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Old 02-24-2012, 04:48 PM   #91
Darkonx

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[email protected] wrote:

ty darkonx

What I love the most is people using me as an example as to why SK's are balanced. I noticed they did it to you earlier too. Well Rageincarnate tanked EOW HM! I did it too. What they fail to mention is that I had a bruisers avoidance, and I only tanked the two little adds on the bird fight, while the brawler tanked the truly epic one. Even then it took spamming everything I could to stay alive while the two little birds died. What a joke.

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Old 02-24-2012, 04:52 PM   #92
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Darkonx wrote:

(For terrible players with terrible AA specs, perhaps Brawlers are balanced. For those of us who know what we are doing and min/max though, they are so completely ridiculously imbalanced that it's GAMEBREAKING.)

Yup, that's basically it.  If you are only using a very small portion of the Brawler toolset (and especially if you aren't even using those well), Brawlers may seem fairly balanced.  If you use all the tools at your disposal, especially if you use them well, it's just ridiculous. 

Remember paladin heals+CB and how that was going to be super overpowered for easier content? It occurs to me that brawler saves+reuse became overpowered in a similar way except for harder content.

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Old 02-24-2012, 05:11 PM   #93
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What I plan to lay out below is why a Monk should never die. This is how their abilities work during a fight.

On incoming, you cast Brawlers Tenacity(combined with Chi), this gives you 3 triggers of a deathsave, for 90 seconds. So from 0-90s, you can't die. This has a 150 second reuse.

After that comes down, you cast Tsunami, which makes you invincible to melee damage for 20 seconds. One might think that magical attacks could still kill you, but they can't, because all of the wards you are getting are absorbing the magical attacks since the mobs auto attacks can't do anything to you. Another 20s death-immunity, as it were. 90 second reuse. This takes you up to 110s into the fight.

Once that comes down, you cast Bob and Weave, it's basically another Tsunami, only for 12 seconds rather than 20, and on a 75s recast. This takes you up to 122s into the fight, without having had a chance at death.

Once Bob and Weave comes down, you cast Stone Cold (15% group damage reduction for 20s, on a 50s recast), combined with Provoking Stance(25% damage reduction on a 107s recast). This means you're taking 40% less damage from everything, not accounting for mitigation/resists/your passive 10% when you get hit. You wont die taking half damage from mobs, ever. So this grants you another 25 seconds of invincibility. Guess what? You're now 157 seconds into the fight, and your DI came up 7 seconds ago. Rinse/repeat. You are an invincible, unstoppable, juggernaut.

In this series we never used Perfect Guard, 30s recast single hit stoneskin, that you can use to account for any AE, because we didn't have to!

Nor did we use Inner Focus in this set, a two hit physical stoneskin on a 71s recast, because again, we never needed to!

Yet again, we didn't use Outward Calm, a 30k magical ward with a 30s duration, 45s recast, because there was no need!

Mountain Stance for 4k physical mitigation and 3k to all resists? Why bother! You wont ever die anyways!

Body Like Mountain, it roots me, and I don't need the extra 1200 mitigation, so I'm CERTAINLY not casting that!

Mend? That's a 100% heal that gives me 15% extra block! I don't need it though BECAUSE I DON"T TAKE DAMAGE!

Oh, and 100% of the time I get hit, I proc 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds! It can only proc once every 10 seconds, but hey, I'll take 30% damage reduction 30% of the time, any day!

I get hit for more than 15% of my health, so I heal for 40% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)

This is all on top of taking less than half as much damage from physical attacks as a plate tank due to innate avoidance/mitigation values. Stop telling me I'm balanced. I play both classes. I am not balanced.

(For terrible players with terrible AA specs, perhaps Brawlers are balanced. For those of us who know what we are doing and min/max though, they are so completely ridiculously imbalanced that it's GAMEBREAKING.)

Just for kicks, I thought I'd do a similar time-line for an SK. Let's say I always want to have an equivalent damage prevention running. Let's see how far through a fight I can get!

I'll open up the fight with Furor, it gives me 15 seconds of avoidance on a 131 second recast(Not strikethrough-immune, or even strikethrough-resistant! Avoidance). Okay, 15s in, I'm alive, good!

Then I cast Manawall, it lasts 12 seconds, but it cancels when your mana drops below 10%, so realistically you're lucky to get 5 seconds out of it. This ability wont be back for another 108 seconds. 20 seconds in, looking good!

Hmm, what to cast now. Let's try Legionnaire's Conviction(180s reuse, unmodifiable). This is similar to the combination listed above for brawlers in that it grants damage reduction, but only to magical unfortunately! So now I get trucked by physical AE's, or even auto attack. Not a period of invincibility, so much as being SLIGHTLY less death-prone. 40 seconds in, and still kicking if a melee AE/auto attack hasn't downed me yet!

After that I cast Crusaders Faith, which heals me for 24 seconds. It wont stop one shots, the only thing it will do is prevent me from getting slowly attacked to death, something that happens so rarely as it warrants massive remarks if it IS ever to happen. It's not even comparable to any of the monk abilities, and I'm rather dubious if I should list it at all. Yeah, 64 seconds into the fight! Still alive if I'm lucky!

What now? I have a single one hit stoneskin on more than double the recast of Perfect Guard. I also have a ward that drains 25% of my groups health that will probably last through one multi attack swing. Other than those two I have nothing up for the next sixty seconds. I'm defenseless for as long as I have defenses, compared to the monk who has OVERLAP on their abilities. Just the act of writing all this out is just showing me again how utterly imbalanced the classes are.

We have 20 seconds of comparable defense to their FULL TIME defense, and then a full two minutes where nothing we have even remotely compares.

How can anyone POSSIBLY think tanks are balanced? It blows me away.

P.S. Just for the record, my SK has MUCH better gear than my Brawler.

There is no balance, try that with a berserker's POV.  Lol.

My Puny 1000 pt heal won't stop anything...

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Old 02-24-2012, 05:41 PM   #94
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[email protected] wrote:

Damager wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Damager wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Damager wrote:

Banditman wrote:

Why has no one yet seen the real problem here?

The real problem is that mobs simply hit way too hard now.  There was a time when Clerics would WITHOLD casting their reactives until the tank got down on health a bit so that the reactive would then fill them back up.  Can you imagine it?  Strange but true.

Mobs simply hit way too hard now.  Many times, tanks of all classes are simply killed outright by a single strike.  It absolutely does make Druids an afterthought in tanking situations.  If a reactive isn't fast enough, there is no way a HoT will be.

Aside:  I am starting to think that they had it right back in beta, when all priests had all types of heals.  Clerics for instance got the BEST reactives, but they had Wards and HoT's as well.  Etc.

In any event, tank balance right now is probably the best it's ever been overall.  For once in the history of EQ2, all of the tanks are viable.  That cannot be downplayed.

I don't think the problems lie with the tanks, but with the content.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^...

Tallathion and Bruener are more concerened with nobody being able to effectively tank the current content then everybody being able to /sigh.

Again you guys seem to have pathetic sight on mechanics and balance.  Do you understand at all why the strike through mechanic was introduced?  Do you understand how it is being used ineffectively now since 2 Fighters are immune to it?

We all understand that strike through immunity was a quick, easy band-aid fix to help Brawlers at the time from being streaky.  That time is over and allowing the strike through mechanic to be used correctly would be an advantage to keep fighter avoidance in check (its whole original design).  The fact that you are defending having the mechanic used correctly because you are worried you will actually feel what it is like when they are introducing mobs with strike through and how significant of a difference it makes say a lot about how you really feel about balance.  Put strike through on an even playing field and if mobs are unbalanced it will be obvious across all Fighters instead of Brawler pushing all progression like in today's game.

You all silently acknowledge the difference in strike through that happens every time progression is introduced but none of you want to have to deal with it like the other tanks until they nerf it.  That is a bogus out instead of seeing things balanced.

Incorrect sir. Strikethrough was introduced to bring down plate tanks avoidance. Strikethrough immune was introduced because strikethrough from the mobs negated the brawlers avaoidance. The "streakiness" of the brawler was fixed with their reactives not strikethrough immunity.

That makes no sense.  They introduced strike through.  It wasn't for a while before they introduced strike through immunity for Brawlers because they were streaky.  It was a lot easier to give Brawlers strike through immunity to negate it as a band-aid.  Than they addressed Brawler survivability in general and since have made it so that there is absolutely no more of a chance of a "bad roll" causing death.

The band aid is unnecessary and just causing problems now with content balancing.  Easy recent example is EoW...which once again Brawlers could go tank with a solo healer because their avoidance was such a big factor and they were not getting struck through.  Meanwhile to be able to tank it as a Plate tank with a solo healer you NEEDED to have a Brawler in there to give you their avoidance, which at that point why not just use the Brawler?  I guarantee that in PoW the adds on the boar have too high of strike through once again.

ROFL! Roll a Pally they tank EoW easily with single healer, Rageincarnate does it on his SK,  ROFL Watched a guard Tank HM Zek single healer.

Raid Nights I watch a Guard Tank HM Sullons up to Sullon no problem.

What makes no sense is you think they just introduced strikethrough because it was tuesday and they had nothin better to do ROFL!

HM eow?  dude. I get whupped hard by incoming damage on the group of 3.   I run out of toys, heal parse spikes to 50k hps then i die.    We havent tried for awhile... it's annoying >< and it makes me not want to login.

No Sir, He just said EOW, no mention of hard mode aparently EM is too much for him. And yes you do tank EM EOW single healer.

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Old 02-24-2012, 05:43 PM   #95
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Darkonx wrote:

Monks have the best stoneskin ability in the game. It's called Superior Guard. 30s recast ability that blocks the next incoming physical or magical attack > 30% of your max hp. You can completely negate any AE the mob casts, as they almost always have > 30s recast on them. It's pretty broken. Yep. Worst thing is it's not even necessary on most fights, despite it being utterly imbalanced.

I get hit for more than 15% of my health, so I heal for 40% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)

Re roll sir, That is a ward not a stoneskin, Outward Calm also ward.

Secondly, its if hit for more than 40% of your health its a 15% heal

This is your monk expert rofl

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Old 02-24-2012, 05:45 PM   #96
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Darkonx wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

ty darkonx

What I love the most is people using me as an example as to why SK's are balanced. I noticed they did it to you earlier too. Well Rageincarnate tanked EOW HM! I did it too. What they fail to mention is that I had a bruisers avoidance, and I only tanked the two little adds on the bird fight, while the brawler tanked the truly epic one. Even then it took spamming everything I could to stay alive while the two little birds died. What a joke.

Fail read bro, He says EOW not HM EOW which Rage tanks single healer.

You guys are way to easy.

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Old 02-24-2012, 05:50 PM   #97
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Brawlers Defensive Stance lowers there autoattack damage?

Yes.

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Old 02-24-2012, 06:31 PM   #98
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Damager wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Monks have the best stoneskin ability in the game. It's called Superior Guard. 30s recast ability that blocks the next incoming physical or magical attack > 30% of your max hp. You can completely negate any AE the mob casts, as they almost always have > 30s recast on them. It's pretty broken. Yep. Worst thing is it's not even necessary on most fights, despite it being utterly imbalanced.

I get hit for more than 15% of my health, so I heal for 40% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)

Re roll sir, That is a ward not a stoneskin, Outward Calm also ward.

Secondly, its if hit for more than 40% of your health its a 15% heal

This is your monk expert rofl

Superior Guard is a stoneskin. Are you dense? Honestly? http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Superior_Guard

Secondly, the AA that heals you IS 15% base. However, it's modifiable. So with decent potency, it's 45%.

Don't bother replying, you're obviously clueless.

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Old 02-24-2012, 06:33 PM   #99
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Damager wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

ty darkonx

What I love the most is people using me as an example as to why SK's are balanced. I noticed they did it to you earlier too. Well Rageincarnate tanked EOW HM! I did it too. What they fail to mention is that I had a bruisers avoidance, and I only tanked the two little adds on the bird fight, while the brawler tanked the truly epic one. Even then it took spamming everything I could to stay alive while the two little birds died. What a joke.

Fail read bro, He says EOW not HM EOW which Rage tanks single healer.

You guys are way to easy.

Who cares about EM EOW? I can solo tank EM EOW on my Assassin. HM EOW with one healer I can do on my monk. I can not do it on my SK. I layed out their abilities and how they play out over the course of a fight. You have only critiqued my posts with incorrect information, of no real import to the situation. Cease and desist.

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Old 02-24-2012, 06:53 PM   #100
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Damager wrote:

No Sir, He just said EOW, no mention of hard mode aparently EM is too much for him. And yes you do tank EM EOW single healer.

Really?

Why would I even care at all about EM.  It is EM.  I hardly ever even run group content, and if I do its HM only because for some reason there is something I want.

Obviously HM was what was implied.  EM....lol.

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Old 02-24-2012, 06:57 PM   #101
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Darkonx wrote:

Damager wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Monks have the best stoneskin ability in the game. It's called Superior Guard. 30s recast ability that blocks the next incoming physical or magical attack > 30% of your max hp. You can completely negate any AE the mob casts, as they almost always have > 30s recast on them. It's pretty broken. Yep. Worst thing is it's not even necessary on most fights, despite it being utterly imbalanced.

I get hit for more than 15% of my health, so I heal for 40% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)

Re roll sir, That is a ward not a stoneskin, Outward Calm also ward.

Secondly, its if hit for more than 40% of your health its a 15% heal

This is your monk expert rofl

Superior Guard is a stoneskin. Are you dense? Honestly? http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Superior_Guard

Secondly, the AA that heals you IS 15% base. However, it's modifiable. So with decent potency, it's 45%.

Don't bother replying, you're obviously clueless.

Yep, looks like a ward.

HA HA.

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Old 02-24-2012, 06:58 PM   #102
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Darkonx wrote:

Damager wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Monks have the best stoneskin ability in the game. It's called Superior Guard. 30s recast ability that blocks the next incoming physical or magical attack > 30% of your max hp. You can completely negate any AE the mob casts, as they almost always have > 30s recast on them. It's pretty broken. Yep. Worst thing is it's not even necessary on most fights, despite it being utterly imbalanced.

I get hit for more than 15% of my health, so I heal for 40% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)

Re roll sir, That is a ward not a stoneskin, Outward Calm also ward.

Secondly, its if hit for more than 40% of your health its a 15% heal

This is your monk expert rofl

Superior Guard is a stoneskin. Are you dense? Honestly? http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Superior_Guard

Secondly, the AA that heals you IS 15% base. However, it's modifiable. So with decent potency, it's 45%.

Don't bother replying, you're obviously clueless.

Reread what you said ITS fail you specifically say "I get hit for more than 15% of my health", This sir is COMPLETELY wrong you can not deny it. Show me a parse where it heals you for 40% of your health lets see 60k HP would be a 24k heal. Not gonna happen. Just admit you where completely backwards see link backwards http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Meditative_Healing

But according to your example you never get hit for 40% of your health anyway, Also an unkillable juggernaut why do you take a healer into EoW anyway just solo it  /shrug lol

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Old 02-24-2012, 07:26 PM   #103
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Damager wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Damager wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Monks have the best stoneskin ability in the game. It's called Superior Guard. 30s recast ability that blocks the next incoming physical or magical attack > 30% of your max hp. You can completely negate any AE the mob casts, as they almost always have > 30s recast on them. It's pretty broken. Yep. Worst thing is it's not even necessary on most fights, despite it being utterly imbalanced.

I get hit for more than 15% of my health, so I heal for 40% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)

Re roll sir, That is a ward not a stoneskin, Outward Calm also ward.

Secondly, its if hit for more than 40% of your health its a 15% heal

This is your monk expert rofl

Superior Guard is a stoneskin. Are you dense? Honestly? http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Superior_Guard

Secondly, the AA that heals you IS 15% base. However, it's modifiable. So with decent potency, it's 45%.

Don't bother replying, you're obviously clueless.

Reread what you said ITS fail you specifically say "I get hit for more than 15% of my health", This sir is COMPLETELY wrong you can not deny it. Show me a parse where it heals you for 40% of your health lets see 60k HP would be a 24k heal. Not gonna happen. Just admit you where completely backwards see link backwards http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Meditative_Healing

But according to your example you never get hit for 40% of your health anyway, Also an unkillable juggernaut why do you take a healer into EoW anyway just solo it  /shrug lol

The % that you get hit for is incorrect, agreed.

Regardless. That ability has nothing to do with how OP monks are. You could delete the ability to heal for half their health every time they take severe damage and they'd still be insanely overpowered in comparison. Lol.

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Old 02-24-2012, 07:36 PM   #104
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared

You bring up a good point there!  Now that you mention it, they don't technically have infinite snaps either.  Perhaps I got a bit carried away.

That is the problem you guys get carried away.  I was against strikethrough immunity from the start and just said give brawlers better ways to mit and give up on the whole avoidance tanking BS.  But in the meantime the same people who are here crying like children all those years while they saw brawlers get defensive improvements are the same ones who at the same time were playing OP classes and crying for more DPS laughing when we pointed out to them they needed to make their defensive stance meaningful etc.  It makes me laugh they are still here asking for more DPS and asking other classes to be nerfed because they actually do their jobs instead of you know asking to be effective tanks. 

I saw some guy post here about how he opens with chi and his deathsave and just cycles through his defensive stuff which is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read.  Not only are his reuse #'s a complete lie he leaves out that fact chi isn't up for the second round of tenacity or a million other things that made me laugh at his post.  Really you are such a bad player you just spam your saves and hope it works out instead of you know timing things?

It also makes me laugh how you guys clump every spec together like we can have craneflock chi reuse tenacity eagles and mantis all at the same time.

It also makes me laugh how you say brawlers are the most OP a tank has ever been, clearly you don't remember how absolutely dominant guardians and palys were back in the day and lets not forget the SK era where not only could they tank anything you didn't need an OT because they could also just grab everything too.

Right now Monks, guards, bruisers are good at tanking one single target like they are supposed to be and even palys are good at it, SK's, Zerks, Bruisers and Palys are good on groups.  Most tanks can tank most stuff but yes on the extreme certain tanks are better for specific things, nothing is wrong with that.

Here is a fact, I have died to magic while tsunami or bob and weave is running, I have watched my 3 count deathsave go off in the first 10 seconds of hitting it, I have died with my damage reductions running with my ward up, everything you guys claim makes monks and brawlers some sort of invincible god is complete BS.

Anyways you are all funny guys but you don't have a clue what tanks need in this game and certainly nobody needs nerfs, cry more about wanting more dps and dying while not even using your defensive stances or wanting to be able to tank effectively while wearing a 2 hander or dual wielding, it is entertaining.

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Old 02-24-2012, 07:37 PM   #105
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Darkonx wrote:

What I plan to lay out below is why a Monk should never die. This is how their abilities work during a fight.

On incoming, you cast Brawlers Tenacity(combined with Chi), this gives you 3 triggers of a deathsave, for 90 seconds. So from 0-90s, you can't die. This has a 150 second reuse.

After that comes down, you cast Tsunami, which makes you invincible to melee damage for 20 seconds. One might think that magical attacks could still kill you, but they can't, because all of the wards you are getting are absorbing the magical attacks since the mobs auto attacks can't do anything to you. Another 20s death-immunity, as it were. 90 second reuse. This takes you up to 110s into the fight.

Once that comes down, you cast Bob and Weave, it's basically another Tsunami, only for 12 seconds rather than 20, and on a 75s recast. This takes you up to 122s into the fight, without having had a chance at death.

Once Bob and Weave comes down, you cast Stone Cold (15% group damage reduction for 20s, on a 50s recast), combined with Provoking Stance(25% damage reduction on a 107s recast). This means you're taking 40% less damage from everything, not accounting for mitigation/resists/your passive 10% when you get hit. You wont die taking half damage from mobs, ever. So this grants you another 25 seconds of invincibility. Guess what? You're now 157 seconds into the fight, and your DI came up 7 seconds ago. Rinse/repeat. You are an invincible, unstoppable, juggernaut.

In this series we never used Perfect Guard, 30s recast single hit stoneskin, that you can use to account for any AE, because we didn't have to!

Nor did we use Inner Focus in this set, a two hit physical stoneskin on a 71s recast, because again, we never needed to!

Yet again, we didn't use Outward Calm, a 30k magical ward with a 30s duration, 45s recast, because there was no need!

Mountain Stance for 4k physical mitigation and 3k to all resists? Why bother! You wont ever die anyways!

Body Like Mountain, it roots me, and I don't need the extra 1200 mitigation, so I'm CERTAINLY not casting that!

Mend? That's a 100% heal that gives me 15% extra block! I don't need it though BECAUSE I DON"T TAKE DAMAGE!

Oh, and 100% of the time I get hit, I proc 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds! It can only proc once every 10 seconds, but hey, I'll take 30% damage reduction 30% of the time, any day!

I get hit for more than 40% of my health, so I heal for 40% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)

This is all on top of taking less than half as much damage from physical attacks as a plate tank due to innate avoidance/mitigation values. Stop telling me I'm balanced. I play both classes. I am not balanced.

(For terrible players with terrible AA specs, perhaps Brawlers are balanced. For those of us who know what we are doing and min/max though, they are so completely ridiculously imbalanced that it's GAMEBREAKING.)

Just for kicks, I thought I'd do a similar time-line for an SK. Let's say I always want to have an equivalent damage prevention running. Let's see how far through a fight I can get!

I'll open up the fight with Furor, it gives me 15 seconds of avoidance on a 131 second recast(Not strikethrough-immune, or even strikethrough-resistant! Avoidance). Okay, 15s in, I'm alive, good!

Then I cast Manawall, it lasts 12 seconds, but it cancels when your mana drops below 10%, so realistically you're lucky to get 5 seconds out of it. This ability wont be back for another 108 seconds. 20 seconds in, looking good!

Hmm, what to cast now. Let's try Legionnaire's Conviction(180s reuse, unmodifiable). This is similar to the combination listed above for brawlers in that it grants damage reduction, but only to magical unfortunately! So now I get trucked by physical AE's, or even auto attack. Not a period of invincibility, so much as being SLIGHTLY less death-prone. 40 seconds in, and still kicking if a melee AE/auto attack hasn't downed me yet!

After that I cast Crusaders Faith, which heals me for 24 seconds. It wont stop one shots, the only thing it will do is prevent me from getting slowly attacked to death, something that happens so rarely as it warrants massive remarks if it IS ever to happen. It's not even comparable to any of the monk abilities, and I'm rather dubious if I should list it at all. Yeah, 64 seconds into the fight! Still alive if I'm lucky!

What now? I have a single one hit stoneskin on more than double the recast of Perfect Guard. I also have a ward that drains 25% of my groups health that will probably last through one multi attack swing. Other than those two I have nothing up for the next sixty seconds. I'm defenseless for as long as I have defenses, compared to the monk who has OVERLAP on their abilities. Just the act of writing all this out is just showing me again how utterly imbalanced the classes are.

We have 20 seconds of comparable defense to their FULL TIME defense, and then a full two minutes where nothing we have even remotely compares.

How can anyone POSSIBLY think tanks are balanced? It blows me away.

P.S. Just for the record, my SK has MUCH better gear than my Brawler.

^^^

That is why monks are OP.

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Old 02-24-2012, 07:39 PM   #106
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Darkonx wrote:

Damager wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Reread what you said ITS fail you specifically say "I get hit for more than 15% of my health", This sir is COMPLETELY wrong you can not deny it. Show me a parse where it heals you for 40% of your health lets see 60k HP would be a 24k heal. Not gonna happen. Just admit you where completely backwards see link backwards http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Meditative_Healing

But according to your example you never get hit for 40% of your health anyway, Also an unkillable juggernaut why do you take a healer into EoW anyway just solo it  /shrug lol

  

The % that you get hit for is incorrect, agreed.

Regardless. That ability has nothing to do with how OP monks are. You could delete the ability to heal for half their health every time they take severe damage and they'd still be insanely overpowered in comparison. Lol.

Common really the reason I get soooo technical and/or dont take implied comments is because they mislead.

How can you sit there and now say it heals for half? Common dude siriously tell them the real percent it heals you for. Open ACT and tell us the heal amount for realZZZZZZ!

Once you show them you are wrong on this as well, we can move on into why your whole post isnt feasable in reality also.

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Old 02-24-2012, 07:49 PM   #107
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Well, if it is modifiable like he says it is, and it is 15 percent, and say you have 250 potency, a realistic number for someone with a lot of HM drunder gear, it would heal for 37.5 percent.
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:49 PM   #108
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BChizzle wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared

You bring up a good point there!  Now that you mention it, they don't technically have infinite snaps either.  Perhaps I got a bit carried away.

That is the problem you guys get carried away.  I was against strikethrough immunity from the start and just said give brawlers better ways to mit and give up on the whole avoidance tanking BS.  But in the meantime the same people who are here crying like children all those years while they saw brawlers get defensive improvements are the same ones who at the same time were playing OP classes and crying for more DPS laughing when we pointed out to them they needed to make their defensive stance meaningful etc.  It makes me laugh they are still here asking for more DPS and asking other classes to be nerfed because they actually do their jobs instead of you know asking to be effective tanks. 

I saw some guy post here about how he opens with chi and his deathsave and just cycles through his defensive stuff which is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read.  Not only are his reuse #'s a complete lie he leaves out that fact chi isn't up for the second round of tenacity or a million other things that made me laugh at his post.  Really you are such a bad player you just spam your saves and hope it works out instead of you know timing things?

It also makes me laugh how you guys clump every spec together like we can have craneflock chi reuse tenacity eagles and mantis all at the same time.

It also makes me laugh how you say brawlers are the most OP a tank has ever been, clearly you don't remember how absolutely dominant guardians and palys were back in the day and lets not forget the SK era where not only could they tank anything you didn't need an OT because they could also just grab everything too.

Right now Monks, guards, bruisers are good at tanking one single target like they are supposed to be and even palys are good at it, SK's, Zerks, Bruisers and Palys are good on groups.  Most tanks can tank most stuff but yes on the extreme certain tanks are better for specific things, nothing is wrong with that.

Here is a fact, I have died to magic while tsunami or bob and weave is running, I have watched my 3 count deathsave go off in the first 10 seconds of hitting it, I have died with my damage reductions running with my ward up, everything you guys claim makes monks and brawlers some sort of invincible god is complete BS.

Anyways you are all funny guys but you don't have a clue what tanks need in this game and certainly nobody needs nerfs, cry more about wanting more dps and dying while not even using your defensive stances or wanting to be able to tank effectively while wearing a 2 hander or dual wielding, it is entertaining.

http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png

My numbers are factual. Obviously you have to use Titaniir instead of Chi for every other cast of Brawlers Tenacity. Or you could get a JCap. I didn't think I needed to spell it out for someone who plays a brawler.

I never mentioned Mantis Leap, because personally I don't feel like it's superior over the other options. Everything else you listed though, I do have.

Brawlers are beyond broken. You can time your single/double trigger stoneskins in order to block certain AE's, but why not be invincible for the rest of the time? Theres absolutely no reason to do anything else.

Thanks.

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Old 02-24-2012, 07:51 PM   #109
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Hennyo wrote:

Well, if it is modifiable like he says it is, and it is 15 percent, and say you have 250 potency, a realistic number for someone with a lot of HM drunder gear, it would heal for 37.5 percent.

Then Chosen lands on you while fighting Soren and you get +200% more than that. It's absolutely ridiculous.

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Old 02-24-2012, 07:53 PM   #110
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Also the monk reactive heal is not modifiable another myth you guys are full of them.  I wish it were but if it were we would just all load up on potency and heal ourselves for 100% every time we get hit.

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Old 02-24-2012, 07:57 PM   #111
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Darkonx wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared

You bring up a good point there!  Now that you mention it, they don't technically have infinite snaps either.  Perhaps I got a bit carried away.

That is the problem you guys get carried away.  I was against strikethrough immunity from the start and just said give brawlers better ways to mit and give up on the whole avoidance tanking BS.  But in the meantime the same people who are here crying like children all those years while they saw brawlers get defensive improvements are the same ones who at the same time were playing OP classes and crying for more DPS laughing when we pointed out to them they needed to make their defensive stance meaningful etc.  It makes me laugh they are still here asking for more DPS and asking other classes to be nerfed because they actually do their jobs instead of you know asking to be effective tanks. 

I saw some guy post here about how he opens with chi and his deathsave and just cycles through his defensive stuff which is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read.  Not only are his reuse #'s a complete lie he leaves out that fact chi isn't up for the second round of tenacity or a million other things that made me laugh at his post.  Really you are such a bad player you just spam your saves and hope it works out instead of you know timing things?

It also makes me laugh how you guys clump every spec together like we can have craneflock chi reuse tenacity eagles and mantis all at the same time.

It also makes me laugh how you say brawlers are the most OP a tank has ever been, clearly you don't remember how absolutely dominant guardians and palys were back in the day and lets not forget the SK era where not only could they tank anything you didn't need an OT because they could also just grab everything too.

Right now Monks, guards, bruisers are good at tanking one single target like they are supposed to be and even palys are good at it, SK's, Zerks, Bruisers and Palys are good on groups.  Most tanks can tank most stuff but yes on the extreme certain tanks are better for specific things, nothing is wrong with that.

Here is a fact, I have died to magic while tsunami or bob and weave is running, I have watched my 3 count deathsave go off in the first 10 seconds of hitting it, I have died with my damage reductions running with my ward up, everything you guys claim makes monks and brawlers some sort of invincible god is complete BS.

Anyways you are all funny guys but you don't have a clue what tanks need in this game and certainly nobody needs nerfs, cry more about wanting more dps and dying while not even using your defensive stances or wanting to be able to tank effectively while wearing a 2 hander or dual wielding, it is entertaining.

http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png

My numbers are factual. Obviously you have to use Titaniir instead of Chi for every other cast of Brawlers Tenacity. Or you could get a JCap. I didn't think I needed to spell it out for someone who plays a brawler.

I never mentioned Mantis Leap, because personally I don't feel like it's superior over the other options. Everything else you listed though, I do have.

Brawlers are beyond broken. You can time your single/double trigger stoneskins in order to block certain AE's, but why not be invincible for the rest of the time? Theres absolutely no reason to do anything else.

Thanks.

Your numbers aren't factual at all they are horrible.  But now throw in an item from a mob most people dont even bother with and very few brawlers have.  Or hey lets make sure JC is on the monk at all times you sir are laughable.

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Old 02-24-2012, 08:09 PM   #112
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Darkonx wrote:

Hennyo wrote:

Well, if it is modifiable like he says it is, and it is 15 percent, and say you have 250 potency, a realistic number for someone with a lot of HM drunder gear, it would heal for 37.5 percent.

Then Chosen lands on you while fighting Soren and you get +200% more than that. It's absolutely ridiculous.

You claiming that the heal from Meditative Mending is modifiable by potency clearly shows how little you know about the class and this game, thank you for your opinions but you simply don't have the knowledge to be helpful on this topic, you should go back to blindly spamming your saves while the rest of us actually play this game.

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Old 02-24-2012, 08:10 PM   #113
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Damager wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Damager wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Reread what you said ITS fail you specifically say "I get hit for more than 15% of my health", This sir is COMPLETELY wrong you can not deny it. Show me a parse where it heals you for 40% of your health lets see 60k HP would be a 24k heal. Not gonna happen. Just admit you where completely backwards see link backwards http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Meditative_Healing

But according to your example you never get hit for 40% of your health anyway, Also an unkillable juggernaut why do you take a healer into EoW anyway just solo it  /shrug lol

The % that you get hit for is incorrect, agreed.

Regardless. That ability has nothing to do with how OP monks are. You could delete the ability to heal for half their health every time they take severe damage and they'd still be insanely overpowered in comparison. Lol.

Common really the reason I get soooo technical and/or dont take implied comments is because they mislead.

How can you sit there and now say it heals for half? Common dude siriously tell them the real percent it heals you for. Open ACT and tell us the heal amount for realZZZZZZ!

Once you show them you are wrong on this as well, we can move on into why your whole post isnt feasable in reality also.

Healing for half was based on getting Chosen on Soren. Again, this one ability has no impact on the overall argument. It was added as an afterthought. It's a solid 12k+ heal though, when it does manage to proc.

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Old 02-24-2012, 08:12 PM   #114
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BChizzle wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Hennyo wrote:

Well, if it is modifiable like he says it is, and it is 15 percent, and say you have 250 potency, a realistic number for someone with a lot of HM drunder gear, it would heal for 37.5 percent.

Then Chosen lands on you while fighting Soren and you get +200% more than that. It's absolutely ridiculous.

You claiming that the heal from Meditative Mending is modifiable by potency clearly shows how little you know about the class and this game, thank you for your opinions but you simply don't have the knowledge to be helpful on this topic, you should go back to blindly spamming your saves while the rest of us actually play this game.

It was when I last checked, which I admit was on Toxxulia, which is just after the abilities inception.

Why don't you cast your saves more often? Because you need them to be up when you need them. If you can always have one running that will ensure that you don't die, why wouldn't you? The answer is you would. Doing anything else would be asinine.

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Old 02-24-2012, 08:14 PM   #115
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Darkonx wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Hennyo wrote:

Well, if it is modifiable like he says it is, and it is 15 percent, and say you have 250 potency, a realistic number for someone with a lot of HM drunder gear, it would heal for 37.5 percent.

Then Chosen lands on you while fighting Soren and you get +200% more than that. It's absolutely ridiculous.

You claiming that the heal from Meditative Mending is modifiable by potency clearly shows how little you know about the class and this game, thank you for your opinions but you simply don't have the knowledge to be helpful on this topic, you should go back to blindly spamming your saves while the rest of us actually play this game.

It was when I last checked, which I admit was on Toxxulia, which is just after the abilities inception.

Why don't you cast your saves more often? Because you need them to be up when you need them. If you can always have one running that will ensure that you don't die, why wouldn't you? The answer is you would. Doing anything else would be asinine.

Again you don't have a clue what you are talking about and are now making things up from stuff you supposedly checked years ago.

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Old 02-24-2012, 08:16 PM   #116
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BChizzle wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared

You bring up a good point there!  Now that you mention it, they don't technically have infinite snaps either.  Perhaps I got a bit carried away.

That is the problem you guys get carried away.  I was against strikethrough immunity from the start and just said give brawlers better ways to mit and give up on the whole avoidance tanking BS.  But in the meantime the same people who are here crying like children all those years while they saw brawlers get defensive improvements are the same ones who at the same time were playing OP classes and crying for more DPS laughing when we pointed out to them they needed to make their defensive stance meaningful etc.  It makes me laugh they are still here asking for more DPS and asking other classes to be nerfed because they actually do their jobs instead of you know asking to be effective tanks. 

I saw some guy post here about how he opens with chi and his deathsave and just cycles through his defensive stuff which is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read.  Not only are his reuse #'s a complete lie he leaves out that fact chi isn't up for the second round of tenacity or a million other things that made me laugh at his post.  Really you are such a bad player you just spam your saves and hope it works out instead of you know timing things?

It also makes me laugh how you guys clump every spec together like we can have craneflock chi reuse tenacity eagles and mantis all at the same time.

It also makes me laugh how you say brawlers are the most OP a tank has ever been, clearly you don't remember how absolutely dominant guardians and palys were back in the day and lets not forget the SK era where not only could they tank anything you didn't need an OT because they could also just grab everything too.

Right now Monks, guards, bruisers are good at tanking one single target like they are supposed to be and even palys are good at it, SK's, Zerks, Bruisers and Palys are good on groups.  Most tanks can tank most stuff but yes on the extreme certain tanks are better for specific things, nothing is wrong with that.

Here is a fact, I have died to magic while tsunami or bob and weave is running, I have watched my 3 count deathsave go off in the first 10 seconds of hitting it, I have died with my damage reductions running with my ward up, everything you guys claim makes monks and brawlers some sort of invincible god is complete BS.

Anyways you are all funny guys but you don't have a clue what tanks need in this game and certainly nobody needs nerfs, cry more about wanting more dps and dying while not even using your defensive stances or wanting to be able to tank effectively while wearing a 2 hander or dual wielding, it is entertaining.

http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png

My numbers are factual. Obviously you have to use Titaniir instead of Chi for every other cast of Brawlers Tenacity. Or you could get a JCap. I didn't think I needed to spell it out for someone who plays a brawler.

I never mentioned Mantis Leap, because personally I don't feel like it's superior over the other options. Everything else you listed though, I do have.

Brawlers are beyond broken. You can time your single/double trigger stoneskins in order to block certain AE's, but why not be invincible for the rest of the time? Theres absolutely no reason to do anything else.

Thanks.

Your numbers aren't factual at all they are horrible.  But now throw in an item from a mob most people dont even bother with and very few brawlers have.  Or hey lets make sure JC is on the monk at all times you sir are laughable.

Asking for JC once every five minutes is hardly ensuring it's always on. The image above is standing in a group. No ROA. No JC. No reuse temps.

Monks are currently broken. Sorry.

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Old 02-24-2012, 08:17 PM   #117
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BChizzle wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Hennyo wrote:

Well, if it is modifiable like he says it is, and it is 15 percent, and say you have 250 potency, a realistic number for someone with a lot of HM drunder gear, it would heal for 37.5 percent.

Then Chosen lands on you while fighting Soren and you get +200% more than that. It's absolutely ridiculous.

You claiming that the heal from Meditative Mending is modifiable by potency clearly shows how little you know about the class and this game, thank you for your opinions but you simply don't have the knowledge to be helpful on this topic, you should go back to blindly spamming your saves while the rest of us actually play this game.

It was when I last checked, which I admit was on Toxxulia, which is just after the abilities inception.

Why don't you cast your saves more often? Because you need them to be up when you need them. If you can always have one running that will ensure that you don't die, why wouldn't you? The answer is you would. Doing anything else would be asinine.

Again you don't have a clue what you are talking about and are now making things up from stuff you supposedly checked years ago.

I posted how you can indefinitely chain saves on a monk. I then posted a screenshot showing proof of the numbers and their values, and how they can work together to make the monk practically invincible. You have yet to disprove ANY of these FACTS.

I admit that I was off on the numbers for meditative mending, something I added as an afterthought. The rest of the numbers are screenshotted and posted just above.

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Old 02-24-2012, 08:18 PM   #118
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Darkonx wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared

You bring up a good point there!  Now that you mention it, they don't technically have infinite snaps either.  Perhaps I got a bit carried away.

That is the problem you guys get carried away.  I was against strikethrough immunity from the start and just said give brawlers better ways to mit and give up on the whole avoidance tanking BS.  But in the meantime the same people who are here crying like children all those years while they saw brawlers get defensive improvements are the same ones who at the same time were playing OP classes and crying for more DPS laughing when we pointed out to them they needed to make their defensive stance meaningful etc.  It makes me laugh they are still here asking for more DPS and asking other classes to be nerfed because they actually do their jobs instead of you know asking to be effective tanks. 

I saw some guy post here about how he opens with chi and his deathsave and just cycles through his defensive stuff which is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read.  Not only are his reuse #'s a complete lie he leaves out that fact chi isn't up for the second round of tenacity or a million other things that made me laugh at his post.  Really you are such a bad player you just spam your saves and hope it works out instead of you know timing things?

It also makes me laugh how you guys clump every spec together like we can have craneflock chi reuse tenacity eagles and mantis all at the same time.

It also makes me laugh how you say brawlers are the most OP a tank has ever been, clearly you don't remember how absolutely dominant guardians and palys were back in the day and lets not forget the SK era where not only could they tank anything you didn't need an OT because they could also just grab everything too.

Right now Monks, guards, bruisers are good at tanking one single target like they are supposed to be and even palys are good at it, SK's, Zerks, Bruisers and Palys are good on groups.  Most tanks can tank most stuff but yes on the extreme certain tanks are better for specific things, nothing is wrong with that.

Here is a fact, I have died to magic while tsunami or bob and weave is running, I have watched my 3 count deathsave go off in the first 10 seconds of hitting it, I have died with my damage reductions running with my ward up, everything you guys claim makes monks and brawlers some sort of invincible god is complete BS.

Anyways you are all funny guys but you don't have a clue what tanks need in this game and certainly nobody needs nerfs, cry more about wanting more dps and dying while not even using your defensive stances or wanting to be able to tank effectively while wearing a 2 hander or dual wielding, it is entertaining.

http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png

My numbers are factual. Obviously you have to use Titaniir instead of Chi for every other cast of Brawlers Tenacity. Or you could get a JCap. I didn't think I needed to spell it out for someone who plays a brawler.

I never mentioned Mantis Leap, because personally I don't feel like it's superior over the other options. Everything else you listed though, I do have.

Brawlers are beyond broken. You can time your single/double trigger stoneskins in order to block certain AE's, but why not be invincible for the rest of the time? Theres absolutely no reason to do anything else.

Thanks.

Your numbers aren't factual at all they are horrible.  But now throw in an item from a mob most people dont even bother with and very few brawlers have.  Or hey lets make sure JC is on the monk at all times you sir are laughable.

Asking for JC once every five minutes is hardly ensuring it's always on. The image above is standing in a group. No ROA. No JC. No reuse temps.

Monks are currently broken. Sorry.

So you manage apparently to have maxed your reuse on every save despite only having your reuse maxed twice every 6 minutes for a total of a minute OK grats on your magical scenario that doesnt exist.

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Old 02-24-2012, 08:20 PM   #119
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Monks and Bruisers arn't overpowered!

All the other tanks just must be underpowered!

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Old 02-24-2012, 08:21 PM   #120
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BChizzle wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

If brawlers are unkillable then raid content in this game would be cleared

You bring up a good point there!  Now that you mention it, they don't technically have infinite snaps either.  Perhaps I got a bit carried away.

That is the problem you guys get carried away.  I was against strikethrough immunity from the start and just said give brawlers better ways to mit and give up on the whole avoidance tanking BS.  But in the meantime the same people who are here crying like children all those years while they saw brawlers get defensive improvements are the same ones who at the same time were playing OP classes and crying for more DPS laughing when we pointed out to them they needed to make their defensive stance meaningful etc.  It makes me laugh they are still here asking for more DPS and asking other classes to be nerfed because they actually do their jobs instead of you know asking to be effective tanks. 

I saw some guy post here about how he opens with chi and his deathsave and just cycles through his defensive stuff which is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read.  Not only are his reuse #'s a complete lie he leaves out that fact chi isn't up for the second round of tenacity or a million other things that made me laugh at his post.  Really you are such a bad player you just spam your saves and hope it works out instead of you know timing things?

It also makes me laugh how you guys clump every spec together like we can have craneflock chi reuse tenacity eagles and mantis all at the same time.

It also makes me laugh how you say brawlers are the most OP a tank has ever been, clearly you don't remember how absolutely dominant guardians and palys were back in the day and lets not forget the SK era where not only could they tank anything you didn't need an OT because they could also just grab everything too.

Right now Monks, guards, bruisers are good at tanking one single target like they are supposed to be and even palys are good at it, SK's, Zerks, Bruisers and Palys are good on groups.  Most tanks can tank most stuff but yes on the extreme certain tanks are better for specific things, nothing is wrong with that.

Here is a fact, I have died to magic while tsunami or bob and weave is running, I have watched my 3 count deathsave go off in the first 10 seconds of hitting it, I have died with my damage reductions running with my ward up, everything you guys claim makes monks and brawlers some sort of invincible god is complete BS.

Anyways you are all funny guys but you don't have a clue what tanks need in this game and certainly nobody needs nerfs, cry more about wanting more dps and dying while not even using your defensive stances or wanting to be able to tank effectively while wearing a 2 hander or dual wielding, it is entertaining.

http://i42.tinypic.com/30934uu.png

My numbers are factual. Obviously you have to use Titaniir instead of Chi for every other cast of Brawlers Tenacity. Or you could get a JCap. I didn't think I needed to spell it out for someone who plays a brawler.

I never mentioned Mantis Leap, because personally I don't feel like it's superior over the other options. Everything else you listed though, I do have.

Brawlers are beyond broken. You can time your single/double trigger stoneskins in order to block certain AE's, but why not be invincible for the rest of the time? Theres absolutely no reason to do anything else.

Thanks.

Your numbers aren't factual at all they are horrible.  But now throw in an item from a mob most people dont even bother with and very few brawlers have.  Or hey lets make sure JC is on the monk at all times you sir are laughable.

Asking for JC once every five minutes is hardly ensuring it's always on. The image above is standing in a group. No ROA. No JC. No reuse temps.

Monks are currently broken. Sorry.

So you manage apparently to have maxed your reuse on every save despite only having your reuse maxed twice every 6 minutes for a total of a minute OK grats on your magical scenario that doesnt exist.

My reuse isn't max'd. Not even close. I'm at 67.8%. Hence why abilities like Provoking Stance have a reuse of like 107 seconds.

With 67.8% reuse, you can chain saves INDEFTINITELY. That reuse is with mostly HM armor. I haven't stacked any pieces specifically for reuse, and my monk has inferior gear to my SK or the values would be even more absurd.

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