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Old 10-29-2015, 10:06 PM   #91
Ruckus

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But if a swashy was made T1 like assassins and rangers, and brought nothing to the debuff table like a brigand, then a swashy could replace an assassin or ranger. Same thing could be done to beastlords, if the devs don't have time to REALLY address the swashy and BL classes.

At this point, I don't care what my role is...it can be T2 DPS with raid-worthy debuffs (like a brig), or it can be T1 DPS like a predator with their DPS power and lack of debuffs.

Long ago, the original EQ2 devs over-planned with 24 (now 26) classes. They went big, and all they ended up doing was causing more work down the line for the EQ2 devs that are currently having to deal with class balance issues. Playstyle-wise, all we needed was ranger, rogue, bard, beastlord. If you wanted to play a backstabbing class, you picked the rogue (not assassin, swashbuckler, brigand).
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Old 10-29-2015, 10:09 PM   #92
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Who says that ANY class is supposed to be T1 dps? Templars haven't been flavor of the month yet so maybe it's their turn. Wink
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Old 10-29-2015, 10:43 PM   #93
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Make Swash and BL T1 dps, remove HP Debuffs and make Brigs T2.

1 Brig per raid, 2 more contested spots for 4 classes. Perhaps then we'd see some proper competition for spots, and not just who brought a HP debuff.
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Old 10-29-2015, 11:08 PM   #94
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T1, T2, T3 was from so long ago, and eventually it got squashed...but not really. In theory, wizard/warlock and assassin/ranger were supposed to be T1, but they were supposed to offer little to no debuffs. Necro/conjy and brig/swash were supposed to be T2 DPS, but offer some decent debuffs. Bards and chanters were supposed to be T3 DPS, but offer debuffs and buffs.

Then AAs happened. Then a certain dev (no longer with the company) made his class/race OP. Certain classes got their debuffs made into poo and others got their debuffs sprinkled with shiny sparkles. Beastlords showed up, and were OP, then nerfed down to their current state.

As it stands now, summoners vs. rogues are not in the same range in regards to debuffs or DPS.
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:16 AM   #95
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Rogues and Summoners should be T1 dps this xpac. Garbage bag wearing warlocks, wizzies and sins, ranjas have been too OP for too long. It's our turn to shine. Smile
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Old 10-30-2015, 02:50 AM   #96
Caith

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I do... Wink
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Old 10-30-2015, 02:59 AM   #97
Genghes

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any class you say.....
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Old 10-30-2015, 03:08 AM   #98
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So, can Troubies finally see some love????
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Old 10-30-2015, 03:20 AM   #99
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So any sort of plan being worked on for the near future in regards to swashbucklers and beastlords being helped a bit to be considered raid-worthy? Plenty of people who do not play either class have supported this request over the past year. We were hoping that this upcoming expansion and the scout class revamps would have given us a little love, only for it to be "nothing new here" in regards to our classes.
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Old 10-30-2015, 03:47 AM   #100
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4 1/2 pages of feedback and concerns with scout classes and this is the only response we get? awesome
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Old 10-30-2015, 03:50 AM   #101
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Maybe if someone posted something about a bug it would get a response? Honestly there is nothing new posted in thread.
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Old 10-30-2015, 05:34 AM   #102
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Dirge: Zander's Choral Rebuff: Increases Noxious Damage done to the target encounter.

Btw, Zander's is a shared bard ability, so troubs are getting that change too since it is on the base ability. Almost maintained vulnerability debuffs are pretty powerful (no idea if this stacks between multiple bards), but it might be more balanced if it were vs. all magical damage types (since this affects spell-based classes too).
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Old 10-30-2015, 05:41 AM   #103
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It's a shared ability, but the enhancements are class specific. Dirge's get noxious, Troub's get Arcane.
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Old 10-30-2015, 05:43 AM   #104
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Whiiiiich, wasn't on the Troub list. Woops.
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Old 10-30-2015, 05:45 AM   #105
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Hmm, patch notes don't/didn't state any changes to that ability for troubs. Does the vulnerability portion stack between multiple bards of the same-type? And rather than omit elemental damage completely, perhaps it ought to be included on the troub one, or zander's just affect all magical.
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Old 10-30-2015, 05:48 AM   #106
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Elemental reduction isn't being added to bards.

And yes
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Old 10-30-2015, 06:20 AM   #107
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Battle Cry - Grants the target a Multi Attack to Potency conversion

is there going to be a change to the war runes to reflect this as well
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Old 10-30-2015, 06:31 AM   #108
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Why would a class enhancement be added to a war rune?
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Old 10-30-2015, 07:16 AM   #109
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I suppose I might be reading into this but this seems to indicate its being added to someone else or is already accounted for.
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Old 10-30-2015, 07:28 AM   #110
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just fyi the tooltip on Zander's for dirges says it reduces nox dmg to target encounter. should say increases. hopefully just a display error
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Old 10-30-2015, 07:34 AM   #111
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No, it was increasing on the first checkin, was fixed in a later build but that won't be on beta until later tomorrow.
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Old 10-30-2015, 10:47 AM   #112
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I think the issue here is with Screams of Battle (http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/340145221) - right now battle cry is better buff (just) but since not every class is guaranteed a dirge in the group to BC them they often adorn this run. When I group with my adorn I often find the best targets for BC are already covered by this rune so I often keep BC cast on myself rather than cast on the other undergeared scout who will do less dps than myself and will die a lot forcing a lot of recasts.

Now BC is going to be better you are just going to end up in the "gimmie gimmie gimmie" culture of scouts arguing over time compression... sorry I meant battle cry. and since the new BC will be MUCH better than the rune instead of vastly min-max scouts are not going to adorn it and going to be sending increasing irate /tells to the dirge to cast BC on them - and since it is a potency conversion the mages are going to join in as well.

I suggest this should go one of two ways:

1. When you cast this buff on someone else you are also granted the effects yourself - this way the dirge doesn't feel left out when his own abilities are being auctioned off in the group chat.

2. This ability is now self only but a lesser effect (which stacks with runes such as screams of battle) is spread around the group as an addition.

Now I know bards are all in favor of helping their fellow players out but this patch is to help dirge DPS... and may just end up helping someone elses instead. In fact one of these two steps (I prefer the group sharing ability) could be done to other abilities cast on a single player, Upbeat Tempo, Time Compression, Battle Cry, Vigor,

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Now lets talk about the confront fear change... first of all I like it but it just changed into Jester's cap with multiple/complicated macros with players demanding this buff at always the wrong time for the bard.

Oration of Sacrifice if the trigger is large enough there may be cases of players demanding to have this cast on them all the time ruining its ability as a fast quick emergency heal (unless of course the damage is attributed to the dirge?)

Now I'm all for helping your fellow player and all that but these two changes just added an edge of frustration to the dirge - I'm hoping at the least the new effects also translate to buffing the dirge as well

Oh... and for the love of all that is holy reduce the base cast speed on cacophony of blades its a short duration group buff with a 30s recast - with all the jesters cap 2.0 (CF) and possible jesters cap 3.0 (OoS) to cycle through dirges could just end up standing with autoatatck on casting temp buffs and rez and lamenting when the class was enjoyable to play
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Old 10-30-2015, 11:52 AM   #113
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ABILITIES
Troubador
Energizing Ballad - Will now grant the target a Flurry to Potency Conversion - This baffles me. This ability is on such a long reuse timer and such a specific function, I can't see it being specced much still. Perhaps consider making it groupwide and it'd be more effective/Utility.
Jester's Cap -Greatly Increase damage on Jester's Ruse
Arcane Symphony - Will grant Increased Arcane resist for the Troubador's group - To the group, or to the raid? The buff is currently raidwide.
Elemental Converto - Will grant Increased Elemental resist for the Troubador's group - To the group, or to the raid? The buff is currently raidwide.
Countersong - Will buff the caster's group with Potency and Ability Modifier - Reuse on this ability is so large, I can't see it being classed as much utility.
Demoralizing Processional - Will buff the caster's group with Final Ability Damage for spells
Zander's Choral Rebuff - Increases Arcane Damage done to the target encounter - Will the Elemental version be given to another class (Chanters maybe?). Otherwise there will be an imbalance for mages using elemental.

Dirge
Confront Fear - Grants the target an Ability Reuse to Potency conversion - See energising ballad. But considering the ability is generally used when rezzing someone, would it not make more sense to grant a HP boost or damage reduction after taking a rez?
Clara's Chaotic Cacophony - Grants the caster's group Final Ability Damage for combat arts
Oration of Sacrifice - Grants a single trigger damage spell to the target - Without seeing the damage seems a little strange. For a heal that is so rarely used, it'd have to be a massive damage amount to be used.
Noxious Symphony - Grants Increased Noxious resist for the Dirge's group - See comments earlier on Troub versions.
Battle Cry - Grants the target a Multi Attack to Potency conversion - I like this one. BC needed a boost as it was.
Zander's Choral Rebuff - Increases Noxious Damage done to the target encounter - Will the Elemental version be given to another class (Chanters maybe?). Otherwise there will be an imbalance for mages using elemental.
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Old 10-30-2015, 12:01 PM   #114
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Old 10-30-2015, 12:34 PM   #115
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There is a huge discrepancy between added utility and buffing the group and that being your sole reason for being in the group.

Its the same way with the thinking that healers *only* heal and cure and tanks *only* taunting. Utility classes should boost group DPS both singularly and as a group but the fun part of playing such a class is doing that as a sideshow to your own DPS.

They'll never be #1 deeps at all but my best time of playing a dirge is is rotating the buffs and debuffs but all the while snapping at the heals of the T1 DPS classes.

There is nothing fun about rotating single target buffs, and group buffs - adding a "mirror effect" so the bard gains the effects (or a version of the effects) when they buff a target will go a long way to making the class more fun to play when you toggle on autoattack and start cycling through your hotbar of macros.

increased CA damage means little if you are going to be spending your entire time buffing.
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Old 10-30-2015, 12:51 PM   #116
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Bards should be snapping at the heels of T2 DPS maybe, but definitely not T1.

Rotating Buffs is hardly a major issue, but my feedback on the Dirge changes above still applies. Confront Fear should only apply any buffs on a Rez cure, to avoid that exact issue. It's no different to when you used to have to rotate Gravitas round 4 different healers every 30s.
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:21 PM   #117
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Well I've always been in the camp of only two tiers of DPS:

True DPS classes in T1
Everyone else in T2 - they have other roles other than pure DPS but they do deal active DPS as well

so a T1 DPS slacking off/badly played/geared would be beaten by a T2 DPS working hard - its happened in a few expansions (Sentinal's Fate best example)

As for rotating buffs - group buffs no problem, click, forget focus on something else, single target buffs are just plain annoying.

[either selecting manually, using UI click to cast or a macro]
Click, hmmm not working
* check where they are, can you see them, are you in range?
* perhaps they have it already cast / under an immunity? - will try again later
* hmmm, maybe a piece of gear or an adorn?
* oh they died
* Oh, I died
* wait someone has died, let me go and rez
* assassin in just sent me a /tell guess i have to buff him first
* Assassin just died now, he need the other buffs cast on him
* Bah, another death
* oh ***** the tank is in the red.. where is that endline I never use?.... too late.
* accept the rez so I can confront fear on you dammit; stop AFKing!!!
* WTF collection piece just popped up stop looting shiny in the fight!
* healer asking for gravitas?... old macro?
* oh fight is over where did my group go?

OK, the above is a bad example but single target utility is NOT fun
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:32 PM   #118
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You make casting single target buffs/temps sound more effort than it is.

As long as buff doesnt have immunity (Which basically nothing does any more), you have 1 macro, you add multiple people to it in order. It'll cast on top person in macro, if they aren't there/in range, it'll cast on 2nd.

That is 1 button to press every 22.5s for Confront Fear, and 1 for Oration of Sacrifice. Even your rebuffing people on death is Battle Cry or Hate gain, 2 buffs total. Try playing an Illy where you have EV, TC, Syngergism x3, IA, AoI, and whatever else.

And saying all pure dps classes are in the same tier of DPS is nonsense. Ask a swashy to parse like a Warlock/Assassin, and they'll laugh at you.
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:48 PM   #119
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Tell us please what you plan to do with beastlords?
I've been hear too many times that you'll look at it, then that you'll bring it up to a frontier of t1 dps lvl.
So what exactly does it mean?
I've seen only an advantages boost. And you know with all my BL experience I can say it's obviously not enough.
Will we ever get a blue advantage? Would you fix an useless Chillbarier? It stucks at DoV expansion effective value. Why Devour heals an enemy? Yes it's a little but still wierd. Why Feral Charge can't be cast on the move? It's very annoying. Why our Primals have so terrible hit rates? Especially AOE ones? I can't get it why area of effect ability can be blocked or parried by trashy adds not with ae blocker but avoidance check. How is it possible at all? While I played the brigand I honestly can't remember a single time when my Blinding Dust had missed. Not once. Why Draconic Breath has a 4 target restriction that makes it worse than even standard Luclin's Pain? What is planned to do with savagery? It is draining too much while laggy and it will drain more thank your new reset procs. No other class gets hit by this way but we are. What is planned to do with Feral Rampage? Those stacks are too hard to get and maintain and too easy to lost that makes it worthless vs stuns/knockbacks/and other scripts, i.e. on every hard encounters. But it's a meaningful part of our primal abilities effectivity.
Besides that what is planned to do with utility? Will we ever get a hate transfer? Any buffs? Debuffs? Our Chilling Claws is definitely the worst scout group buff ever exists. As our HP debuff. Why our self buff miss a 3.3k+ of magical resists compared to other scout self buffs? While raid leaders arranges a genocide to all whose resists are not enough you just makes such a disparity. It's another cent cast on the balance to not take a BL in raid.
I'm doubt very much that our class prestige item will fix all and every of these issues.
Almost ten days of beta and I can't see any meaningfull changes to beastlord.
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Old 10-30-2015, 02:00 PM   #120
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Demoralizing Processional - Will buff the caster's group with Final Ability Damage for spells

Clara's Chaotic Cacophony - Grants the caster's group Final Ability Damage for combat arts

Both these abilities should give the caster's group Final Ability Damage for combat arts AND spells.

We'll always end up in heroics or raids with the "odd" group or two of an extra caster or melee in a melee or caster group, or a melee group getting a troub, or caster group getting a dirge. Rather than some classes getting left out because of their choice of class or group makeup, or because people just want to group and play to have fun, change these abilities so that they affect spells AND combat arts.
_____________________

Another Proposal:
I'm also in agreement with the above posts where the single target spells of the bards (and even other utility spells of other classes, coercers/illusionists) should be group-wide buffs so that no single class is favored anymore. With the addition of these single-target spells, in some guilds, you're going to have a few out of the many, monopolizing buffs, padding their already "elite" parse; making other players in the same tier look like they're doing a terrible job compared to the uber-buffed player, when they might actually be doing a better job than the monopolizer. You see that one player doing 15%+ more damage than the raid because they get all the good buffs? Now you're making the gap even further. Let's change our current single-target buff paradigm for utility classes and give the entire group some love. By doing this, it equalizes the "playing field", (and except for some OP items) enables a good player to outshine an average player, and lets the whole group enjoy the good buffs rather than a few.

If no consensus can be made to allow groups to get the same buff as the main target, how about giving the group a lesser version of the same buff (75% of the original) while the main target still benefits from the full version?
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