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Old 12-17-2010, 01:59 PM   #61
Gaige

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[email protected] wrote:

That is a wicked reflect. I highly doubt that's going to occur more than in extreme cases where as assassinate has a much smaller variation than legionare's conviction will most likely have across all the zones and fights.

That said, the 15 minute recast is completely rediculous, but also the amount of dps auto attack does for scouts and fighters is also out of control when you look at the fact that mages need power for pretty much every last bit of dps they do. 

You should balance for potential.  Just because reflect can't always do that, the fact that it even can do that needs to be balanced.  We're in the same guild, geared about the same, fighting the same things in the same group and he destroyed me by 75k on that mob due to that one ability.  

I'm sorry but a fighter should never beat a T1 dps ever, never.  You don't see assassins tanking Yael do you?

As for the auto attack complaint - try raiding on a melee every once in awhile.  Deal with auto attack range, jousting, KB, positioning, etc.  You'll then realize how much of a pita it is to have auto attack.  I have a wizard too and I love that I'm able to just start nuking on pull while positioning myself against a wall to avoid KB.

Oh, resist = shortened spellcast, if I miss a CA welcome to full recast.

While both gameplay styles have advantages/disadvantages, auto attack isn't the huge deal mages try to imply it is.

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Old 12-18-2010, 05:53 AM   #62
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(posted last time under the wifes account... oops :/ )

Skip to the last part if you don't care about the details/reasoning behind my posts.

I don't disagree at all with anything you said, but I would like to point out that back in the day before paladins got a lot of dps and survivability boosts (early RoK and KoS) just because a paladin siphoning 41% hate COULD be rediculously OP hate wise, doesn't mean there weren't times also where it was equally as damaging that they relied so heavily on amends (2 dpsers fighting for the top parse spot pretty evenly for example made paladins very unfun). Just because it could be abused (amends on a chanter with wicked wand of malice and increased hate gain/hate procs for example) didn't mean that it was something that happened all over the place.

It's a different story now because they had to take into consideration that there was a potential for extreme abuse of hate siphon stacking and that averaging down siphons to 50% meant that paladins no longer had the huge end all total hate siphon that no one else could ever begin to approach and that left paladins needing a boost across the board to survivability and dps. Ironically, balancing with potential in mind put another tank into the dps race that otherwise largely would not have had a reason to be in.

--------back to subject...-----------

I do believe just as you mentioned that the balancing factor of scouts auto attack costing no power is that mages don't have to worry nearly at all about damage shields and can just spam buttons. I'm also strongly of the opinion that if mages resists = shortened recast, a missed/parried/blocked CA should be treated the same.

I have a scout, a tank, a healer, and a mage that I keep permanently, and have played nearly every class at one point or another close to cap level if not cap level and raid with my warden and troub frequently but casually, so I do realise alot more about individual perspectives especially scout perspectives than I'm often given credit for. I do realize very well that the scouts auto attack is not oh.em.effin.gee the end all [Removed for Content] sauce of uberness and never once thought that, but it's definately something that cannot be ignored because it's still a non-trivial % of average dps (which is very unfortunately largely trash mobs on ZWs) and is indeed a lot more of a deal on the ZW than many scouts often times try to down play and is indeed a very minor part of the parse on the fights that do matter such as epic names. (5% up to 35% on the extremes, 10-20% average of my troub's ZW parses are auto attack damage and thats encompassing all different zones, setups, situations, and what I'm spending my time doing. That % is not something I'd ignore, but also isn't something I'm ever going to be overly impressed by.)

Also, just because the Sol Ro incinerate can be used on an RO recording does that mean that the spell should be balanced down to accomidate that potential on every recording? You could also be fighting mistmore and spike him for part of a recording and that'd be a wicked OP VC. Or in Research halls when you're on the quest to use the one shotting clickie on the tinkerers you could use that to make a wicked OP VC also.

People will find ways to exploit flaws in the system. Those situations should definately be taken into consideration when balancing, but it should not be expected that just because one person managed to do something rediculous that every person and their dog is going to 1. have the ability to do it and 2. actually do it.

The short and sweet of it:

I don't disagree with you gaige, but don't agree 100% on everything. Just because there is the potential in specific conditions does not mean it should be expected every time an ability is used by anyone and their dog including on level 5 swamp rats that it could be abused, and just because it's not common doesn't mean that it should be ignored when balancing the overall picture. You can't balance around potential without pretty much stating that you expect it every time the ability is used, and if you ignore the extremes it leaves the possibility of such a situation like what you posted with the crusader reflect and the times in the past where it's been used to one shot nagafen.

Edit: missed a word. /fail

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Old 12-22-2010, 08:07 PM   #63
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Environmental factors play a lot more into melee dps than mage dps as well. Positioning for starters as far as scouts go, mages have unmitigated access to use their abilities on a mob, whereas things are not always put so simply for scouts. Concealment, which including all backstabs and such are probably = or > auto attack typically, is broken due to proximity at least half the time, and is usually very difficult to recover from in the event you miss an attack or have Concealment broken with an AE. With that said, I don't think it's unreasonable whatsoever to ask that Assassinate and Sniper Shot both have their reuse taken down to a much lower base. Not that I ever use Assassinate while Concealment is up, but it's just an example that I wanted to bring up based on the previous post.

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Old 12-23-2010, 01:23 AM   #64
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Sounds like a good opportunity for Velious AA's

focus assassinate - reduce base reuse timer/increase damage

focus flurry - increase flurry by 30% ish.

and for when i BG :  focus piercing - ignore targets avoidance/100% strikethrough for 20 seconds so i can kill a [Removed for Content] brawler once every 2 -3 minutes

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Old 12-28-2010, 10:40 AM   #65
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[email protected] wrote:

I don't think it's unreasonable whatsoever to ask that Assassinate and Sniper Shot both have their reuse taken down to a much lower base.

Either that, or at absolute minimum if the powers that be at SOE refuse to adjust reuse, at least increase their damage to reflect just how epic their reuse timer is comparatively to other T1 dps classes main nuke. I'd also still love to see CAs treated the same as spells are when they miss or are stopped from landing (with the exception of damage absorbs since all abilities get full reuse timers when the damage is absorbed).

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