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Old 10-26-2014, 01:50 AM   #61
Kiry

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Except that HoT's tick 3 times faster...
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Old 10-26-2014, 02:12 AM   #62
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I was talking about all the ticks added up within 6 seconds.
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Old 10-26-2014, 02:16 AM   #63
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Nice try.
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Old 10-26-2014, 02:22 AM   #64
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Just was casting umbral warding viii and umbral barrier for comparison and barrier the aa ability is casting consistently 90k less than group ward also in the tooltip it is 103hp less than group ward
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Old 10-26-2014, 03:32 AM   #65
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What? All the ticks in 6 seconds of a druid hot is about the same as this new ward regens over 6 seconds. And the ward gets 100% value. I get it, you want shamans to be overpowered gods, but lol at this ability.
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Old 10-26-2014, 04:07 AM   #66
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I think the larger problem with Wards working as they are and being So Large is that they will turn into Death Saves again, just as they were in CoE and before. It’s unhealthy for 1 Ward to be able to absorb a full attack that was designed to kill a tank. (I do not like named trying to outright killing tanks every 6-30 sec, but that is a separate problem)


I like Wards getting buffed and all, just think they need changed so they are not Death Saves again.
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Old 10-26-2014, 04:08 AM   #67
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LOL far from it but shamans need some kind of Hot/regen/reactive to fill the gap between group ward and group heal spam and having nothing up inbetween, and don't even say totemic cos it's just not up often enough but I guess you'd know cos you played a shaman for the last 11 months of your class being complete **** to play right? Oh no that's right you played an OP druid for most of that time and they just got made even more OP, wtg druids!

They could reduce the ward and hasten the regen on soul shackle, I'd be down with that, 6s is almost too long Tongue
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Old 10-26-2014, 04:14 AM   #68
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The new AA for druids is bad. The damage isn't great and they don't need another group heal (see above: overpowered group healing already).
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Old 10-26-2014, 04:39 AM   #69
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I'm swaping mains, you'd be an idiot not to.
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Old 10-26-2014, 05:25 AM   #70
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Exactly druids are already OP without any new AA. Shamans are so far from OP right now it's not even funny.
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Old 10-26-2014, 09:19 AM   #71
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I guess the conversation has moved on, since I last checked. Without wanting to derail the thread, let me just clarify a few of the points I was trying to make.

Not strictly true. You put all (3) pot/cb practiced items on all (6) people in the group, and it will still have a tangible effect on faster fights (not to mention those HP-bugged forever heroic fights). You'd expect approximately 8 procs per practiced item per person per minute (though in reality I have always seen slightly higher rates than that, even though the proc chance isn't modifiable). With the current practiced values, and in the above scenario, that translates into a scaling rate of an additive (about) +40pot/+40cb to the whole group per 15 seconds of combat (capping out at +1188pot/+1188cb after ~6-7.5 mins of combat).

That said, I do have balance concerns about practiced itemisation, but that is a whole other discussion.


True, though, as with other regenerating wards, the value is calculated each time it ticks/regenerates and that is calculated against current attribute values. In other words, fluctuating/increasing attribute values will be reflected.


Perhaps my subtlety was lost. I know your mystic is an alt. I was questioning the accuracy of your "consistent 600k" casts solo in the guild hall without the beta buff, and basically asking what testing conditions you used for that (based against my own observations/SS values). By using the word 'consistent', I just assume that you mean regular crits (given the low legendary+ crit chance). With the values I see on SS, to hit that consistent 600k on the initial, as you claim, you'd need to be running in excess of 1250pot/1250cb with capped mod (1250/1250+capped mod = 586k). Perhaps not a typical unbuffed solo scenario for most people.


Well balance in regard to heal output/potential is two-part.

First, you have the balance between healers, which is where the majority of the discussion in this thread resides. In the new sustained-det damage environment (and specific to dealing with such damage), there isn't a whole lot of difference in the relative importance of group-cast per-target ward amounts, per-target reactive values and per-target heal/hot amounts (that forces you to say that one method of healing the sustained damage is more important than another and, therefore, should be reduced far below the others). Sure, the order that heals are consumed will be reflected in the HPS parse in multi-healer groups, but that doesn't matter since we are talking about the relative per-target potential (between healers) in dealing with sustained damage over time effects across individuals in your group.

Secondly (and this where I think the real issue could/will lie), you have the balance of potential heal output (general) vs our HP pools vs the damage the sustained dets do. Ultimately the maximum damage values, that you can set the sustained dets to, is limited by the maximum hp pools players have (assuming basic resist checks are met). HP values are more tightly controlled with gear. However, on the heal side of things, the value of heals and wards grow at an increased rate as you push both your potency and crit multipliers up.

Generally, this wouldn't be so much of an issue if potency and crit bonus were also more tightly controlled on gear, but fully stacking practiced-proc style approaches (not just practiced) blow the inflation on these two multipliers completely out of the water, and this is a lot more pronounced when it comes to their effect on heal vs inc damage balancing. I mean, how do you go about designing encounters where you want to make the sustained damage elements important (the primary gating mechanism), when you have to contend with the raid potentially inflating their potency and crit multipliers several fold from the start of the encounter - and potentially (/probably when people have geared up) inflating both heal (reactive, hot, hot ticks) and ward values beyond max-hp amounts (the realistic limit you can set sustained damage to)? Certain effects on itemisation may need a rethink in value, or in being allowed to stack across multiple people, before we go too far down this road, because you can't really sustain content design around it.
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Old 10-26-2014, 01:44 PM   #72
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SS actually doesn't recalculate, as far as I can tell, but it's been hard to find a fight that uses the entirety of the ward for multiple ticks in a row. It seems like it uses the value it was given when it first casts, which is why you can get it so high with Cloak of Divinity and the CB dragon endline each time. It would also mean a mythicrit on it makes you a god for a full minute.

My biggest problem with the ability is honestly the AFKness of it. I'd hate it a lot less if the value got reduced by 20-25%, the duration reduced to 15 seconds, and the cooldown starting on cast (increasing the uptime from 80 to 97-100%, hence the value reduction). Just did a heroic zone, didn't even realize the group was taking damage on the last boss until SS wore off and we got ticked into orange.
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Old 10-26-2014, 06:38 PM   #73
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te

People reported CB and pot boyh around 1K due to heroic zone bufs and this is without increments.

WIth such potency most of my heals will be complete heals for any archetype but tanks unless they quadruple the hp on everyone.

TOV came with a huge increase in HP but if AoM pot/cb shall be 3 or 4 time larger than in early TOV some rather huge increase in HPs is necessarly.
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Old 10-27-2014, 08:01 AM   #74
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Pretty sure it works exactly how other regenerating wards work - in other words - every time the ward is forced to regenerate (i.e. only if it has been partially or completely consumed when the regeneration tick occurs), then it regenerates/recalculates against your current attributes at that point. Can't log into beta atm to verify it in a controlled environment, so I pulled up some logs for an encounter that had a sustained det that was consuming the regenerating component in its entirety (before the next tick):

- 367394 (initial), 156876, 158104, 206117, 232077, (death of shaman), 396573 (initial), 168120, 179796, 198818, 198584, 196700, 201837, 186845 (on this tick one person out of the six got a ward tick crit of 373690) ...

As a side-note, the above sample seems to imply that legendary/fabled/mythical crit chance is correctly being calculated on a seperate, per-tick, per-person basis.


I agree, in part, with this statement. I can get behind an implementation of a reduced duration with a matching cooldown, and removing the toggle (i.e. having the cooldown start when the ability is cast). However, as I said in my previous post, the ward value that this ability should set, is largely dependent on the balance of priest (potential) vs priest (potential) (particularly against sustained dets in the case of this ability), and, seperately, (universal) heal potential vs inc damage balance. I won't comment on that again, but, hopefully, design should have the numbers and a correct overview to ensure this is the case.
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Old 10-27-2014, 02:17 PM   #75
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I think reducing the duration to 15s would make it OP as far as it's healing output, also with consideration to it's potency debuff would make it completely unmanageable to maintain.

However, I would not be opposed to a reduced duration to something like 30s with the cooldown starting on cast and a small corresponding decrease to the ward to reflect this.
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:36 PM   #76
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Amen!
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Old 10-28-2014, 12:19 AM   #77
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Buff as much? Shamans have been the buff kings. Defilers and Mystics both buff dps groups more than either Druid, Cleric, or Channelers do, so there's that. The personal dps breakdown is probably something like Fury > Mystic/Inq/Warden > Templar > Defiler/Channeler, so yeah, Defilers lose there, but Mystics don't.

But no, you do in fact not AE block (reliably, anyway), and I personally think all AE blockers sans Holy Shield, Advance Warning, and Amazing Reflexes should be removed.
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Old 10-28-2014, 04:12 AM   #78
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Would still be nice to see what these buffs can do against current content for a realistic measure of the strength/weakness of this stuff
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Old 10-28-2014, 08:13 AM   #79
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No...not so much...
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Old 10-28-2014, 08:20 AM   #80
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Was just going by the patch notes.


On the topic of balance, are people seeing that given the current state of shamans other healers will no longer be wanted in raids? Because given that we still can't AE blocks, dps as well or buff as much, I doubt it. But if that's indeed the case, yeah, I guess it should be toned down. Because god forbid the raid run more than one of anything but a druid.
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Old 10-28-2014, 09:37 PM   #81
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oh my bad. forgot all about this. if only i could have a dollar for every time in my 10 years of play that i've heard "hey, we're missing our mage group defiler!" and "if only we had those defiler scout dps buffs for this encounter!", well, i'd still not have a single dollar. But maybe you're right.. although last i checked, your guild ran a Fury in the mage group.

But hey, i'm just one opinion. Other people are contributing to this thread, how many of you (by choice) run a defiler as the main DPS buffer for the mage group? Because i'd LOVE to be in the mage group. Most of my DPS is spells, so it totally works for me.
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Old 10-29-2014, 09:38 AM   #82
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With the Soul Shackle addition I would run a Defiler over a Fury in a mage group, personally.


Also, got to break out my mystic for a raid fight tonight. 1.1-1.2m hps was pretty neat. Slightly more than what our warden was capable of putting out when he was solo healing, but that's counting +~200k from prophetic ward on mine. Soul Shackle still topped my parse by a mile. When it dropped our group had about a 30% chance of dying depending on whether or not the warden was still rotating heals when the group's hp bars weren't moving.
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Old 10-29-2014, 02:10 PM   #83
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Also, Fury buffs have sucked for awhile. Mage groups use Fury because a, tshell is boss in current expansion, and b, high personal dps.
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Old 10-29-2014, 06:34 PM   #84
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How high does the damage procs from a fury run, fae fire and the cure proc?
also does SS put a ward on each group member or is it as a whole like the group ward?
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Old 10-29-2014, 09:53 PM   #85
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Heroic/Raid zones lost the cb/pot part of their buffs a week ago...

Was regenning upwards of 400k for me in raid.
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Old 10-30-2014, 08:59 AM   #86
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It's not shared and it regenerates, solo in potent and no temp buf it does like 200K each 6 seconds ... so basically it's a 200K fully efficient HPS
(assuming group damage). Ward value is recomputed each 6 second (according to your current pot/cb) and it can crit ...
As example my dog can receive a fabled crit, daeron a mythical and me a normal crit.

It seems to me that we are back to pre TOV era, when heals and ward were as big as HP pools.

But it's too early to conclude, heroic and raid zone do currently have zone buf that won't be there on live.
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Old 10-30-2014, 08:20 PM   #87
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The values I saw in raids tonight were:

Sustained det: approx 800k to 1.3m every 4s
Soul Shackle: approx 200k to 450k every 6s (450k-750k initial) - values increasing against practiced counters

Given that, it probably would be best if the uptime on Soul Shackle could be maintained almost full time (reuse starting when cast, reuse matching duration). Oh, templars were kind of ridiculous on that encounter though.
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Old 10-30-2014, 09:50 PM   #88
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Wondering how HP pools scale, at 99 i think warden is around 800K self buffed so 1,3m seems quite far ...
Is that with experimental MC?
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Old 10-31-2014, 06:40 AM   #89
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I was at ~1.2m raid-buffed / out of combat with just my regular live gear (not wearing any %HP gear). The det on this particular encounter does get buffed up as a matter of course during the fight (due to other elements that need to be tackled, hence the spread I listed).
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Old 11-05-2014, 10:32 PM   #90
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is Soul Shackle supposed to not work with 'Ritual' cast to push it, or was that changed?
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