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Old 01-26-2005, 04:22 PM   #31
lastlig

 
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You are basing the utility of a class based on one spell. I find it hard to believe that scouts are hard to find, considering Wizards are really the only popular spellcasting class. Enchanters are quite rare, with Conjurors and Necros not that far behind. A good chunk of my last few levels has been spent with at most 1 other mage in the group. Oftentimes there are no others. And while wizards have evac, summoners do have the best single target add control.

Scouts are very hard to find on Lucan.  There are only two scouts that I know of that are 45+.  There are some scouts that are starting to reach the 40s, but overall they represent a minority.  There are just too many wizards, a lot of tanks, a lot of healers and thats it.

On Lucan, there are actually more Illusionists than there are conjurors.  I'm the highest level conjuror by TWELVE levels.  One of my friends is the second highest necromancer by something like TEN levels.  Most summoners that I know of slow down or quit when they reach 35.  Now, compare this to the fact that, from what I have read, there were A LOT of conjurors during Beta.  When people simply gloss over a class, there is a problem.

My point is that when considering group utility, Conjurors are dead last.  Wizards do more damage, have good crowd control and have evac which is priceless.  I would give up my fire or air pet in a moment's notice for evac.  That is how important it is at higher levels.  It is important to complete heritage quests.  It saves time traveling.  It saves lives.  It prevents death.  I could go on and on.  Likewise, Illusionists offer great group enhancing skills, including Breeze and haste.  Breeze is critical for raiding and, while I would like to say that raid critters are for the end game, there are raid critters for ALL levels.

The summoner-enchanter comparison is pretty pointless anyway. They are not classes that stack or interfere. Enchanters are pure utility, summoners are a mix of utility and DPS. Wizards will probably out-DPS summoners on single targets after they get fixed. Evac is cloned by every other DPS. Their mez is rather pointless. AE root? Yeah, that's useful. That leaves the direct power transfer, about the only ability of real use.

As I said, your thoughts will change when you actually get into the nitty gritty levels of EQ2.  You are the only spellcaster in your group, according to your statement.  Furthermore, I can guess that because you are level 35, you don't group with many wizards that have Ball of Flame.  Ball of Flame + Immolation = 1300 damage with two spells.  To say that wizards will "probably" out-DPS summoners on single targets after they get fixed shows a complete blindness to game mechanics.  According to your statements, Conjurors are the highest damage DPS mage class for both single target critters as well as group critters. 

I don't even know where to start here.  The overwhelming majority of people on these boards seem to disagree with you.  Furthermore, public sentiment is against you.  If Conjurors were the master of damage, more people would play them.  More powergamers would play them.  More ebayers would create conjurors since there would be a higher demand for level 50 conjurors.  You know what?  No one is playing Conjurors.  Is the entire world blind?  I don't think so.

Ice Comet + Ball of Flames + Immolation = 2600 damage in ten seconds.  Throw in Protoflame which does comparable damage to Aqueous Hunters.  Now throw in Fiery Pulse.  There's nothing we can do to compete.  I mean, ALL mage classes can summon creatures ala Aqueous Hunters.

 


I'm not championing the class. SOE has no idea how to make a spellcasting class after all these years. They re-introduced all of the mage/melee issues from EQ1 in day 1 in EQ2. I'm just sick and F***ING tired of people complaining about the class. I'm not at the high level, and I will likely never see it either because this game sucks. The game fundamentally sucks. I've learned to like the conjuror class and deal with its differences from the Magician in EQ1.

Read the FAQ.  This is NOT EQ1.  The developers have said that EQ2 was developed for people that left EQ1 because of game mechanics.  In other words, all your knowledge about the conjuoror that is derived from a magician in EQ1 is useless.  It doesn't mean anything in EQ2.  Different game mechanics, different damage scales, different game designers and so on.

You are ignoring the archtype system of EQ2.  The whole point of the archtype system is that you are supposed to be able to exchange one member of an archtype for another member of the same archtype.  This is the fundamental basis of EQ2.  This is the core of the game design.  THAT is what some people are complaining about. 

I don't want to do as much damage as a wizard.  As my earlier post indicated, I am talking in terms of group utility when measuring the Archtype system.  If I am forming a group and we're going to Solusek and I have a choice between a level 50 wizard and a level 50 conjuror, I would most likely pick the wizard because of higher group utility.  That breaks the archtype system.  There's no reason to pick a Conjuror over a wizard or an illusionist if you are min/maxing a group. 

 


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Old 01-26-2005, 09:50 PM   #32
Ixiter

 
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My point is that when considering group utility, Conjurors are dead last. Wizards do more damage, have good crowd control and have evac which is priceless. I would give up my fire or air pet in a moment's notice for evac. That is how important it is at higher levels. It is important to complete heritage quests. It saves time traveling. It saves lives. It prevents death. I could go on and on. Likewise, Illusionists offer great group enhancing skills, including Breeze and haste. Breeze is critical for raiding and, while I would like to say that raid critters are for the end game, there are raid critters for ALL levels.Ok, where exactly have you been the last couple weeks? Have you not seen the thousands of posts by angry wizards and warlocks complaining about how their DPS plain sucks? I'm not gonna keep arguing this. Yes, Conjurors will out-damage all but maybe level 50 wizards with their new DD, even on single targets. I've parsed it and found it to be true, other people in their mid- to high forties have parsed it and found it to be true. Wizards are the worst DPS class in the game--except enchanters for raw DPS. Have *you* done any parsing, or do you just assume that because the wizard has a big bang he's doing more damage? Because that is SURE what it sounds like.I don't even know where to start here. The overwhelming majority of people on these boards seem to disagree with you. Furthermore, public sentiment is against you. If Conjurors were the master of damage, more people would play them. More powergamers would play them. More ebayers would create conjurors since there would be a higher demand for level 50 conjurors. You know what? No one is playing Conjurors. Is the entire world blind? I don't think so.This game is still in its infancy. Your arguments are pretty weak. "Oh more powergamers would play them." What does DPS have to do with being a powergamer? Conjurors are definitely not the highest DPS pre-30 either, so some people will get impressions from that. As far as the "demand," mages weren't that common in EQ1, they're not that common in EQ2. However, you're basing things from your server, which appears to be different from every other server, considering there are "no high level scouts," which I still call BS on, but that's besides the point. Basically you say the only classes being played to the endgame are tanks, wizards, and healers (of which druids especially have their own set of problems). Give me a break.Read the FAQ. This is NOT EQ1. The developers have said that EQ2 was developed for people that left EQ1 because of game mechanics. In other words, all your knowledge about the conjuoror that is derived from a magician in EQ1 is useless. It doesn't mean anything in EQ2. Different game mechanics, different damage scales, different game designers and so on.Thanks for ignoring what I said and ranting because I mentioned EQ1.
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Old 01-26-2005, 11:03 PM   #33
lastlig

 
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Ok, where exactly have you been the last couple weeks? Have you not seen the thousands of posts by angry wizards and warlocks complaining about how their DPS plain sucks? I'm not gonna keep arguing this. Yes, Conjurors will out-damage all but maybe level 50 wizards with their new DD, even on single targets. I've parsed it and found it to be true, other people in their mid- to high forties have parsed it and found it to be true. Wizards are the worst DPS class in the game--except enchanters for raw DPS. Have *you* done any parsing, or do you just assume that because the wizard has a big bang he's doing more damage? Because that is SURE what it sounds like.

You are only level 35.  You are still going through the euphoria of Roaring Flames, Shattered Earth and Flaming Agony.  You probably have the level 30 training pet.  All these neat spells don't make a difference once you are level 42+.  Your damage will not scale as you level  In otherwords, your Klicnik's Bite does the same damage as your Spiked Rain.  Shattered Earth does about the same damage as Shattered Ground.  Flaming Agony does the same damage as Flaming Doom.  Your level 30 training pet becomes unusable around level 43.  Your earth pet will no longer stun.  Our damage does not scale with level.

Regarding the comment about wizards.  Most of the wizards that are complaining are complaing because fighters and scouts do more damage than wizards.  Let's consider a berzerker. A berzerker can have nearly double the DPS of a wizard.  Furthermore, a berzerker can wear heavy plate and has nearly twice as many hit points.  That is what wizards are complaining about.  Why play a wizard (or a conjuror, for that matter) when you play a berzerker and do more damage, have far more choices in armor, can utilize far more of the heritage items in the game and so on.

This game is still in its infancy. Your arguments are pretty weak. "Oh more powergamers would play them." What does DPS have to do with being a powergamer? Conjurors are definitely not the highest DPS pre-30 either, so some people will get impressions from that. As far as the "demand," mages weren't that common in EQ1, they're not that common in EQ2. However, you're basing things from your server, which appears to be different from every other server, considering there are "no high level scouts," which I still call BS on, but that's besides the point. Basically you say the only classes being played to the endgame are tanks, wizards, and healers (of which druids especially have their own set of problems). Give me a break.

Don't tell me about how my server is.  There are only two 45+ level scouts on Lucan.  One is an assassin and the other is a dirge.  That's it.  The highest level ranger is 40.  The highest level brigand recently deleted herself because she couldn't find a group.  Want me to continue?  I have consistently grouped up to level 48 without grouping with a scout.  They are rare on my server, for my level.

Conjurors have a nice level 30-40.  So, according to your post, we're bad DPS before level 30 and, according to my experience, we're bad DPS after level 40.  So, enjoy your ten levels.  Assuming you don't quit (You did, after all, say that EQ2 "sucks"), you'll be whining with the rest of us past level 40.  Read the rest of the posts here.  Nearly all the 40+ conjurors complain about DPS and our role in a group.


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Old 01-27-2005, 12:10 AM   #34
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You are only level 35. You are still going through the euphoria of Roaring Flames, Shattered Earth and Flaming Agony. You probably have the level 30 training pet. All these neat spells don't make a difference once you are level 42+. Your damage will not scale as you level In otherwords, your Klicnik's Bite does the same damage as your Spiked Rain. Shattered Earth does about the same damage as Shattered Ground. Flaming Agony does the same damage as Flaming Doom. Your level 30 training pet becomes unusable around level 43. Your earth pet will no longer stun. Our damage does not scale with level.I'm 37, I don't update my sig that frequently. I do not have and have no need for the level 30 training pet. Any parse I've ever done was with the Earth pet. And every. single. spell. casting. class. has. the. level. scaling. ISSUE. That includes healers. But you'd rather whine only about your class because you don't care about any others and don't pay any attention.http://eq2.magecompendium.com/viewtopic.php?t=1089Caleb (44 Wizard) Average DPS: 60.58 Total Damage: 25,263Leviath (42 Berserker) Average DPS: 82.72 Total Damage: 35,239Ryde (40 Conjuror) Average DPS: 42.30 Total Damage: 17,554 Ryde's Tellurian Veteran (Adept I Earth) Average DPS: 49.16 Total Damage: 20,794 Ryde's Aqua Alpha (Adept III) Average DPS: 21.98 Total Damage: 3,319 Ryde's Aqua Hunters (2 Hunters - Adept III) Average DPS: 29.59 Total Damage: 4,527Hey lookie, it's a raid encounter too! And that, of course, is not including fire/infernous seed. So a level 44 wizard is doing half the DPS of a level 40 Conjuror. There's only 6 levels more for that wizard to make up such a large gap, while the Conjuror has 10 to improve it.Conjurors have a nice level 30-40. So, according to your post, we're bad DPS before level 30 and, according to my experience, we're bad DPS after level 40. So, enjoy your ten levels. Assuming you don't quit (You did, after all, say that EQ2 "sucks"), you'll be whining with the rest of us past level 40. Read the rest of the posts here. Nearly all the 40+ conjurors complain about DPS and our role in a group.You officially join Bauglir in the "wah we suck but I won't give proof" category. And it's quite infuriating in your case since I am not your level and can't prove it to you. And show me all of the 40+ whining Conjurors too. I see Bauglir (who isn't even 40+), and you.It's not that hard. Whip out any old parser and prove it to me. Why are you so afraid? And make sure you include the actual spell and pet damage. Here's the link: http://home.inreach.com/kai/EQCompanion/Until you prove it, discussion over. I'm not going to listen to what you think is happening, versus what is really happening.
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Old 01-27-2005, 01:27 AM   #35
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Caleb (44 Wizard)
Average DPS: 60.58
Total Damage: 25,263

... No indication of what level the wizzies spells were at.  No indication of what training options were taken.  Furthermore, this is consistent damage.  The Shattered Line is on a 60 second timer, the Hunters are on 90 seconds.  Wizards don't have comparable delays.

No inclusion of the post level 48 wizard spells. 


Leviath (42 Berserker)
Average DPS: 82.72
Total Damage: 35,239

*yawn*  No indication of what equipment the berserker was wearing.  Give a berserker the Claymore or duel wield the Shortsword and the PGT and watch the DPS go up.  And let's not forget some of the 42+ berserker abilities which you probably don't know about.


Ryde (40 Conjuror)
Average DPS: 42.30
Total Damage: 17,554

No indication of how many critters Ryde was fighting.  Furthermore, this parse mentions that this is over a single encounter.  That means, when you realistically go onto the next fight, you will not be able to cast Shattered Earth again.  So, your DPS will drop in half.

This fight does not contain many single ^^ encounters, so any damage numbers here are skewed.  The end game content is mostly ^^.  The CH encounters are usually three or four critters in a single group.  No parser on single ^^ or double ^ encounters.

Furthermore, the poster here noted that this encounter was long.  Do you know what that means?  That means that his DoTs are maximized because the timers will run on them.  In standard ^^ ad ^ and single fights, your DPS will drop because your DoT duration will never be maximized.  Critters will die before your DoT damage realized.  This is why burst damage is better and more efficient.  My group can kill yellow ^^ critters before Fiery Doom triggers its DD.  Again, this is about experience, not numbers.


Ryde's Tellurian Veteran (Adept I Earth)
Average DPS: 49.16
Total Damage: 20,794

And here is where the problems really start.  First, using Vehemet Stone and Vexation will drain your power at higher levels.  And there's no way around that.  I have the Master I essence shift and I don't have enough power to maintain both spells, cast frequently and move at the same time.  Furthermore, if you are going to essence shift during battle, your DPS will drop.  While numbers are nice and great, they don't replace experience. 

Ryde's Aqua Alpha (Adept III)
Average DPS: 21.98
Total Damage: 3,319

Ryde's Aqua Hunters (2 Hunters - Adept III)
Average DPS: 29.59
Total Damage: 4,527

Great.  Now let's consider that this spell is on a 90 second timer.  That means that you can only cast this spell once every three fights.  So, this number is skewed.  For the next two fights, your DPS drops.


Hey lookie, it's a raid encounter too! And that, of course, is not including fire/infernous seed. So a level 44 wizard is doing half the DPS of a level 40 Conjuror. There's only 6 levels more for that wizard to make up such a large gap, while the Conjuror has 10 to improve it.

Read my post.  I have always said that Infernous Seed saves our class.  Besides, these numbers are skewed and maximized to prove a point.  Get to higher levels.  If you want me to get a parse, I will.

You officially join Bauglir in the "wah we suck but I won't give proof" category. And it's quite infuriating in your case since I am not your level and can't prove it to you.

Your right, you aren't my level and you won't be for a long time.

Until you prove it, discussion over. I'm not going to listen to what you think is happening, versus what is really happening.

And until you reach higher levels, your opinion on how the 42-50 game goes is meaningless. 


Message Edited by lastlight on 01-26-2005 12:30 PM

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Old 01-27-2005, 02:00 AM   #36
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"If you want me to get a parse, I will."Bingo! Make sure to include the individual spell damage as I said earlier as well, otherwise it is meaningless as you can easily slack like Bauglir does and say "this proves my point." Do it over 10 or 20 fights or whatever so that the longer-timed spells can show their true DPS over time.
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Old 01-27-2005, 08:09 AM   #37
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This thread has become pointless, it is being dominated by a die hard troll that freely admits he's done with the game but yet he feels oblighated that he must bash anyone that voices concern over the state of the conjuror class.
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