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Old 08-14-2012, 02:36 PM   #31
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Ok, 33 posts in 12 hours and only 1? maybe 2 to saying they disagree with the OP? I think I am at a point where I need a Lead Dev to come in here and talk to us about how they plan on addressing this and doing to now. there are much more fun things I can do with my time that will not give me Carpel Tunnel and Migraines.
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Old 08-14-2012, 02:57 PM   #32
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[email protected] wrote:

I think I am at a point where I need a Lead Dev to come in here and talk to us about how they plan on addressing this and doing to now. there are much more fun things I can do with my time that will not give me Carpel Tunnel and Migraines.

LOLOL

Wow, thats the funniest thing I've read in a while.   You will get no acknowledgement of this thread, ever.

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Old 08-14-2012, 03:25 PM   #33
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hmm nice feedback as normal slippery; however, devs are reading this and thinking to themselves hmm he's right and we should do this in eq2next so we can keep our brand new full blown cash shop raking in the money for the company.

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Old 08-14-2012, 03:56 PM   #34
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[email protected] wrote:

hmm nice feedback as normal slippery; however, devs are reading this and thinking to themselves hmm he's right and we should do this in eq2next so we can keep our brand new full blown cash shop raking in the money for the company.

Just a hunch, but I suspect the FTP/SC model is not proving nearly as successful for SOE, as they had hoped. SOE pulled subscriptions from SC, despite "great figures" during promo events (stated by John Smedley), to assess the best model to follow going forward. Not long after, SOE states the intention to remove expansions from the cash shop. Actions speak volumes, and the choices SOE made, say plenty.But, to keep it on topic...SOE tell us that they are gamers too. That is good. But I do wonder, are they gamers who participate in the upper end of EQ2? At a Skyshrine level raiding? Even more relevant, a part of a guild working on PoW? Or have they even attempted to work on a non-raid character, transitioning from EasyMode Skyshrine heroic zones, into HardMode Skyshrine heroic zones?Designing interesting raid content would undoubtably be a challenge for SOE. But it would be a challenge made easier, if it were undertaken by staff who have extensive first hand experience at challenging content. Otherwise getting the right mix of challenge, without being overkill, would be pot-shot stabs in the dark, hoping for success, but missing more often than not.A small angle I will throw out, for consideration... Is the cause of the problem which we endure, a byproduct of us actually being given tools to deal with intense situations? Death saves, damage prevents, insane ward stacks, ACT/GC functionality, avoidance temps, they would all trivialize most encounters, unless they had the tools to test those reactions.Year after year, we get more tools to "save the day", and year after year, mobs get more tools to "ruin the day".A very basic example, a looooong time ago, most DoTs used to allow time for a priest to single target cure a whole group, maybe slipping a group heal in the middle of it. Now, all priest group cures remove all types of effects, and we have detrimentals that MUST be cured fast. Co-incidence? I would say not.  And yes, I have very clear memory of days when people would squabble over who gets single target cured (on AEs) first.

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Old 08-14-2012, 04:27 PM   #35
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

hmm nice feedback as normal slippery; however, devs are reading this and thinking to themselves hmm he's right and we should do this in eq2next so we can keep our brand new full blown cash shop raking in the money for the company.

Just a hunch, but I suspect the FTP/SC model is not proving nearly as successful for SOE, as they had hoped. SOE pulled subscriptions from SC, despite "great figures" during promo events (stated by John Smedley), to assess the best model to follow going forward. Not long after, SOE states the intention to remove expansions from the cash shop. Actions speak volumes, and the choices SOE made, say plenty.

i agree with you especally after seeing this on eq2wire in a comment

“[Social and free-to-play] is a business I think a lot of companies are learning is difficult to sustain for the long term. It’s an adjunct or it’s an add-on, but it’s not where gaming is headed.” –Jack Tretton, CEO of CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment America (SOE’s parent company)

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Old 08-14-2012, 04:50 PM   #36
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Thats the thing though, I like a fight where I feel like I have Carpal Tunnel afterwards. That to me is fun. They shouldn't make future stuff facerollable easy, not one person here is saying that. Death touches are fine, charms are fine, everything we have now is fine but, not when it happens on EVERY...SINGLE...FIGHT. The randomness factor can also be challenging and pretty fun at times but, getting a mob to 30% stable and have something stupid that you cannot avoid wipe tank + raid is just not fun. Keep the death touches/charms/everything you had before, just add more variety. Whats funny is, some of these encounters, without the randomness to them, would be pretty easy and I dont want that. We all say 'figure out a way to make it challenging but less random" but, some encounters you really have no way to make challenging without making them annoying. Put some thought into the fights instead of having scriptv2 do it for you.
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Old 08-14-2012, 05:23 PM   #37
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permadeath in EQ Next imo.

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Old 08-14-2012, 05:25 PM   #38
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The developers should pay attention to slippery's opening post. He makes extremely valid points.

I'm in a raiding guild on the only pvp server left, which pales in comparison to true pve/server guilds that take raiding to a higher level.

I enjoy raiding very much, however, I am sick and tired or running Underdepths, Sevelak, Underdepths, Sevelak, Underdepths, Sevelak, yadda yadda yadda. Occasionally, we'll toss in some HM Drunder (which of course, we have not cleared yet). It's been rinse/repeat on the two DoV raid zones for exactly a year now, and Drunder is still uncleared.

I realize Eqilibrium and many other guilds are hardcore compared to a semi-casual raiding guild on Nagafen, but the point is the same; raiding has become too difficult. I don't think there is a gamer in the world that doesn't want a great challenge for their gaming dollar, but there comes a time to say enough is enough. We're defeated Sony. We can't topple your mobs, so lets reset a touch, and allow some larger content to come forward, exactly like slippery stated. 

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Old 08-14-2012, 06:08 PM   #39
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Based on what I've seen and experienced, raiding isn't too hard, it's simply just broken or not worth killing in many cases.  Just look at patch kills, one day a mob is impossible the next they change a mechanic and guilds can one pull it.  The hardest part of raiding is finding competent people to show up that find the game fun.

SOE needs to do a better job on making sure that the content is actually killable by what they feel is their target audience and that the reward matches the difficulty before they put it out.  With a good portion of the DoV1 content it felt like it was either killable or broken, there wasn't much in-between.  Don't waste players time by putting in artificial progression by keeping mobs broken for so long.  I'm not saying that it should be like RoK though, where VP mobs were easy and then later boosted to be much harder... but the game should at least be playable when the content is launched. 

I stopped raiding shortly after Drunder came out, I got tired of waiting for patches to make mobs killable and waiting for the loot to be boosted.  Raiding felt like a waste of time after a while and the "wow factor" of getting OP gear from Avatars was long gone.  Anyway, IMO raiding isn't hard... it's just broken and there are too few competent people who are willing to commit a lot of time to the game anymore.

TLDR: I'm a scrub.

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Old 08-14-2012, 06:21 PM   #40
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Wait, I thought you wanted it harder?

Where are all the people screaming 'Stop dumbing it down!"?

I figured people wanted it like that on the top end so that only a thousand or so people world wide would be able to even see inside those zones.  Keeps your egos up and all.

Guildprogress says only 2 guilds worldwide have downed everything.  Isn't that the way raiders want it?  So they feel special?  My Server (Guk) doesn't have anyone who has even downed Sevelak.  2 guilds are just getting going in PoW.

Posts like this make me chuckle, all people ever do is say how easy the game is and talk down to people who are struggling in lower areas, and call people names who aren't able to do certain things. 

Isn't the classic line "If someone is doing it then its doable so shut up and go do it"  Enjoy what you asked for is what it looks like to me.  I realize the OP is doing it, great for him/her.  I was just under the impression those people wanted it even harder from everything I read.  If you are doing it, why "dumb it down"?  The other one i hear is "You aren't supposed to bang on the zone door and get your loot."

Will I be in PoW, nah.    I can see in HM Drunder after all the EM are down that i am probably at my limit in reaction times etc.  I don't care to bang my head against a wall.  Right now i am quite content with EM over and over getting everyone all their gear at the mercy of the RNG.  I will bust my butt to do whatever in HM as long as I can keep up, and bow out when it goes beyond me.  Malteor, kill the add and you have what 2 seconds to find the detriment right click and cancel it.  I type all day my hands sometimes just don't move that fast. (I haven't missed it yet, but it will happen im sure and the 'guys' will forgive me)  Blazeclaw pre-nerf was iffy at best for me.

I just never thought of an MMO being about reaction time, more strategy/planning/tactics.  But I am also not the kind of person that zones a level 12 healer into PR to do the rez so I can solo the zone like apparently most of the people on my server.  I see that as an exploit, they see it as thinking out of the box.  Stacking classes is something we don't do and that is probably why we aren't further in progression in HM drunder.

Now i am putting on my flame retardant suit for the incoming volley.  Enjoy your pot shots!

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Old 08-14-2012, 06:43 PM   #41
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

Wait, I thought you wanted it harder?

Where are all the people screaming 'Stop dumbing it down!"?

I figured people wanted it like that on the top end so that only a thousand or so people world wide would be able to even see inside those zones.  Keeps your egos up and all.

Guildprogress says only 2 guilds worldwide have downed everything.  Isn't that the way raiders want it?  So they feel special?  My Server (Guk) doesn't have anyone who has even downed Sevelak.  2 guilds are just getting going in PoW.

Posts like this make me chuckle, all people ever do is say how easy the game is and talk down to people who are struggling in lower areas, and call people names who aren't able to do certain things. 

Isn't the classic line "If someone is doing it then its doable so shut up and go do it"  Enjoy what you asked for is what it looks like to me.  I realize the OP is doing it, great for him/her.  I was just under the impression those people wanted it even harder from everything I read.  If you are doing it, why "dumb it down"?  The other one i hear is "You aren't supposed to bang on the zone door and get your loot."

Will I be in PoW, nah.    I can see in HM Drunder after all the EM are down that i am probably at my limit in reaction times etc.  I don't care to bang my head against a wall.  Right now i am quite content with EM over and over getting everyone all their gear at the mercy of the RNG.  I will bust my butt to do whatever in HM as long as I can keep up, and bow out when it goes beyond me.  Malteor, kill the add and you have what 2 seconds to find the detriment right click and cancel it.  I type all day my hands sometimes just don't move that fast. (I haven't missed it yet, but it will happen im sure and the 'guys' will forgive me)  Blazeclaw pre-nerf was iffy at best for me.

I just never thought of an MMO being about reaction time, more strategy/planning/tactics.  But I am also not the kind of person that zones a level 12 healer into PR to do the rez so I can solo the zone like apparently most of the people on my server.  I see that as an exploit, they see it as thinking out of the box.  Stacking classes is something we don't do and that is probably why we aren't further in progression in HM drunder.

Now i am putting on my flame retardant suit for the incoming volley.  Enjoy your pot shots!

Harder was poor wording.  Bad scripts don't take skill into account as much as scripts that require thought. They aren't 'hard' because they are difficult. They are 'hard' because they require a certain class setup and luck.

A thousand? That's like everyone who plays...I'm not even close to downing everything...and I do want endgame raids to be challenging long enough to keep me busy until new content is available...but only if it's difficult based on skill, not setup and luck.

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Old 08-14-2012, 06:59 PM   #42
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CoLD MeTaL wrote:

Wait, I thought you wanted it harder?

Where are all the people screaming 'Stop dumbing it down!"?

I think you're confused. People do want hard, or lets say more accurately, difficult. I'm not here to "flame" you. I think you make a few good points. But my opinion is that slippery's OP makes a lot of sense. And also, I think most people on these boards remember crafting with resins and oils. I don't think "dumbing it down" is what this post is about.

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:09 PM   #43
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[email protected] wrote:

A small angle I will throw out, for consideration... Is the cause of the problem which we endure, a byproduct of us actually being given tools to deal with intense situations? Death saves, damage prevents, insane ward stacks, ACT/GC functionality, avoidance temps, they would all trivialize most encounters, unless they had the tools to test those reactions.Year after year, we get more tools to "save the day", and year after year, mobs get more tools to "ruin the day".A very basic example, a looooong time ago, most DoTs used to allow time for a priest to single target cure a whole group, maybe slipping a group heal in the middle of it. Now, all priest group cures remove all types of effects, and we have detrimentals that MUST be cured fast. Co-incidence? I would say not.  And yes, I have very clear memory of days when people would squabble over who gets single target cured (on AEs) first.

This is something I can agree with to a large extent. In the past, players maybe had 2 or 3 emergency abilities in the course of 15 minutes, where in today's game someone might have anywhere from 10 all the way up to around 30+ different emergency abilities that they can use in a period of 15 minutes now, and if your going to design content around fully utilizing the tools that players have received, the natural progression of raid design is going to push it harder and harder. As more and more of a raid is designed around special abilities, the more unforgiving an encounter gets when you screw up, because the amount of time between having to do something next is lower and lower, and thus the amount of time you have to recover from a mistake is less and less.

There is one more change to most all the "hard" encounters out in the game right now, that has changed from the past, is power management. While many people may have forgotten this, before DoV, all power drains could just be warded. Also in the past there was, MUCH more power gear out there. Lets just take EoF for example, in EoF as a healer that was very well geared, I was procing around 900 to 1200 power every single time I cast a heal without exception due to something like 7 different items I had that proced anywhere from 150 to 300 power, with all the procs being modifiable. Where as compared to today, a single raid encounter could have 3 different aoes that all drain power significantly, both when they land and over time before they are cured, a pulse that the encounter gives off that can drain significant amounts of power, both adds and named can have single target abilities that drain power, all on top of both curses and death touches that full drain power, and last but no least lets not forget that the encounter has a static debuff placed on the player that reads something like when power is consumed player uses 556% more. Players have to deal with ALL of that, while having less access to power regeneration tools than there has been since KoS.

My point here is that the power issue that these high end fights have is most likely the single largest common theme that makes encounters over the top too hard, and requires raids to be built with certain classes more than any other factor.

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:23 PM   #44
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Juggercap wrote:

Harder was poor wording.  Bad scripts don't take skill into account as much as scripts that require thought. They aren't 'hard' because they are difficult. They are 'hard' because they require a certain class setup and luck.

A thousand? That's like everyone who plays...I'm not even close to downing everything...and I do want endgame raids to be challenging long enough to keep me busy until new content is available...but only if it's difficult based on skill, not setup and luck.

This is a good example of a post where something needs some clarifying to help some players what is actually going on with these encounters.

First off, these encounters ARE based around exact setup guidelines that are quite strict, this part is a correct observation. The next part is about the luck, the luck really isn't there at all, it only about taking the correct steps to remove the luck from the encounter.

Here are a couple examples of things that seem like luck but they are not. Using the commanders as an example, they have a pulse that randomly stuns people for sort periods of time, and a red message that a tank has too joust, when the stun pulse lines up with the red message, most players would say I got screwed by bad luck and died there. This is an explanation about how this isn't luck, if you take the proper precautions, you can give the tank significant in combat run speed buffs, to help them get out of the red message much faster, you can also use things like control effect immunity skills right before a red message as well. Now from the tanks standpoint, there may be nothing that player can do a all within their personal power to deal with the situation and it may feel like 100 percent luck from their viewpoint, but that doesn't mean other players can't coordinate their own skills to help someone else deal with the "luck".

A simple second example would be on Berik, where he has both a death touch hate drop, and an ability that requires a tank goes and stands next to a healer, when the mob also can't get close to a healer or they instantly die. So what can happen is the death touch hate drop can happen while a tank that is holding the named has to run into the raid to stand on top of a healer, and then the named runs into the raid and instantly kills all the healers and causes a wipe. What can be done to change this, is carefully taking the mob under 50 percent within a small window of time so many seconds after the last death touched happened, and then the two conditions no longer line up with each other, and now there is no longer any "luck" involved with the encounter.

One last note, while I am not saying there is not anything that can happen on an encounter that isn't just absolutely just bad luck, just that it seems for every 99 times someone says something is bad luck out of a 100, it is nothing more than players not doing what is required to deal with something. There is still stuff like that interrupt debuff on Eirak, where a healer can just fail to cast a spell at a crucial time 5, 6 or even 7 times in a row and important players just die.

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:27 PM   #45
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I agree with the OP.  As a long time raider I have never seen raiding in such a poor state.  Slightly off topic but the gear progression also is very badly done / no thought whatsoever. The only reason I’m still around is my guild hasn’t imploded like many others.

The worst issues are the randomness of the new encounters, power regen with no regen gear, and the exact class stacking needed to win.  Requiring players to have alts to switch in&out is weaksauce.  It’s like the Devs just decided to have a random set of issues to throw at a raid with no thought as to how to play the game. I know making an encounter that’s challenging but not annoying is hard, but that is what SOE is supposed to do.

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:39 PM   #46
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Hennyo wrote:

Juggercap wrote:

Harder was poor wording.  Bad scripts don't take skill into account as much as scripts that require thought. They aren't 'hard' because they are difficult. They are 'hard' because they require a certain class setup and luck.

A thousand? That's like everyone who plays...I'm not even close to downing everything...and I do want endgame raids to be challenging long enough to keep me busy until new content is available...but only if it's difficult based on skill, not setup and luck.

This is a good example of a post where something needs some clarifying to help some players what is actually going on with these encounters.

First off, these encounters ARE based around exact setup guidelines that are quite strict, this part is a correct observation. The next part is about the luck, the luck really isn't there at all, it only about taking the correct steps to remove the luck from the encounter.

Here are a couple examples of things that seem like luck but they are not. Using the commanders as an example, they have a pulse that randomly stuns people for sort periods of time, and a red message that a tank has too joust, when the stun pulse lines up with the red message, most players would say I got screwed by bad luck and died there. This is an explanation about how this isn't luck, if you take the proper precautions, you can give the tank significant in combat run speed buffs, to help them get out of the red message much faster, you can also use things like control effect immunity skills right before a red message as well. Now from the tanks standpoint, there may be nothing that player can do a all within their personal power to deal with the situation and it may feel like 100 percent luck from their viewpoint, but that doesn't mean other players can't coordinate their own skills to help someone else deal with the "luck".

A simple second example would be on Berik, where he has both a death touch hate drop, and an ability that requires a tank goes and stands next to a healer, when the mob also can't get close to a healer or they instantly die. So what can happen is the death touch hate drop can happen while a tank that is holding the named has to run into the raid to stand on top of a healer, and then the named runs into the raid and instantly kills all the healers and causes a wipe. What can be done to change this, is carefully taking the mob under 50 percent within a small window of time so many seconds after the last death touched happened, and then the two conditions no longer line up with each other, and now there is no longer any "luck" involved with the encounter.

One last note, while I am not saying there is not anything that can happen on an encounter that isn't just absolutely just bad luck, just that it seems for every 99 times someone says something is bad luck out of a 100, it is nothing more than players not doing what is required to deal with something. There is still stuff like that interrupt debuff on Eirak, where a healer can just fail to cast a spell at a crucial time 5, 6 or even 7 times in a row and important players just die.

I probably should've gone with and/or...

I'm not in an optimized guild. We don't always have the option to build a raid of 24 perfect classes...or of the 24 characters/classes we'd prefer to use...or even have 24 on the couple raid nights a week.

It can come down to luck in these situations...and scripts shouldn't be so specific that it does.

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:41 PM   #47
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At this point though, I would leave the content the way it is. Future content, sure, make it abit more challenging with the scripts. Not "OHLOOKDEATHTOUCHLOL". Its not "hard" like I've seen a person here state, right now, with level 92 etc, its really not that bad. The encounters themselves lack flavor and are more boring than anything (some). SoE, don't bother, either your going to make it faceroll easy so all the guilds on every single server can 'experience" the content like with skyshrine ( horribad idea, just way too easy) or, you'll add insane mechanics that stop guilds from progressing. You'll add stuff that is impossible to mitigate and no amount of skill will fix just so you can "buy some time". I like it hard, I like the challenge. I don't think raiding is "hard", It is just annoying at times. PoW SHOULD be hard 100%, not annoying and impossible to do until you patch it. Give the skilled players something to do. GIVE ME CARPAL TUNNEL!

SoE- Make it so we have to bring 24 players that are on the top of their game. Not 24 players that have a certain ability we need to use to make it happen. Make it so there cannot be even ONE mistake but, put the content into the players hands. If they mess up and dont play their classes right and just cant work together or just general bads sure, wipe wipe. But, guilds shouldn't wipe because a mechanic is either broken/not working properly. Random is good, random can be challenging. Pulling encounter 5 times because its luck based is just ehh. Dont make it "easier" please, just have the future content you release not be the fail that skyshrine was.

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:54 PM   #48
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There is a difference between

"Hard"- something that requires thought to figure out eg. the flower-kicking and stances with Vilucidae that would fear folks (who did you send that night and why those classes/people?) on top of figuring out his stances and what he did when. The creative process that went into Rhoen Theer- how is the best way to do this, where shall we stand, how shall we pull him, who do we rez and who do we send when. Hard as in something creative; a puzzle to figure out.

Versus

"Hard"- raid-wide death touch on a timed red text that hits for 125% damage every 45 seconds- something you can only deal with if you can get through the difficulty of recruiting enough bards for a BD on the first one, swashies for an advanced warning, druids for a TShell, and inquis for equilibrium for a single mob, but not have them suck so bad that they aren't useful on any other kill.

There's a difference between "Who's the best person to have click this button out of the folks we have tonight so we can run this script?" versus "What's the perfect raid setup necessary for this mob?" There's also a difference between "What steps can we take to prevent the mob from fearing/stunning/stifling?" versus "Who should we bring in for Bob's spot since he's awesome at everything except clicking one button to keep the raid from exploding?"

Even if you DON'T raid, surely you can see the difference, right?

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Old 08-14-2012, 08:37 PM   #49
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Reducing the number of buff classes required would be a wonderful start to fixing raiding, swich it to one large 24 person group, make most of the buffs group wide, and make things like EV/TC/UT/Primal castable on more then just one person. Half the raid is normaly built up of people who just make other peoples parses better.

Incoming damage in its self has grown so large,and the curing so intense some times that some of the healers I used to play with who quit, would tell me its because theres never a moment to take a breth.

Incoming tank damge, this is getting out of control, everything seems to have MA, flurries, aoe , co-op[this is one of the worse things ever created] Wiping to boar because the adds spawned on the MT durring a red text is a terrible feeling, and that goes back into the RNG of fights now. These unmitigatble procs, or procs for avoiding the damage in the first place. Tanks who have been raiding for awhile, remember when HP has about how many hits you could take before the healer was hard pressed to play catch up? Nowadays its a stat that could just be called, Oneshot%, I either have the hp to not get one shotted, or get one shotted.  My hp bar either stays completly still {WArds and reactives} or it yo-yo's.

Red text-cure-terrible rng to make you hate life-mem wipes and blurs: thats most every fight in the game of current raiding. Theer,VS, vulcidae[butchered that] , there were fights that you wiped because you did something wrong some where not because the dice roll said you lose.

Meele/range imbalance.

Know whats more annoying then having to constantly be on the move and never have more then 10/15s to dps something before some new red text is going to kill us all. Watching the mages and rager never move, and never have to cut out a portion of their dps. Yes, there are ways around this, but alot of the times we just sit meele because its so much easier to just make 3 mage groups and have tanks stand around and wait for adds. I've got a meele attack, man, I miss using it. I miss when having the OT/MT fight it out for aggro was a viable means of survibility increase by letting the healers in the groups slack off for a moment and get some regen.

Heck, mezzers mezzing again wouldnt be to bad, and I aoe like theres no tommrow,  the raiding scene has boiled down so much into a DPS meta game, take boar, compare a 4 minute boar to a 20 minute boar, and thats not a hard encounter to begin with, unless the right people dont log in for some reason.

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Old 08-14-2012, 09:55 PM   #50
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List of things that can result in unpleasant experiences from personal opinion(some things are theoretical or I have seen happen to others and not me): 

Sevalak:  AoEs that have to be cured quickly or you get full group deathtouch or continuous power drain for like 15 secs both of which will set you behind on add DPS.  This combined with random knockbacks that can interrupt non-myth group cures.  Combined with fact if your raid isnt top5 or maybe even if it is you will barely squeeze through on DPS check on adds which means your healers cant just sit in a tucked corner but need to be sitting on those mobs @sses swinging away.  Overall though I kind of like this fight at least a lot more than say .. Tagrin.

Tagrin:  Does not get much dumber than this.  So many things can go wrong with random charms/blinks in raid.  I have seen tanks get blinked back into red text AoEs, tanks in general getting charmed, or important healers getting charmed (like when our SK is tanking 5 adds having either of his two healers getting charmed is a death sentence almost).  Also the DPS check is really high considering the number of tanks/healers/utility you need on this fight to minimize all the randomness from wiping your raid.  Even without the charm the fight would still be hard, the charm is just the cherry on top that makes a hard fight infuriating.

Eriak:  Have not done it much TBH but I hear its dumb as hell.

Berik:  Not bad but I kind of laugh everytime a MT healer standing at max range from their tanks gets hit by a knockback when adds spawn into range of beriks "lol I kill you" zone.  It can still be dealt with since one extra add usually isnt too bad.  It has caused us to wipe at like 10% though which resulted in a facepalm moment.  Rest of the fight isnt too bad and im not sure if the timing on bloodfist and the linked-blood stuff screwing over the raid is more our tanks fault or just bad mechanic overlap.

Anyways thats my experience on a few fights that I think have really random mechanics that make fairly highly tuned fights into infurating messes sometimes.

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Old 08-15-2012, 06:50 AM   #51
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Raiding isn't combat anymore, it's choreography. Modern raid play more resembles Simon Says than Dungeons and Dragons. And speaking of Dungeons and Dragons, there is a few decades worth of encounter-design wisdom that SOE has completely failed to acknowledge. A lot of the complaints people are voicing--incurable control effects, auto-fail conditions, prescribed class requirements--are all things that Dungeon Masters learned to avoid 20+ years ago.

The main problem is that the developers have made it their goal to make every expansion's raid content harder and more complex than the last, thinking that is what the players want. And indeed, players like a challenge, but the trick is that said challenge has to be just challenging enough, not too easy, not too hard. It appears that we've reached the point where content is just too hard to be fun anymore, and needs to be toned down.

What it really comes down to is Flow vs. Fiero, as described in this book. Raid encounters are too complex, which prevents the players from being able to reach a flow state, so the entire fight feels like a chore. At the end of it, you're so mentally exhausted, you don't really get the Fiero high because the entire experience was too unpleasant.

Bottom line, while I know none of the top end raiders want to give up their feelings of superiority, it just doesn't make sense to design so much content for such a small audience. Somebody upthread pointed out how there hasn't been much breadth of HM raid content in recent years, but when said content is exclusionary by design, SOE just can't afford to devote too many resources to it. People like to complain about catering to soloers and tradeskillers, but there are probably just as many of those players as there are HM raiders, so theoretically they should get just as much content.

Finally, I have observed over the years that EQ2 has pretty much split into two totally different games. You have the people who play "HM Raider", and the people who play "Heroic/EM Raider" and the two really don't interact much except during loot auctions. HM raid content is just too hard for the majority of players, and the loot from HM raids makes basically the entire rest of the game trivial and obsolete. This leaves both factions with a great deal of content they just don't get to enjoy. And the cause is simple mudflation--the various tiers of gear are just too far apart. I mean, look at some of the level 90 raid loot from SF that was missed by the upgrade script, and then look at gear of the same level out of PoW. How the heck did we go from A to B in 2 years?

With player DPS is increasing quadratically every expansion, the devs are quickly running out of ways to make encounters remain relevant for more than 6 months. They pretty much have to rely on cheap tricks and hoser mechanics, because balancing such outrageous attribute values is very likely beyond their abilities.

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Old 08-15-2012, 10:27 AM   #52
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I totally agree with the OP. At the same time I still want at least one or several encounters/xpac to have these difficulty based encounters so that only top guilds can have brag rights.

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Old 08-15-2012, 11:08 AM   #53
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Great post The Cheeseman. That book you quoted is incredibly thought provoking just reading a few pages on Flow and Fiero it makes me want to read the whole book when time permits. You are right though it has just gotten to be too much crap so that the whole Flow and Fiero concept isn't working in eq2 anymore. In fact it is working counter productive to retaining people in the game. I have often wondered why people would suddenly quit after beating a hard fight. Sometimes entire guilds would just fold up over night after getting one last hard progression kill in. Well the mystry is no more after reading the author's explanation because he gets it and not just a little bit either. He completely nailed it.

The citation from the book Reality Is Broken explains:

"Flow is considered a part of the science of happines but not all... It is more of a temporal state than a trait or condition of human functioning. While there are studies on how to prolong it, flow is not seen as something people can live within all the time.

Flow is exhilerating in the moment. It makes us feel energized. A major flow experience can improve our mood for hours, or even days, afterward. But because it's such a state of exteme engagement it eventually uses up our physical and mental resources.

We can't sustain flow indefinately-- as much as we may want to. That is why according to Keyes, human flourishing requires a more continious approach to well being. It can't just be flow all the time. We have to find ways to enjoy the world and relish life even when we are not opperating at our peak human potential."

Designing raid content to maximaixe flow even if good intentioned can be a problem. So basically when the dificulty flow reaches the point it depletes our physical and mental resources the game is Over for that individual or group. DoV HM difficulty has been consistantly depleting and hollowing out the player base because of this. They just keep putting harder and taller brick walls in front of us with no chance to enjoy our accomplishments. I won't dwell on the negetive because many have already experienced this first hand.

On the positive side of things a good example of managing flow and fiera correctly could be seen in Veeshan's Peak in RoK. You had two named that were easy followed by two difficult encounters Nexona and Druushk followed by more easy reward named. This was the top of the game because they were the gateway to class epic mythicals. These were pretty hard mobs in their day and having an epic Mythical early in the expansion actually ment something. It took my casual guild a couple of months to get them down but when we did it was epic. I remember my non-hard core guild keeping the raid going until 4am after downing Druushk so everyone could get their mythical that night. That never would have happened if they had placed another brick wall in front of us like DoV content has been doing.

I have been waiting years for SoE to make an encore to Veeshan's Peak but it has never happened.

You also make a great point about the mudflation. Ever more powerful gear in turn necessitates the creation of harder more difficult content. I will expand on this later but for now the flow of this post needs a break.

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Old 08-15-2012, 11:53 AM   #54
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@Atan, I know the Dev or any Red name will ever give acknowledgement of this thread. But this is more than a life or death topic for this game. The game is DIEING, it is hemorrhaging and this thread details it is frightening clarity. The nature of this thread, I think, Demands response in a huge way from the Development team. Not just a "We are looking into this" Post, but a new and open dialog by the Dev Team and the player base to see what if anything can be done to recover the life of the game. I don’t expect it though.
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:14 PM   #55
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Novusod wrote:

The citation from the book Reality Is Broken explains:

"We can't sustain flow indefinately-- as much as we may want to. That is why according to Keyes, human flourishing requires a more continious approach to well being. It can't just be flow all the time. We have to find ways to enjoy the world and relish life even when we are not opperating at our peak human potential."

Designing raid content to maximaixe flow even if good intentioned can be a problem. So basically when the dificulty flow reaches the point it depletes our physical and mental resources the game is Over for that individual or group. DoV HM difficulty has been consistantly depleting and hollowing out the player base because of this. They just keep putting harder and taller brick walls in front of us with no chance to enjoy our accomplishments. I won't dwell on the negetive because many have already experienced this first hand.

I think they probably just lack/aren't willing to allocate the resources to develop content fast enough to design encounters to be fair and challenging.  Because if they're fair then guilds will progress faster than SOE intends to put out content.  So they leave stuff broken or apply these mechanics to slow us down.  I like the idea of a tougher mob followed by one or two easier ones.  There was a bit of that in earlier DoV/Drunder.  Plane of War there's no break after Berik.  Probably just cause they don't have enough content to include any non-stressful mobs.

I definitely don't have the same feeling on a progression kill anymore.  It's more relief really than elation.  Vallon felt good cause we got it before Skyshrine.  Eriak felt good (but I actually think that's a fun fight).  Sevalak was okay.  The rest were just a relief to be past them.

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Old 08-15-2012, 12:20 PM   #56
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[email protected] wrote:

The game is DIEING, it is hemorrhaging and this thread details it is frightening clarity.

I think what this thread shows is that they still have a playerbase that CARES.  This is the game we want to play.  People don't want to leave, they relent and leave when things just don't improve.  This next expansion though likely is a make or break opportunity as far as raiding goes.

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Old 08-15-2012, 12:36 PM   #57
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[email protected] wrote:

@Atan, I know the Dev or any Red name will ever give acknowledgement of this thread. But this is more than a life or death topic for this game. The game is DIEING, it is hemorrhaging and this thread details it is frightening clarity. The nature of this thread, I think, Demands response in a huge way from the Development team. Not just a "We are looking into this" Post, but a new and open dialog by the Dev Team and the player base to see what if anything can be done to recover the life of the game. I don’t expect it though.

This will never happen. They wouldn't have that dialogue with their special NDA covered player group, they certainly wont have it here.

This issue overall though is a double edged sword.  I think we as players share some responsability to where things are today.  Let me explain.

For years those in the top 20-50 guilds have complained about how fast content was consumed.  That the expansion was 'done' in 4-6 weeks with nothing much to do till 11 months later.  I'm not going to argue the validity of those complaints, but if you look thru the history of these forums, there have been many, many posts and similar sentiments posted.   

I think thats the nature of MMO development, where in order to make something the appropriate challenge for the middle of the road, the best and fastest players will consume it all in a much shorter period of time.  

I think SoE looked at our complaints and decided they'd ratchet dificulty way up, intentionally leave things basically broken and unkillable and slowly 'dish out' the content to us as they saw fit to make the content stream appear longer than it is.  There can certainly be a lot of arguement about this aproach and how its much worse than how it was before, and I'll agree with most of those arguements.

I think you really have a case where the producer wanted to brag that the game is challenging and show that it takes players a significant amount of time to progress thru it.  The result is we get a lot of artificial gates (slow fixes and long delays to make things even killable), and a lot of mechanical gates (requiring absurd raid builds somewhat unique to each encounter), along with excessively high skill barrier of entry.

I agree the game has taken a turn for the worse with these decisions.   

As a guild/raid leader for the past 15ish years, there is a question I ask myself, my officers, and my players on a regular basis.  That question is, "are we having fun?".  And honestly thats the question we as players need to ask and answer, and developers, designers, and producers need to ask the similar question, "but is it fun?".

Thats the problem we've run into, the amount of 'fun' to be had is dwindling when the primary challenge is can you log this many of X classes and this many of Y classes all with a proficiency of Z to do the next mob?  If we can't do that tonight, we have to skip this mob or if he's in the way of others we simply have to quit and come back another night.   

The game has been going this way for a long time.  Back in TSO I made passionate arguements to the game developers that the raid mechanics were not challenging us as players, it was challenging our rosters to bring the right combination of healers every night.  At that time, no matter how talented my druids were, the number of inquisitors and shamans I could field was the primary gauge of how successful my raid would be that night (keep in mind druids changed alot since those days and are much more of an asset now than then).

But as I see it, they've just continued down the path of adding difficulty by adding more 'roster checks' as I call them.  You can make an arguement that all the additional powers they've given classes meant that in order to continue to add dificulty they had to add challenges that are ever more difficult to overcome.   Thats a fine arguement to make, but remember the question I pose, "but is it fun?".

When the game stops being fun, players leave, and thats what we've been seeing.  As a leader, there are a great many things I've had to change about my guild in order to continue to deliver an experience that is 'fun' for our players.  For one example, in the past year we added a 2nd more casual raidforce, and I fully admit a large reason for doing so was to have an incubator to develop skilled players for our hardcore force as well as having a larger pool of players, classes, and geared toons to draw on for these 'roster checks' that have become ever more increasingly difficult to overcome.  There are of course many other benefits to that decision, as well as much more 'work' involved in supporting it, and the game direction is no small contributing factor to why we choose to go down that path.

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Old 08-15-2012, 01:10 PM   #58
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My experience is as follows: I started playing in TSO with my husband. I started with my Fury and his Monk. With some help from some friends we were able to gain our Mythicals. I enjoyed playing my Fury very much. We did not raid very much at that time. We did not have ACT. I was having fun playing my Fury and I could keep my husband's Monk alive or keep a group alive. This was all that mattered.

Then SF came out and we joined a raid alliance. I tried as hard as I could on my Fury but ACT said my healing wasn't up to Par. Never mind that the group was surviving and most nights I was paired with a Msytic. Many nights I thought about quitting because I hated ACT. Then our Raid force said they needed a Troubador. I had a level Fifty-something Trouby at the time so I said if they helped me level her I'd switch. A week or two later I was on my Troubador with little AA but she was 90. What I liked about my new role was it didn't matter what ACT said I did. No one expected me to parse very high since I was a Bard all that mattered was I buffed.

Next came DOV. Our Raid Force fell apart after our server was merged and game mechanics changed. I was excited as I talked to npcs who mentioned the freeing of Lucan D'lere which I did and the defeat of Rhoen Theer which I did (One Rune but still). It made me feel a part of the story. I started the Fallen Swords quest and my husband and I joined a new guild. It was fun because we were helping to save the world according to the quest. However a new mechanic was introduced the Debuff. In regular DoV it didn't matter but in HM bad things happened when the de-buff was required, It was simple enough to set up a rotation, but it was annoying that anytime we received a new recruit we had to take them back through the x2. Then all Drunder requires the thing.

SS came out and at the same time it was announced by npcs that someone had defeated Rallos Zek... now if anyone in the world had actually done it at this point I would have been fine as I am a more casual raider, but no one had. I ran the access questline and well because people wanted to get it done I was forced to skim the story dialogue and from what I can tell we're going back in time to kill things and having no effect what-so-ever. My favorite part about raiding is gone. I am no longer a part of the story and nothing matters. I hate HM Drunder. I'm bored with the doing the same thing over and over and over again. My guild has cleared EM SS (as many noted not hard at all) The only reasons I still raid now is because without me they may not be able to proceed. I am the only troubador in my Raid Force there are 2-3 Dirges (2 consistent we're recruiting a 3rd) We have 2 Illusionists and 1 Coercer trying to find a 2nd Coercer. I enjoy playing utility but the raids shouldn't be so dependent on whether I'm there or not. I was reflecting on what if I had stuck it out with my Fury 2 years ago where would I be? The answer is I would no longer be playing. I can almost hear the Warden who solo heals my group crying during the first named in Sullons when we have five healers. I also run dkp now. In short I feel obligated to stay. It's no longer fun but to progress they need me.... this is wrong.

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Old 08-15-2012, 01:46 PM   #59
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Thank you OP.  Very good post and the fact that it was made from someone in the only guild to have cleared PoW gives it alot of credence.  I think its something that everyone DEV and Players alike should take seriously.

As I see it......SOE over the years ....and I am going as far back as EQ1 that I played for 6 years has lost the ability to tell the difference between challange and frustration.   While both can achieve the same goal....make things 'hard'......only the former can ever be called fun.

When I look at a Raid encounter today I honestly thing they simply put little pieces of paper with the various dots, memwipes, stifles, stuns, yada yada into a a bucket and pulled out 3 or 4 to use on the encounter.

As others have stated....there is nothing more that I find annoying and frustrating than being taken out of the fight without any method...either via planning, skill or whatever to get out of it....its just stand there and wait for it to be over.....only to have mabe 12sec to do anything before it all happens again.

I think a even bigger problem and one that is probably a combinitation of the things the OP mentioned and the low game population is that there is a rather large hole in what I call  'tiers' of raid guilds.  Can only speak about myself and my sever but we have one guild that I believe is just one short of clearing PoW....another that has done a few in PoW then......nada......nada.......nada............... ........guilds still struggling with EM SS and that have best taken a few shots at PoW boar, maybe 1 SS HM, and maybe 1 or 2 from Drunder HM.

There are alot of players like myself that are bored to tears with farming EM SS.....are ready for the next step yet are stuck in guilds that for whatever reason are not able to or willing to move on and are content gearing up armies of useless alts with EM SS gear for the remainder of the expansion.   In previous games and even EQ2 not too long ago ...I would simply go looking for a guild with roster openings that was more in line with where I was progression wise....that is becoming harder and harder to do in EQ2 because of the large gaps that exist.    So the only thing left is to stop playing.....which only makes the job of larger higher tier guilds backfilling or recruiting even harder.

Again,  the OP made a very good post ...one that brings out the truth but sadly one that i think SOE is not just unwilling to read but most likely unable to understand.

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Old 08-15-2012, 04:39 PM   #60
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oh dont worry aparntly there is new raid content comming in sept

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