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Old 11-02-2015, 02:52 PM   #181
Estarion

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I'm looking at it from another angle. There is 2 weeks till expansion goes to live and there is still no changes to beastlord. CAs becomes stronger? But it's general scout updates. Beastlord didn't get class specific updates only because there is nothing for him planned. How the things works? Firstly there must be a plan what to do. Secondly it goes to testing area, and last it goes to live after all feedback and precise tunning. We were believe that they had a plan which they would reveal for us in beta to let us test it then and provide a feedback, but now we are at beta and there is nothing. Sure there is a small chance that bl changes will hit beta right before its shutdown or even straightly to live. But I hardly believe this will happen.
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Old 11-02-2015, 03:16 PM   #182
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I tell you more - situation is exactly the same that was in previous beta. When all scouts got their poison boost and we beastlords were waiting right till the bitter end and got nothing except our pet stops dying constantly. But even this wasn't a BL specific change - they just specify raid scripts to not hit the pet. But, for example they forgot to add the same string to contested ossuary several named's scripts, where pet's fate is only in healers hand. Also pet's mana is near zero almost all fight and no advantage procs then. Lol. Beastlord's dps is depending from whether pet has mana or not. Exactly because ticking dot somehow applies to the pet there. Sometimes I think devs just hates beastlord. They hate it because it's too complicated for them. The structure is very different and there is no way to copy/paste fixes as for others. But is it our fault? They launched it and even got some money for it.
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Old 11-02-2015, 04:56 PM   #183
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Awesome post. You should post this in the live forums. I knew something was wrong on Beta when my Hemo averages were still at AOM level on single targets even though my AGI and Potency were exceeding 20K and 2.3K.
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Old 11-02-2015, 05:53 PM   #184
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Noxious Symphony Bug -
Last night I cast Noxious Symphony while raiding and got a message across my screen multiple times saying "Concentrated Symphony has been upgraded and must be recast". The buff increases the nox resist despite the message. I logged in this morning to test it again and I got the message across the screen twice every time I zoned but the resist remains.
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Old 11-02-2015, 08:07 PM   #185
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Hemotoxin stops scaling after 1200 cb/pot. I assume it broke when trying to fix finisher applying as final ability damage. Here's some data. All tests were run with static gear and the Agi->pot/cb prestige removed. The multiplier is obtained from the standard damage formula, while ignoring any class specific multipliers or final ability damage, as they would cancel out in the final ratio comparison.


Multiplier = (floor((log(Agi,2)*0.28-1.2)*100,0.01)/100)*(1+pot)*(1.5+cb)

The ratio is obtained by comparing it to an arbitrary static amount, in this case Trial 1.

[IMG]

This clearly shows that the scaling hits a dead stop past a certain point, possibly additional bleedover from the new CB hard cap. It would be great if this were addressed and fixed so us non-bl scout dps can go back to complaining that we need to pay for our dps. Thanks.
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Old 11-02-2015, 08:20 PM   #186
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I don't want poisons being a huge contributor, but it shouldn't be useless either since many AA's and 'balance' is based on it, and it should definitely scale properly with equipment upgrades.
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Old 11-02-2015, 08:38 PM   #187
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I agree. The finisher acting as final ability damage and being able to be triple stacked was definitely a problem, but if it follows the regular scaling scheme, it should be much more under control. I hope.
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Old 11-02-2015, 10:42 PM   #188
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Hate transfer? But we already have it...from the tips of our sharp pointy objects!

But seriously, this is something that many brigs have been wanting for a very long time. Maybe the devs will relent and give brigs what they want, but I doubt it. They will say that they already gave us a hate transfer when brigs got the prestige AA Mercy or Anger. Yes, I would like a constant hate transfer skill. Maybe not to the extent that an assassin gets it, though.
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Old 11-02-2015, 10:47 PM   #189
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Giving brigs a hate transfer would make them even more essential that they already are. It'd make more sense to just give their detaunts a boost.
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Old 11-02-2015, 11:58 PM   #190
Nidy

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Get rid of the stupid poisons already. Up the CA's to make up the difference whatever that percent is for all the scouts.

Nidy
Brigand
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Old 11-03-2015, 02:24 AM   #191
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Amen x infinity
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Old 11-03-2015, 04:47 AM   #192
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I retract this statement. The more I see while grouping with sins and rangers the more I regret ever saying that. I seen a sin triple my aoe parse today in raid.
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:20 AM   #193
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Would appreciate some hate x-fer for my brig !
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Old 11-03-2015, 03:14 PM   #194
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I'm waiting for someone to come back in here and ask for the swashbuckler's AA "Reach" again.

Take the few "good" things that swashbucklers have that is unique to the class, and give them to everyone else! =/
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Old 11-03-2015, 04:17 PM   #195
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Surely Max HP debuffs are very important; but not uniquely so. There is an equivalent amount of percent dps increase that does the same. I was looking at guilds last Precipice (Karana) parse to cull some numbers.

Karana ~ 40,000 million HP; fight time 5 mins, average dps on Karana 133 mdps (million dps). Adds neglected just looking at single target part:

So Case 1: ranger debuff 5% HP, with same raid dps:

Karana 38,000 mil HP/133 mdps = 285.7 sec fight

Case2: no ranger debuff but raid dps +10%

Karana 40,000/146.3 = 273.4 sec fight; so 10% dps increase for this mob/fight length is clearly better here.

Case 3: no ranger debuff; what raid increase in dps is needed to compensate?

taking the 285.7 sec it took with the ranger (Case 1) we would need 40,000/285.7 = 140 mdps; an increase in raid dps of 140/133 = 5.2%

So for this encounter, with 40,000 HP and a nominal raid average dps (named dps only) of 133 mdps, we would need a 5.2% dps increase to named to equal the 5% max HP debuff. Also as baseline dps increases, further % damage increases would favor dps increase over HP debuff.
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Old 11-03-2015, 04:29 PM   #196
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From what I'm seeing currently in raids:

WDB needs to be uncapped by another 100 to 150, and total CA damage increased by 7%

OR total CA damage needs a boost of 13-14% if no WDB raise.

If Hemo's were allowed to increase naturally again, then the CA damage increases would be less, but non-hemo scouts would still need the increases as above.
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Old 11-03-2015, 07:27 PM   #197
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Good post. So one swashy with the increase in elemental damage (raid), raidwide scout/tank damage rating and now the swash class cloak that increases all damage to target, should make up that difference. Not to mention what the swash is bringing to raidwide VC's and their own personal dps. Bards benefit substantially from swashies now. I won't speculate on a percentage but when you factor in the swash dps it becomes a no brainer. I'm not convinced swashies will catch rangers and sins this xpac, but it's certainly worth testing what they bring to overall raidwide dps.

It would be nice if they gave swashies one more thing to seal the deal, a change in Marauder's Vaunt, from scouts and fighters to a general raidwide buff that everyone benefits from.
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Old 11-03-2015, 09:08 PM   #198
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My calculations are not misguided at all. I made no assumption where the additional dps would come from; only indicated how much would be required to compensate for the absence of, or be equivalent to, the HP debuff.

You are correct in raid you would want both of course. I'm only trying to calculate the equivalency between dps increase and hp debuff.

In the case of the Karana raid, my guild did 133 mdps on Karana over the duration of the fight. Therefore in that case there is a sound basis for calculating what, say 2, 5, or 10% dps increase will do regardless of the source of the increase. And to be clear, we are talking about total raid dps increase, not say, a specific 3-4% elemental increase from Swashes.

Zues gave the opinion that Swashes would meet the threshold, however, it remains to be seen, in the case of Swashbucklers, how much they incrementally contribute to raid dps and if that warrants consideration in a raid. If they can't get close to 5% (for this anecdotal case vs Karana) Ranger utility will remain predominant.
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Old 11-03-2015, 09:28 PM   #199
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It's just the fact that casting a Max Health Debuff requries no skill whatsoever and is on a Duration that's longer than the recast of the ability that casts that debuff, where as a Increase Damage debuff requires the players that benefit from it to use their abilities properly and this specifically requires skill whereas the other doesn't.
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Old 11-03-2015, 09:30 PM   #200
Cian4ik

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Dear Developers!
If you decide to do that all dpsing CA's
Maybe You can change the auto-attack mechanics, that it is not interrupted by the CA's (mage's focus mechanics for expl?)
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Old 11-03-2015, 10:08 PM   #201
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In agreement with above....

If you want to take the passive damage away from scouts, don't force us to time our autoattacks during god awful raid lag. Wouldn't mind if raid lag was addressed, but removing the interrupts will be a quicker and easier solution. Not even sure why wands get that special treatment either
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Old 11-03-2015, 10:47 PM   #202
ZUES

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Agreed 100% on missing autoattacks due to casting combat abilities. That mechanic should be eliminated completely.
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Old 11-03-2015, 11:06 PM   #203
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It's not just the 3-4% elemental damage increase (which is up 100% of the time btw), it's a combination of things that the swashy can bring. There is still room for improvement but based on what we see on beta...

1. Double Cross increases all elemental damage to target. 36 second duration with 5 second recast. I'm not grandmastered on beta because of the beta buffer reset all my CA's to all expert. But I'm assuming it's 3-4%.

2. Marauder's Vaunt increases Final Ability Damage for all scouts and fighters raidwide. The beta buffer reset my spells to expert (grrrr!) so I don't know what the grandmaster % is but expert is 9.33%. 13 second duration, 2:38 recast.

3. Swashy class cloak increase ALL damage to target with Flurry of Blades (a CA that is always in), which already has a nice physical damage debuff. I posted screenies of the cloak but I do not have it personally so don't know the exact numbers on Flurry of Blades damage increase. 30 second duration, 15 second recast.

4. They share many of the same debuffs as the brig. Ofcoarse there is no Dispatch but Swash still has an HP debuff. Change of Engagement in the heroic line is 5.2%. 45 second duration, 15.7 recast.

5. The swashies have a little bit better Swipe than brigs. Both can keep it in nearly 100% of the time though.

Based on what I'm seeing in raid you can't ignore the fact that even though swashies are putting up pretty good numbers in aoe fights, you would be losing dps if you replaced a sin or ranger. So now you have to weigh what they bring based on 1-5. THEN consider what they are doing for bards charging VC's. The entire raid benefits from larger VC's so that's another dps increase.

If running 2 swashies, double 1-5 because they stack.
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Old 11-04-2015, 12:22 AM   #204
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Nice attempt guys. Time is limited so picking up on the major errors before I yell at the fighters some more.

%hp debuffs are not a linear curve, and rangers are not the only class with %hp debuffs.
i.e. The encounter duration is way different in a shift from 70->65% vs. 100->95% max health.

Re do your calculations and I'll review them later! [edit] Short hand math does not show swashies as favorable.
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Old 11-04-2015, 12:49 AM   #205
Reevar

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Caith can we get a hint if there are some beast ability changes heading to Beta like the bards and swashies got? I was hoping to see some today but Nada.

And Koko ... Don't say it ... I already know what you are going to say.
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Old 11-04-2015, 12:49 AM   #206
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Right, not disputed your assessment. I was only trying to demonstrate the rough equivalence of a 5% HP debuff (in isolation) as compared with an increment in dps. As you imply, game non-linearity will obfuscate things when considering, say, the effect of stacking other HP debuffs, other variables affecting dps, overlapping dps buff/debuffs, etc..

It is raid time have to go; I'll redo with same baseline HP and dps, and assume a 30% HP debuff (w/o ranger) and repeat with a 35% debuff (w/ ranger) later.

Preliminary calc indicates that to get an equivalent dps increase to the (ranger) 5% HP debuff, (when applying 30% HP debuff of other classes 1st), i.e 30% HP to 35% HP debuff, would require ~7.7% increase in raid dps. Will post calc later.
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Old 11-04-2015, 01:13 AM   #207
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Thanks! Look forward to it.
Helping the best I can with limited time. Classes with %hp debuffs from memory;
Brawlers, Mystic, Defiler, Templar, Brigand, Assassin, Ranger, Shadowknight, Necromancer Beastlord

Assassin is semi maintainable (might change with ethereal). To the best of my knowledge the rest are maintainable.
30% is low ish (assassin/brigand/templar/mystic/defiler), 35~40 includes sk/necro/brawler.
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Old 11-04-2015, 01:28 AM   #208
ZUES

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Old 11-04-2015, 01:43 AM   #209
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Doesn't stack with brigand, if it did things would be drastically different (if it helps, I wish swashys had one q_q).
On the same note, bruiser doesn't stack with monk.

To clarify the %hp debuffs stack linearly, just ask Fatality! (^~!)
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Old 11-04-2015, 02:24 AM   #210
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Like Koko said, swashbucklers don't have a unique Max HP Debuff, they don't stack with the Brigand.

If you're not carrying a Brigand in raid, then sure as hell bring a Swashbuckler, but with limited spots in a raid, Brigand has always been the better option with the dps they can dish out and their debuffs that Swashbucklers could never match.

Hopefully now Swashbucklers will be liked more now for raids, but sad truth is Raid Spots are still limited and pure Max HP Debuffs are still the way to go.
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