EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

 

Go Back   EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire > EverQuest II > Class Discussion > Scout's Den > Assassin
Members List Search Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-26-2010, 12:47 AM   #1
Gaige

Loremaster
Gaige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,500
Default

Needs to have its recast lowered or its damage doubled.  It doesn't do near enough damage for the ridiculously long recast.  

Elemental Blast, for instance, does way more damage on single target burn fights and don't even get me started on wizard abilities that hit as hard or harder than assassinate while having under 5 minute recasts.

Assassins should be the king of short, single target burst fights and we no longer are because our good CAs are handcuffed by ridiculous recast rates while other classes have gotten abilities that straight up outclass it, outdamage it and can be used way more often.

Please take a look at it and get it inline with how it should be, because its currently pretty unsatisfactory.

__________________
Gaige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 01:08 AM   #2
SacDaddy420

Loremaster
SacDaddy420's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 472
Default

what is it's max recast?

__________________
SacDaddy420 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 01:58 AM   #3
Gaige

Loremaster
Gaige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,500
Default

Fifteen minutes and max hit is 458k so far.

__________________
Gaige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 02:43 AM   #4
Eritius
Server: Lucan DLere
Guild: Fate by Blood
Rank: Commander

Loremaster
Eritius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 759
Default

Two words.

Sniper Shot.

I think Assassinate might be alright in comparison. However I wouldn't mind seeing the two be useable every 5 minutes (reduced by the Blademaster AA). But with the damage lowered a bit.

Eritius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 02:51 AM   #5
thajo

General
thajo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 668
Default

Assassinate and Ice Comet were both level 50 spells.  Wizards have had means since EoF to bring Ice Comet down to 22.5s recast.  It's kind of a joke the assassin equal spell is 15min recast.  They do it to alot of classes though.  Like some level 65 spells.  Fusion is 3 min recast, plane shift is like 5....necro's get undead hoard at ~15 min recast.  

Either way wizzy and Assassin both being t1 dps'ers, its kind of a joke their same level granted spells/highest hit, the assassin one is 20 times (yes thats accurate) the recast of ice comet.

thajo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 04:08 AM   #6
Peogia

Loremaster
Peogia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 928
Default

Gaige wrote:

Needs to have its recast lowered or its damage doubled.  It doesn't do near enough damage for the ridiculously long recast.  

Elemental Blast, for instance, does way more damage on single target burn fights and don't even get me started on wizard abilities that hit as hard or harder than assassinate while having under 5 minute recasts.

Assassins should be the king of short, single target burst fights and we no longer are because our good CAs are handcuffed by ridiculous recast rates while other classes have gotten abilities that straight up outclass it, outdamage it and can be used way more often.

Please take a look at it and get it inline with how it should be, because its currently pretty unsatisfactory.

looks fair to me

__________________
The FBI is encouraging users to visit a website run by its security partner, http://www.dcwg.org , that will inform them whether they're infected and explain how to fix the problem. After July 9, infected users won't be able to connect to the Internet.
Peogia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 04:36 AM   #7
Gaige

Loremaster
Gaige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,500
Default

Right, 45 second recast vs 15 min recast - totally fair.

__________________
Gaige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 04:40 AM   #8
Rhadamanth

General
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 107
Default

I suppose in comparison it does seem a bit unfair.  But at the same time, the casting speed of Ice Comet is 8X longer, which means in terms of DPS, it isn't nearly as much as Assassinate.  EB is OP, especially since I'm a necro.  A decrease in the reuse speed for Assassinate may be good, but assassins are already the best at single target burst damage.  And another thing:  rangers...  I think they need some upgrades before assassins.

Rhadamanth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 04:56 AM   #9
Gaige

Loremaster
Gaige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,500
Default

Rhadamanthys wrote:

which means in terms of DPS, it isn't nearly as much as Assassinate.  

Um, no.  Look at a zw every once in awhile.  What a stupid statement.  Even factoring in cast time you can use IC every 50 seconds (without any reuse gear) vs 15 minutes with assassinate - just lol.

__________________
Gaige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 05:00 AM   #10
Rhadamanth

General
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 107
Default

Gaige wrote:

Rhadamanthys wrote:

which means in terms of DPS, it isn't nearly as much as Assassinate.  

Um, no.  Look at a zw every once in awhile.  What a stupid statement.  Even factoring in cast time you can use IC every 50 seconds (without any reuse gear) vs 15 minutes with assassinate - just lol.

You even said you wanted burst damage...  That's what an ability like this does.  Looking at the ZW for the dps output of an ability like this is the complete opposite of burst damage.  Look at what it does during a short fight.  You said you could do almost 500k with it.  With the 0.5 casting + 0.5 recovery, that is 500k dps.  There is your burst damage.  Compare that to even a 300k IC, 4 casting + 0.5 recovery, that is around 70k dps.  That is a heck of a lot less burst damage.  Over time, however, IC wins.  That's not the point of burst damage.

Rhadamanth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 05:51 AM   #11
Eritius
Server: Lucan DLere
Guild: Fate by Blood
Rank: Commander

Loremaster
Eritius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 759
Default

Peogia wrote:

looks fair to me

Assassinate is being upped by AGI in that pic. Where as the Ice Comet spell is not being affected by INT since an assassin's INT is much much lower (if even buffed at all).

Eritius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 07:26 AM   #12
Gaige

Loremaster
Gaige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,500
Default

Rhadamanthys wrote:

You even said you wanted burst damage... 

It isn't burst damage either, I've never had it do more than say 8k ext on any single target  burn fight but I've seen EB and IC do over 10k.

The reuse needs to be lowered, period.

__________________
Gaige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 10:05 AM   #13
Gungo

Loremaster
Gungo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Crushbone
Posts: 5,378
Default

Followup > assassinate now. If you are going to compare the 2 best abilities compare the 2 best, but honestly you can not compare 2 random abilities from 2 vastly different classes. You got to compare classes as a whole and right now assassins are very comparable to wizards. Depending on what Velious brings for sorcerers I can see assassinate being reduced to 5-3 minutes of course by then sorcerers should be getting something equally as impressive. 

BTW ice comet is resistible assassinate is not. 

Gungo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 11:48 AM   #14
Avirodar
Server: Oasis
Guild: Tyranny
Rank: Champion

Loremaster
Avirodar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,035
Default

Trying to directly compare assassinate to ice comet is rediculous.That is unless you want wizards to start complaining their auto attack damage does less DPS than it does for assassins, and needs to be brought up to par. Yeah, kind of stupid isn't it? So is comparing assassinate to ice comet or EB. If the overall DPS output capacity from assassins is lacking, there are much better ways to attempt getting the issue addressed.

__________________
Templar of Oasis
Avirodar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 12:06 PM   #15
Felonie
Server: Antonia Bayle
Guild: Malicious Intent
Rank: Recruitor

Loremaster
Felonie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 31
Default

dont do enough damage>? ive seen assassinate hit for over 500k if raids and u get the right gear and group u can get over 100% reuse speed so ur lookin at about a 5 min reuse thats not bad

Felonie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 12:56 PM   #16
Sydares

Loremaster
Sydares's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 700
Default

Sniper Shot...

Sydares is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 01:07 PM   #17
Thunndar316

Loremaster
Thunndar316's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,681
Default

Assassins asking for even more DPS?

I think you get enough handed to you on a silver platter

__________________


Sleight of Hand is USELESS
Thunndar316 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 01:19 PM   #18
Gaige

Loremaster
Gaige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,500
Default

Gungo wrote:

You got to compare classes as a whole and right now assassins are very comparable to wizards. 

BTW ice comet is resistible assassinate is not. 

Worse on AE, maybe competitive single target if the fight is 3 mins or less, not competitive at all on mobs with brawler avoidance.  

Not very comparable imo.

You can miss assassinate outright and you still have to wait for it to refresh.

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

ive seen assassinate hit for over 500k if raids and u get the right gear and group u can get over 100% reuse speed so ur lookin at about a 5 min reuse thats not bad

100% reuse is 7 1/2 mins.  You haven't seen a 500k assassinate because I have the highest WW and it was 458k.

__________________
Gaige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 01:19 PM   #19
Avirodar
Server: Oasis
Guild: Tyranny
Rank: Champion

Loremaster
Avirodar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,035
Default

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

dont do enough damage>? ive seen assassinate hit for over 500k if raids and u get the right gear and group u can get over 100% reuse speed so ur lookin at about a 5 min reuse thats not bad

I believe reuse caps out at half of the base recast value of any ability. So 7.5 minutes.There are varied advantages and disadvantages between the top end DPS class types. Assassins are not a class left empty handed.

__________________
Templar of Oasis
Avirodar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 01:22 PM   #20
Gaige

Loremaster
Gaige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,500
Default

[email protected]asis wrote:

 Assassins are not a class left empty handed.

Which I never implied.  I want the recast issue with assassinate addressed so it can be used more often so it will actually be worthwhile DPS.  There is no reason at all, none, for it to have such a ridiculously long recast.  It should be 4 minutes so 100% reuse makes it 2 mins, that way its up every other FFU chain and it fits in line a lot better with our other stealth CAs.

__________________
Gaige is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 01:32 PM   #21
Slowin

Loremaster
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 327
Default

Bah gaige beat me to all the replies anyway.. this post just got redundant ;-/

Gungo wrote:

BTW ice comet is resistible assassinate is not. 

Assassinate can't miss? In which case you get the full recast instead of waiting 5 seconds to cast it again.

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

dont do enough damage>? ive seen assassinate hit for over 500k if raids and u get the right gear and group u can get over 100% reuse speed so ur lookin at about a 5 min reuse thats not bad

You don't understand game mechanics.  Recast on assassinate can never get better than 7.5 minutes. 

I actually have to agree with gaige that the recast on assassinate (or sniper shot.. or pretty much any ability with 10+ minute recasts these days.. healer emergency heals anyone?) could be cut down pretty significantly.  The difference in dps will be far from overpowering.

Slowin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 03:36 PM   #22
thajo

General
thajo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 668
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Trying to directly compare assassinate to ice comet is rediculous.

Why?  Were both t1 dps classes and were both given that spell first at level 50.  Only my level 50 spell shows as the top damage source of my parse on every fight and Gaiges I have to scroll waaay down on every single one of his ZW's to find assassinates.  They are the only comparable spells of the two classes.  If that spell isn't comparable then I guess the classes are left in polar ends without much common ground. /shrug

I don't hold much determination or opinion towards this but, I can feel for a dps class having a 15m base recast spell cause I still think undead hoard is a load of crap too, its pretty much my view on all the nice dps spells some classes got that have absurb recasts.

thajo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 03:39 PM   #23
Banditman

Loremaster
Banditman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,459
Default

And where does your auto attack sit at compared to his?

__________________
Banditman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 03:44 PM   #24
thajo

General
thajo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 668
Default

I don't take well to redundant questions you ask just because you want me to type the answer you expect, lets not be stupid.  Assassinate could use a reduction in cast time.  It doesn't need to be 45s like ice comet, but the world (game) wouldn't explode if assassins got the recast lowered to 10 min, thus being able to obtain a max reuse of 5 min, for example.

thajo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 03:52 PM   #25
Syndarin
Server: Unrest
Guild: Equilibrium
Rank: Member

Loremaster
Syndarin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 104
Default

It needs to be reduced to 5 minute base recast at least.

__________________
Syndarin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 03:53 PM   #26
Gungo

Loremaster
Gungo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Crushbone
Posts: 5,378
Default

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Trying to directly compare assassinate to ice comet is rediculous.

Why?  Were both t1 dps classes and were both given that spell first at level 50.  Only my level 50 spell shows as the top damage source of my parse on every fight and Gaiges I have to scroll waaay down on every single one of his ZW's to find assassinates.  They are the only comparable spells of the two classes.  If that spell isn't comparable then I guess the classes are left in polar ends without much common ground. /shrug

I don't hold much determination or opinion towards this but, I can feel for a dps class having a 15m base recast spell cause I still think undead hoard is a load of crap too, its pretty much my view on all the nice dps spells some classes got that have absurb recasts.

The only real commonality between an assassin and a wizard is they are both damage dealing classes. While ice comet is the best dps spell for a wizard it is not thier biggest damage ability. And while assassinate is a the highest damage ability for assassins it is not thier highest dps ability. Comparing 2 abilites in a vacuum from 2 vastly different classes doesnt make sense. Try comparing fatal followup to the wizards fiery blast and fatal followup seems much greater.

I dont think anyone here cares if they reduce assassinates recast to 5 min in velious, but I would expect equal treatment to all dps classes in order to maintain the overall balance. That is of course if you beleive that assassins are a balanced class that is comparable to wizards as most players do. I also dont expect any changes to ANY classes until velious in the first place. We are not even getting another update until velious.

Eitherway I would like to see all abilites with a base reuse no longer then 10 minutes (including god abilites). 5 min recast with 100% reuse should be the cap on any long recast ability. There are very few fights in eq2 that last 10+ min regardless.

Gungo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 04:00 PM   #27
Notsovilepriest
Server: Nagafen
Guild: Ill Gotten Gain
Rank: Raider

Loremaster
Notsovilepriest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,184
Default

Gungo wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Trying to directly compare assassinate to ice comet is rediculous.

Why?  Were both t1 dps classes and were both given that spell first at level 50.  Only my level 50 spell shows as the top damage source of my parse on every fight and Gaiges I have to scroll waaay down on every single one of his ZW's to find assassinates.  They are the only comparable spells of the two classes.  If that spell isn't comparable then I guess the classes are left in polar ends without much common ground. /shrug

I don't hold much determination or opinion towards this but, I can feel for a dps class having a 15m base recast spell cause I still think undead hoard is a load of crap too, its pretty much my view on all the nice dps spells some classes got that have absurb recasts.

The only real commonality between an assassin and a wizard is they are both damage dealing classes. While ice comet is the best dps spell for a wizard it is not thier biggest damage ability. And while assassinate is a the highest damage ability for assassins it is not thier highest dps ability. Comparing 2 abilites in a vacuum from 2 vastly different classes doesnt make sense. Try comparing fatal followup to the wizards fiery blast and fatal followup seems much greater.

I dont think anyone here cares if they reduce assassinates recast to 5 min in velious, but I would expect equal treatment to all dps classes in order to maintain the overall balance. That is of course if you beleive that assassins are a balanced class that is comparable to wizards as most players do. I also dont expect any changes to ANY classes until velious in the first place. We are not even getting another update until velious.

Eitherway I would like to see all abilites with a base reuse no longer then 10 minutes (including god abilites). 5 min recast with 100% reuse should be the cap on any long recast ability. There are very few fights in eq2 that last 10+ min regardless.

You can't compare a class ability like FFU to an AA ability such as Fiery blast by your own idea of what is "Commonality"

__________________
Notsovilepriest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 04:10 PM   #28
Gungo

Loremaster
Gungo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Crushbone
Posts: 5,378
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Gungo wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Trying to directly compare assassinate to ice comet is rediculous.

Why?  Were both t1 dps classes and were both given that spell first at level 50.  Only my level 50 spell shows as the top damage source of my parse on every fight and Gaiges I have to scroll waaay down on every single one of his ZW's to find assassinates.  They are the only comparable spells of the two classes.  If that spell isn't comparable then I guess the classes are left in polar ends without much common ground. /shrug

I don't hold much determination or opinion towards this but, I can feel for a dps class having a 15m base recast spell cause I still think undead hoard is a load of crap too, its pretty much my view on all the nice dps spells some classes got that have absurb recasts.

The only real commonality between an assassin and a wizard is they are both damage dealing classes. While ice comet is the best dps spell for a wizard it is not thier biggest damage ability. And while assassinate is a the highest damage ability for assassins it is not thier highest dps ability. Comparing 2 abilites in a vacuum from 2 vastly different classes doesnt make sense. Try comparing fatal followup to the wizards fiery blast and fatal followup seems much greater.

I dont think anyone here cares if they reduce assassinates recast to 5 min in velious, but I would expect equal treatment to all dps classes in order to maintain the overall balance. That is of course if you beleive that assassins are a balanced class that is comparable to wizards as most players do. I also dont expect any changes to ANY classes until velious in the first place. We are not even getting another update until velious.

Eitherway I would like to see all abilites with a base reuse no longer then 10 minutes (including god abilites). 5 min recast with 100% reuse should be the cap on any long recast ability. There are very few fights in eq2 that last 10+ min regardless.

You can't compare a class ability like FFU to an AA ability such as Fiery blast by your own idea of what is "Commonality"

That was kinda my point.

Gungo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 04:27 PM   #29
Avirodar
Server: Oasis
Guild: Tyranny
Rank: Champion

Loremaster
Avirodar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,035
Default

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Trying to directly compare assassinate to ice comet is rediculous.

Why?  Were both t1 dps classes and were both given that spell first at level 50.  Only my level 50 spell shows as the top damage source of my parse on every fight and Gaiges I have to scroll waaay down on every single one of his ZW's to find assassinates.  They are the only comparable spells of the two classes.  If that spell isn't comparable then I guess the classes are left in polar ends without much common ground. /shrug

Because if you start with one ability vs another, where does it end? Every lvl_XX CA vs lvl_XX spell? That is just silly on so many levels, especially because if you do it for one you have to do it for all, as the DPS of a class is a reflection of ALL their skills and abilities, not just one. This also includes DPS from autoattack. I hope you now understand why?The real question is, in the scheme of things, is Assassin DPS lacking? Gaige wrote that he has never implied that assassins are a class left empty handed. Asssassins are very capable of doing a lot of DPS, and like any DPS class, they do better in some situations than others. Not every encounter is custom built to make one type of DPS shine. But all DPS want to do DPS, which is understandable.We all hate abilities with stupidly high reuse timers (15 mins is high). But would assassins accept a damage reduction to Assassinate, to go with the lowered reuse time, in order to keep general DPS output totals in control?

__________________
Templar of Oasis
Avirodar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 04:58 PM   #30
Gaige

Loremaster
Gaige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,500
Default

[email protected] wrote:

Because if you start with one ability vs another, where does it end?

Sigh, it was just an EXAMPLE of WHY I think assassinate's recast should be lowered.  I don't care if we compare it to anything.

For the DAMAGE that ASSASSINATE does the RECAST is totally 100% absolutely RIDICULOUS and UNCALLED FOR.

It should be 4 minutes or 5 minutes base recast so that you can use it every other FFU chain.  Nothing about assassinate warrants its ridiculous recast.  IF they insist that it stays a ludicrous FIFTEEN MINUTES the damage should be quadrupled or something to make the wait worth it.

I simply used Ice Comet because it can hit about as hard as assassinate yet they can use it every 45 seconds.  EB hits about 10x harder than assassinate and conjurors can use it every 90 seconds (3 minute base reuse).

If our specialty is short single target burst then our "best" ahem most damaging CA (only sometimes, FFU does more all the time and its a minute reuse) should be usable for the majority of those fights.

So can anyone tell me why they feel the recast time on assassinate is warranted?  No.  Thought so.

As for other classes who are stuck with long recasts, I'm fairly sure they can make a post to get theirs changed too.  I'm an assassin, I only care about our worthless CA.

[email protected] wrote:

But would assassins accept a damage reduction to Assassinate, to go with the lowered reuse time, in order to keep general DPS output totals in control?

The damage assassinate does doesn't warrant the recast, period.  A max of 450ish thousand isn't near enough to warrant using an ability once or twice per raid zone.  Not to mention the fact that assassins aren't so overpowered as to need a reduction in dps if this CA gets fixed.  I routinely lose to conjurors on sub 1 minute fights thanks to EB and wizards, warlocks, swashes, conjurors and others are competitive encounter to encounter and don't even get me started on zonewides, our lack of AE dps or the fact that on the hardest encounters in this game (like Yael) casters are already more valuable.

__________________
Gaige is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:57 PM.

vBulletin skin by: CompleteGFX.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All threads and posts originally from the EQ2 and Station forums operated by Sony Online Entertainment. Their use is by express written permission.