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Old 08-03-2012, 09:32 AM   #151
Xaxtionlorex

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Haciv, you post parses from 1 group zones doing the EM fights, that data reallllly isn't usefull for anything,post raid parses to show its broken. That said.

Issues I've found in HM drunder/Pow.

1. I can still tank, fix that.

2.Threat, make it canncel the threat from all abilities, don't make it dehates[maybe on taunts] I'm more then happy to work on my threat from my dps, but having to manage that, + the threat production, Chaos cloud still drops 120k+ threat on hit plus the threat on each dot tick.

3.50% damage taken, scrap it. Read the rest of this before you freak it.

The problem with the above is 50% of EVERYTHNG, makes reckless junk with out a healer babysitting you, aoe's,  dots, curses, make raiding in this stance backwards.  If you want to make this stance useful, it needs to be +50% damage taken from MELEE attacks. Testing it out in PoW, the boars big hit would some times just smash me through 1 blood letter, a blood siphon, and wards, because of how much damage I was taking.

4. Tank cool downs, alot of them are able to make us tank through things we shouldnt be able to [untill theres magic damage, then well,] reckless should make the following changes as well.

-Drops users block chance to 0%

-Drops users parry to 5%

-Drops Riposte to 5%

-Changes how tank cool downs work, I can only speak from the SK/crusader side of this, warriors/bruisers pitch in.

Shadow Knights Furor.

-100% riposte

-4-5k hate proc

-20% spell damage

Shadow knights Furor ,in reckless.

+20% spell damage

+some sort of damage proc [scales with CB and PoT [Super low number to bring it to a reasonable level while in reck]

+10% chance to decrease threat postion by 1 on hostile spell cast.

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Old 08-03-2012, 11:41 AM   #152
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Xaxtionlorex wrote:

-Changes how tank cool downs work, I can only speak from the SK/crusader side of this, warriors/bruisers pitch in.

The issue is stoneskins block all damage, so well, I can survive the boar just fine as an example.  The entire stance should just be scrapped, or if anything replaced with a utility stance.

Otherwise, it requires way too much tailoring to each class to both make it useful, and make it so you can't tank in it.

As stated when this idea was announced, its the wrong idea, its not needed, and the detrimental portions of it are too easily bypassed.

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Old 08-03-2012, 11:43 AM   #153
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Hey lets remember not all tanks in this game Raid and some even group very little so this stance works good for them.

It has brought fun back to tanks like that (  like my SK ) he has not been played for awhile .

So tweek it so it still works but dont kill it right out Soe. ( I hope you can do it right)

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Old 08-03-2012, 11:46 AM   #154
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It dosen't need alot of tailoring, it just needs to disable the not dying portion of abilites, and lock out stone skins cast by the fighter,  my biggest issue with the +50 taken from all is how baddly we eat up wards,on one boar kill i had so much more damage taken,and healing recived, because of this ward eating.

Bad design is bad, yes, but we gotta deal with it, so lets atleast make it work.

They didnt' do enough testing and it isn't going any where, so the best we can do is fix it.

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Old 08-03-2012, 01:18 PM   #155
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As I see it, a raiding monk, there are 2 things that need to happen to make Reckless balanced better. 1. Remove all Block and only block when in reckless. 2. All Snaps to - positions, except say maybe Rescue. Getting and holding agro in Reckless needs to be harder. I think with just these 2 additions it would give all tanks the same penalties. this though does not address that Reckless does not benefit all tanks that same.
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Old 08-03-2012, 01:42 PM   #156
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Xaxtionlorex wrote:

Haciv, you post parses from 1 group zones doing the EM fights, that data reallllly isn't usefull for anything,post raid parses to show its broken. That said.

Yeah Vicah, you don't raid so you and your opinion don't matter.  Right?

 madsadbad, etc.

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Old 08-03-2012, 01:59 PM   #157
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[email protected] wrote:

*Please do not quote forum violations*

PST Permafrost.Gaarysal, TBH.

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Old 08-03-2012, 02:06 PM   #158
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Xaxtionlorex wrote:

Haciv, you post parses from 1 group zones doing the EM fights, that data reallllly isn't usefull for anything,post raid parses to show its broken. That said.

 as havciv has stated he no longer raids and has made valid points imho rember this game not all about raiding.

Issues I've found in HM drunder/Pow.

1. I can still tank, fix that.

agree

2.Threat, make it canncel the threat from all abilities, don't make it dehates[maybe on taunts] I'm more then happy to work on my threat from my dps, but having to manage that, + the threat production, Chaos cloud still drops 120k+ threat on hit plus the threat on each dot tick.

3.50% damage taken, scrap it. Read the rest of this before you freak it.

The problem with the above is 50% of EVERYTHNG, makes reckless junk with out a healer babysitting you, aoe's,  dots, curses, make raiding in this stance backwards.  If you want to make this stance useful, it needs to be +50% damage taken from MELEE attacks. Testing it out in PoW, the boars big hit would some times just smash me through 1 blood letter, a blood siphon, and wards, because of how much damage I was taking.

thats the point of the  pentality to make it where your squishy like a dps. 

4. Tank cool downs, alot of them are able to make us tank through things we shouldnt be able to [untill theres magic damage, then well,] reckless should make the following changes as well.

-Drops users block chance to 0%

-Drops users parry to 5%

-Drops Riposte to 5%

-Changes how tank cool downs work, I can only speak from the SK/crusader side of this, warriors/bruisers pitch in.

Shadow Knights Furor.

-100% riposte

-4-5k hate proc

-20% spell damage

 agree

Shadow knights Furor ,in reckless.

+20% spell damage

20% spell damage is Over kill your already at double potency + 50

+some sort of damage proc [scales with CB and PoT [Super low number to bring it to a reasonable level while in reck]

adding fuel to the fire no thanx

+10% chance to decrease threat postion by 1 on hostile spell cast.

this would be op see your own post about aboput a reckless tank should be ableto handle there own hate while dpsing.

one change id like to see.. while in reckless and potncy adding buffs Ie EV  that are not that of you own can not be applied to the warrior/sk/brawler respectly. but as well all know trhe odds of that happing would be slim to nine

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Old 08-03-2012, 02:59 PM   #159
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Haciv wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

*Please do not quote forum violations*

PST Permafrost.Gaarysal, TBH.

Tell him to app.

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Old 08-03-2012, 03:25 PM   #160
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Xaxtionlorex wrote:

Haciv, you post parses from 1 group zones doing the EM fights, that data reallllly isn't usefull for anything,post raid parses to show its broken. That said.

Ya see, here's the problem.  I'll show you a raid parse in just a moment BUT... you're going to say it doesn't matter and that's cool because it's the new trend with everyone.

I've now come to the conclusion everyone thinks that if a Fighter has the potential to top the DPS, then the fight doesn't matter.  As Parable had previously outlined in the other Recklessness thread, almost the entire game doesn't matter, only a handful of really hard mobs matter right now to the majority of the people posting (and in a few months those mobs probably wont matter either).  As a result of the above, I've also come to the conclusion that there must be the perception that Mage and Scout DPS must only be useful on some HM named nowadays.  That again, poses the question of... what's the point of a DPS class for 95%+ of the entire game when a Tank class can DPS better or equally well as a Mage or Scout?

Now, this is where I come from.  I come from a mindset where pretty much EVERYTHING matters.  If I'm in raid, I want to top the trash, the named, and the ZW's.  If I'm in a group, I want to top the trash, the named, and the ZW's.  If I'm doing something solo, I want to be the first to do it.  Sure some content is trivial but to me that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter, I want to be tops.  I dominated my entire server in RoK, TSO, SF, and the start of DoV. Call it competitiveness or call it OCD, that's my mindset.  Anyone who has raided or grouped with me, knows that I give it my all when it comes to DPS because I always want to be #1.

The problem I have now is, equally buffed and geared, some Fighter classes are equally capable of doing my sole job yet I am not equally capable of doing anyone else's job.  Mages are the only classes with no stance to boost an aspect of their character.  Scouts might as well have no alternate stance, as their defensive stance is completely useless.  There needs to be a tradeoff somewhere.  If fighters are able to Scout and Mage DPS then (as asked in my other thread), what is the point of a DPS class for all the content that "doesn't matter"?  The answer is that there is no point.  If you're currently playing a Pred, Rogue, Sorc, or Summoner you are better of deleting your character and rerolling a SK at this point.  Not only will you be able to DPS like you were on your DPS class toon but you'll also have the ability to tank the stuff that "does matter".

So... here's the only raid parse that I have.  I'm sure it's completely invalid and it shows nothing more than how big of a noob I am and how bad I am.  For context though, our group was invited to be a 4th group in a UD / Sevalak raid along with a couple other people to fill in some spots.  Myself and Gaarysal were in the same group (Inq, Mystic, Troub, Brig, Lock, SK).  I had UT and Bolster, Gaarysal had Link from an out of group Coercer and nothing else.  Other groups were properly setup with support classes.  It was the first current tier x4 raid I had done in over 10 months.

This data is fairly consistent with the data I have pulled from the Heroic zones.  Gaarysal was roughly within 10% of me, when I had the buffs.  I believe that if we were to run the same zone with the same setup, if the buffs were on him that he would then beat me by a larger margin than I beat him by.  So, again... Vicah was buffed and Gaarysal was not and that is how close the margin was.  IMHO, if Gaarysal (the SK) had UT and Bolster over Vicah (the Warlock) that the overall raid DPS would of been higher.   That is one of the fundamental problems I see with Recklessness stance.

So... how about this.  I've shown parses in this thread and the other that I started.  Instead of me showing how OP Recklessness stance is and having people call me bad, how about all the people that say Recklessness is NOT OP show their parses so that I can call all the Fighters bad.

TLDR, I'm a scrub and like wasting people's time by reading my worthless experiences.

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Old 08-03-2012, 03:51 PM   #161
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haciv,

I think your post is actually quite good and illustrates the problem where it will be observed most.   That parse is very par for casual raid forces who would be motivated to use extra tanks in rackless stance to begin with.  And as you pointed out, that enables tanks of similar gear playstyle to parse way outside what the rest of the raid is capable of.

Considering these are the very raid forces reckless was put in for, it is relevant to the discussion, even if the numbers are not relevant to other posters in this thread.

Raiding hardcore, casual, and in pugs, those are numbers I see in non hardcore raids.   In our hardcore raid that SK would run 4-500k but there would be 4 t1 dps well ahead of him.

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Old 08-03-2012, 04:09 PM   #162
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The bad get mad.

We have a new guild rule.  No Recklessness on named mobs due to how squishy tanks are.

We also have dirges complaining about all the rezzing they are doing now with how easily Fighters in Recklessness die to simple AEs.

It used to be the trigger happy wizard that died constantly.  Now it is the Crusaders in a mage group since agro is high with no means to drop it and it is hard for a single healer to keep up with the amount of incoming damage.

Vicah, prior to DoV when Fighters were neutered it would be completely normal for the Fighters tanking to be at the same spot in the parse.  I can probably pull up parses from KoS having the Zerker tank and top the parse with their temps.  DoV was a mess at launch and now they are giving back to Fighters to put them back to where they were at the cost of some more survivability.

The stance is unique in that it provides different types of benefits to different Fighters as well.  Crusaders and Brawlers get the most benefit from it.  Brawlers have dehate abilities they can use to help keep their agro under control.  Plate tanks can utilize a shield instead to help keep them alive since they are agro junkies.  Some Fighters have more temps that are up more often to keep them going while in Recklessness.  And in the case of a Guard probably not the best to utilize in Recklessness...but a Guard in raid is going to be tanking while the Fighters in the non-tanking set up groups are going to be the ones going Recklessness.  Crusaders in mage type groups.  Brawlers in melee type groups.  The Fighter I find missing out is Zerkers that don't see as much benefit and due to out dated mechanics they simply are lacking.

Couple months will pass and everybody will be completely used to the idea of Fighters actually doing decent DPS on easy content and nobody will even talk about it.

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Old 08-03-2012, 04:12 PM   #163
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Bruener wrote:

The bad get mad.

We have a new guild rule.  No Recklessness on named mobs due to how squishy tanks are.

We also have dirges complaining about all the rezzing they are doing now with how easily Fighters in Recklessness die to simple AEs.

It used to be the trigger happy wizard that died constantly.  Now it is the Crusaders in a mage group since agro is high with no means to drop it and it is hard for a single healer to keep up with the amount of incoming damage.

Vicah, prior to DoV when Fighters were neutered it would be completely normal for the Fighters tanking to be at the same spot in the parse.  I can probably pull up parses from KoS having the Zerker tank and top the parse with their temps.  DoV was a mess at launch and now they are giving back to Fighters to put them back to where they were at the cost of some more survivability.

The stance is unique in that it provides different types of benefits to different Fighters as well.  Crusaders and Brawlers get the most benefit from it.  Brawlers have dehate abilities they can use to help keep their agro under control.  Plate tanks can utilize a shield instead to help keep them alive since they are agro junkies.  Some Fighters have more temps that are up more often to keep them going while in Recklessness.  And in the case of a Guard probably not the best to utilize in Recklessness...but a Guard in raid is going to be tanking while the Fighters in the non-tanking set up groups are going to be the ones going Recklessness.  Crusaders in mage type groups.  Brawlers in melee type groups.  The Fighter I find missing out is Zerkers that don't see as much benefit and due to out dated mechanics they simply are lacking.

Couple months will pass and everybody will be completely used to the idea of Fighters actually doing decent DPS on easy content and nobody will even talk about it.

This

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Old 08-03-2012, 05:04 PM   #164
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Hi everyone,

There was a good amount of constructive feedback present in this thread, which I have passed on to the appropriate parties.

However, it seems like the conversation has run its course, so I'm going to lock the thread. Also, here's a friendly reminder to take a look at our forum guidelines. Let's keep the conversation productive. 

~Dexella

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