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Old 08-11-2008, 03:53 PM   #1
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Coverage can be called an almost worthless lvl 80 CA/Buff.The fact that after you use the correct pre-CA, it lights up and you hit it and all you get is a message that says your too close, so you back up, ohhh wait Auto Attack just went off, so now it tells me I can only use it after certain CA.  so how much DPS did I lose from backing up, clicking this piece of junk twice, and running back in to do my "Melee" dps, because without us pretending to be assassins for a few seconds while we wait for our Ranged CAs to come back up, we are non-existent on the parse.How about making it grey/red out like other CAs that cannot be used because your too close, or BETTER YET, Take the proximity off the stupid thing.  For rangers to do max DPS we have to be Rangers 1/2 of the time and Assassins the other 1/2.  So why only grant us that bonus 1/2 the time.  So what you are telling us is we only deserve 1/2 of a special ability.  When put in a perfect group standing in the sweetspot, I can hit 5k in a raid fight.  GREAT.  but guess what.  I never use the Coverage, because I would have to back up.  Now if I stay back, I am worthless on the parse.Quit making us be part-time assassins!!!!  We use BOWS remember.You already make Assassins DPS gods, that dont have to pay for their DPS.  Now to try to run second I have to pay for my arrows, because the CA made arrows are, well how do I say it nicely.  Ohhh wait I can't.  leave it at that, and I have to play part-time assassin.  That is just not right.  I say cut the reuse on our Ranged CA's in 1/2 and lets see if we can come close to catching the assassins.  I bet that wouldnt even make us beat them.How about it DEVS, try it in test, or DEV.  Cut our ranged CA's reuse timers in 1/2, and remove the proximity restriction on coverage, and see what a ranger can do then.  Isnt the whole point of DEV and Test to try new things?  I am a programmer, and I try stuff all the time.  Give it a shot, see what it actually does.  If we blow by the assassins, then try tweaking from there.  But for god sakes give us a little something.  even if it were just the end of line STR ability and it removed the only CAs over 2 min recast.It is insane to think if I betray my ranger to an assassin I can double my parses (or close too it).  How fair is that?  So when my raid leaders just wants more out of me, I guess I will just betray, and go back to Adept III CA's and I will still parse higher than my ranger with many masters.  Woot.  ugggg.I know these are long standing issues, but with the fix/nerf of conservation, why not try and see if we can get the DEVS to take a look and try some things out.  quit making a 3% ranged crit addition to a bracelet and say there ya go all better, now you can DPS....right?.....  How about take a little time and play with reuse timmers, etc.  reuse timmers are static, more or less, so dont mess with damage.  that is a calculation that I imagine can eaily be screwed up.  So just lower the timers and see if you can get us closer to our easily betrayable counterpart.SOE made these multiple classes for a reason.  Lets do a little something to make rangers just a bit closer to their evil counterparts, shall we.OK, I am done venting now SMILEY
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Old 08-11-2008, 05:00 PM   #2
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For the hell of it, PM every single Dev that you know this message except for Aerlick.
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Old 08-11-2008, 06:31 PM   #3
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... because when you put "DEVS" into a subject, you can be sure that they aren't going to read it. Not saying I disagree at all. We just have to figure out how to get SoE to see the point.
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Old 08-11-2008, 06:38 PM   #4
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Yep, Coverage is pretty useless unless you are duoing with a summoner or enchanter and pulling a mob that is not facing you.
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Old 08-11-2008, 06:41 PM   #5
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You would think that they would listen to, ohhh I don't know, THE PEOPLE THAT PLAY THE CLASSES!!!Just a thought.HEY SOE READ THIS POST AND TRY SOMETHING FOR A CHANGE!!!!!!!!!There, maybe that will work better. HAHAHAHAHAThere, maybe that will work better. HAHAHAHAHA
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Old 08-11-2008, 06:51 PM   #6
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Um didn't you just post a few minutes ago in these forums that you hadn't even macro'd your melee ca's to ranged autoattack and you have about 5 pieces of suboptimal gear. 

Yes Coverage is way to hard to use right.  But it works when you have to joust out on an AE anyway.  And there are lots of classes that have submoptimal 80 spells. 

You could also double your parse with a few modifications to playstyle and a couple of easy gear upgrades.  Well you never said where your parse was or what kind of group you have for buffs or what the parse of the assassin your chasing is or what gear he/she has or what buffs they have, so I can't say double for sure but I think you get my point.

Also I'm Tired of hearing how rangers are the only class to pay for Damage.  Everyone pays to some degree.  Everyone uses potions,  we are the only folks that get them half price, or in the case of cure potions for 1/10th price.  4 classes use poisons, we get them for half price.  Every class uses arrows or thrown weapons. We just use them more and our epic does reduce the amount we use.  Having actually compared it with the Assassin's and Rogues in my Raid I spend roughly the same as them all things considered. 

 Yes SOE made mutiple classes for a reason.  It aslo means that similar classes might have very unique playstyles and the Ranger is one of those classes that doesn't play like any other. 

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Old 08-11-2008, 07:08 PM   #7
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Boramyr wrote:
Also I'm Tired of hearing how rangers are the only class to pay for Damage. Everyone pays to some degree. Everyone uses potions, we are the only folks that get them half price, or in the case of cure potions for 1/10th price. 4 classes use poisons, we get them for half price. Every class uses arrows or thrown weapons. We just use them more and our epic does reduce the amount we use. Having actually compared it with the Assassin's and Rogues in my Raid I spend roughly the same as them all things considered.
Did you even read what you wrote?"Every class uses arrows or thrown weapons" -- I know of no tank, mage, summoner, druid, or healer that uses these. Tanks do sometimes lob an arrow every 10-15 minutes to pull a difficult to reach mob. Not sure how that equates with burning through 1200 arrows in a single raid session."Every class uses potions" -- other than cure potions in raids, some temporary adornments, and fighter/scouts coating their weapons with these, they are primarily the purview of assassins and rangers. No other classes have AA lines which so dramatically improve the effectiveness and functionality of these. Rangers must use these items to equal the DPS of over classes. Classes like mages, who have NO CONSUMABLE MATERIAL for any of their DPS. Unless you count food LOL.Coverage is clearly a half-baked spell that penalizes you for being close to mobs, meanwhile our epic weapon Eagle's Talon penalizes you for not being close to mobs. Over and over I see advice from seasoned rangers that running in and out of range will lower your DPS and is a bad strategy. So which is it? Are the players wrong or is Coverage designed wrong?
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Old 08-11-2008, 07:50 PM   #8
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I can settle the cost issue right away. I played a ranger for over 3 years before I betrayed, and my raid costs are the same as an assassin as it was as a ranger. Some of you old timers may remember me. Rangers are still borked big time, but I wouldn't focus on the cost of arrows. The savings I got from potions and poisons more than paid for the arrows as a raiding ranger. I just didn't know it at the time. Qualifier --> I only use mastercrafted potions/poisons, so someone who uses the cheap stuff may have a different experience.
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Old 08-11-2008, 07:59 PM   #9
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OK, wasnt really complaining about the cost of arrows.  Just making a point that without arrows the bow doesnt work, but assassins 1-handers do.If Arrow expense was a huge deal I would either make a wood worker or betray.  Just stating a point on that one, that's all SMILEY
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:20 AM   #10
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Alas my friends as long as we have our current Dev you will be farting in the wind with any suggestions to improve our class. Are best hope is of him retiring or getting a better job. Please do not ask him to fix anything else, that never turns out well for us. We are the good counter part to the Assassin, so common sense seems to dictate that we should be on a par dps wise with Assassins. You know Ying Yang. But he sees us as Ying, Yuck.Yet for some unexplaned reason our dev has decided that this is not to be. Get so tired of seeing our Assassins with almost twice the dps I have when before R dev got his stickey little hooks in us I was maybe 10% behind the top one.It's nice to hear that other classes have useless or broken CAs too. Ours being Coverage, Stream and Reclaimed arrows not to mention our stupid bird and I have no idea why Sniper shot is on a 15 minute timer. Why any CA should be on a 15 minute timer. Put that on a 5 minute timer and watch r dps rise. Oh wait a minute, thats right they don't want it to rise. we r fine where we r now. Until our Dev decides to swing his mighty nerf bat(Generic term) once again. But my problem is there should be no broken or usles MAs after all this time. And r dev can take the time to "fix" r litttle conservation problem to our detrement but he cant be bothered to do something about r useless MAs. Because that would raise r dps. Unless of course he pulled another bait and switch on us while "fixing them." The first ranger master I ever saw was...... Stream of Arrows. A guildie offered it to me. I told him its usless and he should sell it. A month later he still had it and offered it too me again forgetting he had earlier. Isn't that sad?So please DO NOT ask him to "fix" anything else.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:16 AM   #11
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feldon30 wrote:
Boramyr wrote:
Also I'm Tired of hearing how rangers are the only class to pay for Damage. Everyone pays to some degree. Everyone uses potions, we are the only folks that get them half price, or in the case of cure potions for 1/10th price. 4 classes use poisons, we get them for half price. Every class uses arrows or thrown weapons. We just use them more and our epic does reduce the amount we use. Having actually compared it with the Assassin's and Rogues in my Raid I spend roughly the same as them all things considered.

Did you even read what you wrote?"Every class uses arrows or thrown weapons" -- I know of no tank, mage, summoner, druid, or healer that uses these. Tanks do sometimes lob an arrow every 10-15 minutes to pull a difficult to reach mob. Not sure how that equates with burning through 1200 arrows in a single raid session.

Ok no mage or priest uses ranged weapons I'm sorry.  Grouping no other class but rangers are going to use ranged weapons for more than pulling.  In raiding yes every class that can use a ranged weapon bow or bandolier will especially in Veeshan's Peak, but not as much as rangers.  "Every class uses potions" -- other than cure potions in raids, some temporary adornments, and fighter/scouts coating their weapons with these, they are primarily the purview of assassins and rangers. No other classes have AA lines which so dramatically improve the effectiveness and functionality of these. Rangers must use these items to equal the DPS of over classes. Classes like mages, who have NO CONSUMABLE MATERIAL for any of their DPS. Unless you count food LOL.

You do realize that there are heal and spell crit potions and temp adornments right? Elixer of Second Sight, Sathirian scroll of Benediction or Combat.  And you are aboslutely right Nobody but rangers has an AA line that makes them cost half has much.  Coverage is clearly a half-baked spell that penalizes you for being close to mobs, meanwhile our epic weapon Eagle's Talon penalizes you for not being close to mobs. Over and over I see advice from seasoned rangers that running in and out of range will lower your DPS and is a bad strategy. So which is it? Are the players wrong or is Coverage designed wrong?

Coverage is poorly designed and not good for every fight.  And moving away from 2m will lower your dps. But on those fights where you have to run out anyway its there waiting for you. 

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Old 08-12-2008, 11:17 AM   #12
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[email protected] Bazaar wrote:
It is insane to think if I betray my ranger to an assassin I can double my parses (or close too it). 
blackdog1 wrote:
Get so tired of seeing our Assassins with almost twice the dps I have

How much DPS are you and your Assassins doing? 2K vs 4K or 4K vs 8K?

Question for both of you? What is more important to you as a player: Playing a Ranger no matter how much DPS you can do with him, or doing the most DPS with your toon no matter what class that is?

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Old 08-12-2008, 06:36 PM   #13
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It's like 2.8k- 5.3k give or take. But often can be more. Once in awhile less. I am never put in the dps groups any more since The "Fixes" Rightfully so. I went from top 3-5 dps to top 10 in raids. If we're short people, I am always in the group who is short. If my guild ever folded I would probally quit because I would be hard pressed to find another guild that will take me on every raid when they could take another more usefull class instead. We bring nothing to the raid but dps. How can the Dev justify us not being up there with Assassins DPS wise?Whats more important isn't just black and white like that. I would rather play a ranger more than the dps but it is very hard to see my dark, sister class pumping out so much more dps since this dev started fixing things. I mean it's right in my face every raid. Your going to say betray then. But I only really enjoy playing Rangers, what can I say. I'm sure if there were no Rangers I would enjoy playing something else. But I just don't want to level another character up to 80 and I don't really want to be an assassin at the cost of losing my Ranger. I picked the Rnager class because I love playing Rangers. Sony decided to make us major dps in this game. I didn't pick Ranger because it was dps. But since its my job to be dps I want to be good at it.Sony and or r DEV won't let us do r job that they assigned to us properly.The most glaring thing of all is the simple fact that if you betray you darn near double your dps. Arn't we suppose to be mirror classes? Thats the way I always took it from the time the game started.My other gripe is we are Rangers, other posters will come out with the definition of Rangers meaning we travel over great distances and it has nothing to do with ranged attacks. If that is the definition Sony is using for us then please explane to me why Sony has seen fit to make r main weapon bows? If your main weapon is a bow it seems to me the definition of Ranger Sony is using is the one of "at Range to target". And since all the classes in this particular game "range" over the same distances at basically the same speeds after horses potions and such, I argue that the other definition for a Ranger dosn't apply to this game. What sense is it calling us Rangers when all classes have the same range? Unless refering to the range of our bows.So why does Sony make us fight on top of the mob to get maximum dps? We have a bow [Removed for Content]! We are suppose to be fighting from afar not on top of the mobs. Someone else said we should be called archers then. Seems to me that is one of the tittles I am avaible to be called, yet even so, I am on top of the mob. This cheeses me off as much as the dps situation.And why does this dev never fix anything that we want fixed that would help us without taking something else away? Fix r useless MAs instead of fixing Conservation so that we take yet another dps hit. I don't care if all the other classes have broken MAs too. Their devs r dropping the ball also. I care about my class and just because theirs r broken is no excuse for ours to be broken to.
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Old 08-12-2008, 06:58 PM   #14
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Sounds like part of your problem is your gettin crap for buffs.   Any raid leader that doesn't realize that a T1 DPS's job is to convert other classes DPS potential into actual DPS is screwing their raid.  Of course that means if you have too many T1 dps classes you are wasting spaces.  My guild can spike 90k on Kor Sha trash.  One assassin can spike 10k I can spike 8k and the other assasin has spiked 7.5k.  My top assassin's average zonewides with named is around 3.8 to 4.8 and mine is 4k to 4.5, usually i'm higher in the zones he's lower in.  But I keep very balanced groups and make sure there are no more T1 dps than I have buffs to give them.   My top assasin has better gear than me and my second assasin has worse.  I'm pretty sure I couldn't just betray and double my dps.  Let me say we are not an Avatar killing guild and I know there is still room for some improvement to everyones numbers.  We still have Trakanon and Byzola to beat for instanced content. 

I can't say what casting order you use but I had to change my playstyle three times during Kunark progression to keep up my dps.  I would say though if you can't adapt to the class don't blame the class, and I would agree Ranger is probably the hardest dps class to play because of the range issue. 

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Old 08-12-2008, 07:25 PM   #15
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Very hard to adapt because I'm never in a steady group. So lets say one week I have a small Str bonus added. My dps is lower. I try to adjust the next raid and my dps is much higher, but I look and see I have a much higher str boost in the group this week. So did my adjustment do any good or is it all because of the extra str.Then the next week I will be in a short group or something with completly different combination of buffs.The double pars difference is partially because of the lesser groups I'm in but the reason I'm in the lesser groups is because the other classes have passed me by dps wise since the fixes.My guild trys for a mixture of being good and taking all people on the raid so alot of times theres lots of dps. Since I can only really raid on Sundays they make sure I get an invite. We r just starting the tier 2 raid content. We actually reached that point back in the early spring but lots of people have been away for summer or left for Conan and we r just starting to get them back.Listen Boramyr I'm happy that you were able to maintain your dps but you seem to be the exception to the rule by far. To me if we have several threads complaining about r dps as compared to an Assassins and within those threads the complaints r running like 10-1 that something is wrong, then I suspect something is wrong at least for the masses.Maybe it something more subtle like, you have to do and know every trick of the book, and exacute it perfectly and then your Ranger can be as good as the Average Assassin. There r plenty more Avg Rangers than their are uber ones. I by no means am a Uber Ranger but I think I'm better than average because I'm the best one in my guild and my guild is a better than avg one. And every level 80 Assassin out parses me before I got switched to the lesser groups. My point being that you shouldn't have to be an Uber Ranger to come close to the Average Assassin in dps. I am not trying to put your Assassins down by calling them Avg. Just going by the fact that your pretty much the only Ranger defending the way things are and the only one posting here that has been able to come close to the Assassin dps. I'm sure your not the only one but your the only one that is posting. So my conclusion is your better than most of us and your Assassins arn't as good at they're trade as you are in yours.
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:52 PM   #16
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Well the fact of the matter is so few rangers post on these boards I know I'm probably in the top 5 rangers on AB definatly in the top 10 and I know who all of those other guys are and they never post on these boards.  And honestly if my work hadn't opened the firewall to this site I wouldn't be posting here either.  But I had the time to check it out and I saw a bunch of people spouting the same misconceptions and wrong information over and over beamoaning the sorry state of a class that isn't really broken.   And I thought to myself you know a long time ago these boards used to be a pretty helpful place and a great place for new rangers to find help.  Now we have level 50 guys coming for help prefacing their posts with "I know this class isn't the best but..."  When I know that yes the ranger class is harder to play that some  we have some crazy things we have to do but we aren't hurting.  There have been times in the last two years where our class was hurting, but now really isn't one of those time,  But like I said earlier I don't play my ranger the same way now I did last year or even before getting my mythical. or before getting my fabled epic.   You have to adapt.  Kind of Ironic since the classic ranger is supposed to be very adapatble.  So I'm here to help.  And for the sake of the new guys to the class I'm going to stand up and speak out against flat out wrong statements. 

 Everyone needs to remember only a very very small minority post on the forums but most of the people in power read them.  And the more a class badmouths itself here the more it gets that rep no matter how wrong it is and the more new players to the class give up.   And I'll tell you right now my assassins are far from average.  And depending on certain peices of gear the gap can widen or lessen. I know it pretty much sucked the three weeks between when we beat druushk and when we beat Nexona and went on to clear VP.  Wizard and Assassins were beating me by 1k easy zone wide.  It was disheartening and my dps suffered because at that point I really couldn't catch up. 

I inspect every ranger I come across and I can fully say that fully 80% of them don't have optimal gear loadouts, and I'm not talking about do they have the best vp gear (I only look at that if I see a mythical) I'm looking for the instanced gear. 

When I get back from Fan Faire I'll see about posting up my casting order to see if that helps folks out some.   

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Old 08-12-2008, 10:24 PM   #17
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I definatly appreciate your taking the time to help out and I will try out anything you post to see how well it works for me. But you metnioned that You have your Mythical, is it possible that the Mythical corrects some of the dps problems we as a group r complaining about? And also unattainable by 90% of the ranger population.I can't help what particular Rangers post on these boards and what ones don't. But I'm sure the reasons you gave for some happy Rangers not posting can be used for just as many probally more unhappy ones not posting. Unless these boards r just a complete anomaly,  there r way more unhappy Rangers not posting than happy ones not posting. But it seems to me by your own addmission the only ones that r happy with the Rangers are the top of the heap Rangers. My point being once again that the Avg. Ranger is having big problems with the class. Maybe the differences between the classes lessen as you become better equiped. Equiped with stuff that 90% of us can't get. Or the class is so hard to properly play only 10% of us can figure it out. That 10% just happens to be doing the high end raids.Why have so many long time Rangers posted on here that they either quit the class or the game entirely because of our issues? Why do we have the reputation of being whiners? I am sure your not saying that if your a whiner you decide to become a Ranger. I will agree with you if a group of people start to whine it can snowball. But what is the the reason for the whining starting up in the first place? Why does it take years to fix our arrows and then have the Dev not metion what he was nerfing in the process of fixing the arrows? Even trying to play up the new utility he gave us that while nice, has no effect what so ever on us being chosen for a raid and further helps the Assassins dps while doing nothing for us.That breeds alot of distrust for the Dev. and Sony. Why do we have basically 3 useless MAs and fettering is still broken with no fixes in sight but r Dev can fix the Conservation. Why does sniper shot need to be on a 15 minute timer? Why do I have to have 3 MAs ready(honed reflexes,primal rage and focus aim) plus a iffy fourth one(coverage) plus another certain type of MA(one from behind or while hidden) all ready to hit so sniper shot can do max damage once every 15 minutes if your lucky and planned everything right. Cool, make me work to get the Max damage. But once every 15 minutes is stupid. And making us use a MA that we have to be at great range to use, thus forcing us out of the stupid sweet spot they make us fight in. Even worse for you with the Mythical. Am I right in assuming coverage is pretty usless for you? If they would bump Sniper Shot down to 5 minutes and get rid of the range restrictions on coverage I would shut up and go away. Or keep it and make stream of arrows a high dps end USABLE MA.You may be completly right with everything you say Boramyr. I do find it very interesting that it's mostly the high end Ranger that have no big problems with the class and almost everyone else seems to be. But the perception, right or wrong is that we are a gimped class. Avg. Rangers rightly or wrongly believe this and Sony does nothing to change the perception. And are dev breeds distrust in his shananagins. So being right will be a small consolation prize when Sony finds they only have the upper 10% playing plus a few newbies on the way up.You bring up some excelent points but I suspect your view point is a little skewed because you play in a very good guild with very good players with very good equipment that most of us are unable to obtain. I suspect you can do things the rest of us can't do because of superior buffs and tactics applied by players that are more "hardcore" than the rest of us. I suspect your higher end equipment neutralizes some of the Assassins advantages. Equipment we can't obtain. this would explane our Dev being happy where we r dps wise. he plays under the same conditions as you and is unaware of whats going on for the Avg Ranger.I have never looked but just wondering, are they complaning on the Assassin baords about anything. Or is life good right now for them?I don't expect to be putting out your type of numbers or your Assassin's numbers. But I do expect to hold my own with people of the same level and equipment as me. Once again thanx for your help.P.S. I actually play on your server.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:35 PM   #18
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I know I started EQ2 after some of the big nerfs and changes to rangers had already gone through. Now that I have learned timing my autoattacks and respeccing my AA trees several times and changing armor I am really enjoying the character. Yes, it's not cheap to be a ranger, and we are so gear-dependent it's not even funny. But overall I'm not complaining too much. Coverage was clearly put in by someone who doesn't know how to get the most out of a ranger and so we need to give feedback on it.One thing I'm hoping to get feedback on is some equipment I stumbled upon in CoA which seems equal to other items in the extremely helpful and well-organized "non-raid gear" thread. I entered the item into Wikia too. I didn't actually LOOT the item. An assassin in the group got it, but it looked like a darn good upgrade for a ranger even compared to faction gear.
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:52 AM   #19
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Hey all. Let me give you my 2cp on this whole mess.

I was in a good rading guild, not a top one but good. We have just got into VP and all and we were moving along nicely. I was going well on the parse. I belive all things being equal: buffs, player skill lvl, masters, ect, rangers can do well on parces. Even when compared to assassins. This is from my personal experiance and i have heard alot of diffrent things on the forums. But again this is from my own exp. I dont think we do enough damage, assassins still do better, but we arent total crap either. Assassins do the big numbers on trash. Who cares if some assassin does 10k on a trash mob and we do 6k? On the nameds fights, you know the ones that matter, we can do ok. And on the zw we do ok too. Again i dont think we r where we should be yet but its close.

My problem is the latest nerf, and yes i know it wasent a real nerf but it was still a nerf, to our DA pots. -3.2 DA, again i dont care what the skill said in this case change the skill to 100%, was unneeded and uncalled for considering we r not blowing away anyone on any parses and indeed still lower than we should be imho.

3.2 DA isent the end of the world, although it is big, so i have decided im done with this game. 3.2 DA nerf was the last straw.

Canceling tonight and i hope you guys get a much needed boost. Im not giving away any pp, so dont ask lol. Also the fact im not giveing anything away is cause there is always a chance ill be back. Well see how good Warhammer is. This ranger thing wasent the only reason, there were others that had nothing to do with eq2 being a bad game, but it was a major one.

Good luck fellow rangers and keep up the good fight.

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Old 08-13-2008, 01:57 PM   #20
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I am NOT in an uber raiding guild. I am not in a “raiding” guild at all. I am in a casual guild that raids at most once or twice a week, sometimes we go three weeks without raiding at all. Our guild alone does not have enough players to completely fill out a raid, so when we raid we end up filling out the raid with alliance guild members or other friends. And I have joined our alliance guilds in filling out their raids. So my situation is different than yours in that I am filling out an “empty” DPS position where it seems you are competing for a limited number of DPS positions.As for DPS, when I first got to level 80 I was doing 1.5K. I was not happy with this when the assassins and wizards I raided with were doing 3K so I took it upon myself to do what I could to improve my gear and my game play. Slowly my dps improved until today it is 3.2K zone wide in my last two raids.So again my situation is different than yours. None of the assassins and wizards that I raid with can do 5.3K zone wide. At best they are even with me at around 3.2K. So either your assassins rock or mine suck. I would consider myself lucky to be in a guild that can put together raids that do 50K+. Mine do 35K at best, which limits what we can kill and the content that I will get to see. I have been to PR, Thuuga, SoH, but I doubt that I will ever see VP. On the other hand I don't raid enough to get there. It is my impression that VP is designed for those players that raid several times a week, not once or twice a month.You say that you used to be in the top 3 DPS. When you were, what was your DPS and what was the DPS of your assassins? Has your DPS slipped or has the assassin’s improved? For me the assassin and wizard DPS has stayed pretty much the same, maybe a 10% improvement, but mine has improved a lot, more than doubled in fact. There are a couple of other points that many people seem to overlook. First a Ranger can do 85% of his max dps while standing 50m from the mob, Assassins cannot. So if you are going to have to deal with mobs where range is an advantage this should be considered. With so many mobs doing AoEs I find it easier and in many cases I can do better overall DPS if I stand back out of the mobs range. 85% of my max is better than getting stunned, feared, or blasted out of the fight (i.e. doing 0 DPS) 20+% of the time. Second, despite all of the issues with rangers, there are many more Rangers than Assassins, so perhaps DPS is not everything for the “average” player. Perhaps the "fun" of playing a ranger is worth more than the extra DPS of an assassin?In the end I stand by my previous statement. This is a game. If you want to play a Ranger, play a Ranger, no matter if your DPS is 1K or 7K. If you want to do the most DPS, then pick the class you think will do the most DPS and play it. But do not be surprised if your DPS does not double the first day that you play it.
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Old 08-13-2008, 07:48 PM   #21
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Danean, to answer your question it was my dps that dropped. I was around 3.7k before the "Fixes". Our Assassin was well over 5k don't remember exactly what then wasn't following it as much. Several guildies saw the damage Assassin was doing and rolled Assassins for themselves. 2 of which have since passed me by. Along with a Swashy and a couple of Wizzies and occasionally a tank or two. After the fixes I dropped, don't remember how much and several others passed me by dps wise. So after the others passed me by I started getting put in the "left over group" which made my dps drop further. The second in command of our guild is one of these guys that you can ask him anything about anything to do with this game and he will 90% of the time know it off the top of his head. He knows your character better than 75% of the players. He has I think 4 or 5 level 80 toons. Not counting his 5 level 80 crafters. He use to be r MT. But he hated playing a tank he just did it until someone else took over. He rolled a new toon and in like 90 days he was a 70(The cap back then) He is a Rotunga Assassin that is doing 5.3k. Didn't see him roll a Ranger. Matter of fact none of his toons r Rangers.Sort of answered this question before. I pretty much ony play Rangers in any game. I picked Ranger for being a Ranger not for dps. However, in this game a Rangers ONLY job is Dps. Our mirror class is clearly Assassin. We both have the same job. Yet the Assassins are clearly superior to Rangers as far as dps go.I love to raid. Pretty much all I do in this game unless a new expansion is out. Raiding spots r very competivly saught after the way the game is set up. Until our Dev started fixing us, I could hold my own dps wise. Therefore securing a spot on the raid force. My spot is not nearly as secure since and I am often invited to raid because I have been in the guild so long and my guild is not all about being Uber. That being said they do want to start doing harder stuff. Is it only a matter of time before I'm not asked to raid any more because they have many other classes that will be more benifical than mine? Right now we usually have about 26-30 people able to raid on any given raid day. But alot of people r away and usually return come fall.Go to the Assassin board. Not one thread over there complaing about anything. What does that tell you? Also someone asked over there which is better to play Ranger or Assassin. One Assassin answered thats really up to you but I have 3 friends who were Rangers and they all betrayed and he said he knew of others also who did. See any Assassins posting here how they betrayed to Ranger? Almost every board has complants about something on them. Not the Assassins.
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Old 08-13-2008, 08:55 PM   #22
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ok first of all i agree that there are things wrong with our class and our dev has the wrong or a different idea about what we are supposed to be capable of and what we are supposed to be like!on that note! I think if an assasin is doubling yer dps where you do 2500 and the assasin does 5000 then there is something wrong with you as a ranger ! in MC gear back b4 i started going hardcore raiding i was doing 4-5 k with no freaking buffs well maybe a strenght buff here and there but no IA no dirge no dehate nothing! i dont really have an assasin to compare with since the asssasin i got in my current guild does 6-20 k parses but he is geared to the teeth, and he has always some kinda sweet buff on him and there is nothing wrong with that at all in the end his dps helps our raidforce succeed just as much as mine does!Now i have some better gear and when i get IA / dirge buffs zerker buffs whatever a dream group and the assasin does too.... then i am only like 1000-1500 dps behind him and i aint talking 2500 4000 im talking 12000 10500 something as a disparity! or on parry mobs like monks or bruisers maybe 9000 - 7500 cause of the lower hit ratio.....Now if your parses are being doubled then yes you are doing something wrong badly i dont know what ya do i dont know how yer geared i dont know how ya compare to the assasin but ya gotta realize that rangers are one of the classes that is most dependant on gear after tanks to fullfill their jobs! and b4 you actually respond think about what yer doing and try to improve whatever ya think ya can improve after ya did that read the first sentence i wrote and then reply!PS: im not trying to flame ya or anything just trying to motivate you and other rangers to make the best of a bad situation and afterall being 1000-1500 dps behind our evil brethren seems fair to me after all they have to joust all AEs and their DPS drops cause of it we can remain shooting of CAs and AAs and soloing we have the upper hand by far ever seen an assasin one shot a mob from 50 m away........ no they gotta run over there and start bashing em with their weapons cause a bow attack wont one shot the mobs..... anyways GL with whatever yer gonna do!Greetz tha styxxey
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:14 PM   #23
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AdiX__Styxx__ wrote:

ok first of all i agree that there are things wrong with our class and our dev has the wrong or a different idea about what we are supposed to be capable of and what we are supposed to be like!on that note! I think if an assasin is doubling yer dps where you do 2500 and the assasin does 5000 then there is something wrong with you as a ranger ! in MC gear back b4 i started going hardcore raiding i was doing 4-5 k with no freaking buffs well maybe a strenght buff here and there but no IA no dirge no dehate nothing! i dont really have an assasin to compare with since the asssasin i got in my current guild does 6-20 k parses but he is geared to the teeth, and he has always some kinda sweet buff on him and there is nothing wrong with that at all in the end his dps helps our raidforce succeed just as much as mine does!

/chuckle, you were haveing a hard time doing 4-5k buffed when you started hardcore raiding 2-3 months ago, lets not puff up like superman.

Also before you started raiding hardcore didnt you betray to a assassin, then after getting accepted you betrayed back to a ranger (or very shortly before hand), so maybe you were doing 4-5k as your assassin....../shrug Im not 100% positive on the betrayal part

Now i have some better gear and when i get IA / dirge buffs zerker buffs whatever a dream group and the assasin does too.... then i am only like 1000-1500 dps behind him and i aint talking 2500 4000 im talking 12000 10500 something as a disparity! or on parry mobs like monks or bruisers maybe 9000 - 7500 cause of the lower hit ratio.....

You mean your spiking that high on a a very few and select encounters, where he ( I wont name him, I still like him) is still 1.5 -2.5k dps ZW ahead of you. Also above you said 6-20k so that means even if you get your occassional 10k - he is still doing up to 10k more spike damge. And not only that but he is spiking that high on every encounter that he isnt /afk, where yours is sporadic.Now if your parses are being doubled then yes you are doing something wrong badly i dont know what ya do i dont know how yer geared i dont know how ya compare to the assasin but ya gotta realize that rangers are one of the classes that is most dependant on gear after tanks to fullfill their jobs! and b4 you actually respond think about what yer doing and try to improve whatever ya think ya can improve after ya did that read the first sentence i wrote and then reply!

/coughPS: im not trying to flame ya or anything just trying to motivate you and other rangers to make the best of a bad situation and afterall being 1000-1500 dps behind our evil brethren seems fair to me after all they have to joust all AEs and their DPS drops cause of it we can remain shooting of CAs and AAs and soloing we have the upper hand by far ever seen an assasin one shot a mob from 50 m away........ no they gotta run over there and start bashing em with their weapons cause a bow attack wont one shot the mobs..... anyways GL with whatever yer gonna do!

 To actually compete with assassins we have to stay right behind them for the bonus with our bow. There isnt ANY AE that they have to joust that a ranger does not have to,if you are at the bonus distance, so our DPS goes down as well haveing to joust. They have ZERO justifacation to being 1.5k - 3k ZW ahead of any class.

Yes I still have access to your parses, even after the channel change  SMILEYGreetz tha styxxey

Pretty lame for you to come and post that after ALOT of help you have recieved from myself and 3-4 other top end rangers (which I wont name).

Why dont you share the tips and help that you have recieved, instead of just spouting off that there is something wrong with them as rangers - since you sucked that bad less than 3 months ago, yes you have improved nicely in that time, just NOT to the tune your thumping your chest to.

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Old 08-14-2008, 07:10 PM   #24
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Venez, thanx so much for your reply. I had pretty much resigned of speaking any more on this thread after Adix post. I had realized that something wasn't right about stuff he was posting but wasn't sure what it was. Mostly the numbers he was spouting seemed quit inflatted and he didn't seem like he was coming off as trying to be helpful at all. It least Boramyr was at least trying to help. The MC gear doing 4.5k with no buffs seemed especially high. And 6k-20k for his Assassin is an alwful wide range.Not to mention 20k sounding kind of high. But maybe he is. And in the same sentence he says he dosn't have an Assassin to compare to, then he goes of and compares himself to one. So when he wanted to make a point he suddenly remembered the Uber Assassin of all time to help his point. So I just didn't want to get into it with him and his very condecending post.Also he managed to take stuff I said out of context in an effort to, it seems to me bilittle me. My Assassin wasn't doubling my dps until I was put in the left over groups. I also said maybe the desparity in dps lessens once rangers get there mythicals and that might be the reason the higher end rangers arn't having as big a problem as the rest of us. He chose to ignore that I said this. He also took the attitude that I just all of a sudden became bad after the arrow change instead of the change and not being in good groups having something to with it.Any way getting tired of typing the same stuff over and over only to be attacked by someone who wants to massage his ego.To be honest, I thought he was just an Assassin that came over here to put another whining Ranger in his place. It appears I was half right.Laters
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:18 PM   #25
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venez yes i had help from you and fromother top end rangers but on top of that i experimented a lot and i mean a lot with cast combos timers and timing both soloing and raiding also with AAs perfectionist you talked me out of and i tested it on parses this still does not mean that someone should overreact about how falthy the ranger class is and to a certain extent i did say there was something wrong with the ranger class! and it also does not mean that the only reason my dps or skill has increased just by talking to them, altough yes it did help!

The numbers i put up there ill explain something about those and yes they are accurate wether ya see the parses or not let me explain! When you are way in the back (which yes i agree is bad for yer DPS) ya wont show up at all well maybe for 1500 or so on someone else parse lets say the assasin while on your parse they wont show up! in elysium they call this venez parses and yes there are some jokes about ya going around and ive always defended ya but since ya shove my face in the dirt im not doing that no more.... anyways chemical or someone else may parse something in the channel which wont show me at all since they are max range and ill be up the butt of the mob trying to do the most dps while his doesnt show the assasins dps or mine accurately most of the time i run my own parser and compare the numbers he parses with the ones mine says ussually the ZW which have a big disparity between his parse and mine or the assasins since he parses occasionally too and im sure other people in raids parses are different too! so yea i try to avoid venez parses!And no i was indeed hitting 4-5 k in mastercrafted gear (EH bow tho) in t7 wihtout any buffs ya never saw those parses so ya really cant say nothing about those heck ya didnt even know me back then stridure did tho and he can verify what im saying here but frankly i dont really care wether ya believe me or not yer info is just not accurate. So it hasnt just been 2-3 months of raiding for me i just havent played my ranger when t8 came out as much after i hit 80 cause the guild i was in wanted my chanter (/puke)...On top of that no i never betrayed that was just an inside joke between stridure and me....plz get yer facts straight b4 even talking about anything!One thing yer right about tho and thats the 10 k extra spike damage the assasin can do and yes i wont mention his name either but i bet people here will know who he is, but no he has had encounters were he in fact was not afk (grmbl afk doesnt even count) and he couldnt do more then 8 k ish or so but this was a fight right after a big spike fight so all his stuff is down so yea assasins cant spike all the time but if they do spike they are capable of spiking so much higher then rangers (remember my first sentence on my previous post?)Lastly about the jousting yes we have to stay right on the mob for max dps and we have to joust with the assasin the difference is tho.....(am i really explaining this to you one of my mentors)that while yer running out you can keep autoattacking from range with yer bow sure the assasin can do the same but the mythical bow is much better then any dropped bow a assasin can obtain thats just a slight disparity tho now calculate in the combat arts assasin only has 3 ranged combat arts they can use while jousting while we can use how many.....??? yea i thought so common man be a lil more on the ball here.And to borymir and all the other rangers yer more then welcome to send a /tell crushbone.styxxey if ya want some advice have questions or whatever if ya read my presious post again and think about it again its not condescending its not flaming its trying to motivate people so after ya read it yer gonna think [Removed for Content]IF THAT GUY CAN DO IT WHY CANT I!!!! and test stuff and improve bits by bits!PS: btw venez all of yer advice was nice at first but all of it was contradicted by other rangers i spoke too i combined your advice with the advice i got from others and got better results then just listening to you or the others i think that has to do with a certain playstyle....and it also has to do with gear rangers are after tanks the most gear dependant class to do their job.. so yea my guild helped me out a lot there!Greetz tha styxxey
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:30 PM   #26
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blackdog1 wrote:
Venez, thanx so much for your reply. I had pretty much resigned of speaking any more on this thread after Adix post. I had realized that something wasn't right about stuff he was posting but wasn't sure what it was. Mostly the numbers he was spouting seemed quit inflatted and he didn't seem like he was coming off as trying to be helpful at all. It least Boramyr was at least trying to help. The MC gear doing 4.5k with no buffs seemed especially high. And 6k-20k for his Assassin is an alwful wide range.Not to mention 20k sounding kind of high. But maybe he is. And in the same sentence he says he dosn't have an Assassin to compare to, then he goes of and compares himself to one. So when he wanted to make a point he suddenly remembered the Uber Assassin of all time to help his point. So I just didn't want to get into it with him and his very condecending post.Also he managed to take stuff I said out of context in an effort to, it seems to me bilittle me. My Assassin wasn't doubling my dps until I was put in the left over groups. I also said maybe the desparity in dps lessens once rangers get there mythicals and that might be the reason the higher end rangers arn't having as big a problem as the rest of us. He chose to ignore that I said this. He also took the attitude that I just all of a sudden became bad after the arrow change instead of the change and not being in good groups having something to with it.Any way getting tired of typing the same stuff over and over only to be attacked by someone who wants to massage his ego.To be honest, I thought he was just an Assassin that came over here to put another whining Ranger in his place. It appears I was half right.Laters

Some of his numbers are sorta inflated. You can get 4.5k dps in mastercrafted, but I occasionally play a friends ranger that is in a casuel raid guild, he has slightly better than MC gear and I can spike him as high as 6.5 - key word is spike. Its not a everytime thing nor is it a zonewide thing. 

After playing his non-raid/casuel raid guild and geard ranger in some pretty iffy groups I tend to lean towards these type of rangers being around 2.5-3k ZWs, and in a good group Ive had his ranger around 4k-4.8k ZW,dont think I ever got 5k zw on his ranger. There raid DPS tends to be about 25k - 30k, so its not very high at all. Now this is me going from my ranger to his and I tend to believe I do well on my ranger..but thats just me =) . So someone that doesnt know what they are doing or has limited knowledge and skills, I would tend to think they would/could be up to a quite a bit lower. BTW: there assassin was about 6k zw +/-

The mythical does do wonders for your DPS, but it will not bring you up to a assassins level if the players are equal/simularly skilled/geared and grouped. Back in like LU 38 when they merged the 1h/duel wield, the melee scouts recieved a HUGH bonus to there dps. Assassins DPS went thru the roof in RoK  because of this boost while we had our arrows nerfed or as Aeralik likes to say, he fixed them so they showed the proper damage which amazingly was the exact same as what they were before the "fix". So we stayed nerfed our brother the assassin kept climbing, some of it due to the complete ignorance of the Dev team to put in equal +crit/da/ca bonus's as the melees and the hugh bonus they recieved in LU 38.

The big numbers that Styxxey is refering to are flat out burns on short encounters. During this type of burn it is possible for a ranger to go 10k+, ive been at 14k on these types, as have alot of the top end raiding rangers,some of which I know have been higher. The time i hit 14k our assassin was at 19-20k, 2 wizzys were both 16k+.  So even tho all these top rangers are able to put up pretty sick numbers at times, if they are with a equal played/geared assassin, they are behind them I would "guess" by up to 20%ish. This is just what ive seen from other top end rangers that have some pretty good assassins to compete with, where as in T7 we were slightly ahead, in T8 they are completly blowing everyone away, not just Rangers.

It takes alot of tinkering with your CA order/timeing of your auto attacks to do good dps. That is just the tip of it tho, those are the basics. If you dont have decent gear you lower your dps, if you dont have a good group - you lower your dps. I used to tell all the rangers I talked with to make sure they had as much STR as they could get, then worry about +RC. Most of these players had a increase in there damage, it is still my personal belief that if you dont have good stats and start lowering them even more to gain a few crit% that you lower your dps. I also believe that if you want to do good dps while raiding that when you are soloing,grouping,doing instances that you "try" to run the same ca order / auto attack pattern that you would do in raids, dont play a non-raid style if your not raiding, practice,practice,practice its what every topend raid ranger does to try and get to the top.

Sorry for rambling, ill try to be more coharent next time

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Old 08-14-2008, 08:41 PM   #27
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Lol, the only person in Ely to outparse me when I was there.....thats right the assassin. It didnt matter who parsed we were normally all withing a few points +/- of each other, the only time my parse was borked is when I had to stand out in left field to get the hit box ; gratz VP.

Funny thing you say "all the others" say I was wrong,or contridicted me (maybe I am) but when we asked you for these great tips that you got, you wouldnt tell anyone in channel lol. Also why would you combine my advice with what others said, if I was so wrong ?Ive never seen any Ranger go from 4k zws to 10k zws in 2 months or any other class getting 8k+ on Maestro, except for you!

You are now my Hero and im just trying to emulate what you do so I can raise my ZW dps to your level, because its quite obvious your now above my skill level and im just trying to learn the tricks that you did SMILEY

Really Ill try to be nice in the future but I think your full of it /shrug

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Old 08-14-2008, 09:16 PM   #28
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blackdog1 wrote:
Danean, to answer your question it was my dps that dropped. I was around 3.7k before the "Fixes". Our Assassin was well over 5k don't remember exactly what then wasn't following it as much. Several guildies saw the damage Assassin was doing and rolled Assassins for themselves. 2 of which have since passed me by. Along with a Swashy and a couple of Wizzies and occasionally a tank or two. After the fixes I dropped, don't remember how much and several others passed me by dps wise. So after the others passed me by I started getting put in the "left over group" which made my dps drop further. The second in command of our guild is one of these guys that you can ask him anything about anything to do with this game and he will 90% of the time know it off the top of his head. He knows your character better than 75% of the players. He has I think 4 or 5 level 80 toons. Not counting his 5 level 80 crafters. He use to be r MT. But he hated playing a tank he just did it until someone else took over. He rolled a new toon and in like 90 days he was a 70(The cap back then) He is a Rotunga Assassin that is doing 5.3k. Didn't see him roll a Ranger. Matter of fact none of his toons r Rangers.Sort of answered this question before. I pretty much ony play Rangers in any game. I picked Ranger for being a Ranger not for dps. However, in this game a Rangers ONLY job is Dps. Our mirror class is clearly Assassin. We both have the same job. Yet the Assassins are clearly superior to Rangers as far as dps go.I love to raid. Pretty much all I do in this game unless a new expansion is out. Raiding spots r very competivly saught after the way the game is set up. Until our Dev started fixing us, I could hold my own dps wise. Therefore securing a spot on the raid force. My spot is not nearly as secure since and I am often invited to raid because I have been in the guild so long and my guild is not all about being Uber. That being said they do want to start doing harder stuff. Is it only a matter of time before I'm not asked to raid any more because they have many other classes that will be more benifical than mine? Right now we usually have about 26-30 people able to raid on any given raid day. But alot of people r away and usually return come fall.Go to the Assassin board. Not one thread over there complaing about anything. What does that tell you? Also someone asked over there which is better to play Ranger or Assassin. One Assassin answered thats really up to you but I have 3 friends who were Rangers and they all betrayed and he said he knew of others also who did. See any Assassins posting here how they betrayed to Ranger? Almost every board has complants about something on them. Not the Assassins.
I agree we are not "exactly" equal to an assassin at the max dps level. On the other hand I can do a LOT more than he can at 50m. And in many of the fights that I have been in that made a big difference.If I understand you correctly, you went from 3.7K to 2.8k when you left a "good group". Well as much as 800 of that can be just because you left the "good group". I know I can expect 6-800 just from a set of "good group" buffs, 200+ from IA alone. You can make up some of that loss with better gear (you are missing a few pieces of the best "easy to get" stuff) and perhaps some more of it by timing your CAs a little "better". The one thing that helped me the most was learning when to hit Focus Aim in relation to everyone else's debuffs (dispatch etc) and then getting in all of my best CAs during those 15 seconds. Another question for you, how are the other three assassins doing, are they putting out 5.3K as well? How about the other two rangers, are they sitting at 2.8K as well? In the end there are three things that effect how much DPS any character can do, how well geared he is, how much help he gets from others, and finally how good the player behind the toon is. All three have a huge impact, as much as 1K or more from each one.
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Old 08-14-2008, 09:40 PM   #29
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venez when i was asked for those tips i was kinda busy when i did have time to talk about em there wasnt anyone left in the channel so no point then... i did say in the channel send me a tell later and yea a few rangers actually did send tells and ask questions or mailed me with em and i replied to all of em..... the previous post ya made makes a lot more sense and actually is accurate! so yer back on the ball again which is good! Did ya see the 8k parse from me on maestro or was it just what i told ya? cause really i cant recall telling ya that at all i did do 7141 dps on maestro tho! not 8 k and it was during the pot bug that gave +16 RDA to potions or 16 crit! i had if i recall correctly in that fight 96% crit and 79 RDA with 1100 strenght!on a sidenote i never said yer advice was wrong of falthy i said the others were contradicting it i never elaborated on it yer just assuming things here but here ill bite and explain what i ment...you told me like ya said in yer post that strenght is the most important stat this is true altough it is to a certain degree i noticed that as soon as ya go over 900 strenght that it isnt really worth getting more strenght over crits or RDA now after ya got 900 strenght then ranged crit becomes more important till ya reach around 75%+ once ya have this every extra crit increase wont do as much anymore compared to RDA it will still help but now ranged double attack is more important in other words if yer a non raid ranger your advice is solid if yer a raid ranger ya will have acces to a lotta gear that will eventually get yer strenght so high that its not worth getting more! While your exact wording was strenght get strenght and do not sacrafice strenght for ranged crit or rda!reason a ranger should go for crits first over rda is that if ya get a rda wihtout critting it it would still be a really poor AA if it actually crits it would do like twice the damage of a rda wihtout a crit! think about that a lil then test it for yerself and see what results ya come up with!So something else i said in my previous post was that rangers are highly dependant on gear after tanks, ya can compare it with mages and their spells if they run around with apr 1 they will suck with m1 they will own. Rangers need M1s well or at least adept 3 and gear that helps a ton sure mages need that too but still!  so togheter with my testing stuff and toddling around with stuff to improve my gear kept improving too giving me more options etc more options means more dps!Oh and cant really compare manaburn with sustained pred dps can ya?But yea we are still behind but with the tools we do have we can still do really well if ya push it, and to me ranger is still since i ever created this toon the most enjoyeable class broken or not falthy or not!
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Old 08-14-2008, 09:57 PM   #30
Lodor

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Join Date: Feb 2005
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Its a matter of gear and buffs. All things being equal an assassin will outparse a ranger by maybe 5-10%.

But that doesnt mean a ranger is not doing their dps job. A mythical ranger with lets say 30% range DA and 60% range crit and 30ish melee crit self buffed should be doing in the neighborhood of 4kish zonewide on raids where they get no outside buffs at all.

But take the same ranger and give them IA, bard buffs and some other random buffs they can zonewide 6-8k depending on the zone.

I have been on both ends of the stick. In a vp guild with and without buffs and in pick up raids with no buffs. There is a lot more to this issue then just being a ranger.

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