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Old 08-19-2007, 02:59 PM   #1
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Just out of curiousity. Why would a developer use eq2flames as a forum to garner suggestions on upcoming changes when Sony has its own moderated boards? Should we all sign up on eq2flames as well?

Re: Spell Consolidation


Lets keep the no votes to the general threads with reasons why you don't want them. Keep these threads more to the specifics of why or perhaps why not spell X and Y are good matches. Here I will even give you guys some starter examples but I wouldn't call these final at all. Constriction + Enmesh - similar timed debuffs Cloaked Assault + Slaughtersault - one powerful AE skill. timer remains the same as cloaked assualt Villainy line + stances - one self buff either offensive or defensive with the benefits of the villainy line Spitting Asp + Neck shot - one powerful bow attack Eviscerate + Jugular - would be bad to merge due to playstyle changes with concealment Again that is just an example of some things that might happen or might not but this is the kind of post I am looking for in regards to class feedback. __________________ Chris Kozak Spells, Combat, Achievements Programmer/Designer, EQ2  

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Old 08-19-2007, 03:10 PM   #2
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Sandain666 wrote:

Just out of curiousity. Why would a developer use eq2flames as a forum to garner suggestions on upcoming changes when Sony has its own moderated boards? Should we all sign up on eq2flames as well?

A lot of game developers post on other fansite forums for the game they work on since it helps them reach a broader audience than what they might see on their official boards. There are a lot of people that post on EQ2Flames who do not post here, and the less moderated environment there probably lends itself to a lot of open, frank discussion that the developers might find useful.

Don't worry though. I know that Chris Kozak (Aeralik) reads these boards frequently, so it's not like he isn't aware of the concerns and issues posted here. SMILEY

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Old 08-19-2007, 03:14 PM   #3
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Sandain666 wrote:

Just out of curiousity. Why would a developer use eq2flames as a forum to garner suggestions on upcoming changes when Sony has its own moderated boards? Should we all sign up on eq2flames as well?

Because it provides a leading source of information by, among and for many of the leading players of this game.  These Official Forums also provide significant and useful information, but SoE also recognizes the value and contribution of fan sites and communities with alternate views in futherance of our common goals.  And those are for players and SoE staff to work together to the greatest extent possible to help create the best and most successful game possible. If you sign up, you'll be welcome to participate in our free exchange of information.
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Old 08-19-2007, 03:18 PM   #4
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Sandain666 wrote:

Just out of curiousity. Why would a developer use eq2flames as a forum to garner suggestions on upcoming changes when Sony has its own moderated boards? Should we all sign up on eq2flames as well

If a developer wants brutally honestly feedback on their changes EQ2flames is the place to do it. If you were a developer making a significant game change would you post for feedback on a forum where everything that is said that doesn't involve how good of a game eq2 is gets locked or on a forum where you can say these changes are [Removed for Content] rediculous and will completely ruin the game heres the reason why. I think many of the devs have also realized that most of the raiders stopped posting a lot here long ago and have moved to eq2flames because it is where we can voice our opinions without our posts being deleted or our forum accounts being banned. PS: Use Cochy as your referral!
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Old 08-19-2007, 03:30 PM   #5
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As stated, many devs post on fansites, give interviews, etc, outside of the "official" forums.  good way to keep in touch with a variety of playstyles and expectations, IMHO.
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Old 08-19-2007, 03:33 PM   #6
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also cuase i would say 1/5 of the people that post on EQ2flames is banned from SOE Boards for more then one reason or another and half of that is from Nagafen folks Aerlik is a cool guy and likes to make sure everyeone is heard imo tbh
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Old 08-19-2007, 03:52 PM   #7
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Well, I guess the alternative would be that Devs close off sources of input, which would be a bad idea in my opinion. I like the fact that devs seek as broad as range of opinions as possible.

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Old 08-19-2007, 03:54 PM   #8
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Sandain666 wrote:

Just out of curiousity. Why would a developer use eq2flames as a forum to garner suggestions on upcoming changes when Sony has its own moderated boards? Should we all sign up on eq2flames as well?

Re: Spell Consolidation


Lets keep the no votes to the general threads with reasons why you don't want them. Keep these threads more to the specifics of why or perhaps why not spell X and Y are good matches. Here I will even give you guys some starter examples but I wouldn't call these final at all. Constriction + Enmesh - similar timed debuffs Cloaked Assault + Slaughtersault - one powerful AE skill. timer remains the same as cloaked assualt Villainy line + stances - one self buff either offensive or defensive with the benefits of the villainy line Spitting Asp + Neck shot - one powerful bow attack Eviscerate + Jugular - would be bad to merge due to playstyle changes with concealment Again that is just an example of some things that might happen or might not but this is the kind of post I am looking for in regards to class feedback. __________________ Chris Kozak Spells, Combat, Achievements Programmer/Designer, EQ2  

From my perspective, if a Dev is going to solicit advice from a Raiding forum they need to also solicit views of non raiders as well.  I do not want the rigid, structered, ONE ANSWER only feedback that raiders tend to give.

For Example.. Combine Spitting Asp and Neck Shot.. honestly, the raider answer is going to be "LoLz who cares, only nubs use bows".  

Notice combining Evicerate and Jugular is off the table due to the Concealment chain OMG DPS concerns.

Asking for input should involve the whole playing base, as it will affect the whole playing base.  Pandering to Disso for advice really isn't going to get feedback that reflects the reality of game demographics.

Frankly LFG, "Leading Players" is a title you gave yourself, nobody elected you.  I pay the same damned sub fee you do, and have just as much right to give input as anyone.

Things like this should be conducted on the SOE forums always, in ADDITION they could use outside boards.  Going directly to an outside forum established by Banned players. uh, yah, thats a great idea Mr Dev.

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Old 08-19-2007, 03:59 PM   #9
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Lasai wrote:
Sandain666 wrote:

Just out of curiousity. Why would a developer use eq2flames as a forum to garner suggestions on upcoming changes when Sony has its own moderated boards? Should we all sign up on eq2flames as well?

Re: Spell Consolidation


Lets keep the no votes to the general threads with reasons why you don't want them. Keep these threads more to the specifics of why or perhaps why not spell X and Y are good matches. Here I will even give you guys some starter examples but I wouldn't call these final at all. Constriction + Enmesh - similar timed debuffs Cloaked Assault + Slaughtersault - one powerful AE skill. timer remains the same as cloaked assualt Villainy line + stances - one self buff either offensive or defensive with the benefits of the villainy line Spitting Asp + Neck shot - one powerful bow attack Eviscerate + Jugular - would be bad to merge due to playstyle changes with concealment Again that is just an example of some things that might happen or might not but this is the kind of post I am looking for in regards to class feedback. __________________ Chris Kozak Spells, Combat, Achievements Programmer/Designer, EQ2  

From my perspective, if a Dev is going to solicit advice from a Raiding forum they need to also solicit views of non raiders as well.  I do not want the rigid, structered, ONE ANSWER only feedback that raiders tend to give.

For Example.. Combine Spitting Asp and Neck Shot.. honestly, the raider answer is going to be "LoLz who cares, only nubs use bows".  

Notice combining Evicerate and Jugular is off the table due to the Concealment chain OMG DPS concerns.

Asking for input should involve the whole playing base, as it will affect the whole playing base.  Pandering to Disso for advice really isn't going to get feedback that reflects the reality of game demographics.

Frankly LFG, "Leading Players" is a title you gave yourself, nobody elected you.  I pay the same damned sub fee you do, and have just as much right to give input as anyone.

Things like this should be conducted on the SOE forums always, in ADDITION they could use outside boards.  Going directly to an outside forum established by Banned players. uh, yah, thats a great idea Mr Dev.

And your ignorance would be torn apart on the other forum.  Please register there. Thanks.

-lamil
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Old 08-19-2007, 04:16 PM   #10
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Sandain666 wrote:

Just out of curiousity. Why would a developer use eq2flames as a forum to garner suggestions on upcoming changes when Sony has its own moderated boards?

A broader range of info, a more knowledgable community (about some aspects of the game) and a culture of providing honest feedback without the fear of moderation.

Should we all sign up on eq2flames as well?

Obviously yes SMILEY

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Old 08-19-2007, 04:21 PM   #11
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Lasai wrote:
Sandain666 wrote:

From my perspective, if a Dev is going to solicit advice from a Raiding forum they need to also solicit views of non raiders as well.  I do not want the rigid, structered, ONE ANSWER only feedback that raiders tend to give.

For Example.. Combine Spitting Asp and Neck Shot.. honestly, the raider answer is going to be "LoLz who cares, only nubs use bows".  

Notice combining Evicerate and Jugular is off the table due to the Concealment chain OMG DPS concerns.

Asking for input should involve the whole playing base, as it will affect the whole playing base.  Pandering to Disso for advice really isn't going to get feedback that reflects the reality of game demographics.

Frankly LFG, "Leading Players" is a title you gave yourself, nobody elected you.  I pay the same damned sub fee you do, and have just as much right to give input as anyone.

Things like this should be conducted on the SOE forums always, in ADDITION they could use outside boards.  Going directly to an outside forum established by Banned players. uh, yah, thats a great idea Mr Dev.

Go read the thread if you want as here was my reply to the devs post. Originally Posted by Aeralik Here I will even give you guys some starter examples but I wouldn't call these final at all. Constriction + Enmesh - similar timed debuffs.Really nothing I see that is wrong with merging these spells. Cloaked Assault + Slaughtersault - one powerful AE skill. timer remains the same as cloaked assualt.This could potentially lower DPS depending on how high the damage is due to the loss of procs / poisons when you use the 2nd AE but if the AE is the combined damage of cloaked + slaughter on cloaked's timer it should be alright. Villainy line + stances - one self buff either offensive or defensive with the benefits of the villainy line Again another change that I wouldn't have a problem with depending on how it is classified. Right now our offensive stance doesn't get dispelled but Villainy does so if it makes it so Villainy doesn't get dispelled that is a plus but if our offensive stance can get dispelled that is a bad thing. Spitting Asp + Neck shot - one powerful bow attack. A major major issue I see with this change is the potential loss of a bow shot when you are dropping back to use your ranged attacks. For example a typical sequence for me goes Concealment -> puncture/evis/jugular/Killing Blade/Cloaked -> Melee auto attack -> Spitting Asp -> Neck shot. -> Ranged auto attack. With the 2 ranged spells combined into 1 spell you lose the Ranged auto attack due to the reuse from your last melee auto attack not being up after you are done with a bow CA severely reducing the effectiveness of using your ranged attacks. Usually 1 bow shot is more damage than both my ranged attacks combined if it crits so it is significant to our DPS. Eviscerate + Jugular - would be bad to merge due to playstyle changes with concealment. Agreed So now before you go and think exactly what a raiders reply would be maybe you should think twice because that post was completely ignorant and wrong in so many cases. A dev will post on EQ2flames because quite honestly the posters on EQ2flames have a better clue about this game than most people on this board.
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Old 08-19-2007, 04:23 PM   #12
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Sure its another forum about this game, popular with a significant number of people ("leading" or otherwise), therefore sensible for some devs who like it to post there and get feedback from some of those people as well as from here and other parts of the community. Im sure noone makes decisions based only on one forum anyway. If they do they have no business writing games.
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Old 08-19-2007, 04:24 PM   #13
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kevinlunt wrote:
Lasai wrote:

And your ignorance would be torn apart on the other forum.  Please register there. Thanks.

-lamil

another quote

" A dev will post on EQ2flames because quite honestly the posters on EQ2flames have a better clue about this game than most people on this board."

Thank you, so much, for eloquently proving my point.

I'll repeat, your self absorbed arrogance entitles you to squat.  We all pay the same subscription.

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Old 08-19-2007, 04:31 PM   #14
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Lasai wrote:

We all pay the same subscription.

Which is why we are all entitled to have our voices heard, why multiple forums exist, and why well informed devs seek feedback from the entire EQ2 community.
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Old 08-19-2007, 04:32 PM   #15
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There is a difference between being arrogant and just posting facts.
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Old 08-19-2007, 04:32 PM   #16
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Lasai wrote:
We all pay the same subscription.
Seriously? Yes, we all pay the same subscription.  I think the game should have a button on it that says I am better then you to everyone in the zone when I press it.  I believe this should be implemented because I pay you the same as everyone else.  Please do it.  Now.  Thanks.
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Old 08-19-2007, 04:46 PM   #17
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kevinlunt wrote:
 I think the game should have a button on it that says I am better then you to everyone in the zone when I press it.  I believe this should be implemented because I pay you the same as everyone else.  Please do it.  Now.  Thanks.
Oh come on.  That would be silly.  I've heard dumb ideas before but this takes the cake.
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Old 08-19-2007, 04:50 PM   #18
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Not sure why either, considering they revel in getting banned from these forums and spent an awful lot of time insulting Devs/Mods.

 http://www.eq2flames.com/showthread.php?t=10013

Not even sure why lining to the site is allowed considering the extreme profanity on those boards.

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Old 08-19-2007, 05:03 PM   #19
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Last I checked, developers can post wherever they want. And about eq2flames, yeah I post there a lot, I also think that there's a lot lower signal->noise ratio over there just due to the fact that there are less morons who post there due to the fact that the morons will be shut down really fast and probably get all butt-hurt and never post there again.  The other thing is, there's a lot of people there that truly care about the game and want to see it succeed so you're just going to have to deal with it. Also, did you know, this same argument came up over on Silky Venom(an official partner of Vanguard, or whatever they called them) about how certain developers were posting more often over on Fohguild(not a partner of Vanguard at all) than on Silky Venom.  Guess what, deal with it, Developers can post where they want, and last I checked, the sites are still free to use so nobody is stopping you from going over there and posting.
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Old 08-19-2007, 05:04 PM   #20
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Look. The devs listen to everyone, judge the input, and make their own decisions. If you think otherwise I strongly feel you are mistaken.

If you read and understoodd what he wrote, he was simply trying to steer the dicsussion so the feedback he received was of the format and quality he would find useful.

I am sure he would do the same thing here.

You could think of getting input from min/maxers as "pre-QA" that doesn't exclusivley help anyone.

As an open forum, EQ2flames is a great place to discuss things, and everyone is welcome there. It is definitely not for the faint of heart or easily offended, but as long you don't go off stating your opinions as facts, and steer clear of outright flame fest posts, I think most people would find it is a pretty good board.

Just like here, you have you resident know it alls, your resident contrarians, your resident fan boys, your resident pessimists, etc.. Some people make good posts, provide good input or observations, and some do the exact opposite...much like here. It is just a different source of information for the devs. It never has been and never will be the only/majority source. Regular forum posters have just as much voice and weight as the people at EQ2flames, I suggest instead of worrying about a dev posting there someone start a similar thread here for exact same thing. Or, you could always post over there, everyone is welcome.

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Old 08-19-2007, 05:06 PM   #21
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And before I get labled just a Raider Hater let me just say the following.

I firmly believe the best items and gear in game belong to those who make the effort to raid.

Raiders should have input on raid design, mobs and instances.

Raiders give the best advice, have the most knowledge and skills regarding raiding.

However, that being said, Raiding isnt the game, isn't the only "meaningful content" and isn't the end all be all of everything.

When raiders start dictating my spells, buffs, consolodations of spells, etc, then I get concerned.   I just had my SK's str buff ripped away on behalf of some half baked concept of "raid utility".   I don't want raid concerns dictating the entire game.  Input should come from all playstyles, and should be solicited from the SOE main boards, as they are the supposed "official" means of communication between players and SOE.

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Old 08-19-2007, 05:07 PM   #22
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LFG wrote:
Lasai wrote:

We all pay the same subscription.

Which is why we are all entitled to have our voices heard, why multiple forums exist, and why well informed devs seek feedback from the entire EQ2 community.

I agree LFG. It would be nice if the devs sought feedback from the entire community. However, the question was posted to your board only indicating that the dev in question is interested only in your (Flames) opinion. While your site may in fact be the stopping spot for high end raiders with larger than life egos, I believe what is upsetting people is that Flames is being consulted alone on this.

While your site may be good for garnering info about the absolute hardest encounters ingame, this issue will effect everyone. And has been stated over and over on Flames, you guys could care less about the mundane aspects of the game. Your only concern is raiding. So imo asking raiders about an issue that will impact everyone is shortsited at best and at worst shows a disturbing trend in the future course of this game.

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Old 08-19-2007, 05:10 PM   #23
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Wow I am surprised to get som many responses so quickly. Great points all around from everyone. But I can see I was not clear in my original post. Some of you seem to have assumed I do not think the devs should contribute to outside forums. This is NOT the case. My concern is that such information sharing and idea gatheriing should also include the official forums.   If Chris is setting up asking for input in the individual class forums on EQ2flames should he not do the same on Sony's official class forums? If he has done so I have thus far not been able to find it.

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Old 08-19-2007, 05:12 PM   #24
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Sandain666 wrote:

Just out of curiousity. Why would a developer use eq2flames as a forum to garner suggestions on upcoming changes when Sony has its own moderated boards? Should we all sign up on eq2flames as well?

Re: Spell Consolidation


Lets keep the no votes to the general threads with reasons why you don't want them. Keep these threads more to the specifics of why or perhaps why not spell X and Y are good matches. Here I will even give you guys some starter examples but I wouldn't call these final at all. Constriction + Enmesh - similar timed debuffs Cloaked Assault + Slaughtersault - one powerful AE skill. timer remains the same as cloaked assualt Villainy line + stances - one self buff either offensive or defensive with the benefits of the villainy line Spitting Asp + Neck shot - one powerful bow attack Eviscerate + Jugular - would be bad to merge due to playstyle changes with concealment Again that is just an example of some things that might happen or might not but this is the kind of post I am looking for in regards to class feedback. __________________ Chris Kozak Spells, Combat, Achievements Programmer/Designer, EQ2  

Not liking the consolidation from the first time I heard it and seeing this deffinately reaffirms it.  Macros help eliviate spell problems allowing for a multitude of combinations. 

It's starting to feel like the combat upgrade/revamp all over again if the consolidation goes through. 

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Old 08-19-2007, 05:14 PM   #25
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Lasai wrote:

When raiders start dictating my spells, buffs, consolodations of spells, etc, then I get concerned.   I just had my SK's str buff ripped away on behalf of some half baked concept of "raid utility".   I don't want raid concerns dictating the entire game.  Input should come from all playstyles, and should be solicited from the SOE main boards, as they are the supposed "official" means of communication between players and SOE.

You would be interested to read the post on that forum regarding that very thing. I think you might apply the origin elsewhere.

I don't think you will find very many people who disagree that input should come from all playstyles, but you do have to understand that the devs must go where they can get useful information. Sitting back and waiting for it to come to them, only to discover that it wasn't good inforation, or wasn't enough, doesn't help the game.

For whatever reason, a lot of people post at different sites, and in my mind, they should all be used to gather whatever good feedback is to be had.

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Old 08-19-2007, 05:21 PM   #26
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Kenazeer wrote:

Just like here, you have you resident know it alls, your resident contrarians, your resident fan boys, your resident pessimists, etc.. Some people make good posts, provide good input or observations, and some do the exact opposite...much like here. It is just a different source of information for the devs. It never has been and never will be the only/majority source. Regular forum posters have just as much voice and weight as the people at EQ2flames, I suggest instead of worrying about a dev posting there someone start a similar thread here for exact same thing. Or, you could always post over there, everyone is welcome.

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Old 08-19-2007, 05:21 PM   #27
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Lasai wrote:

I just had my SK's str buff ripped away on behalf of some half baked concept of "raid utility".   I don't want raid concerns dictating the entire game.  Input should come from all playstyles, and should be solicited from the SOE main boards, as they are the supposed "official" means of communication between players and SOE.

I'm not aware of any raiding SK happy with that change either.  We aren't responsible for that change, except perhaps in the minds of misinformed people. I agree with you that input should come from all playstyles, which is the very reason I created my forums.  Now, my playstyle has a voice just the same as yours does. Equality is beautiful.
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Old 08-19-2007, 05:22 PM   #28
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Pinski wrote:
Last I checked, developers can post wherever they want. And about eq2flames, yeah I post there a lot, I also think that there's a lot lower signal->noise ratio over there just due to the fact that there are less morons who post there due to the fact that the morons will be shut down really fast and probably get all butt-hurt and never post there again.  The other thing is, there's a lot of people there that truly care about the game and want to see it succeed so you're just going to have to deal with it. ---
But then again, you guys have Faabio and that amounts to as much noise as a couple of thousand ignorant posters around here SMILEY But I honestly don't mind devs posting and reading eq2flames, I think it is cool the devs talk with players and that they do it in different places. It just shows they get their information from many different sources and that is a good thing imo. Besides there is no drama as the drama you can get on eq2flames, it is amazing, really.
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Old 08-19-2007, 05:22 PM   #29
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Sandain666 wrote:

Wow I am surprised to get som many responses so quickly. Great points all around from everyone. But I can see I was not clear in my original post. Some of you seem to have assumed I do not think the devs should contribute to outside forums. This is NOT the case. My concern is that such information sharing and idea gatheriing should also include the official forums.   If Chris is setting up asking for input in the individual class forums on EQ2flames should he not do the same on Sony's official class forums? If he has done so I have thus far not been able to find it.

His comment in the general thread was something to the effect of (paraphrasing) "You may want to start specific thread in the class forums to discuss merging and leave this thread for general feedback." That was it pretty much. He didn't start the general thread, and didn't request it to be started, but once he saw it was getting into details, he suggested moving those discussions over to the class forums. I am sure he would do the same thing here if there was similar thread. As a matter of fact, I conveyed his suggestion in one of my posts regarding the combining of spells. I don't know if anyone took enough interest to do that, but it would be a good thing. I think he just assumed that a discussion would come forth here as it did there, and that he didn't need to tell everyone "Hey it is ok to start a thread discussion spell merger suggestions."

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Old 08-19-2007, 05:25 PM   #30
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Sandain666 wrote:

Wow I am surprised to get som many responses so quickly. Great points all around from everyone. But I can see I was not clear in my original post. Some of you seem to have assumed I do not think the devs should contribute to outside forums. This is NOT the case. My concern is that such information sharing and idea gatheriing should also include the official forums.   If Chris is setting up asking for input in the individual class forums on EQ2flames should he not do the same on Sony's official class forums? If he has done so I have thus far not been able to find it.

If you use the dev tracker on Aeralik's posts on this forum and on my forum, you will see, overall, that he truly goes out of his way to try and provide input to both forums.  What he can't be expected to do is type the exact same words on each forum so that nobody will feel left out.  I've never seen anyone complain on my forums when Aeralik (or any other dev) posted something on the Official Forums rather than on EQ2Flames.  Why should the opposite be true here?
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