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Old 03-30-2010, 07:56 PM   #181
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[email protected] wrote:

That's why i stated 80% in regards to the top chanter parse and 70-80% when i referred to all 4 as a group.

Since you didnt post any real numbers, I am going to conclude your T1 dpser's suck.  SMILEY

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Old 03-31-2010, 01:08 PM   #182
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[email protected] wrote:

And Staven I agree.    Coercers used to be the suck and needed fixed.   However, they are in no danger of that happening again this expansion. 

Well as it happens, Coercers didn't get fixed. Our CC ability in raid is still zero. You know our primary job? Or at least was when many of us started our Coercers. What they did was the lazy way out, boosted the snot out of our DPS, but never addressed our primary mission. So some would argue that we still be the suck and instead of "However, they are in no danger of that happening again this expansion" to "with another expansion, SoE has ignored the oportunity to fix the enchanter class and instead reverted to their old method of killing them by slow nerf". Again, I don't care if I don't make the parse anymore. I'm there for more then DPS, howerer I would like our class defining skill to be fixed. How would you like for them to nerf all your healing abilities and instead of fixing those abilities they give you a dramatic increase to your melee dps to get you to shut up? Imagine all of a sudden parsing in the same range of assassins and rangers, but your healing abilities nerfed to unuseability. Say tanks get an invincible mode and don't really need heals anymore. That is what was done to the Enchanters and that is what has never been fixed. They boosted the crap out of our dps to compensate for their inabiltity or unwillingness to fix our CC abilities. (in their minds a fair compensation although no enchanters think so). That boosted dps is now under assault. Not that is surprises me. What truely surprises me is that we were allowed to hold on to good dps for as long as we did before the nerf.

Yes you can say that the Coercers in our guild are #5 and #9 on the parse, but that doesn't mean much when #1-#4 on parse is doing 40-45K and #5 is doing 18K and #9 is doing 11K.  And yes occasionally the #5 Coercer does spike up to 22-25K, but not very often. Who are #1-#4? Warlock, Wizard, Conjuror, Necro and Ranger. (no assassins in our guild) For some reason I don't remember ever seeing the Conjuror and Necro in the raid on the same time. Not saying they weren't, just that I don't remember. That's not 80% but 50%.

But that isn't even the problem. Ok, so they are nerfing our dps. So what. That is nothing compared to not fixing our cc abilities, nerfing the Illusionist mana regen ability and giving us an overall super underwhelming new aa abilities.

So are we broke? No. But for many of us old timers that isn't the issue. The issue is that we are starting to see SoE revert to their old way of slowing crapping on our classes and we aren't happy about it.

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Old 03-31-2010, 02:30 PM   #183
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Our enchanter parses are fairly clustered (we have one illy who is an exception with relatively low parses) although I see where coercers have much more DPS potential with blue aoes, etc.  My dps spikes on single target mobs where the coercer pass me right up on multi-targets.  I said I would post something from SF, but unfortunately I didn't have my parser running until we started the 2x post raid.   We ran the 2x with one tank, the SK, and he was ZW 2nd on the parse.

Here is a regular trash mob:

Conjy | 2273455 | 37270 | 16%

Wiz | 1788929 | 29327 | 13%

Assassin | 1774170 | 29085 | 13%

SK | 1579148 | 25888 | 11%

Fury | 1319350 | 21629 | 9%

Illy (me) | 1298020 | 21279 | 9%

Coercer | 1272290 | 20857 | 9%

Coercer | 976341 | 16006 | 7%

Dirge | 616371 | 10104 | 4%

Mystic | 448378 | 7350 | 3%

Defiler | 97157 | 1593 | 0%

Templar | 14301 | 234 | 0%

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Old 03-31-2010, 03:37 PM   #184
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[email protected] wrote:

Oh I'm sure Surreal has the best illusionists WW.... doesn't change the fact that it was a 650k parse (only about twice the dps of most average guilds) of a < 2 min fight that is trivial.   Not to mention when it was posted on flames it was followed by about 10 pages of disbelieve, accusations about doctoring parses, accusations of cheating etc.  I have no opinion either way whether it is a true parse... It is probably true Sureal is beast.  Doesn't change the fact that a super inflated  <2 min parse of 650k might not be the best parse to champion your cause with.  

I read the 2 pages of illusionist wish list.   It pales in comparision to the 100's of pages of complains/ wishes/ calls for fixes in the summoner forums of the past 2.5 years.  

I purposely left out the numbers from our parses to avoid this changing into a our guild is better than your guild thread.  Whether our ZW is 400k or 200k doesn't change the fact that dps/utility classes are parsing 70-80% of the 'T1 dps' classes.  Seems about right... maybe the sky isn't falling.

But I'll leave you alone in your cry thread and feel free chase out anyone else that disagrees with you.   I don't need to raid on a 90 illusionist to understand that class balance might actually improve the longevity and playability of this game.  It was clearly me being hostile to you lol.

PS:  I dont think class balance has been achieved.  There are still OP classes, it's just that chanters are not one of them. 

Surreals parse is pretty close to the % of DPS by characters played at max potential.  Illusionists are doing less than half of T1 DPS when equally geared and skilled. Bards and DPS healers are where they have always sat in the DPS scale, except Illusionists are now sitting below them.  There is something very wrong with this. Im getting about 20k zw, impressive right? But wait, the sorcerors and summoners in my guild are hitting 40k, and the bards are doing 22-25k... less impressive now.  The fury in my guild can do the same as the bards when not focusing on heals.

The focus on crit bonus and potency massively shafted Illusionists, because we previously focused on fast hitting spells. Now everyone else is capped on cast speed but also have much bigger damage spreads which get boosted more by crit bonus and potency. I only gained about 4k DPS going from T8 fabled to T9 fabled, but the sorcerors and summoners pretty much doubled their DPS.

But I mean hey, if you put me next to a terribad wizard doing 22k then Illusionists must be doing awesome in SF! Am I right?

When looking at class balance you need to look at the maximum potential of the class. If your utility are doing 80% of your T1 DPS in SF, then your T1 DPS suck.

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Old 04-07-2010, 02:23 PM   #185
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You know what would probably fix most of this?

Revert the proc change..

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Old 04-07-2010, 05:22 PM   #186
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Carthrax wrote:

You know what would probably fix most of this?

Revert the proc change..

no, that would reduce the symptoms but not the cause.

the major problem is

1) as many posted before, CC was removed from the game. that is/was what most chanters/ilus saw as (the stated) class role. I still wouldnt believe that would come back.

2) The SF mechanics define chanters to suck due to their low spell values. everyone in raid gear is capped on castspeed, crit, base damage. close to crit on reuse. Ilus are also capped on +dam so there is only crit bonus for improvement (which relatively gives chanters less than others. 5% bonus to 10k comet is way more than 10% bonus to 3k beam. procs wont help chanters at all as they wont crit. so no crit, crit bonus for procs.

3) buffs get useless. who needs TC? 20% crit? everyone is above cap,  10% reuse? most people close to cap. recovery? not really helpful anyway.  25% DA? who isnt at least at 90? maybe a few healers. attack speed? not really helpful for most as capped. 10% DA bonus for the buff? whoot. there is not a single raidwide buff. even a sk, monk or bard buffs more to the raid than a chanter

nothing left to help out chanters - just depressing.

And the most annoying part? NOT A SINGLE WORD FROM ANY DEV. Since beta this was said. No response, no acknowledgement, no comment, JUST PLAIN NOTHING. This is insulting.

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Old 04-07-2010, 09:36 PM   #187
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Ebarel wrote:

And the most annoying part? NOT A SINGLE WORD FROM ANY DEV. Since beta this was said. No response, no acknowledgement, no comment, JUST PLAIN NOTHING. This is insulting.

You say this as if you are supprised. There is no response, acknowledgement or comment for a good reason, they don't feel there is any problems with enchanters, as least not enough problems to warrant a response. And even if they should accidently agree that there is a problem, they have no clue what to do about it without upsetting all the other mage classes (you know, the classes that were screaming for our nerfs?). Sorry that the Illusionist are in the same boat that Coercers have found themselves in before. It sucks, it will make you more irratable and eventually if will make you really made as more and more updates come out with no fixes for the enchanters and you should actually expect more nerfs. That's what Coercers went through for a long time.

This will go on for a long time until more and more enchanters decide to shelve their toons and move on to a different class or quit the game. Eventually they will fix us again, just don't count on it anytime soon. Do have a recommendation, start going around ANON  so people don't start sending you tells asking to join their groups, plus it makes us very scarce and  people can start asking where all the Enchanters are.

On my server almost every raiding guild is looking for at least one Enchanter, be it a Coercer or Illusionist. Some are looking for two. Maybe if it stays that way enough people will complain to get our issues addressed.

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Old 04-08-2010, 03:52 AM   #188
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Jeepned2 wrote:

Ebarel wrote:

And the most annoying part? NOT A SINGLE WORD FROM ANY DEV. Since beta this was said. No response, no acknowledgement, no comment, JUST PLAIN NOTHING. This is insulting.

You say this as if you are supprised. There is no response, acknowledgement or comment for a good reason, they don't feel there is any problems with enchanters, as least not enough problems to warrant a response. And even if they should accidently agree that there is a problem, they have no clue what to do about it without upsetting all the other mage classes (you know, the classes that were screaming for our nerfs?).

No, i am not surprised. I am just annoyed about the ignorance. There are smaller issues with less posts where a dev states something. Even if they think all is fine, blind to what is happening to the chanter population and without any clue about the class they could at least make a statement that it is their opinon and no changes needed. That has been done on other issues and at least the Chanters would know what to expect. Just being ignored just makes things worse.

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Old 04-10-2010, 01:26 PM   #189
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Ebarel wrote:

No, i am not surprised. I am just annoyed about the ignorance. There are smaller issues with less posts where a dev states something. Even if they think all is fine, blind to what is happening to the chanter population and without any clue about the class they could at least make a statement that it is their opinon and no changes needed. That has been done on other issues and at least the Chanters would know what to expect. Just being ignored just makes things worse.

I already know what I expect, nothing. No response, no changes (at least not for the good) and a continued ignoring of the problems with Chanters. That's what Coercers got in the past, and I don't expect any change. From previous experience I would be happy if they totally ignored us, it's when they don't ignore us that we get nerfed more. And yes, if you haven't learned by now, there are a ton of smaller issues that the devs post about for other classes, but you have to remember, those classes are much more important then we are. It's just the way the ball rolls here. I'm just sorry to see the Illusionists get caught up in the Coercer's "business as usual".

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Old 04-19-2010, 11:12 PM   #190
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The chanters in my guild formed a Union... "Brotherhood of the Mana"  we told our gu leader we were tired of being held down by the man and we were creating our own voice for protestests and walk outs and so forth....  Maybe we should create a game wide Enchanter Union?  and refuse to raid untill they fix us.

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Old 04-20-2010, 11:44 AM   #191
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I mean, you guys were never meant to be t1 DPS anyway. Be happy with your 25k and do your job.

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Old 04-20-2010, 04:56 PM   #192
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I mean, you guys were never meant to be t1 DPS anyway. Be happy with your 25k and do your job.

By our job, do you mean CC?  That would be agreeable.  Because I do not find it fun to feed you mana so that you can out parse me.    

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Old 04-20-2010, 09:19 PM   #193
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I mean, you guys were never meant to be t1 DPS anyway. Be happy with your 25k and do your job.

I love people like you, I give them a dehate, then right beffore pulling a hard mob, take away the dehate. Nothing makes me feel better then watching a warlock laying face down while I out parse you.

And yes, I to would be happy if I could CC and no, I never expected to be T1 dps, but really don't like getting smoked by monks, SKs, zerkers and furies either.

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Old 04-23-2010, 11:48 AM   #194
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I mean, you guys were never meant to be t1 DPS anyway. Be happy with your 25k and do your job.

Obvious troll is obvious.

But for $hits and giggles, inform us what our function is oh learned one. So we can laugh at you.

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Old 04-23-2010, 12:53 PM   #195
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I mean, you guys were never meant to be t1 DPS anyway. Be happy with your 25k and do your job.

I'm curious in what world illy's do 25k dps consistantly. The only time I'd get to that range would be if I tracked synergy, piece of mind and the other group buffs as my damage. The only chart I top on ACT is the mana restored. On a good boss fight I'll be at 10k, normally it's 6-9k.

Not that I mind low dps but I'd love to have some CC because my dps is not anywhere near most others.

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Old 04-28-2010, 06:09 PM   #196
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[email protected] wrote:

 On a good boss fight I'll be at 10k, normally it's 6-9k.

Not that I mind low dps but I'd love to have some CC because my dps is not anywhere near most others.

I think that has more to do with you and your gear, compared to the class..  That's less than half what most of our illy's are and coercers are doing..  I routinely pull 25k, and have done a few 40k parses on chainpulled Labs trash.

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Old 05-01-2010, 04:19 AM   #197
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Will everyone please stop talking about parses and using parses as some kind of indication that chanters are broken. What matters is this: ILLYS ARE DAMM AWFUL TO PLAY!

I cannot express enough just how soul destroying it is to play a illusionist on a raid. No other class comes close to the shear mind numbing, annoying, frustrating aspects of playing a illusionist.

There is NO REASON that any player should be made to cast 8 individual buffs if they die. You don't have to be a design guru to realize that asking players to do this will eventually lead to them hating the class.

It still makes me shiver when I think about playing my illy on a raid, the endless buffing, followed by possibly the stupidest temp buff ever invented for a MMO. The class simply isn't fun to play, its honestly blows my mind that people still play them. 

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Old 05-03-2010, 10:08 AM   #198
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TwistedFaith wrote:

There is NO REASON that any player should be made to cast 8 individual buffs if they die.

Don't die... Problem solved.  For how many years was it, that EVERYONE had to recast a ton of buffs if they died?

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Old 05-03-2010, 12:14 PM   #199
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Yeah maybe chanters should be played like back in the good old days when they would stand in the back hiding trying to stay alive at all costs because maintaining single target regen on the raid was so much fun. But hey it's fun to play a needed class.

Yes everyone had to rebuff after dying before. But they changed that as most people found it very boring. So why can't they make single target buffs persist though death too?

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Old 05-04-2010, 06:39 PM   #200
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Spryt wrote:

Yeah maybe chanters should be played like back in the good old days when they would stand in the back hiding trying to stay alive at all costs because maintaining single target regen on the raid was so much fun. But hey it's fun to play a needed class.

Yes everyone had to rebuff after dying before. But they changed that as most people found it very boring. So why can't they make single target buffs persist though death too?

That'd be awesome, I'd love it...  It's always a split second decision weither to hate buff the tank first, manaflow, coercive heal the defiler, link the dps etc..  It usually doesn't make a ton of difference, but the order could(and has) save/caused a wipe due to either agro, lack of healing etc.

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Old 05-07-2010, 06:40 PM   #201
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Carthrax wrote:

TwistedFaith wrote:

There is NO REASON that any player should be made to cast 8 individual buffs if they die.

Don't die... Problem solved.  For how many years was it, that EVERYONE had to recast a ton of buffs if they died?

A group buff is a hell of a lot less annoying to cast than having to find 8 random people in a raid. Also it's not just when a illy dies it's when someone you buffs die.

Honestly I defy anyone to play a illy for a extended period of time and come back and tell me that the amount of buffing a illy does is acceptable.

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Old 05-08-2010, 04:04 PM   #202
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Like others have said, group buffs were never as bad as single target buffs for deaths since you only need to recast them when you yourself died. I've reached the point where I never recast single target buffs now if someone else dies until we stop for a bit. If you die, you lose your buffs.

On top of that, people cannot keep still. So if you are out of range, you dont get buffed either.

Its the only way I can find to keep relatively sane in a raid. 

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Old 05-11-2010, 12:39 PM   #203
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Casting buffs is annoying, but really, the fact that our buffs are out shined by gear, our mezzes and stuns are out right unwanted, and our power management useless on most power drain fights are bigger problems.

The class is a utility class that's lacking in the utility department. That's a major issue in my mind. I got one buff now that people want. Synergism. I've had TC turned down. People tell me how annoying time warp is and to just stop using it because it's too annoying. IA is a self only buff now as no one else wants it.

I signed up as a support class, let my support do something.

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Old 05-11-2010, 02:10 PM   #204
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Simple solution to the "I have to target 8 people(which is bs anyways), is to just make a simple macro.. Put the target of the spell in the "target" part of the macro and voila.. Hit the button, you don't have to retarget or anything, just keep going.

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Old 05-11-2010, 07:03 PM   #205
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Carthrax wrote:

Simple solution to the "I have to target 8 people(which is bs anyways), is to just make a simple macro.. Put the target of the spell in the "target" part of the macro and voila.. Hit the button, you don't have to retarget or anything, just keep going.

You really are a idiot and don't have a clue do you. Try using your ubah macro in a raid and see how that works out for you.

And BTW you can have 5 synergism, IA, AI and TC, thats 8 single target buffs.

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Old 05-11-2010, 08:03 PM   #206
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Carthrax wrote:

Simple solution to the "I have to target 8 people(which is bs anyways), is to just make a simple macro.. Put the target of the spell in the "target" part of the macro and voila.. Hit the button, you don't have to retarget or anything, just keep going.

Seriously, did you mean to make yourself look that dumb?

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Old 05-12-2010, 11:17 AM   #207
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Carthrax wrote:

Simple solution to the "I have to target 8 people(which is bs anyways), is to just make a simple macro.. Put the target of the spell in the "target" part of the macro and voila.. Hit the button, you don't have to retarget or anything, just keep going.

What a great idea! I also do this on my healer. I just make 24 target macros for each spell, one for each person in raid (including myself) and voila. Hit that button, I never have to target or retarget or anything, I can just keep going!

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Old 05-14-2010, 05:38 PM   #208
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Anduri wrote:

Carthrax wrote:

Simple solution to the "I have to target 8 people(which is bs anyways), is to just make a simple macro.. Put the target of the spell in the "target" part of the macro and voila.. Hit the button, you don't have to retarget or anything, just keep going.

Seriously, did you mean to make yourself look that dumb?

Sure did!  If your too stupid to be able to put in a target for a spell, who's the dumb one? On my buff bar on my coercer I keep two link buttons, CH, Enraging demeanor, Velocity, and Siren's star.. Oh wow, 1 2 3 4 5 buttons! Each one has a specific target so I don't have to manually target someone after dieing.  Manaflow also has a specific target as well..

You can call me stupid, dumb, whatever.. Really doesn't bother me, since what I do works..

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Old 05-27-2010, 03:12 PM   #209
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Carthrax wrote:

Sure did!  If your too stupid to be able to put in a target for a spell, who's the dumb one? On my buff bar on my coercer I keep two link buttons, CH, Enraging demeanor, Velocity, and Siren's star.. Oh wow, 1 2 3 4 5 buttons! Each one has a specific target so I don't have to manually target someone after dieing.  Manaflow also has a specific target as well..

You can call me stupid, dumb, whatever.. Really doesn't bother me, since what I do works..

Two link buttons?  Does this mean you're casting your pow/resist buff and int/agi buff instead of giving 2 more people 5 crit bonus?

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Old 05-28-2010, 10:53 AM   #210
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[email protected] wrote:

Carthrax wrote:

Sure did!  If your too stupid to be able to put in a target for a spell, who's the dumb one? On my buff bar on my coercer I keep two link buttons, CH, Enraging demeanor, Velocity, and Siren's star.. Oh wow, 1 2 3 4 5 buttons! Each one has a specific target so I don't have to manually target someone after dieing.  Manaflow also has a specific target as well..

You can call me stupid, dumb, whatever.. Really doesn't bother me, since what I do works..

Two link buttons?  Does this mean you're casting your pow/resist buff and int/agi buff instead of giving 2 more people 5 crit bonus?

I give 2 people link, yup..  With the change to resists I'll probably bring down the resist buff. And honestly, could care less about give 2 more people 5 crit bonus... I already give 8 people it as it is..

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