  As tank, healer, support, small brownie on the side we gauge how good you are by dps.  Not the fact you're raising the entire groups dps up by X amount but how terrible your own dps is.

Idiotic players and lack of understanding game mechanics is why nobody plays support.

The way support works right now tho is that most of the benefit they add to the group are static buffs.  You put them up before pull and when people get rezzed.  That just isn't very satisfying to a player that wants to be the best when anyone at the keyboard can pull that off.  There are limited things outside of dpsing as a utility that seperate the good from the bad.  And unfortunately parsers aren't usefully tracking much other play-quality measurements aside from dps. 

The things utility can control like victorious concerto size/timing and time warp timing are rare and, in the case of tw, not directly measurable to warrant credit for their quality of play.  People like to be recognized for being good.  It's fulfilling.  If there were more utility abilities that actually required measurable skill you'd see more people wanna play them.

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Old 10-05-2012, 11:58 PM   #37
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It is too far gone here but I really hope there isn't pure support classes in EQNext. And if there are I hope there is a system setup from day one to be able to track their contribution. When I played EQ1 you knew a bard was good when they managed to keep lots of songs up at once via twisting, knew what songs to switch to and when.

Only game I ever liked and preferred being support is in DCUO. They basically just did some light CC and power fed massive amounts (by using an attack and a self DPS buff) and the only role that did more DPS was the pure DPS role (all things being equal).

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Old 10-06-2012, 12:24 AM   #38
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Kapath wrote:

Population numbers are quite low at 'peak' hours and noticed every raiding guild is having a hard time to fill. I'm not alone in feeling this and thought I'd create this to bring to light we. desperately. need. server. merges. The lack of advertisement leaves no other choice...thank you in advance for any support/enlightenment. 

-Concerned Eq2 player

reason why numbers are down is because they have made irrelevant changes to the game and so its dropping costumers due to there poor judgment and choices.

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Old 10-06-2012, 01:46 AM   #39
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Twyxx wrote:

salty21db wrote:

Wonder why people don't want to play support?  When you go to eq2flames or even this forum and every class section is about how high they can parse (including healer ones like templars).  As tank, healer, support, small brownie on the side we gauge how good you are by dps.  Not the fact you're raising the entire groups dps up by X amount but how terrible your own dps is.

Idiotic players and lack of understanding game mechanics is why nobody plays support.

The way support works right now tho is that most of the benefit they add to the group are static buffs.  You put them up before pull and when people get rezzed.  That just isn't very satisfying to a player that wants to be the best when anyone at the keyboard can pull that off.  There are limited things outside of dpsing as a utility that seperate the good from the bad.  And unfortunately parsers aren't usefully tracking much other play-quality measurements aside from dps. 

The things utility can control like victorious concerto size/timing and time warp timing are rare and, in the case of tw, not directly measurable to warrant credit for their quality of play.  People like to be recognized for being good.  It's fulfilling.  If there were more utility abilities that actually required measurable skill you'd see more people wanna play them.

Power fed can be measured just the same as dps is through ACT.  But power doesn't matter to people unless they run out of it and if you're a good enchanter that doesn't happen sooooo....double edged sword.

Regardless of that on the support I played (dirge,coercer) I always had plenty to do because if I wasn't feeding power, casting temp buffs, rezzing, curing rez effects, etc., I was dpsing but only if everything else was taken care of.  I had no issue knowing that I was helping the group as when I wasn't in group they did tons less dps, etc.  The problem wasn't me being fulfilled as a player, it was the other players not understanding what I was doing for the group.

Again the issue wasn't MY understanding and feeling fulfilled of my class....it was the other players who couldn't understand that my dps may be 5k less than normal but the groups went up by 20k (example numbers).

*Edit* -  The most active was my dirge when I raided.  A healer should never rez anyone but the tank if their is a dirge in the group.  So in raids I rezzed/removed rez effects a lot.  So while picking up the pieces of other people's stupidity for standing in X ability, etc. I was shunned upon because my dps numbers weren't that high.  This was in many occassions and many raids and many different content expansions.  People just don't understand the support classes because EVERYTHING IS ABOUT DPS!

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Old 10-06-2012, 12:03 PM   #40
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If nobody wants to play the support classes on 10 servers, then merging all the servers together will make one big server where nobody wants to play support classes.

- Root cause analysis

1. Illy's, Coercers, Troubs and Dirges have low direct dps, so the dps junkies don't want to play them to play them. If raiders can't get in the top 5 on the parse, then they cry in their sleep, dream of better gear and try to come up with better button mashing sequences for the next raid. A. Make  Illy's, Coercers, Troubs, and Dirges have higher direct dps, so the dps junkies will want to play them.

2. An overall lack of players in EQ2   A. SOE needs to advertise their games better. SONY as a company, is terrible at advertising all their products. It's not just an SOE problem.

3. ACT is a major cause of the problem. If this 3rd party tool couldn't be used to measure an individuals DPS when you are in group/raid, then a lot of the "I'm better than you. Your DPS sucks" attitude would go away. A. If only ACT showed all incoming DPS and the Total outgoing DPS (not an individuals). ACT is a great tool and I don't want it to go away, but great tools are also using it to brag and compare.

A radical answer would be to spread the buffs from those classes to all the other ones. Make the Illys and Coerecers true mages and split their buffs up amongst all the mage classes. Make the Troubs and Dirges true scouts and split their buffs up amongst all the scout classes. Make everyone equal and then they should all be loved and played equally.

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Old 10-06-2012, 01:46 PM   #41
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SteelPiston wrote:

A radical answer would be to spread the buffs from those classes to all the other ones. Make the Illys and Coerecers true mages and split their buffs up amongst all the mage classes. Make the Troubs and Dirges true scouts and split their buffs up amongst all the scout classes. Make everyone equal and then they should all be loved and played equally.

Or just make the bard/chanter buffs raid-wide instead of group reducing the necessity for the current 1/3 representation in a raid.  This opens more spots for classes people wanna play.

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Old 10-06-2012, 03:30 PM   #42
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I miss the days of actual emersive control effects.  Coercer was a lot more fun in early eq when mezzes actually helped.

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Old 10-06-2012, 03:45 PM   #43
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crazyeyes321 wrote:

I miss the days of actual emersive control effects.  Coercer was a lot more fun in early eq when mezzes actually helped.

I have plenty of situations where mezzing helps.  Problem again is is if you mez the group flips out because they do less dps and just "burn it."  Any fight mechanic can be fixed with "just burn it."

The game hasn't changed much.  The egotisitcal dps nuts changed it.

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Old 10-06-2012, 09:45 PM   #44
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Nagafen: pvpSplitpawstorms, valor, harla, bs, seb)AB:RP ( Butcherblock,unrest,perma)

Badport: Guk, Oasis, Everfrost,Crushbone.

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Old 10-07-2012, 11:15 AM   #45
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 I can see a couple of server merges but not all. Some servers are just fine while others are struggling. Keep an open mind.

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Old 10-08-2012, 09:17 AM   #46
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I'm totally down for server merges.

Another game just merged its servers and it was the best thing that could happen.

The server now feels vivid and has returned to a healthy economy.

Sadly, a lot of shortsighted people actually believe that a merge always equals the downfall of the game

which is just plain stupid and from a producers point of view I would even say it's just incompetent thinking.

Companies need to wake up and start making the right decisions for long terms and not just for what's in the gaming headlines tomorrow and maybe the next week...

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Old 10-08-2012, 09:36 AM   #47
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Server mergers are just a short term fix. I was on The Bazaar when Shadowhaven was merged into it. The Bazaar was then merged into Freeport. It increases the population temporarily and generates a lot of ill feeling,mud slinging and name calling for the first few weeks. Eventually the population will exist on a handful of servers with only the diehard players left.

I think the route cause of the current downturn (apart from the Panda expansion that just came out) is the huge amount of choice these days for players. There's little loyalty to one game anymore and the game butterflies just flit around from one game to another. The F2P model has only made it worse. Most players couldn't afford to sub to multiple games, but if they are all F2P, they can go to a different one every night.

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Old 10-09-2012, 10:04 PM   #48
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Actually, if some of the guilds would merge they'd have enough people. The issue isn't population, really. Merging servers won't get peoiple to group. It will not encourage existing guilds to merge with other guilds for a full raidforce. It just adds lag for a while.

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Old 10-10-2012, 02:08 AM   #49
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I support Server Merges they are needed.

Also sony-SOE has super server Tech now which means for PS2 and eq 3 next and games like dc online they be able to have tons more of population per server.

So again I support server merges please.

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Old 10-10-2012, 08:15 AM   #50
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Actually, if some of the guilds would merge they'd have enough people. The issue isn't population, really. Merging servers won't get peoiple to group. It will not encourage existing guilds to merge with other guilds for a full raidforce. It just adds lag for a while.

Saw an interesting solution to this issue on crushbone - might want to look at the voluntary model they are using, no idea how well it works but it is a interesting practice

Merging will do nothing, it just give the ability for more people in one place about the lack of groups

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Old 10-10-2012, 10:33 AM   #51
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It is short sighted to suggest that server merges will 'do nothing'. 

The key point to remember is that server merges are NOT for existing players, they are for NEW players. If, as a new player, I rolled a toon on pretty much any server I would see die hards, and a smattering of new players per server. I'd quickly become disillusioned about the prospect of having to level up alone in a new game to me, and seeing an overall lack of chat, trade and pretty much anything, I'd put my money elsewhere.

If however there were only a couple of servers, I'd have more chance of meeting other new players, and therefore more incentive to stay playing, and to maybe upgrade to gold, and stay.

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Old 10-10-2012, 11:06 AM   #52
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Actually, if some of the guilds would merge they'd have enough people.

Yea, I think this is a better idea than server merges.

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Old 10-10-2012, 11:35 AM   #53
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Freejazzlive wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

Actually, if some of the guilds would merge they'd have enough people.

Yea, I think this is a better idea than server merges.

Again, avoiding the point. New players need to see other new players, and have people to play the earlier game with. 

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Old 10-10-2012, 11:50 AM   #54
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Cagefighter wrote:

Freejazzlive wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

Actually, if some of the guilds would merge they'd have enough people.

Yea, I think this is a better idea than server merges.

Again, avoiding the point. New players need to see other new players, and have people to play the earlier game with. 

I didn't read the OP as a 'raid focused' desire, but since the OP has clarified it to be a 'raider population' issue.  it would indeed help that player to merge as it would give them more guilds to try and skim cream from.

Guk is sure enough dead, we have about 5 decorators in public channels all night talking shop and thats it.

New players? Where?  The corner they have painted themselves into with the lower game, the grouping XP penalty, the overscripted zones is more prohibitive than anything else.

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Old 10-10-2012, 12:23 PM   #55
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Actually, if some of the guilds would merge they'd have enough people. The issue isn't population, really. Merging servers won't get peoiple to group. It will not encourage existing guilds to merge with other guilds for a full raidforce. It just adds lag for a while.

Merging does little, they'll just have even larger pools of people unable to progress cause no one wants to play needed utility classes.

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Old 10-10-2012, 12:37 PM   #56
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Ulrichvon wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

Actually, if some of the guilds would merge they'd have enough people. The issue isn't population, really. Merging servers won't get peoiple to group. It will not encourage existing guilds to merge with other guilds for a full raidforce. It just adds lag for a while.

Merging does little, they'll just have even larger pools of people unable to progress cause no one wants to play needed utility classes.

Actually a few of the better guilds will cherry pick the needed classes from guilds that can't quite get over the hump. Making those few more successful, and shattering the ones that give up the utility players.

It would be wuccessful for the OP.  And there is no reason not to merge at this point since pops are in the toilet.

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Old 10-14-2012, 01:41 PM   #57
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NO NO NO NO NO --- NO MORE SERVER MERGES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Old 10-14-2012, 10:21 PM   #58
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

New players? Where?  The corner they have painted themselves into with the lower game, the grouping XP penalty, the overscripted zones is more prohibitive than anything else.

Even alts are sparse. I've been leveling an alt on AB and in the lower tier zones it's rare to see another player, let alone ever dream of grouping. Once in Stormhold I saw some folks but they were just doing a drive-thru, being powerleveled by a 92 SK. Other than that it is just a rare passing of someone with his mercenary. Level chat, other than 1-9 and 80-89/90, has been dead for so long I don't remember when was the last time anyone ever used them.

Maybe SOE wants to keep the game in an induced coma?

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Old 10-14-2012, 10:53 PM   #59
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it's an 8 year old game. most people with alts have long since gotten them to level cap if it's not a BL or something that thier guild is asking them to level up for a raid spot. most players are in the endgame. it's what happens after 8 years.

merging the servers is not going to magically make it look like there are a bunch of lower level players. it's not going to make people playing alts group up. or seem more common. it's not going to make the super guilds suddenly able to fill out thier rosters with utility classes that are just no fun to play in a raid setting.

all a server merge will do is give everyone a few weeks of headaches as the trolls/jerks estabilish themselves in thier pecking order of annoyance, and give you some more guilds every evening spaming for bards/chanters for thier raidforces.

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Old 10-15-2012, 02:16 PM   #60
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Where should new players go?

New players who want a population with lower level active players have a place to go. It's called Antonia Bayle.

Filling raids

On Crushbone, the guild I raid with regularly fills three solid groups, plus 2-3 more folks who show up late and die a lot in the fourth group. We clear stuff shorthanded and we're in the top ten guilds in raid progression on our server. We really need about five solid players who can commit to the three nights a week our guild raids.

Our big problem, just like everyone else, is that what we NEED are three chanters, one of them an illy, and two dirges, plus maybe a warden. That and 2-3 more DPS would allow us to fill a raid even when one or two people are sick or on vacation or their kids are graduating etc.

I do NOT want a power-leveled chanter. I want a chanter who knows how to play their class with skill and finesse. Same with bards: yeah, you can take a bard on a second account, put it on autofollow to your main or a healer in the raid, and at least get the buffs. But a live, wide-awake, skillful player on that bard contributes a whole lot more to a raid, DPS for starters.

Why I don't have a raid-ready chanter

I have an 82 fury, who I could betray to warden and level. But I'm crispy-fried from playing so long as a healer on my mystic. I also have a 58 illusionist, and I'm about to the point where I'm gonna level her so we have one more power feed in raid.  But I *LOVE* playing my conjy, RP and raid both. She's just awesome wicked fun.

Like everyone else, I have a couple of tanks and a couple of scouts, several flavors of healers, and then there's my stranded warlock and illy who I got halfway leveled and then stopped. I haven't tried either with a mercenary yet, so maybe levelling them won't be so bad.

Analysis

Server merges? NO. The solution to all of this is NOT server merges. People wanting more population can already move themselves to more populated servers. Newbies especially don't need server merges, they just need to roll on high population servers.

Forced grouping? NO. The steady trend in EQ2 has been people whining that mobs are too hard, that grouping is too difficult, wahhh QQ me a river.

Soloing? SOE has responded by making it idiot simple to solo from 1-92.When that wasn't enough to silence the whiners who wanted to solo ^^^ heroics and even raid mobs, SOE introduced mercenaries. There is STILL whining. Dungeon Maker was introduced so people could have soloable dungeons, and no one uses them unless they can use them to mindlessly grind a PL character.

Grouping? For the people QQing about no groups, SOE started with the LFG tag. No one used it. Then SOE dumbed down dungeons so you could run an on-level dungeon with three people pretty easily in decent gear. Nope, not enough. Lately. SOE tried introducing Dungeon Finder, which worked great for one week before people decided they didn't want to randomly group with people who might be /gasp! idiots.

Conclusion

Boys and girls, the problem isn't server population, it isn't grouping, it isn't soloing. The problem is WHINERS. There are good solutions for a number of issues that we could be using and that almost no one chooses to utilize.

Merge Guilds. For raiders especially and also for low-level players, people need to merge guilds with other players who have similar playtimes and playstyles. If we are unwilling to make those merges, stop QQing, it's your own fault.

Ditch "Perfect Groups". Seriously, when your group has to have a tank, a chanter, a bard, a DPS and two specific flavors of healers, you might as well be in a raid. We used to group with weird combos depending on who we could get to come with us, so while we might kill slower, it wasn't FATAL if a group lacked a chanter or a bard, or if you took two tanks, or whatever. Non-ideal groups should be able to play group content, so long as you have at least one tank, one healer, and one DPS, the other three should be able to be ANYTHING.

More Raidwide Utility. It's kind of nuts that a raid, to be really effective, needs such a precise composition. Everything power drains now, so we need ideally four chanters. The DPS needs buffs, so we have a bard in each group. We bitched because it was hard to find a raid role for more than one or two tanks per raid, and now we have scripts that require three or more tanks to really be successful. Since OBVIOUSLY we have more assassins, beastlords, and wizards than we know what to do with, and many fewer chanters and bards, maybe we need chanters and bards to have more raidwide utility.

Don't Dumb Down Content for the Whiners. The other answer would be to dumb down raids so there aren't excessive efffects. ROK was whack-a-mole curing. Now we need whack-a-mole power regen. But I really don't want raids dumbed down. I want them challenging but fun, whoich means it should take you at least a few pulls before you can kill something the first time, but that once everyone groks the strategy and has the feel for the timing, you can kill it.

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