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Old 06-21-2005, 02:54 AM   #1
Poochymama

 
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To be honest I dont even have a guardian so im not biased. I do have a bruiser and my friend has a monk. But the way it is on test servers right now and soon to be on the normal servers Monks tank better than guardians. They have around 42-45% mitigation and 85% avoidance, while Guardians have about 50% mitigation and 25% avoidance. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]  5% more mitigation for 60% less avoidance this seems very unbalanced. Not to mention that Monks do twice as much dmg.
 
 Im not posting this because i have a guardian and want him to be uber. I dont even have a guardian. But this needs to be done for the good of the game. Let me put it to you in numbers.
 
A mob hits you 100 times for 100 dmg unmitigated.
 
This is how the monk would come out of the battle he would avoid 85 hits take 15 hits ( 85% av) He would mitigate each of those hits down to about 55 dmg with (45% mit) taking a total of 15 hits for 55 dmg each for a grand total of dmg 825 dmg
 
Now lets take a look at the Guardian
 
The Guardian would only avoid 25 hits with 25% av you he would take 75 hits total. Now he will Mitigate the hits to about 45 dmg with 55% mit. So he will get hit a total of 75 times for 45 dmg each. He would take a Grand total of 3375 dmg.
 
So monk takes 825 dmg and Guardian takes 3375 dmg. Does that seem fair?
 
Not to mention the monk killed his twice as fast so he took only half those hits.
 
So the totals for dmg should look more like this
 
Guard=3375 dmg
Monk =412  dmg
 
What do you guys think. Am i crazy or is it heavily skewed in the Monks favor?
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Old 06-21-2005, 04:04 AM   #2
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There is a reason it's called the Test server.
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Old 06-21-2005, 04:43 AM   #3
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Nacoa wrote:
There is a reason it's called the Test server.




I know its on the test server. But i posted this on the Monk forums and they said that they tought guardian avoidance could even be lower. They also said that monks needed to have more health along with all this other stuff while still doing twice the dps.
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Old 06-21-2005, 04:46 AM   #4
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Please go away Poochymama p.  All you are doing is trying to incite a flame war.  Thanks for bringing the information, but your last comment is just begging to get a flame war started.  We have had enough of those on these forums and don't need any more.

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Old 06-21-2005, 05:00 AM   #5
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Macross_JR wrote:

Please go away Poochymama p.  All you are doing is trying to incite a flame war.  Thanks for bringing the information, but your last comment is just begging to get a flame war started.  We have had enough of those on these forums and don't need any more.




Im not trying to start a flame war. Im trying to help you guys out. If these changes go live Guardians will no longer be the main tank. Monks and bruisers will. I hope that you realize this.
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Old 06-21-2005, 05:04 AM   #6
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Poochymama p wrote:

Nacoa wrote:There is a reason it's called the Test server.

I know its on the test server. But i posted this on the Monk forums and they said that they tought guardian avoidance could even be lower.

And I agree with them.  Guardian avoidance should be even lower.  But guardian mitigation should be massive. My guardian should tank like a rock.  Just standing there getting banged on but not really getting hurt by it. My monk (buiser) should tank like Yoda in Ep 2.  Bouncing all over the place like a superball. Everything on test is massively changing still.  You should not base anything on the current stats.
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Old 06-21-2005, 05:39 AM   #7
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Nacoa wrote:


Poochymama p wrote:


Nacoa wrote:
There is a reason it's called the Test server.




I know its on the test server. But i posted this on the Monk forums and they said that they tought guardian avoidance could even be lower.

And I agree with them.  Guardian avoidance should be even lower.  But guardian mitigation should be massive.

My guardian should tank like a rock.  Just standing there getting banged on but not really getting hurt by it.
My monk (buiser) should tank like Yoda in Ep 2.  Bouncing all over the place like a superball.

Everything on test is massively changing still.  You should not base anything on the current stats.



I agree with you totally I think it would be fair to lower guardians avoidance as long as they up the mitigation. I tried to explain this on the monk forums but they refused to accept it saying that guardians mitigation was already much to high even though it was only 5-10% higher than theirs, while their avoidance is 55-60% higher than Guardians. If Guardians Avoidance stayes at around 25% I think  Monks mitigation should come down to about that. And Guardians Mitigation should rise to match monks avoidance. So it would look like Mit/Av Guard = 85/25 Monk = 25/85 Instead of Guard = 50/25 Monk = 40/85.
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Old 06-21-2005, 07:59 AM   #8
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Dear Guardians,

Pooch isn't posting here to incite a flame war at all, quite the opposite.  But there is a very influencial minority of Monks/Bruisers who apparently want your job.

I am not among those.  I do not want to tank raid mobs, but there are some L50 Brawlers pushing to redefine our roll in that way. 

Might be in your interest to check out what they are trying to do and protect yourselves.

Anyway, it is up to you guys....

Message Edited by lagerone on 06-22-2005 03:06 PM

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Old 06-21-2005, 08:07 AM   #9
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lagerone wrote:

Dear Guardians,

Pooch isn't posting here to incite a flame war at all, quite the opposite.  But there is a very influencial minority of Monks/Guardians who apparently want your job.

I am not among those.  I do not want to tank raid mobs, but there are some L50 Brawlers pushing to redefine our roll in that way. 

Might be in your interest to check out what they are trying to do and protect yourselves.

Anyway, it is up to you guys....




This is old news, they have been lobbying for this since the agility nerf.   /shrug

Judging from board traffic and in game traffic, no one really even cares anymore I do not think   heh

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Old 06-21-2005, 08:23 AM   #10
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Yeah pooch it does seem a bit one sided.But mitigation while tanking will always be more important than avoidence and it always has.I'm sure if monks are getting more avoidence they will get way less mitigation and vice versa for tanks.Also Knights and Breserkers will be affected by this not just guardians.If memory serves me correct what type of decrease you get in avoidence/mitigation comes from the armor type.Like light armor with give 15% avoidence while getting -15% mitigation,while heavy would give +15% to mitigation while giveing -15 avoidence.If SoE leaves mitigation the same at 51% with full ebon while giveing me 25% avoidence.This would just be to much idoicy form SoE to bare and i will retire my guardian.

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Old 06-21-2005, 10:56 AM   #11
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I remember how bad warriors got screwed in eqlive.  took SoE for ever to make them somewhat better.  I wont wait that long, vanguard well be out soon...
 
 
 
ALL tanks should be able to tank epic mobs,  Guardians should just be first choice. 
 
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Old 06-21-2005, 11:08 AM   #12
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TBH on raids the raid mob will be hitting you so much that avoidence won't make as bigger difference as mitigation will, and also guardians have the most amount of taunts making it much easier than other classes to hold agro.
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Old 06-21-2005, 04:03 PM   #13
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i'm happy with 90% mitig, 50% avoidance fully buffed in raid, it's almost even better hehe.

more small hits (less avoid with high mitig) makes reactive trigger more often which means more heals!SMILEY.

MotM comes to mind, 20 adds hitting for 15 dmg, MT's hp bar nevers goes does hehe.

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Old 06-21-2005, 07:16 PM   #14
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After they remove/reduce buff stacking the tanks should be more even.... But last official post dealy I read said that guards would be like 20-30% avoidance.. and that mitigations would rise by some 33% on armor or something... *shrug* They should just really make some raid mobs more.. hit for less, but hit more.
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Old 06-21-2005, 09:33 PM   #15
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Yes the Idea I think is the get hit for less but more often got plate/vanguard wearers.  But there is another downside that no one mentioned inthis thread (iknow it has been before in others) but its is if I am going to get hit most of the time they will have to change how stuns work on the plate wearing fighters.  Because if not, I will spend too much time stunned and not enough time tanking in any capacity.  Heck even now some mobs stun the heck out of me .lol
 
 
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Old 06-21-2005, 09:41 PM   #16
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ScrumplesTheBear wrote:
Like light armor with give 15% avoidence while getting -15% mitigation,while heavy would give +15% to mitigation while giveing -15 avoidence.


 


I hope this is the way it turns out. Because right now light armor gives -10% to mitigation + 60%.
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Old 06-21-2005, 09:57 PM   #17
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I'm just waiting for sony to do to monks in this game what they did to them in EQ1 then we will have our revenge
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Old 06-21-2005, 10:49 PM   #18
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Didn't they recently reverse that monk nerf? (in EQL, I mean)

Message Edited by SmakenDahed on 06-21-2005 02:49 PM

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Old 06-22-2005, 08:10 PM   #19
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Yes but itemization is not broke to the degree it was when they instituted the fix.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:26 PM   #20
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Poochymama p wrote:
To be honest I dont even have a guardian so im not biased. I do have a bruiser and my friend has a monk. But the way it is on test servers right now and soon to be on the normal servers Monks tank better than guardians. They have around 42-45% mitigation and 85% avoidance, while Guardians have about 50% mitigation and 25% avoidance. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]  5% more mitigation for 60% less avoidance this seems very unbalanced. Not to mention that Monks do twice as much dmg.
 
What do you guys think. Am i crazy or is it heavily skewed in the Monks favor?



Uhh...youre crazy.
 
I live on test, got a guardian there, level 22.
 
I am in pristine handcrafted carbonite plate, have 59 agi.  Mit is 40.4, Avoidance is 55.6 unbuffed
 
Exactly at what point can I expect to lose half my avoidance?
 
Dont pull numbers out of thin air.  Its bad form.
 
*edit* bad spelling and worser grammar
 

Message Edited by Sunrayn on 06-22-2005 11:29 AM

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Old 06-22-2005, 09:23 PM   #21
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I don't play on test, so I can't comment. But I will say that if Guards with current game mechanics end up with a bit more mitigation, and a lot less avoidance, then we will be hurting. Will this happen? I don't know. Reducing damage is nice, but totally being un-damaged and un-affected by a hit is also key. This discussion is in fact... so last month, no wait the month before last. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=10344&view=by_date_ascending&page=1
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Old 06-22-2005, 10:00 PM   #22
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I honestly don't have any idea where your getting the 50%ish mitigation mines usually higher than that in most solo situations not sure on the exact number not to mentions mosts monks duel wield therefore the subject themselves to more riposte damage than a guardian who in most tanking situations uses a shield and a one handed weapon, this whole thing is silly actually
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Old 06-23-2005, 12:58 AM   #23
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Don't trust the numbers on test.  If I remember correctly it only has a small portion of the combat changes in place.

 

Guardians should have high mitigation and low avoidance.

Monks should have low mitigation and high avoidance.

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Old 06-23-2005, 02:40 AM   #24
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It's not really that surprising is it?

Brawlers already have :

DPS equal to that of a scout

Higher avoidance than anyone

Able to tank as well as a plate wearer in everyday group situations

The ability to heal themselves and feign death

Their own perosonal line of armor (which no one else has)

Hmm, I wonder if any of the developers/GMs play bralwers?

My sources tell me YES!!!

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Old 06-23-2005, 09:14 AM   #25
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I bought some insurance, I have a guardian and a monk.  :smileyvery-happy:

 

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Old 06-23-2005, 10:17 AM   #26
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lagerone wrote:

Dear Guardians,

Pooch isn't posting here to incite a flame war at all, quite the opposite.  But there is a very influencial minority of Monks/Bruisers who apparently want your job.

I am not among those.  I do not want to tank raid mobs, but there are some L50 Brawlers pushing to redefine our roll in that way. 

Might be in your interest to check out what they are trying to do and protect yourselves.

Anyway, it is up to you guys....


I was here before you talking about these same things, and I'll be here after you.  The "influencial minority" of the brawler forums (two of which got invited by SOE to the CS) have been talking about some sort of tanking equality (as in us not getting one hit by raid mobs) since January.

So get over yourself and your crusade as if you are some new found herald trying to rid the town of some menace.

Besides, I don't want to nerf guardians, one of my best friends in game is one.  I just want to be able to tank, since I'm a fighter.  They are going to lower our DPS anyway; so I think getting some tanking ability in exchange is a lot better than getting the shaft.

I love this thread though, its been awhile since we've had one of these.

Oh, and I always get a kick out of reading your old posts in the Berserker forums:


lagerone wrote:
I need to reroll now but i'm not sure what class to pick - what is now the highest DPS fighter class?
 
Would it be Bruiser or Shadowknight (and no, I dont want to play a scout)?
 
What is now intended to be the highest DPS fighter - I do not want to make another mistake.
 
 
Alucia
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Najena


You ever going to figure out that fighters aren't meant to be DPS?  Maybe you'll be rolling that scout after all SMILEY

Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 06-22-2005 11:35 PM

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Old 06-23-2005, 11:36 PM   #27
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Well, Poochymama, since you decided to cross-post, I'll follow along.First off, the Big Combat Revamp is turned off on the Test server "right now." If you're seeing Guardians on Test with 25% Avoidance right now then the Guardians are doing something screwy because they're operating under the same combat rules as Live. You don't see Guardians on Live with 25% Avoidance right now, do you?Secondly, don't exaggerate. Monks do not kill mobs twice as fast as Guardians. It doesn't happen when soloing (unless the Guardian doesn't know what s/he's doing) and it particularly doesn't happen when grouping (with the Guardian or Monk tanking), as other party members' DPS diminishes the difference between Monks and Guardians significantly. Therefore, Monks don't take half the number of strikes that Guardians do, they take maybe 4/5, or at most, 3/4 of the strikes Guardians do.Finally, I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but you should go back and question them. There will be a 15% base difference in Mitigation between Heavy and Light armor. If the Monk had about 45% Mitigation then the Guardian should have had around 60% Mitigation; if the Guardian had about 50% Mitigation then the Monk should have had around 35% Mitigation. Since the spell/CA changes haven't even hit Test yet the difference should be even bigger as Guardians currently get more Mitigation buffs than Monks do (in fact, I don't think a Monk gets any Mitigation buffs, save the one that stuns them while it's up, the Face of the Mountain line).Don't go quoting numbers that are obviously wrong about a system that is currently turned off and then exaggerate about the results; it only decreases your credibility.
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Old 06-24-2005, 12:16 AM   #28
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Its like living in a apartment building, and the people are across the hallway are always fighting, yelling and partying.  And sometimes the riftraft rolls through your door and land in your living room, spilling beer all over the carpet and flicking ashes in the floor.

Get yer redkneck brawler arses up off our carpet before we call the cops.    Cant you all maintain?  :smileyhappy:

 

And get out of the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] pretzels and go home, no, we dont have any old milwaukees best...

 
 
again, poochymomma, I agree totally, but, this topic has been beat to death a hundred times..  Go search the guard forums, tons of threads complete with spitting' eye gouging, points, counter points, sarcasm and whitty remarks..
Nothing changed since then, and most opinions are probably still the same.
 
 

 

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Old 06-24-2005, 12:26 AM   #29
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uglak wrote:

Its like living in a apartment building, and the people are across the hallway are always fighting, yelling and partying. And sometimes the riftraft rolls through your door and land in your living room, spilling beer all over the carpet and flicking ashes in the floor.Get yer redkneck brawler arses up off our carpet before we call the cops. Cant you all maintain?


ROFLMAO! SMILEY
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Old 06-24-2005, 12:28 AM   #30
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Whats up man, still got the zerker/monk thing going?   I take it you still havent broke out a guardian yet?

 

But, glad to see you still around.

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