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Old 12-22-2011, 03:42 AM   #1
Sfeerikal

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Hi everyone,

I am having a lot of trouble holding agro in essentially everything from SF zones upwards. On pull I'll have the mob but shortly after I see the agro meter builds up and soon the mob goes off beating group members. It's almost impossible to get it back other than the few snaps we have but even then I cant maintain the agro.

I spam the taunts constantly but they seem to do nothing at all! I read that we are meant to keep agro with dps somewhere, but that seems impossible, we would have to out dps every other class to hold agro.

Setup:

90 Zerk

300AA spent in the most recommended zerker skills

Everything master 1

All Tofsx2 jewellery/weapons except a peice or 2

All Rygor gear except the rime chest peice.

Group:

warden, conj, assassin and sometimes swash, wizard.

I think I should be plenty well geared enough to do the rime zones and even kael but this agro problem is really putting me off wanting to tank as its just no fun for anyone. Im so puzzled as to what I'm doin wrong, can anyone give some strat to holding mobs at high levels?

Also bonus question, do zerkers have the lowest vita in the game for tanks? I see many casters and healers with similar gear but plenty more vita.

Thanks for any info you can share

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Old 12-22-2011, 05:48 AM   #2
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Hey man i feel your pain.  I got very fustrated trying to hold aggro back when TSO was the lastest xpac.  Ive pretty much given up.

Its more likely not how your playing your class but your DPS'ers thinking all tanks reguardless of class, quality of gear, level of CA's, and amount of AA's can hold the mob when their going all out from the start.

I was in a group once with a wizzy firing off ice comets on pull.  Even using rescue and insolence didnt getting me the mob back and of course he was blaming me for not being able to hold the mob.

DPS'ers don't like to adjust to thier tank, most just want to go all out all the time and blame the tank when they pull the mob.

A dirge is a HUGE help, but ultimatly it comes down to the fact that aggro control is the responsiblity of the tank AND THE DPS.

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Old 12-22-2011, 11:30 AM   #3
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Honestly, a lot of what you're facing is because of the class.  Ever other tank has the tools to hold agro much better than a zerker.

If those you play with are friends/guildies (considering to named specific class I'm guessing this is the case), just ask them, specifically the conji and wizard, to hold off a bit, the assassin/swashy should have his tranfer on you so they should not be a problem.  If that doesn't work, try changing your spec around for more hate gain (not sure how much you have vs what you can get).  The last thing you could do is go out and get all teh hate gain adorns you can and find a dirge to run with you.  Dirges give +30 hate gain and + to agression (increases any hate amount).  Both of those things should give you what you need.

If all else fail, you might have to betray...  It's never the first choice when you find a class you really enjoy but I've seen some well gear and well played zerkers have a lot of throuble holding agro off DPSers who never pull agro.  Guardians have some better tools and and equally played zerker and guardian could change the group dynamic enough for you to hold agro.

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Old 12-23-2011, 08:08 PM   #4
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alot of problem is also the current game dynamics when you hit endgame.  By the time you figure people are doing 50-100K dps on their own, even the low end of that, 5-10K taunts don't mean anything, and even a snap aggro is only going to work until they smack the mob again.  End game is borked on number inflation, and short of pumping ca's and the like up massively on steroids, or reducing DPS and mob HP, etc to more reasonable levels inline with the rest of the game, as a class that relies so much on DPS for threat, with taunts to fluff it up, we're screwed as long as we aren't T1 DPS.

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Old 12-23-2011, 11:20 PM   #5
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On this thread you say the class is screwed as long as we arent't T1 DPS, then...

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

alot of problem is also the current game dynamics when you hit endgame.  By the time you figure people are doing 50-100K dps on their own, even the low end of that, 5-10K taunts don't mean anything, and even a snap aggro is only going to work until they smack the mob again.  End game is borked on number inflation, and short of pumping ca's and the like up massively on steroids, or reducing DPS and mob HP, etc to more reasonable levels inline with the rest of the game, as a class that relies so much on DPS for threat, with taunts to fluff it up, we're screwed as long as we aren't T1 DPS.

On this one no one can tank at end game because prior to end game thier not taught how to properly play thier class.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=509583

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

wait until you get closer to 80-85 and have AAs and your Epic Repercussions done to worry about tanking for a group.

Month old topic...but I can't help it. This is why noone can tank at end game. Your supposed to learn how to play your class going up through the levels, tanking, healing, dps, etc. The fact that noone can play their class worth a crap when they hit end game is a result in part, to this very idea, wait until your at endgame before you bother with a group. That and the fact that you can solo to endgame in a week or less with no bonuses.

Is it the class is screwed or the game doesnt teach players thier class correctly?

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Old 12-24-2011, 03:41 AM   #6
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class isn't screwed, never has been, difficult to play effectively? yes, but its dynamics in the game that are borked.

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Old 12-27-2011, 10:27 AM   #7
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  Yes, its hard to tank effectively as a zerker these days. More than likely its just the mechanics not you. That being said though you need to adjust a little to help make up for that if you intend to keep tanking.

  Are you DW'ing or using a shield? If you can DW on some mobs go for it as the extra DPS will help you to maintain aggro. If you need to use a shield on some fights, do what I do. I keep a macro setup for DW and one for sword+board and swap during combat to remain effective. Do you tank in offensive stance or defensive? Most zones I run offensive unless my healer is having an off day. Also you should spec for hate gain in the strength line and get hate gain adorns if you need the extra threat. Make sure you time your taunts and that you're not interrupting you auto attacks if your spamming.

   The only other advice is to ask your groupmates to give you 2 or 3 seconds after the pull to build up your hate and talk to them about adjusting their cast order to ramp up their DPS instead of starting out with heavy hitters. The only other thing that will help is a coercer or a dirge. Both are bomb for hate xfer. Also, what is your assassin putting out DPS wise? If he's slacking your xfer will suffer.

  With you gear you should be fine all the way up through ToRZ, and you need to go there and get your BP though you might need an extra set of heals. It is rough tanking as a zerker but like before you and your group may have to adjust to the mechanics. I've done it and so have others.

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Old 01-02-2012, 12:03 PM   #8
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I still believe that the threat that fighter taunts have are far by far to weak to compete with the dps that is generated from the dps classes. This has always been the case for my zerker.

I am sure there are some zerkers out there that do not have the issues I have with holding aggro because their dps is enough to get the job done.

Taunts should be good enough that the casual fighter in question has a chance of keeping aggro without having a stacked group of hate buffing classes. Fighters always needing hate transfers just to hold aggro in heroic settings or lesser ventures shouldn't be mandatory.

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Old 01-05-2012, 06:25 PM   #9
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I definately agree with you there Aull, our taunts do not produce enough threat. I tanked 3 instances in a row this weekend with a conjy and a necro that were doubling and sometimes tripling my dps and I'm fairly certain that if it wasn't for the coercer in the group I would have had some issues.

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Old 01-06-2012, 11:31 AM   #10
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I hear ya. I believe that all fighters should be able to hold aggro in most non raid settings without the need of hate support. It sucks to need another class just to have a chance to hold aggro and when those classes are not available waiting should not be an option just to run an instance zone.

Taunting power should be increased and like auto attack should have the chance to double or triple taunt. I can fire off rescue and have the aggro for about one second and it is back on one of my group memebers. That is unsatisfactory.

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Old 01-09-2012, 04:01 AM   #11
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I would like to start off by sayin Aull is 100% correct about taunts. They are currently all but worthless imo.

I currently don't have a serk, but i have had one before. My main has been a sk since launch, and i currently have a bruiser alt. I have the same issues on my sk the OP is having on his serk. My sk is in a mix of drunder crafted, drunder x2 armor, tofsx2 weapon/jewelry. He sits at 189 cm, 240 cc, 250 ma, 320 aas, master spells, and has his ER done....and half the time i couldn't hold aggro if it had a handle on it. For those unfamiliar with sks, when i get hit...proc a taunt, when i hit...% chance to proc taunt, when i block...% chance to proc taunt, ER gives me chance for all my lifetaps to proc taunt by 300% of the tap. And with reaver aa, every hostile spell is a tap.

Going back to what Aull said, taunts need fixed. In the current state of things you have to do more dps to hold aggro, and by definition dps isnt really the tanks job. This can be fixed in a number of ways. Probably the easiest would be the idea above of letting ma make taunts hit multiple times. With the hate mods and extra taunt procs i have on my sk, i should never lose aggro.

For taunts to be effective they cannot be left at the 1 to 1 ratio with damage that they currently are. A taunt should always bring more hate than damage.

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Old 01-09-2012, 05:04 AM   #12
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I have the same prob's with my SK and Zerker, both 90/300+, SK has some EM x4 gear (shield, wpn, couple peices of armor) and a HM wrist item. roughly 180 CM 200 Crit and 250 MA. Still worthless cause i cannot manage to pull 50k+ dps.. much less 40K. Zerker i dont play anymore and it's on a F2P account so it's even more useless. I stopped playing all 3 plate tanks ( have a 90/300 Guard on F2P account as well) just due to the fact that it wasn't worth the headache to try and keep aggro against dps doing 100K+. My new main is a Brigand, mix of HM and EM gear ( 275 crit, 276 cm, 435 MA) and now i'm putting most tanks ( even as well geared as me ) through aggro hell. Half the times i can just put my auto-attack on and go afk and still do 45k dps. So ya, tanks need more effective taunts.. or more effective dps output to keep up with the dps classes out there.

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Old 01-09-2012, 05:24 AM   #13
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I've mostly went to a dirge. And even though he won't put up the dps your brig will, he still pulls aggro at times if i'm not payin attention. Something needs done. I would prefer an increase to taunts because I think if they up our dps we'll be close to the dps classes. Then they will be mad, and imo rightfully so, then they want better dps and we're back in the same boat.

The way i see it, taunts need to work off your ma, be at a 3 to 1 ratio with damage, or something along those lines. I can get a crit taunt and the precentage on the hate bar doesnt even change.

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Old 01-09-2012, 04:29 PM   #14
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Chaim Witz wrote:

I've mostly went to a dirge. And even though he won't put up the dps your brig will, he still pulls aggro at times if i'm not payin attention. Something needs done. I would prefer an increase to taunts because I think if they up our dps we'll be close to the dps classes. Then they will be mad, and imo rightfully so, then they want better dps and we're back in the same boat.

The way i see it, taunts need to work off your ma, be at a 3 to 1 ratio with damage, or something along those lines. I can get a crit taunt and the precentage on the hate bar doesnt even change.

This is a perfect example. Yeah a dirge might not have the dps of a brig, sin, or swash but their songs combined with their dps will certainly pull aggro even with your hate buff on the tank.

My problem is when I watch the hate meter. I can be at 100 on the list and in less than a split second I am at 60. There is no 100/35, 100/39, 100/45, 100/59, 100/70 "ok guys someone is climbing the hate meter fast so watch yourself". Its just 100/30 then 60/100. There is no warning time to do that. Using a taunt might pull me up to 65 but it should do far better than that.

Another idea would be if fighter taunts could double or triple taunt then detaunts should double or triple detaunt for those classes who have those abilities.

I do not believe in easy mode aggro but again fighters have no chance of hope in taunts to build enough hate. Also fighters should not need to rely on offensive damage as the sole  means to hold aggro. When a fighter is in defensive stance they should have even more hate generation in the threat department to make up for the loss in offensive damage.

Lots of good info here.

Thanks for your time.

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Old 01-17-2012, 08:03 PM   #15
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   I had the same issue with a raid geared dirge this weekend. Even with his hate transfer he was pulling aggro. I think ya'll are spot on that taunts should be on a 3 to 1 ratio with damage. I never understood why its always been that way. Why would someone waste time casting a 3k taunt when they could use the same time to cast a 5k combat art? They'll get more threat out of the damage...

   It's definately rough for tanking right now with the stat inflation from DoV. My brigand pulls aggro with his auto attack. I don't want to do tons of DPS on my zerker, I want to hold aggro and do my job which is tanking. Don't get me wrong I enjoy smacking mobs as much as the next zerker but I get frustrated if I'm tanking an instance and I'm in the top 2 on the parse as the tank. I want enough DPS to kill mobs when I'm solo (which I've already got) and the TOOLS to tank effectively. They did ok when they gave fighters a few more taunts and snaps in our shadows tree but with the way threat currently works it doesn't help for long.

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Old 01-18-2012, 04:50 PM   #16
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Good post Zeuhl. If fighters had better threat generation from taunts there wouldn't be such a strong need for hate support classes in the group every time. Running with a less than perfect group would be managable. Even waiting to form a group would be less down time as well.

 I hate waiting for that dirge or coercer or swash just to have the bare minimum chance of being able to hold aggro. Even with those classes it is still tough. Currently without any of them it is impossible to do any good. 

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Old 01-19-2012, 03:33 AM   #17
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Wow there has been some great comments here and i'm glad to see i am not the only one encountering so many issues with my tank.

Thanks for the tips and hopefully they can help our taunts soon! 

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Old 01-19-2012, 02:45 PM   #18
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Over the years I have read numerous great ideas for zerkers and other fighters as well. Not just ideas about bettering zerker or other fighter threat/hate but ideas that touch the very core of each fighter.

What smells is that many of the ideas are not given a chance. This is why it is mindboggling to me that fighter threat/hate issues have not been addressed. Fighter threat issues have been messed up for many years.

If dps classes had dps issues like fighters have threat issues I am sure those dps issues would be given attention far quicker than what I have witnessed with fighter threat.

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Old 01-22-2012, 06:22 PM   #19
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Aull wrote:

Over the years I have read numerous great ideas for zerkers and other fighters as well. Not just ideas about bettering zerker or other fighter threat/hate but ideas that touch the very core of each fighter.

What smells is that many of the ideas are not given a chance. This is why it is mindboggling to me that fighter threat/hate issues have not been addressed. Fighter threat issues have been messed up for many years.

If dps classes had dps issues like fighters have threat issues I am sure those dps issues would be given attention far quicker than what I have witnessed with fighter threat.

This.

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Old 01-24-2012, 07:24 AM   #20
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Well, I've been trying to tweek my sk ( i know its a serk forum but i'm in the same boat as you guys).

As of right now he is 190cm, 250+cc, 300ma, 37% hate mod, master spells, 320 aa (choosing anything that increases hate and lifetaps to work with ER buff). Since it's been the dom for labs/pools/spire i've tested there the last couple days. And guess what, i still dont keep aggro. it has imporved dont get me wrong. but we are talking ascent, i am technically geared way past it. and even with group members who arent geared past it, aggro is a pain.

it seems to me a simple hotfix....either A) taunts are worth 3 to 1 against damage, or B) taunts work off ma since damage does.

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Old 01-24-2012, 06:39 PM   #21
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  I really like the idea of taunts working with MA. It seems like an easier fix than adjusting to a ratio with damage. Really the only problems I'm seeing with berserkers and crusaders (I have a 90 SK as well) for aggro is taunts are so weak. Zerks need a little love on ways to handle spike damage and our combat arts could use a small boost but other than that I think we're ok.

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Old 01-24-2012, 07:50 PM   #22
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With the damage that dps classes are able to dish out in such bursts I think that taunts will need the adjustment to damage or potency raised to a far higher value and the ability to work off/from MA. Combine them together and I really feel that fighters would have a far better chance with aggro issues.

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Old 01-26-2012, 01:34 AM   #23
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I had another thought too, detaunts like a scouts evade should work off ma too

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Old 01-26-2012, 05:09 PM   #24
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Yes scout detaunts should work from ma as well.

For players expecting a fighter to hold aggro in todays game is like a full grown man handing a 150 pound barbell to a five year old child and expecting the child to not collapse. The issue is that many players for years have been lead to believe that a tank should be holding aggro with no responsiblity on the part of the damage dealers.

I understand that dps class players want to do the greatest dps and that is totally expected. I also understand that there are many players who play dps classes that can't really dps or can't play the dps class to its potential. However the potential is still there. Fighters too should be able to have potential to hold aggro with the combo of damage and threat.

I don't see fighter dps going up or dps being the main threat fighters need to hold aggro. Yes if a fighter could dps higher then it would help but again I just don't see it happening. Since dps isn't going up for fighters then fighter taunts as class abilities and through equipment should make up for the huge dps gap between fighters and t1 damage. 

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Old 01-27-2012, 07:02 PM   #25
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  I think fighter DPS is about where it should be. Threat and tanking should work the same for us as DPS does for DPS classes. You can tell if someone playing a DPS class sucks because the tank or healers will parse higher than them. You should be able to tell if a tank sucks based on how well he can pull, position mobs, and hold aggro. Unfortunately without a "proper" group setup with some hate transfer he's going to fail on those counts because he won't be able to hold his own against proper DPS classes.

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Old 01-29-2012, 07:26 PM   #26
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Good post Zeuhl. I agree 100%. Dps classes can be judged by how good they dps. Buffer classes make dps classes do even more but even buffer classes that help fighters with threat/hate can't buff the fighters enough in comparison to how well they buff the dps.

Now even if buffs for dps classes are not present the dps classes can still have a level of acceptable damage. This isn't the case for fighters. 

All I want for my fighters is a greater chance at holding and getting lost aggro back without having the need for all the transfers and hate mods every time I wish to run an instance.

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Old 02-13-2012, 09:33 PM   #27
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THis is a great post.  My 90/320 zerker struggles with aggro as well.  I like the idea of increasing the taunts to a 3 to 1 but, It seems to me that might make things a lttle to easy??  I could be wrong.  Adjusting taunts to work off of MA seems like a better option that would make tanks try harder for the gear and adornments to increase their MA stats?

As was previously stated earlier in the post, when your aggro meter goes from 100% down to 60% in a split second, it takes pretty much EVERY emergency, taunt, positional, snap, and popping adrenaline (if I already havent done so) to get it back.  Then I am out of any type of aggro control for a longer period than I am comfortable with.  I don't mind losing aggro for a short time as long as I can get it back.  If my threat meter drops to 90%-95%, I am not too concerned as I know I can get it back fairly quick and still have more taunts left after I get it back.  Losing a small amount of aggro just means that the group is working hard to DPS the mob down and I expect that small amount of aggro loss.

On the other hand, I have had group members just NUKE AWAY on pull over and over again.  I hate to say it but it is usually people that raid that do this.  Being a raider myself I am not trying to put down raiders, its just that we forget sometimes that groups are almost never optimally set up like a raid is and so the hate xfer or dehates are not available to those that need it. 

There have been times where I have just got tired of trying to "rescue" aggro back from the same person in the group every fight that I will just "let them tank it" so to speak.  I know this does not make a good reputation for me in some cases but tanking can be a frustrating hair pulling task.  Especially on the bigger strat, large mob fights.  I have actually suffered bouts of anxiety when pulling certain mobs 

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Old 05-06-2012, 12:57 PM   #28
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All those zerkers that are having aggro issues, do you use a shield? Mostly all the time? What is your Multi-Attack at? Is it better than 300?  Zerkers aggro come from group makeup (coercer, dirge, swash etc)> your dps (dual wield) > max level spells (combat arts) > hate adorns.  If you dont have any of this, you may want to rethink what you are doing or whos in your group.  I raid HM with my zerker and dont have any aggro issues, i often times have too much hate and have to slow my dps. I dont use any ire adorns and i sit at 400 ma without buffs and all my combat arts are masters.

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Old 05-07-2012, 02:14 PM   #29
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While it's nice to have raid gear, a vast majority of zerkers don't.

For all zerkers, whether they have raid gear or not, there is only one way to hold agro...dps.  Like Thorn said, get your MA and Crit Bonus as high as possible.  There is a 2 hander that drops in one of the Skyshrine group zones called the Invader's Great Sword of Exploration.  It has 49% AE Autoattack on it that can be reforged to 174% MA.  Get this sword.

Now, it does you no good as a tank that if you get agro, you die 0.000000005 seconds later.  As a zerker, you have to be able to keep agro in D stance with a shield.  In this case, you need to spec to maximize your taunts.  Aggressive Defense procs hate and can be an incredibly effective way to keep agro.  Make sure you have points in Executioner's Anger on your warrior tree.  Also, potency affects your taunts, so keep your potency up.  Also, make sure your single target taunt is in your CA rotation.  Not only is it free hate, but it's an interrupt as well.

Don't forget the standard practices:

 - Install ACT to track your progress.  ACT records DPS and hate.

 - Time your combat arts so they don't delay your autoattacks.

 - Get a good bow (the bow from the Skyshrine access quest for example) and use good arrows (this is actually a great way to snap agro back from an over enthusiastic caster).

 - Spend some time at the training dummies.  The easiest way to check any new set ups is to try it out on a training dummy.

 - The bottom of your defensive Prestige tree gives crit bonus for potency.  This is a win / win.

 - Adorn your gear (this is huge).

 - Practice, practice, practice.

Don't be discouraged!  There are zerkers out there that don't have the same agro problems and it's not hard to become one of them.

EQ2 is a game of percentages and even the smallest bump in your stats can have a profound impact in your effectiveness.  In fact, this is a major point.  You may only be a couple of percentage points away from holding agro and not know it.

Hope this helps,

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Old 05-10-2012, 08:54 PM   #30
LygerT

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taunts have been worthless for at least the past 4 years now, nothing new there.

problem is i don't see them getting rid of the utility class buffs that buff tanks to manage hate. it would be nice if as a tank you were the one actually controlling the fight as compared to relying on other people to do your job for you.

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