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Old 10-25-2012, 03:40 AM   #1
Shotneedle

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All of the other threads are kind of specific.

Left: I like the line. I think it's swell. But I think it could use some changes. This is what I'm thinking and why.

Poisoned Blades:

Increase the damage of Thug's Poison proc by 25-50% base, lower the proc chance to 50%, and allow it to trigger off any CA as long as you are behind/flanking the target, instead of just the behind/flanking req'd CAs.

Potent Venom:

Remove damage increase. Instead, increase max increments by 1 per rank and add 1 dot tick per rank.

Venom Explosion:

Leave as is, or reduce the trigger chance to 40-50% and allow it to trigger of any CA as long as you are behind/flanking the target instead of just the flanking/behind req'd ones.

Vital Weakness:

Leave as is.

Shred:

Have it dispel all stacks of Thug's Poison when used.

This would allow brigands to trigger the new .75% debuff on adds quickly with their blues, increase their personal dps by a little more than it does now, allow Shred to hit a little harder, give them versatility in strategy; whether to tab to a bunch of high hp mobs in an encounter to maintain 8 poison stacks or constantly Shred a single one, etc.

Middle:

Highwayman's Advance

Why is this debuff even on here, unless it stacks with itself?

Exacting Venom

Trigger chance is bugged, not stacking and remaining 1% no matter how many increments you have up.

Right:

Could you just put on Blinding Dust exactly how high of a chance they have to miss? I also think the endline should be something different too, but I can't think of any good suggestions right now.

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Old 10-25-2012, 04:02 AM   #2
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Would love to be able to have CoE and Sunder, if that could be worked out somehow! SMILEY Im sure every brigand across Norrath would agree
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:23 AM   #3
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In regards to Buffrat's post.

I agree with your suggestion on Poisoned Blades. Even if they leave it as is, it still seems to be decent enough. But it definitely would be nice if they allowed it to trigger off any CA.

Agree with the Potent Venom change, it would definitely support your suggested Poisoned blade change if they did so.

Tbh Venom Explosion seems a little too underwhelming. I love the fact that its a passive aoe, but its proc chance and damage seem a bit too low. (so it could definitely benefit from allowing any CA to trigger it) Overall for me its only roughly doing about 1 to 2 percent of my overall parse at best.

Shred seems like it could have potential, maybe I'm just not understand it completely. Its hard to gauge how many procs of the neccesary prerequisites are up to tell when to use tbh. (unlike with rangers and assassins who have an icon in there temp buff window) I'm also assuming it may need an ACT trigger that works similarly to exploit weakness to have its full potential. I do agree with your suggestion though, and it does make sense to change it that way. Otherwise its not hitting very hard at all. again about 1 to 2 percent of my overall parse at best.

Exacting Venom is still bugged.

Right side -

Completely agree with suggestion on Blinding Dust, its way too unpredictable to gauge.

Might want to also have Natural irritants add an effect where a mobs chance to miss now no longer increased but decreased to correspond with the fact that putting points into this extends the duration of Blinding dust, otherwise there's no point in having Blinding Dust(s) duration increased to have the mob constantly miss on its first attack (defeats the purpose of blinding dust's ability to be a dot)

Overall not bad.

Two cents and I'm out ;p

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Old 10-25-2012, 11:25 AM   #4
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Lethlian wrote:

In regards to Buffrat's post.

I agree with your suggestion on Poisoned Blades. Even if they leave it as is, it still seems to be decent enough. But it definitely would be nice if they allowed it to trigger off any CA.

Agree with the Potent Venom change, it would definitely support your suggested Poisoned blade change if they did so.

Tbh Venom Explosion seems a little too underwhelming. I love the fact that its a passive aoe, but its proc chance and damage seem a bit too low. (so it could definitely benefit from allowing any CA to trigger it) Overall for me its only roughly doing about 1 to 2 percent of my overall parse at best.

Shred seems like it could have potential, maybe I'm just not understand it completely. Its hard to gauge how many procs of the neccesary prerequisites are up to tell when to use tbh. (unlike with rangers and assassins who have an icon in there temp buff window) I'm also assuming it may need an ACT trigger that works similarly to exploit weakness to have its full potential. I do agree with your suggestion though, and it does make sense to change it that way. Otherwise its not hitting very hard at all. again about 1 to 2 percent of my overall parse at best.

Exacting Venom is still bugged.

Right side -

Completely agree with suggestion on Blinding Dust, its way too unpredictable to gauge.

Might want to also have Natural irritants add an effect where a mobs chance to miss now no longer increased but decreased to correspond with the fact that putting points into this extends the duration of Blinding dust, otherwise there's no point in having Blinding Dust(s) duration increased to have the mob constantly miss on its first attack (defeats the purpose of blinding dust's ability to be a dot)

Overall not bad.

Two cents and I'm out ;p

Respectfully,

Lethlian

The problem with Shred in heroic zones is things die too fast. You get a Thug's Poison icon in your maintained to watch, but you can't really stack them easily in heroics with current mechanics.

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Old 10-28-2012, 09:41 PM   #5
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Right side endline should allow any and all back/flanking attacks to be used from any position, permanently.  And add a 4% HP debuff to Sunder...........................  Bout the only thing that could make this line stand a chance.  Give a better reset chance for Mercy too maybe in there.

Or make Thieves Guild raidwide.

Anything would be better than what it is right now (reuse and cast time reduced for our still-garbage temp buffs, Ruthless Cunning and Deceit).  You could make these two temp buffs groupwide and permanent and NO ONE WOULD CARE.'

Overall it seems like SoE ran out of ideas with the rogues' "other" lines.  The right side for Brigs is very Swashy, and the right tree for Swashies is very Briggy.  No clue why, but I guess when one side is so much better it doesn't matter.  Why even have a 2nd tree  /twirl...

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Old 10-29-2012, 04:14 PM   #6
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Brigands have been Neglected since EoF and have been a mediocre class at best. I'd really like to be able to have Sunder and Change of Engagement. work it in somehow SOE its not too much.

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Old 10-29-2012, 05:40 PM   #7
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Try coming up with a reasonable suggestion, Xarc~

But Thug's Poison needs to proc more. Maybe increase the debuff to 1.5%, too.

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Old 10-31-2012, 12:21 AM   #8
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Any chance we could get Safehouse looked at?

It's as unreliable as it is weird.

A cool thing would be to make it a 1min recast teleport, like it is, but make it either an until cancelled buff or a group friend clicky.  Cast it on a priest and use it to joust out when Reflexes is failing.  Or you could cast it on a fighter to joust back in quickly after an aoe hits.  It is way too clunky as it is and is the only skill i know of that behaves the way it does.

And although the death save doesn't always work right I think it's nice to keep on there too.

This shouldn't be too much of a change, just make it easier to use.

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Old 10-31-2012, 07:54 PM   #9
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I second most suggestions in the 1st post.

My comments are on the right side abilities in general.  To begin with, the right prestige tree will be situationally useful at best.  The recast on the ae/mob debuff is waaay to long for the damage it does and the effect it puts on the mob.  The ae avoid for the group sounds ok, but I haven't tested it out in a raid setting yet, but again not something I would sink points into unless the mob was just about the most difficult boss ever.

The final ability for the right side just does not make any sense at all.  To begin with, both buffs are just about as worthless as you can get without putting points into a tradeskill tree to raid.  Second, the right side tree is linked (I hope the trees become unlinked from the previous prestige paths, but that's another story) to the tree that converts multi-attack to crit bonus.  .....what.   Why would that buff, even with reduced cast time and with points to enhance its effect, be of any use linked to a MA to CB conversion tree where it doesn't even often any added benefit to the prestige conversion?

If the final ability for the right side is going to stay, there should be some effect added that fits with the flavor of the rest of the tree.  Right now it just stands out as the oddball prestige ability.

The right side needs serious work or a complete overhaul to even be considered halfway useful as the intended "utility" tree.

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Old 11-02-2012, 12:34 PM   #10
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Brigand

Cover of Darkness is now 2.5 seconds per rank.

Cunning and Deceit now modifies Thieves Guild to gain triggers that increase Crit Bonus. This works in the exact same way as the base effect.

 

 

Hmmm.  7.5s group AE immunity and (guessing) 22.5 cb proc.

 

Wish there was a chance of me taking this line now, just for the endline.

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Old 11-02-2012, 03:25 PM   #11
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Brigands have been Neglected since EoF and have been a mediocre class at best. I'd really like to be able to have Sunder and Change of Engagement. work it in somehow SOE its not too much.

Both rogue's are barely relevant anymore.  I was honestly expecting more attention to them with the expansion.  Fairly dissapointed so far.

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Old 11-02-2012, 03:54 PM   #12
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Ulrichvon wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Brigands have been Neglected since EoF and have been a mediocre class at best. I'd really like to be able to have Sunder and Change of Engagement. work it in somehow SOE its not too much.

Both rogue's are barely relevant anymore.  I was honestly expecting more attention to them with the expansion.  Fairly dissapointed so far.

Yep, weapon damage bonus debuffs, quick ae mit debuffs, and max hp debuffs sure are "barely relevant anymore".

The ae avoid in the right line needs to be changed to something else entirely. If an aoe is actually avoidable in the first place, and 99% of the ones that actually do a decent amount of damage aren't, the brigand already has AR running, the bard has turnstrike, bladedance, and veil of notes, and the healers/mages are probably not in melee ranged of the named. The only time this would be remotely useful is avoiding a red text (again, if it's even avoidable) on a burn, and we already have bladedance, tshell, and equilibrium for that.

Other than that, 30% cb is a nice bonus, but I still think the mit debuff on thug's poison should be doubled (along with the durations on swash/necro 5% debuffs).

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Old 11-03-2012, 05:58 PM   #13
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Now that I think about it, I'm a lil mad that the CB addition to Thieves Guild isnt on the first line on Gang Up. 

Swashies got a massive bump in popularity (and usefulness) when Inspired Daring went groupwide.  Our similar AA gives -nothing- that anyone cares about: 63 DPS mod and 57 Haste do not add much to the group, even if they were permanent buffs.

At least make Gang Up modify Thieves Guild to use on more than one target and use a Concentration slot.  More targets would be nice so I stop hearing the BL or assassin or swashy or monk clucking at me about who "deserves" the buff.  This way it also doesn't add anything to our personal DPS (like Inspired Daring) but helps our utility.

Oh yeah and double the % on Vital Weakness for Pete's sake.  It is what our class is made for, and honestly it isn't an easy buff to consistently keep up (with the back/flanking requirement).  I LOVE the idea of this buff, but I dislike the magnitude of it as well as the application.  Procing on all attacks and around 5 or 6% would be almost make me forget that I'm playing a cruddy T2 DPS class.

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Old 11-05-2012, 02:18 PM   #14
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Brigands have been Neglected since EoF and have been a mediocre class at best. I'd really like to be able to have Sunder and Change of Engagement. work it in somehow SOE its not too much.

Both rogue's are barely relevant anymore.  I was honestly expecting more attention to them with the expansion.  Fairly dissapointed so far.

Yep, weapon damage bonus debuffs, quick ae mit debuffs, and max hp debuffs sure are "barely relevant anymore".

Sadly I'm seeing very little raidwide damage difference running a brig vs yet another BL.  As in the aggregate raidwide is nearly the same.  As long as everyone else is hitting debuffs, the addition of the brig mit debuffs just isn't making a very meaningful difference on dps numbers.

I can see melee class damage go up with the class, I just don't see it significantl enough to justify running it vs a pure dps in the same slot.

When all timers became unmodifiable, and the rogue classes got basically nothing added to them to compensate for that, they've become less and less relevant to a raid force.

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Old 11-05-2012, 05:39 PM   #15
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Just so you know, the CB proc added to Thieves Guild is 12 and 18.  Yeah 30 CB on Thieves Guild.

Dang you SoE.  Dang you...

You are asking me to turn down ~50-60 CB or take what is clearly more beneficial to my raid force.  Again.  I think I hate you, seriously.

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Old 11-07-2012, 01:39 AM   #16
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BrigandExacting Venom has had its damage slightly reduced.  Was probably not taking this anyway, so w/eVenom Explosion has had its damage increased substantially.  Awesome.  Reads 3897-6496 for me now--for comparison's sake, bout the same damage as Pirate Stab.Thug's Poison has had its damage increased substantially.  Also awesome.  Reads 5110-8517 initially and 852-1419 on the tick.  Still wish it proc'd more or on all attacks but I guess it's ok.Vital Weakness has had its value increased to 0.5% per rank.  Amazing, this kinda makes this Line impossible not to take.  Try and tell your guildies they could do 7.5% more damage---but you aren't taking it cuz you wanna deeps more.  See what happens...Blinding Dust now has 3 increments base and lasts for 8 seconds. The damage has been greatly increased.  Reads 13656-21568..  Hits every bit as hard as Cornered.  Wow.  Also it reads 9s for me due to Tenure.Poisoned Powder has had its damage greatly increased.  No idea how much this adds reallyCunning and Deception now grants 8 Crit Bonus and 14 Crit Bonus per effect.  Sensible nerf here, matches the Potency of TG Natural Irritants now applies a short duration automatic detaunt to the brigands group when using Blinding Dust.  Not sure this makes sense but it now reads, "Following the use of Blinding Dust, the group will have automatically reduce their threat with their targets by 33% of the damage they inflict.  Does not apply to fighters."   Does this apply to group's current hate or the hate the group will do over the next 9 seconds?  Kinda weak either way.

Gotta say I feel both trees are pretty strong.  Not sure how they compare to other DPS classes, which I guess is what really matters.  If they give us 100k more DPS but everyone else 200k it's weak but we'll see.

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Old 11-08-2012, 05:20 PM   #17
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Thug's Poison needs SOMETHING to tell you how many increments you have.  My base UI on beta tells me nothing except that there is one running.  This is a MAJOR flaw when you are trying to time when is the best time to use your Shred ability...

I shouldnt have to use a UI mod to make this spell worth having...Hopefully Drums has this functionality.

EDIT: Found where it says my increment.  In the TINY target window effects it shows a 1-5 over the icon.  This is how we are meant to use this?  C'Mon guys.

Also if it works like I think, the debuff refreshes at 5 every time you proc the Poison instead of having 5 separate stacks.  This makes it easier to maintain, but it makes the target window impossible to use because it doesnt have a timer.  My Maintained window has a timer, but not an increment.

Also with how this works, would it be too powerful if Thug's Poison proc'd 100% of the time we use a behind attack?  Would make it easier to maintain (as it is going to be a major boon to the raid, and the reliablity of the skill is 3/4 of the time...).

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:57 PM   #18
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I see it in maintained fine. But I think the idea was to have the stacks appear on the buff in the first place, but doesn't work like they intended.

Also pretty sure the debuff doesn't increment and is locked at 1.5% total (which is still good).

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Old 11-08-2012, 09:03 PM   #19
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I see it in maintained fine. But I think the idea was to have the stacks appear on the buff in the first place, but doesn't work like they intended.

Also pretty sure the debuff doesn't increment and is locked at 1.5% total (which is still good).

How can you tell this?

1.5% sounds very weak to me.  Wow.

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Old 11-08-2012, 11:30 PM   #20
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2 million dps from auto attack on a single target (~300k bl/preds, ~250 rogues, 200 dirge, 150 troub/inq/mystic/warden, 100 chanters, and tanks depend...2 million total is a safe bet, if not a little low) / 1.5 * 1.515 = +20k rw dps. Just from auto attacks. Probably about +30k rw dps total (in a raid like mine). It's pretty balanced for where it is in the tree.

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Old 11-09-2012, 06:39 PM   #21
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Honestly I'm kinda of torn on which side to take with brigands. While I like the new passive procs of the left side and the addition of gaining two more CA's to my casting order....its just hard to tell if its going to be enough to overcome the benefit of the CB conversion on the right side and now the CB (even after nerf) proc on TG...

It just feels like I'm only going down the left side to get the shanegains update and Thug's Poison....but thugs poison isn't modified by ability modifier anymore. I still don't trust Venom Explosion yet (as the first time I tested it out, it seemed very underwhelming dps wise) but then again I haven't tried it now with the newer increase to its damage. I like the idea of shred, buts its still a bit tricky to make sure you can see it in the maintained window efficiently enough to know when to cast it.

I like the prestiges that they're giving us, but yet at the same time it still feels like it could use a little more polishing up. (but tbh it feels like allot of other classes need to have the same polishing up/finishing touches done as well)

I suppose intially for now I'm still going to go down the complete left side atm. The only way to really tell now (for me at least) is to just end up playing it on live and see how it fans out.

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Old 11-09-2012, 09:00 PM   #22
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Lethlian wrote:

Honestly I'm kinda of torn on which side to take with brigands. While I like the new passive procs of the left side and the addition of gaining two more CA's to my casting order....its just hard to tell if its going to be enough to overcome the benefit of the CB conversion on the right side and now the CB (even after nerf) proc on TG...

It just feels like I'm only going down the left side to get the shanegains update and Thug's Poison....but thugs poison isn't modified by ability modifier anymore. I still don't trust Venom Explosion yet (as the first time I tested it out, it seemed very underwhelming dps wise) but then again I haven't tried it now with the newer increase to its damage. I like the idea of shred, buts its still a bit tricky to make sure you can see it in the maintained window efficiently enough to know when to cast it.

I like the prestiges that they're giving us, but yet at the same time it still feels like it could use a little more polishing up. (but tbh it feels like allot of other classes need to have the same polishing up/finishing touches done as well)

I suppose intially for now I'm still going to go down the complete left side atm. The only way to really tell now (for me at least) is to just end up playing it on live and see how it fans out.

Respectfully,

Lethlian

Yeah I think they did a great job balancing the two sides with both Rogues tbh.  The left side is going to add more single target damage while the right side will give us an AoE bigger than anything a Warlock has. 

I also don't like how clunky Thug's Poison and Shred are to use, I guess because they are new to me and I havent prcticed with them.  Trying to maintain at least one increment of Thug's Poison on an AoE fight will also be fail because you will ruin your Shred damage--and plus think of how much fun tracking down multiple backsides will be in a crowd, only to have multiple back attacks fail to proc the Poison at all.

I think a couple things need to happen before this goes live

1)Shred needs to not activate until you do have 5 stacks of Thug's poison applied

2)Multiple stacks of Poison on multiple mobs should count towards your Shred's damage (ie if I poison 5 different mobs in an encounter, the 5 stacks should still apply.)

3)I still say the 1.5% is REALLY weak.  In comparison, Swashies can get 5% for 12 seconds on a 45s recast temp.  Which would you rather have?  I know I'd rather have the temporary 5% (plus that skill is a MASSIVE combat art, should hit for 300k in raids like our AoE).

4)If you won't concede that 1.5% is too low, then Thug's Poison should land on 100% of back attacks or 75% of ALL attacks.  Otherwise it just gets stupid.

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