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Old 10-10-2012, 10:59 PM   #31
Meirril

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feldon30 wrote:

Meirril wrote:

feldon30 wrote:

Meirril wrote:

3) Answer the question: What is it worth to you if you fail a fabled combine? What price are you willing to pay for failure? If your answer is none then we should NEVER have recived these combines and everything I've argued for the past 5 years was a waste of time. If you want the big reward, it comes with risks. If you arn't willing to risk why should you get the reward?

4) I'm consistant. I really want us to be able to craft things that are in demand. If this is what dev thinks is fair, I'm willing to agree. Obviously I'm in the minority, but I think its because I think of this differently than the rest of you. I'm not thinking about myself, I'm thinking about crafting over all and its role in EQ2. These recipes mark a transition into something new. If we make enough of a stink about the risks, this might be the very last time we see fabled recipes. Did you take that into consideration?

The chance of losing 1,200+ plat of materials because of a power blink, the EQ2 client crashing, an EQ2 server going down or a zone crashing, or an internet disconnection has NOTHING to do with the challenge or desirability of these items.

There are few certain things in this world, but I can ABSOLUTELY 100% GUARANTEE you that the chance of accidentally losing all the materials was NOT figured into the power and balance of these items.

You seem to believe that if SOE changed it so that failing these combines meant you got all the materials back, they would reduce the power of these items. I don't believe that for a second.

You've just made it my life's mission to get this issue resolved. I'll talk to every dev at Fan Faire who will listen. Thanks.

Instead of rushing into fan fair and making demands, why not ask Omougi the reasoning he has behind it working this way? He is the dev that made this system, he is the dev most likely to change it, and he is the only one that could really answer if this is important or not. More than likely if he is consistant with his past decisions he'll completely flip and make this go from unreasonably hard to unreasonably easy just like he did with collosal made foods.

But if its more important for you to get your way then by all means don't use a reasonable approach or attempt to understand the dev's intent. Have a great time in Vegas.

I've been around long enough to know that this type of thing is rarely down to the "intent of the developer" but more often an oversight. After all, if devs were aware that it costs 1,200-1,800p of materials to make these things, they'd adjust the drop rates.

Ulrichvon wrote:

feldon30 wrote:

However eloquently you put it, you are still excusing a design flaw.

Cause any penalty for failure beyond basic fuel costs, is totally unreasonable!

Cause the EQ2 game client crashing, or the server disconnecting, or the power blinking, or the internet connecting flaking it out and erasing 1,200 platinum of materials is player failure? If you failed to kill a raid mob and lost 1,800p, you'd be ok with that? I mean, you shouldn't have failed after all. It's your fault.

Are you people even reading what you write or just dogmatically banging the "the game needs to be harder, and since crafters make soft targets, let's go after them" drum?

So your saying that a loss of connection, server disconnect, or player-side error is a design flaw that needs to be taken into account and fixed by development instead of a one time reimbursment from customer service? If your going to accuse me of being too harsh, I'll throw it back at you and say you want the easy button and nothing less. Lets not even bring up the question of what would be a reasonable pentalty for failure for an item that involves 6 dropped components, 1 rare harvestable and a little fuel. Obviously because no developer is going to waste that much time and effort on a system of crafting that becomes obsolite in 2 months.

Unless of course you think people will be farming SS and ST after we get 95 content. Kinda like all those people (not) farming Kael now.

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Old 10-11-2012, 01:00 PM   #32
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feldon30 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

feldon30 wrote:

However eloquently you put it, you are still excusing a design flaw.

Cause any penalty for failure beyond basic fuel costs, is totally unreasonable!

Cause the EQ2 game client crashing, or the server disconnecting, or the power blinking, or the internet connecting flaking it out and erasing 1,200 platinum of materials is player failure? If you failed to kill a raid mob and lost 1,800p, you'd be ok with that? I mean, you shouldn't have failed after all. It's your fault.

I'm saying the current system and failure penalty was fine for us for 6 months or so that only raiders were making these items.  Not even 2 weeks after the lazy masses get the access to materials to make it we have a thread demanding to make up for their slack.

Somehow 6 months of raiders doing this caused no issue, but suddenly, in the twilight of the expansion and these recipes being used, its a big issue that there is a very real failure penalty.

And back in June if a raider failed this combine, it was more like 10k plat of value lost.

Ultimately my gripe here comes back to raid crafted gear now available to people doing simple heroic content.  We had an issue of raids not dropping enough raid components, and the sollution delivered was to open it up to heroic content?  Yeah, that made alot of sense.

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Old 10-11-2012, 03:54 PM   #33
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Ulrichvon wrote:

I'm saying the current system and failure penalty was fine for us for 6 months or so that only raiders were making these items.  Not even 2 weeks after the lazy masses get the access to materials to make it we have a thread demanding to make up for their slack.

Somehow 6 months of raiders doing this caused no issue, but suddenly, in the twilight of the expansion and these recipes being used, its a big issue that there is a very real failure penalty.

And back in June if a raider failed this combine, it was more like 10k plat of value lost.

Ultimately my gripe here comes back to raid crafted gear now available to people doing simple heroic content.  We had an issue of raids not dropping enough raid components, and the sollution delivered was to open it up to heroic content?  Yeah, that made alot of sense.

FWIW, six months ago, up until ST, there wasnt enough mats for it to be a noticible issue. 

The number of combines a qualified TS'r would do would be so low, that if an issue arose, a petition would have been a slightly more reasonable solution for all parties involved.  That dynamic has changed, and thus the 'penalty' should be adjusted.  Or, an oversight can be corrected, however you feel comfortable looking at it.

If you want 'hard-core' crafting, wear a blindfold and stand on your head while doing combines.  That would impress me.  Now, if only SOEmote would capture that moment...

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Old 10-12-2012, 01:40 PM   #34
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Ulrichvon wrote:

I'm saying the current system and failure penalty was fine for us for 6 months or so that only raiders were making these items.  Not even 2 weeks after the lazy masses get the access to materials to make it we have a thread demanding to make up for their slack.

Somehow 6 months of raiders doing this caused no issue, but suddenly, in the twilight of the expansion and these recipes being used, its a big issue that there is a very real failure penalty.

And back in June if a raider failed this combine, it was more like 10k plat of value lost.

Ultimately my gripe here comes back to raid crafted gear now available to people doing simple heroic content.  We had an issue of raids not dropping enough raid components, and the sollution delivered was to open it up to heroic content?  Yeah, that made alot of sense.

You're not even trying to hide your belief that other players are beneath you and only worthy of contempt and sarcasm.

It's a design flaw. It doesn't matter who discovered it. It doesn't matter that people can work around it by using a Progress potion or waving a dead chicken over their PC. It doesn't matter that someone was more harmed by the flaw 6 months ago than they are now. It's still a flaw.

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Old 10-12-2012, 02:36 PM   #35
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feldon30 wrote:

It's a design flaw. It doesn't matter who discovered it. It doesn't matter that people can work around it by using a Progress potion or waving a dead chicken over their PC. It doesn't matter that someone was more harmed by the flaw 6 months ago than they are now. It's still a flaw.

What recipe in game returns more than the primary component on failure?

Seems that is the system as it is designed.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, I think its stupid to have raid crafted gear coming from heroic instances, that has little to do with contempt or where I vew people.

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Old 10-12-2012, 03:30 PM   #36
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It doesn't.  It comes from a crafter who has a raid dropped research assistant, which unless something else has changed, is certainly not impossible, but it is generally a lot less 'trivial' to acquire.  By the time those raid dropped research assistants are so prevelant that everyon has one, the content/items they produce will be completely irrelevant for all intents and purposes.

And before you go down the path of 'well they can be purchased off the broker', let me suggest thats no different than a raid dropped item that is sold via SLR.  It happens, but those who acquire via SLR generally pay pretty dearly for it.

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Old 10-15-2012, 05:17 PM   #37
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feldon30 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

I'm saying the current system and failure penalty was fine for us for 6 months or so that only raiders were making these items.  Not even 2 weeks after the lazy masses get the access to materials to make it we have a thread demanding to make up for their slack.

Somehow 6 months of raiders doing this caused no issue, but suddenly, in the twilight of the expansion and these recipes being used, its a big issue that there is a very real failure penalty.

And back in June if a raider failed this combine, it was more like 10k plat of value lost.

Ultimately my gripe here comes back to raid crafted gear now available to people doing simple heroic content.  We had an issue of raids not dropping enough raid components, and the sollution delivered was to open it up to heroic content?  Yeah, that made alot of sense.

You're not even trying to hide your belief that other players are beneath you and only worthy of contempt and sarcasm.

It's a design flaw. It doesn't matter who discovered it. It doesn't matter that people can work around it by using a Progress potion or waving a dead chicken over their PC. It doesn't matter that someone was more harmed by the flaw 6 months ago than they are now. It's still a flaw.

Or just pay attention to a crafting combine, playing conservative with durability counters, and not having someone or something interrupt the player, his computer or internet connection. Seriously, when was the last time you failed a non-quest combine? The last time I did was over 2 years ago and it was because I used nothing but progress-progress-progress counters for the entire combine! I still do that on combines I don't care about and I can usually mix in enough durability at the end to counter any failures or crit failures.

But this obviously needs to be fixed. Because dev wants to take responsability for player or ISP failure.

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Old 10-16-2012, 01:58 PM   #38
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Meirril wrote:

But this obviously needs to be fixed. Because dev wants to take responsability for player or ISP failure.

There is nothing to fix.  The mechanics of tradeskilling is on a failed combine only the primary component is returned. 

This is expected behavior, its reinforced by years of standards, and its not unexpected with these recipes.  I don't think its a wise use of resources to add new special conditions for just these recipes.

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Old 10-16-2012, 02:50 PM   #39
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Ulrichvon wrote:

Meirril wrote:

But this obviously needs to be fixed. Because dev wants to take responsability for player or ISP failure.

There is nothing to fix.  The mechanics of tradeskilling is on a failed combine only the primary component is returned. 

This is expected behavior, its reinforced by years of standards, and its not unexpected with these recipes.  I don't think its a wise use of resources to add new special conditions for just these recipes.

Your basic assumption is incorrect. When ry'gorr armor used shards, a fail returned the gem and  the shards. Drunder armor returns the special 'ores' and the shards. In the past the all of the 'special components' have been returned on a failed combine. These just happen to be the first recipes that ALL of the components are 'special components'.

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Old 10-20-2012, 02:13 PM   #40
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Meirril wrote:

feldon30 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

I'm saying the current system and failure penalty was fine for us for 6 months or so that only raiders were making these items.  Not even 2 weeks after the lazy masses get the access to materials to make it we have a thread demanding to make up for their slack.

Somehow 6 months of raiders doing this caused no issue, but suddenly, in the twilight of the expansion and these recipes being used, its a big issue that there is a very real failure penalty.

And back in June if a raider failed this combine, it was more like 10k plat of value lost.

Ultimately my gripe here comes back to raid crafted gear now available to people doing simple heroic content.  We had an issue of raids not dropping enough raid components, and the sollution delivered was to open it up to heroic content?  Yeah, that made alot of sense.

You're not even trying to hide your belief that other players are beneath you and only worthy of contempt and sarcasm.

It's a design flaw. It doesn't matter who discovered it. It doesn't matter that people can work around it by using a Progress potion or waving a dead chicken over their PC. It doesn't matter that someone was more harmed by the flaw 6 months ago than they are now. It's still a flaw.

Or just pay attention to a crafting combine, playing conservative with durability counters, and not having someone or something interrupt the player, his computer or internet connection. 

....

But this obviously needs to be fixed. Because dev wants to take responsability for player or ISP failure.

Because, obviously, that's always possible. You obviously live on your own island where a car never hits a telephone pole and knocks out your power, or freaks of nature suddenly happen, right?

Feldon isn't saying the devs need to "take responsibility" for an ISP failure. He is saying they should minimize the absolutely horrific consequences of something that falls under the "s--- happens" category, which is NO ONE'S fault. It's just....s--- happens.

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Old 10-21-2012, 01:03 AM   #41
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[email protected] wrote:

Meirril wrote:

feldon30 wrote:

Ulrichvon wrote:

I'm saying the current system and failure penalty was fine for us for 6 months or so that only raiders were making these items.  Not even 2 weeks after the lazy masses get the access to materials to make it we have a thread demanding to make up for their slack.

Somehow 6 months of raiders doing this caused no issue, but suddenly, in the twilight of the expansion and these recipes being used, its a big issue that there is a very real failure penalty.

And back in June if a raider failed this combine, it was more like 10k plat of value lost.

Ultimately my gripe here comes back to raid crafted gear now available to people doing simple heroic content.  We had an issue of raids not dropping enough raid components, and the sollution delivered was to open it up to heroic content?  Yeah, that made alot of sense.

You're not even trying to hide your belief that other players are beneath you and only worthy of contempt and sarcasm.

It's a design flaw. It doesn't matter who discovered it. It doesn't matter that people can work around it by using a Progress potion or waving a dead chicken over their PC. It doesn't matter that someone was more harmed by the flaw 6 months ago than they are now. It's still a flaw.

Or just pay attention to a crafting combine, playing conservative with durability counters, and not having someone or something interrupt the player, his computer or internet connection. 

....

But this obviously needs to be fixed. Because dev wants to take responsability for player or ISP failure.

Because, obviously, that's always possible. You obviously live on your own island where a car never hits a telephone pole and knocks out your power, or freaks of nature suddenly happen, right?

Feldon isn't saying the devs need to "take responsibility" for an ISP failure. He is saying they should minimize the absolutely horrific consequences of something that falls under the "s--- happens" category, which is NO ONE'S fault. It's just....s--- happens.

Horrific consequences?  You're acting as if someone dies, IRL, if a combine fails...Costly consequences?  That was before Sleepers Tomb was added, dropping Prime components like candy.Moderate consequences?  That may still be pushing it, but, I am feeling generous, so moderate it is.If you do not want to run the risk of your power going out, or net dropping, decline the request to make the combine. No one is threatening you with eternal pain and suffering if you do not make the combine. Alternatively, you can ensure the customer is aware that in the event of failure, it is their loss, not yours. If the customer does not like that, politely inform them that you decline the request, and encourage them to go get the recipe for themself.I like the presence of risk in the crafting scene, reminds me of the good old days.Edit : The only solution required, is Tradeskillers being smarter with commissions.  Inform the customer that you will do the combine for XX plat (no guarantee), or alternatively you can do it for YY plat and guarantee success. Adjust your prices based on the combine being made (and cost of components), and let the customer choose if they want a guaranteed result. Unless you are habitually vulnerable to going LD, this stands to provide a better profit margin, and in the event of "horrific" consequences, you're covered.Easy as that.

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Old 10-21-2012, 09:54 AM   #42
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Horrific consequences?  You're acting as if someone dies, IRL, if a combine fails...

Even if that were the case, I am sure we would get people on this forum defending it as intended.

"My cat jumped on my keyboard and caused me to fail my combine, which resulted in an orphanage burning to the ground!"

"Uh, yeah, that's the risk you take. A crafter needs to be prepared, god forbid there's a consequence for failure! Risk versus reward! Charge more in the future so that you can donate plat from your profit margin to the burnt down orphanage. Personally I like the presence of risk, crafting is much more exciting when somebody's life is on the line. Like the good old days!"

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Old 10-21-2012, 11:26 PM   #43
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Horrific consequences?  You're acting as if someone dies, IRL, if a combine fails...

Even if that were the case, I am sure we would get people on this forum defending it as intended.

"My cat jumped on my keyboard and caused me to fail my combine, which resulted in an orphanage burning to the ground!"

"Uh, yeah, that's the risk you take. A crafter needs to be prepared, god forbid there's a consequence for failure! Risk versus reward! Charge more in the future so that you can donate plat from your profit margin to the burnt down orphanage. Personally I like the presence of risk, crafting is much more exciting when somebody's life is on the line. Like the good old days!"

You know, Customer Service is very understanding the first time a cat jumps on your keyboard and stops the combine you just started. Its about the third time in a month this happens that they start to question your integrity.

Seriously, how often do you fail any combine?

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