It's true, Monks can't tank - Page 3

Gaige · 01-25-2005, 03:19 PM

Mamaseeta wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Mamaseeta wrote:
You are falling victom of binary thinking, open your mind. Just because you have special attacks does not mean you cannot do HO's just because you do HO's does not man you cannot do your spical attacks. You can do your 400 point attack *and* do HO, I do I cycle threw 10 spical attacks and work HOs.

Again the people who work HO's say they work very well, the people unwilling to work it out say they suck.

Interesting

I have talked to people who have made them work and been in groups where they work, and they work good.

Back to the start however, people who say there class is not ballanced and who refuse to use all there abilites, have no arguement.

Regardless of if you like HOs or not, that's fine.

But to say someones class is balanced because of an HO is not fine, because a class' HO has nothing to do with their normal attacks or special abilities, and its those attacks and abilities that need to be balanced.

Why?

Because HOs are by ARCHETYPE. That means that any dirge/ranger/assassin/etc can do them. Any scout can do them. So while a dirge may be unbalanced when compared to the other 23 subclasses just because they get access to an HO that any scout can do doesn't make them balanced.

How is this a hard concept to grasp?

I am not saying a class is ballanced because of HOs I am saying that if you claim a class is unballanced when they refuse to use HOs is unfounded, you are not using all your abilites and saying your broke, its like saying Monks are broke, we cannot take dammage yet you still have your AQ armor when your 40s.

*sigh*

Nevermind you refuse to understand, maybe you can't grasp the concept.

HOs are archtype based, everything you are comparing them to are subclass based.

When talking about subclass balance you can't use something that is dependent upon archtype, as all subclasses of a particular archtype get access to it.

Gaige · 01-25-2005, 03:21 PM

Mamaseeta wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Mamaseeta wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Mamaseeta wrote:
In the 30s the dirge HOs have hit up to 400, why at 50 are they doing 70?

As posted before the people who get HOs to work say they work very well.

In the 30s I had one skill that could do up to 400 damage.

You did not answer my question

Because it depends on the HO. I have two solo HO's that still hit between 70 and 100 damage.

The point is an HO is NOT a spell/combat art for a given class. Its seperate and to try to factor in HO damage when comparing classes isn't rational.

Again you did not answer my question.

Your solo HO may do 100 points however group with a rogue and compleate Swindlers gift and now all your special attacks are doing 10% more damamge, in addition to the huge aggro boost, if I compleated swindlers gift I could pull a mob from a pre fix zerker. Second the commmon HO chain is a 200-300 point dd at level 30, and the rare hits up to 500. This is an ability usabel every 10 seconds, the high damamge monk kicks are on a 30 second timer, three attacks at 200 outdamamged your 400 point attack, that however is hitting for 440 btw. In addition to the damamge they can change the wheel, really key when looking for a specific ability, like the slow proc buff or the healing proc buff that the priests classes have. Yes they take some extra work to compleate, but refusing to use these abilites and saying there class is broke, is unfounded. Rouge classes have very powerfull and I allways want one in my group.

As for them being ballanced I dont know, however you will ahve to show me proof there not, and I will reject any DPS claims without the use of HOs, HOs work and work well.

That is the reason no one bothers talking to you on this forum. You always ask for proof and can't provide any and you set up ridiculous rules in order for something to be proven.

HOs are chump change in the high end game. Period. To try to use something based on archtype as a reinforcement of subclass balance shows your lack of understanding of fundamental game systems.

ilikeladi · 01-25-2005, 04:55 PM

"That is the reason no one bothers talking to you on this forum. You always ask for proof and can't provide any and you set up ridiculous rules in order for something to be proven.

HOs are chump change in the high end game. Period. To try to use something based on archtype as a reinforcement of subclass balance shows your lack of understanding of fundamental game systems." ---Gage

Wow you really laid a pipe in her as.s with that comment.

This is one of the first things i agree with Gage on about something. HOs take fast effort to even pull off, get interuppted to much in the first place and when you do get them to work ... well you would have done more damage without worrying about doing a HO in the first place.

Bi · 01-25-2005, 05:54 PM

personally my bard pulls off HOs far quicker than any of my other toons (wiz, bruiser, cleric) although this is low lvl; I'm sure the HO's dont become any quicker.I can pull off ringing blow (adds about 5-6x my normal damage) at least once, usually more out of every 3 tries. If I fail, dirty tricks is doing physical/ac impairment; so its useful to have there anyway..I've grouped blue 2ups with no healer in 3man groups doing HO's for extra damage. Although I admit my personal DPS werent great (21wiz at the time) but I was able to land my main nuke as part of the HO, cast my 2 main dots, and slip in 1-2 other nukes during this time as well. We learnt to base our attacks around a HO, and although eventually it became repetitive and we left, it was an excellent way of soloing something that we wouldnt be able to otherwise.3 Man HO fighter, mage, scout.tbh I think HO's work well, I can't speak for the later levels, but in the mid levels I think they are well worth the effort, given a smallish group. with 4-6 people it becomes a bit too difficult unless you have more than 1 of your archetype in the group

GangsterFi · 01-25-2005, 08:49 PM

The truth is level 40+ rogues DPS is not that good because level 40+ poisions are currently busted. When they are fixed, they will out DPS monks no problem.

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 09:04 PM

Gage-Mikel wrote:
Mamaseeta wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Mamaseeta wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Mamaseeta wrote:
In the 30s the dirge HOs have hit up to 400, why at 50 are they doing 70?

As posted before the people who get HOs to work say they work very well.
In the 30s I had one skill that could do up to 400 damage.

You did not answer my question
Because it depends on the HO. I have two solo HO's that still hit between 70 and 100 damage.
The point is an HO is NOT a spell/combat art for a given class. Its seperate and to try to factor in HO damage when comparing classes isn't rational.

Again you did not answer my question.

Your solo HO may do 100 points however group with a rogue and compleate Swindlers gift and now all your special attacks are doing 10% more damamge, in addition to the huge aggro boost, if I compleated swindlers gift I could pull a mob from a pre fix zerker. Second the commmon HO chain is a 200-300 point dd at level 30, and the rare hits up to 500. This is an ability usabel every 10 seconds, the high damamge monk kicks are on a 30 second timer, three attacks at 200 outdamamged your 400 point attack, that however is hitting for 440 btw. In addition to the damamge they can change the wheel, really key when looking for a specific ability, like the slow proc buff or the healing proc buff that the priests classes have. Yes they take some extra work to compleate, but refusing to use these abilites and saying there class is broke, is unfounded. Rouge classes have very powerfull and I allways want one in my group.

As for them being ballanced I dont know, however you will ahve to show me proof there not, and I will reject any DPS claims without the use of HOs, HOs work and work well.
That is the reason no one bothers talking to you on this forum. You always ask for proof and can't provide any and you set up ridiculous rules in order for something to be proven.

HOs are chump change in the high end game. Period. To try to use something based on archtype as a reinforcement of subclass balance shows your lack of understanding of fundamental game systems.

heheyou still have not answered the question. no rules just answer the question.

Gaige · 01-25-2005, 10:49 PM

Mamaseeta wrote:

No, rouges claim they dont do enough damamge, yet a lot of there damamge comes from HOs, sence most refuse to use HOs because they believe they suck, they are not doing dammage because they refuse to do one of there abilities is not the fault of SOE ballancing issues. HOs augment classes abilites, priest's HOs allow them to heal better, mage and rogue HOs do the dammage.

HOs sucking is the same misconception as monks cannot tank.

Mamaseeta wrote:
In reguards to swashbuckler dammage, I have found that fiew people do HOs in a group, the roughe types can do quite a bit more damamge in addition to manipulating the wheel.

Yes I did Mama. Just because it isn't the answer you wanted doesn't mean I didn't provide it.

You relate swashbuckler damage (a subclass) to HOs (based on archtype) and then claim that rouge types do quite a bit more damage when manipulating the wheel (also archtype; ie: any scout can perform this function).

So lets say all swashbuckler abilities are working as intended and they aren't suffering any broken abilities and their DPS is scaled by the Devs not only against the other subclasses but also to the mobs throughout the levels.

Then lets say a brigand has a few broken damage doing abilites and from 30 to 40 their DPS isn't quite balanced.

So of course the brigands would be posting in regards to this imbalance. A subclass imbalance.

You are saying that the brigands claims are unfounded because they of course can perform SCOUT heroic opportunities.

The fatal flaw in your logic is that the perfectly balanced swashbuckler can ALSO do all of the same HOs and wheel manipulation as the brigand. Therefore because the HOs are based at the lowest level (archtype) they cannot be used when discussing subclass balance.

Of course this is hypothetical, but the point still stands.

You always come in saying "omg proof" and then you try to "prove" your own theories with flawed logic.

If you cannot understand that HOs are broken and are getting fixed; or the fact that they are based on archtype and have nothing to do with subclass balance then you'll never accept anyone's proof because the logic we all use to back up our opinion will never make sense to you.

Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 01-25-2005 09:54 AM

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 11:01 PM

I asked actually two questions, that you seem not to be able to answer.1, Can you quote me the thread where I called people names?2, at 30 HOs do 400 points of dammage why at 50 are they now doing 70?

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 11:05 PM

Gage-Mikel wrote:
Mamaseeta wrote:

No, rouges claim they dont do enough damamge, yet a lot of there damamge comes from HOs, sence most refuse to use HOs because they believe they suck, they are not doing dammage because they refuse to do one of there abilities is not the fault of SOE ballancing issues. HOs augment classes abilites, priest's HOs allow them to heal better, mage and rogue HOs do the dammage.

HOs sucking is the same misconception as monks cannot tank.

Mamaseeta wrote:
In reguards to swashbuckler dammage, I have found that fiew people do HOs in a group, the roughe types can do quite a bit more damamge in addition to manipulating the wheel.
Yes I did Mama. Just because it isn't the answer you wanted doesn't mean I didn't provide it.
You relate swashbuckler damage (a subclass) to HOs (based on archtype) and then claim that rouge types do quite a bit more damage when manipulating the wheel (also archtype; ie: any scout can perform this function).
So lets say all swashbuckler abilities are working as intended and they aren't suffering any broken abilities and their DPS is scaled by the Devs not only against the other subclasses but also to the mobs throughout the levels.

Then lets say a brigand has a few broken damage doing abilites and from 30 to 40 their DPS isn't quite balanced.

So of course the brigands would be posting in regards to this imbalance. A subclass imbalance.

You are saying that the brigands claims are unfounded because they of course can perform SCOUT heroic opportunities.

The fatal flaw in your logic is that the perfectly balanced swashbuckler can ALSO do all of the same HOs and wheel manipulation as the brigand. Therefore because the HOs are based at the lowest level (archtype) they cannot be used when discussing subclass balance.

Of course this is hypothetical, but the point still stands.

You always come in saying "omg proof" and then you try to "prove" your own theories with flawed logic.

If you cannot understand that HOs are broken and are getting fixed; or the fact that they are based on archtype and have nothing to do with subclass balance then you'll never accept anyone's proof because the logic we all use to back up our opinion will never make sense to you.

Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 01-25-2005 09:54 AM

You apperently misreading my posts, I am saying that people who say that there class is broken and refuse to use of of there abilites, has no arguement. If they are using all there abilited and still can show something broken, then they have an arguement.

Gaige · 01-25-2005, 11:11 PM

Mamaseeta wrote:
I asked actually two questions, that you seem not to be able to answer.
1, Can you quote me the thread where I called people names?
2, at 30 HOs do 400 points of dammage why at 50 are they now doing 70?

1) Nope couldn't find one, I've been known to be wrong before.

2) Read my statement in context. You said "dirges have a 400pt HO at 30" I said "I've seen lvl 50 HOs (like my own) hit for only 70". I never said that the specific SCOUT (remember there isn't a dirge HO) hits for 70 @ 50.

Gaige · 01-25-2005, 11:11 PM

Mamaseeta wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Mamaseeta wrote:

No, rouges claim they dont do enough damamge, yet a lot of there damamge comes from HOs, sence most refuse to use HOs because they believe they suck, they are not doing dammage because they refuse to do one of there abilities is not the fault of SOE ballancing issues. HOs augment classes abilites, priest's HOs allow them to heal better, mage and rogue HOs do the dammage.

HOs sucking is the same misconception as monks cannot tank.

Mamaseeta wrote:
In reguards to swashbuckler dammage, I have found that fiew people do HOs in a group, the roughe types can do quite a bit more damamge in addition to manipulating the wheel.

Yes I did Mama. Just because it isn't the answer you wanted doesn't mean I didn't provide it.

You relate swashbuckler damage (a subclass) to HOs (based on archtype) and then claim that rouge types do quite a bit more damage when manipulating the wheel (also archtype; ie: any scout can perform this function).

So lets say all swashbuckler abilities are working as intended and they aren't suffering any broken abilities and their DPS is scaled by the Devs not only against the other subclasses but also to the mobs throughout the levels.

Then lets say a brigand has a few broken damage doing abilites and from 30 to 40 their DPS isn't quite balanced.

So of course the brigands would be posting in regards to this imbalance. A subclass imbalance.

You are saying that the brigands claims are unfounded because they of course can perform SCOUT heroic opportunities.

The fatal flaw in your logic is that the perfectly balanced swashbuckler can ALSO do all of the same HOs and wheel manipulation as the brigand. Therefore because the HOs are based at the lowest level (archtype) they cannot be used when discussing subclass balance.

Of course this is hypothetical, but the point still stands.

You always come in saying "omg proof" and then you try to "prove" your own theories with flawed logic.

If you cannot understand that HOs are broken and are getting fixed; or the fact that they are based on archtype and have nothing to do with subclass balance then you'll never accept anyone's proof because the logic we all use to back up our opinion will never make sense to you.

Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 01-25-2005 09:54 AM

You apperently misreading my posts, I am saying that people who say that there class is broken and refuse to use of of there abilites, has no arguement. If they are using all there abilited and still can show something broken, then they have an arguement.

NO I am not. You are the one using HO and broken ability as interchangeable when they are NOT.

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 11:51 PM

Gage-Mikel wrote:

NO I am not. You are the one using HO and broken ability as interchangeable when they are NOT.

I fail to see the connection, saying that A, HOs are usefull and effective (this does not however state there not without flaws) and B, people who dont use all there abilites, and then claim there class is broken, dont have an arguement, supports the above statement.

GangsterFi · 01-25-2005, 11:58 PM

Well, as a level 50 monk w/lunging mongoose adept I can sometimes hit for 1k damage with one combat ability. The HO wheel does not scale to the level 50 game and with increased difficulty on group mobs, its even harder to execute the right skill at the right time. Plus you have to have one of each archetype in your group to pull off the good ones, which is not always the case with my groups. Sometimes we have no mage, or no scouts, or whatever.So, relying on the HO system for combat effectiveness is not a good idea. Especially when you get common and rare effects from the HO wheel. So, even if you are doing it right you still are not guaranteed maximum results. Instead you could do 10 commons in a row instead of the rare. I have tried the HO wheel and would always try to pull off the power regen one, and overall its just more effective to straight dps. How do I prove this? Easy, experience. Experience is so valuable. You learn more from you experience than anything else. Gage only posts things to help the community out, he is posting his experiences. Same thing with me.So, mama, get with the program and start being constructive, or just stop posting all together.

Message Edited by GangsterFist on 01-25-2005 10:59 AM

Gaige · 01-26-2005, 12:00 AM

Mamaseeta wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

NO I am not. You are the one using HO and broken ability as interchangeable when they are NOT.

I fail to see the connection, saying that A, HOs are usefull and effective (this does not however state there not without flaws) and B, people who dont use all there abilites, and then claim there class is broken, dont have an arguement, supports the above statement.

*sigh*

Because you try to tie in HOs as an ability to dissuade the arguement that a given class is broken.

IF A SWASHBUCKLER SAYS HIS CLASS IS BROKEN AND YOU TELL HIM TO DO HOs THAT IS FLAWED.

Because HOs are based on ARCHTYPE not SUBCLASS.

Therefore any scout can utilize the HO damage, not just the unbalanced one.

Do you understand yet, I don't know how to say it any clearer.

xrippe · 01-26-2005, 12:02 AM

/AE hug

Mamasee · 01-26-2005, 12:08 AM

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Mamaseeta wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

NO I am not. You are the one using HO and broken ability as interchangeable when they are NOT.

I fail to see the connection, saying that A, HOs are usefull and effective (this does not however state there not without flaws) and B, people who dont use all there abilites, and then claim there class is broken, dont have an arguement, supports the above statement.

*sigh*

Because you try to tie in HOs as an ability to dissuade the arguement that a given class is broken.

IF A SWASHBUCKLER SAYS HIS CLASS IS BROKEN AND YOU TELL HIM TO DO HOs THAT IS FLAWED.

Because HOs are based on ARCHTYPE not SUBCLASS.

Therefore any scout can utilize the HO damage, not just the unbalanced one.

Do you understand yet, I don't know how to say it any clearer.

Can you find me the post where I said that?

As I said before you are interpeting my posts incorrectly.

Gaige · 01-26-2005, 12:12 AM

Mamaseeta wrote:

Can you find me the post where I said that?

As I said before you are interpeting my posts incorrectly.

Yes, yes I can.

Mamaseeta wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Mamaseeta wrote:
Unfortunatly most people have that opinion of HOs, so noone outs an effort into them. However you can do all your special attacks and get in a HO, it takes some work, but once a group gets its timing down it works really well. Its not a matter of doing HOs or doing special attacks, they work hand in hand.

The effects are way beyond the additional damamge.

So claiming that a class in imballanced because people refuse to use an ability is not a valid arguement.
Message Edited by Mamaseeta on 01-24-2005 07:07 PM

HOs are additional abilities, not part of any one class. So therefore yes, it is a valid arguement.

No, rouges claim they dont do enough damamge, yet a lot of there damamge comes from HOs, sence most refuse to use HOs because they believe they suck, they are not doing dammage because they refuse to do one of there abilities is not the fault of SOE ballancing issues. HOs augment classes abilites, priest's HOs allow them to heal better, mage and rogue HOs do the dammage.

HOs sucking is the same misconception as monks cannot tank.

That one, among others.

Mamaseeta wrote:
In reguards to swashbuckler dammage, I have found that fiew people do HOs in a group, the roughe types can do quite a bit more damamge in addition to manipulating the wheel.

This one too.

Gangster was talking about swashbucklers being unbalanced damage wise and you immediately brought up HOs, which as we've been discussing for two pages was the wrong thing to do.

Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 01-25-2005 11:14 AM

Mamasee · 01-26-2005, 12:20 AM

Only in one post did I actually mention Swashbuckler, and that was making reference to a prievous post, to bring it into context. However you will find that I imedeataly went to the rogue as a general term. I was refering to rouges in general.

Craaq · 01-26-2005, 12:21 AM

Omg its D-A-M-A-G-E! not dammage or damamage or ddammaggeegg.

Ok im done....oh wait...B-A-L-A-N-C-E ....not ballance or baallaannccee

:smileywink:

MoonglumHMV · 01-26-2005, 12:27 AM

Ok...I'm a very bored observer here (must be to have read this entire line of posts SMILEY

) so I'm going to try and see if I can help try to explain Gage's point: (note all numbers are entirely made up for examples only!!!)

Level 50 swashbuckler - 50 damage/sec - not using HO's

Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's

You could make the arguement that the level 50 Swashbucker is 'broken' due to the huge dam/sec difference.

Mama, saying that the Swashbuckler should do HO's to increase his dam/sec is fine, and that would lead to the following:

Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's

Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's

That would be all well and good, but the bard has access to the EXACT same HO's that the Swashbuckler has, which leads to the following:

Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's

Level 50 bard - 90 damage/sec - using HO's

Just putting my part into trying to put some 'visible logic' into what Gage is trying to say...

Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on 01-25-2005 01:33 PM

MoonglumHMV · 01-26-2005, 12:27 AM

Double post, but now that I read the original, do you think I could have used "HO's" anymore...?!?! SMILEY

Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on 01-25-2005 01:28 PM

Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on 01-25-2005 01:35 PM

sensie · 01-26-2005, 02:07 AM

The Biggest thing when it comes to a monk tanking,is know his class. I know this has been said many times already but here is what I do when I tank.

If I am pulling, either I ask the group not to damage until after I have taunted the mobs at the camp.

If someone else is pulling I ask that they pull wiht a low aggro skill/spell and taunt on inc, making sure the puller runs to you timing is important.

On most mobs after they have been pulled, and aggroed by me and hit taunt everytime it refreshes, this lowers my dps but ensures that other group members don't get aggro and can maintain the role of dps or healing.

If the mob is just a normall mob not a ++ one, then I just make sure that brawlers stance is up, tranquil blessing on healer, and wisdom of zyphyr, and Khramic focus. If the mob is a ++ or named encounter then I will use toughness at teh beginning of the fight, to allow the healer to get used to the speed of the encounter.

Monks can tank very well, but I prefer to be dps in a group. The only reason I say this is that some of the other fighter classes have better taunting abilities then monks, which allows them to hold aggro a bit better, which allows monks to concentrate on dps.

Either way you cut it, it boils down to the player at the keyboard and how well they know thier class and thier skills.

Sensie Hwarang 29th monk Guk - Greylords

Gaige · 01-26-2005, 02:15 AM

Mamaseeta wrote:
Only in one post did I actually mention Swashbuckler, and that was making reference to a prievous post, to bring it into context. However you will find that I imedeataly went to the rogue as a general term. I was refering to rouges in general.

So? Rouges are a class, HOs are determined by archtype for the 1092384032894th time.

Mamasee · 01-26-2005, 02:20 AM

MoonglumHMV wrote:
Ok...I'm a very bored observer here (must be to have read this entire line of posts ) so I'm going to try and see if I can help try to explain Gage's point: (note all numbers are entirely made up for examples only!!!)

Level 50 swashbuckler - 50 damage/sec - not using HO's
Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's

You could make the arguement that the level 50 Swashbucker is 'broken' due to the huge dam/sec difference.

Mama, saying that the Swashbuckler should do HO's to increase his dam/sec is fine, and that would lead to the following:

Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's
Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's

That would be all well and good, but the bard has access to the EXACT same HO's that the Swashbuckler has, which leads to the following:

Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's
Level 50 bard - 90 damage/sec - using HO's

Just putting my part into trying to put some 'visible logic' into what Gage is trying to say...
Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on 01-25-2005 01:33 PM

While most of this post is accurate, I never singled out Swashbucklers.

Gaige · 01-26-2005, 02:21 AM

Mamaseeta wrote:

MoonglumHMV wrote:

Ok...I'm a very bored observer here (must be to have read this entire line of posts ) so I'm going to try and see if I can help try to explain Gage's point: (note all numbers are entirely made up for examples only!!!)

Level 50 swashbuckler - 50 damage/sec - not using HO's

Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's

You could make the arguement that the level 50 Swashbucker is 'broken' due to the huge dam/sec difference.

Mama, saying that the Swashbuckler should do HO's to increase his dam/sec is fine, and that would lead to the following:

Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's

Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's

That would be all well and good, but the bard has access to the EXACT same HO's that the Swashbuckler has, which leads to the following:

Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's

Level 50 bard - 90 damage/sec - using HO's

Just putting my part into trying to put some 'visible logic' into what Gage is trying to say...

Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on 01-25-2005 01:33 PM

While most of this post is accurate, I never singled out Swashbucklers.

You did once, but that isn't the point. Gangster DID single out swashbucklers and you immediately went into most neglecting HOs and they shouldn't cry about balance when SoE has provided abilites for them to use.

I don't know why its so hard for you to understand that HOs have 100% absolutely nothing to do with subclass or class balance because HOs are based on archtype.

Mamaseeta wrote:
In reguards to swashbuckler dammage, I have found that fiew people do HOs in a group, the roughe types can do quite a bit more damamge in addition to manipulating the wheel.

This is where you did single out swashbucklers and mention HOs, and then switch to rouge (which still isn't justified because rogue is a class).

Just concede Mama that you are wrong. Its fine to be wrong, I've been wrong many times.

But your love of HOs aside, you still can't use them in an arguement about class or subclass balance, its flawed logic.

Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 01-25-2005 01:23 PM

Mamasee · 01-26-2005, 02:21 AM

sensie wrote:
The Biggest thing when it comes to a monk tanking,is know his class. I know this has been said many times already but here is what I do when I tank.
If I am pulling, either I ask the group not to damage until after I have taunted the mobs at the camp.
If someone else is pulling I ask that they pull wiht a low aggro skill/spell and taunt on inc, making sure the puller runs to you timing is important.
On most mobs after they have been pulled, and aggroed by me and hit taunt everytime it refreshes, this lowers my dps but ensures that other group members don't get aggro and can maintain the role of dps or healing.
If the mob is just a normall mob not a ++ one, then I just make sure that brawlers stance is up, tranquil blessing on healer, and wisdom of zyphyr, and Khramic focus. If the mob is a ++ or named encounter then I will use toughness at teh beginning of the fight, to allow the healer to get used to the speed of the encounter.
Monks can tank very well, but I prefer to be dps in a group. The only reason I say this is that some of the other fighter classes have better taunting abilities then monks, which allows them to hold aggro a bit better, which allows monks to concentrate on dps.
Either way you cut it, it boils down to the player at the keyboard and how well they know thier class and thier skills.

Sensie Hwarang 29th monk Guk - Greylords

Better taunting abilites? How are they better?

MoonglumHMV · 01-26-2005, 02:23 AM

That is understood, was just using them as an example...the same 'chart' could have been made with any 2 sub-classes within the same grouping (scout, fighter, etc...)

Mamasee · 01-26-2005, 02:23 AM

Gage-Mikel wrote:
Mamaseeta wrote:

MoonglumHMV wrote:
Ok...I'm a very bored observer here (must be to have read this entire line of posts ) so I'm going to try and see if I can help try to explain Gage's point: (note all numbers are entirely made up for examples only!!!)
Level 50 swashbuckler - 50 damage/sec - not using HO's
Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's
You could make the arguement that the level 50 Swashbucker is 'broken' due to the huge dam/sec difference.
Mama, saying that the Swashbuckler should do HO's to increase his dam/sec is fine, and that would lead to the following:
Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's
Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's
That would be all well and good, but the bard has access to the EXACT same HO's that the Swashbuckler has, which leads to the following:
Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's
Level 50 bard - 90 damage/sec - using HO's
Just putting my part into trying to put some 'visible logic' into what Gage is trying to say...
Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on 01-25-2005 01:33 PM

While most of this post is accurate, I never singled out Swashbucklers.
You did once, but that isn't the point. Gangster DID single out swashbucklers and you immediately went into most neglecting HOs and they shouldn't cry about balance when SoE has provided abilites for them to use.
I don't know why its so hard for you to understand that HOs have 100% absolutely nothing to do with subclass or class balance because HOs are based on archtype.

Show me the post that I singled out swashbucklers.

Gaige · 01-26-2005, 02:25 AM

Mamaseeta wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Mamaseeta wrote:

MoonglumHMV wrote:

Ok...I'm a very bored observer here (must be to have read this entire line of posts ) so I'm going to try and see if I can help try to explain Gage's point: (note all numbers are entirely made up for examples only!!!)

Level 50 swashbuckler - 50 damage/sec - not using HO's

Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's

You could make the arguement that the level 50 Swashbucker is 'broken' due to the huge dam/sec difference.

Mama, saying that the Swashbuckler should do HO's to increase his dam/sec is fine, and that would lead to the following:

Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's

Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's

That would be all well and good, but the bard has access to the EXACT same HO's that the Swashbuckler has, which leads to the following:

Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's

Level 50 bard - 90 damage/sec - using HO's

Just putting my part into trying to put some 'visible logic' into what Gage is trying to say...

Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on 01-25-2005 01:33 PM

While most of this post is accurate, I never singled out Swashbucklers.

You did once, but that isn't the point. Gangster DID single out swashbucklers and you immediately went into most neglecting HOs and they shouldn't cry about balance when SoE has provided abilites for them to use.

I don't know why its so hard for you to understand that HOs have 100% absolutely nothing to do with subclass or class balance because HOs are based on archtype.

Show me the post that I singled out swashbucklers.

FINE. Will you read it this time?

Mamaseeta wrote:
In reguards to swashbuckler dammage, I have found that fiew people do HOs in a group, the roughe types can do quite a bit more damamge in addition to manipulating the wheel.

There.

Mamasee · 01-26-2005, 02:30 AM

Gage-Mikel wrote:
Mamaseeta wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Mamaseeta wrote:

MoonglumHMV wrote:
Ok...I'm a very bored observer here (must be to have read this entire line of posts ) so I'm going to try and see if I can help try to explain Gage's point: (note all numbers are entirely made up for examples only!!!)
Level 50 swashbuckler - 50 damage/sec - not using HO's
Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's
You could make the arguement that the level 50 Swashbucker is 'broken' due to the huge dam/sec difference.
Mama, saying that the Swashbuckler should do HO's to increase his dam/sec is fine, and that would lead to the following:
Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's
Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's
That would be all well and good, but the bard has access to the EXACT same HO's that the Swashbuckler has, which leads to the following:
Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's
Level 50 bard - 90 damage/sec - using HO's
Just putting my part into trying to put some 'visible logic' into what Gage is trying to say...
Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on 01-25-2005 01:33 PM

While most of this post is accurate, I never singled out Swashbucklers.
You did once, but that isn't the point. Gangster DID single out swashbucklers and you immediately went into most neglecting HOs and they shouldn't cry about balance when SoE has provided abilites for them to use.
I don't know why its so hard for you to understand that HOs have 100% absolutely nothing to do with subclass or class balance because HOs are based on archtype.

Show me the post that I singled out swashbucklers.
FINE. Will you read it this time?
Mamaseeta wrote:
In reguards to swashbuckler dammage, I have found that fiew people do HOs in a group, the roughe types can do quite a bit more damamge in addition to manipulating the wheel.
There.

As I said before I saw making refference to a previous post, you are making an inferance that does not exist.

01-25-2005, 03:19 PM	#61
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: You are falling victom of binary thinking, open your mind. Just because you have special attacks does not mean you cannot do HO's just because you do HO's does not man you cannot do your spical attacks. You can do your 400 point attack and do HO, I do I cycle threw 10 spical attacks and work HOs. Again the people who work HO's say they work very well, the people unwilling to work it out say they suck. Interesting I have talked to people who have made them work and been in groups where they work, and they work good. Back to the start however, people who say there class is not ballanced and who refuse to use all there abilites, have no arguement. Regardless of if you like HOs or not, that's fine. But to say someones class is balanced because of an HO is not fine, because a class' HO has nothing to do with their normal attacks or special abilities, and its those attacks and abilities that need to be balanced. Why? Because HOs are by ARCHETYPE. That means that any dirge/ranger/assassin/etc can do them. Any scout can do them. So while a dirge may be unbalanced when compared to the other 23 subclasses just because they get access to an HO that any scout can do doesn't make them balanced. How is this a hard concept to grasp? I am not saying a class is ballanced because of HOs I am saying that if you claim a class is unballanced when they refuse to use HOs is unfounded, you are not using all your abilites and saying your broke, its like saying Monks are broke, we cannot take dammage yet you still have your AQ armor when your 40s. sigh Nevermind you refuse to understand, maybe you can't grasp the concept. HOs are archtype based, everything you are comparing them to are subclass based. When talking about subclass balance you can't use something that is dependent upon archtype, as all subclasses of a particular archtype get access to it. __________________

01-25-2005, 03:21 PM	#62
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: In the 30s the dirge HOs have hit up to 400, why at 50 are they doing 70? As posted before the people who get HOs to work say they work very well. In the 30s I had one skill that could do up to 400 damage. You did not answer my question Because it depends on the HO. I have two solo HO's that still hit between 70 and 100 damage. The point is an HO is NOT a spell/combat art for a given class. Its seperate and to try to factor in HO damage when comparing classes isn't rational. Again you did not answer my question. Your solo HO may do 100 points however group with a rogue and compleate Swindlers gift and now all your special attacks are doing 10% more damamge, in addition to the huge aggro boost, if I compleated swindlers gift I could pull a mob from a pre fix zerker. Second the commmon HO chain is a 200-300 point dd at level 30, and the rare hits up to 500. This is an ability usabel every 10 seconds, the high damamge monk kicks are on a 30 second timer, three attacks at 200 outdamamged your 400 point attack, that however is hitting for 440 btw. In addition to the damamge they can change the wheel, really key when looking for a specific ability, like the slow proc buff or the healing proc buff that the priests classes have. Yes they take some extra work to compleate, but refusing to use these abilites and saying there class is broke, is unfounded. Rouge classes have very powerfull and I allways want one in my group. As for them being ballanced I dont know, however you will ahve to show me proof there not, and I will reject any DPS claims without the use of HOs, HOs work and work well. That is the reason no one bothers talking to you on this forum. You always ask for proof and can't provide any and you set up ridiculous rules in order for something to be proven. HOs are chump change in the high end game. Period. To try to use something based on archtype as a reinforcement of subclass balance shows your lack of understanding of fundamental game systems. __________________

01-25-2005, 04:55 PM	#63
ilikeladi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 42	"That is the reason no one bothers talking to you on this forum. You always ask for proof and can't provide any and you set up ridiculous rules in order for something to be proven. HOs are chump change in the high end game. Period. To try to use something based on archtype as a reinforcement of subclass balance shows your lack of understanding of fundamental game systems." ---Gage Wow you really laid a pipe in her as.s with that comment. This is one of the first things i agree with Gage on about something. HOs take fast effort to even pull off, get interuppted to much in the first place and when you do get them to work ... well you would have done more damage without worrying about doing a HO in the first place. __________________

01-25-2005, 05:54 PM	#64
Bi General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 470	personally my bard pulls off HOs far quicker than any of my other toons (wiz, bruiser, cleric) although this is low lvl; I'm sure the HO's dont become any quicker.I can pull off ringing blow (adds about 5-6x my normal damage) at least once, usually more out of every 3 tries. If I fail, dirty tricks is doing physical/ac impairment; so its useful to have there anyway..I've grouped blue 2ups with no healer in 3man groups doing HO's for extra damage. Although I admit my personal DPS werent great (21wiz at the time) but I was able to land my main nuke as part of the HO, cast my 2 main dots, and slip in 1-2 other nukes during this time as well. We learnt to base our attacks around a HO, and although eventually it became repetitive and we left, it was an excellent way of soloing something that we wouldnt be able to otherwise.3 Man HO fighter, mage, scout.tbh I think HO's work well, I can't speak for the later levels, but in the mid levels I think they are well worth the effort, given a smallish group. with 4-6 people it becomes a bit too difficult unless you have more than 1 of your archetype in the group __________________

01-25-2005, 09:04 PM	#66
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: In the 30s the dirge HOs have hit up to 400, why at 50 are they doing 70? As posted before the people who get HOs to work say they work very well. In the 30s I had one skill that could do up to 400 damage. You did not answer my question Because it depends on the HO. I have two solo HO's that still hit between 70 and 100 damage. The point is an HO is NOT a spell/combat art for a given class. Its seperate and to try to factor in HO damage when comparing classes isn't rational. Again you did not answer my question. Your solo HO may do 100 points however group with a rogue and compleate Swindlers gift and now all your special attacks are doing 10% more damamge, in addition to the huge aggro boost, if I compleated swindlers gift I could pull a mob from a pre fix zerker. Second the commmon HO chain is a 200-300 point dd at level 30, and the rare hits up to 500. This is an ability usabel every 10 seconds, the high damamge monk kicks are on a 30 second timer, three attacks at 200 outdamamged your 400 point attack, that however is hitting for 440 btw. In addition to the damamge they can change the wheel, really key when looking for a specific ability, like the slow proc buff or the healing proc buff that the priests classes have. Yes they take some extra work to compleate, but refusing to use these abilites and saying there class is broke, is unfounded. Rouge classes have very powerfull and I allways want one in my group. As for them being ballanced I dont know, however you will ahve to show me proof there not, and I will reject any DPS claims without the use of HOs, HOs work and work well. That is the reason no one bothers talking to you on this forum. You always ask for proof and can't provide any and you set up ridiculous rules in order for something to be proven. HOs are chump change in the high end game. Period. To try to use something based on archtype as a reinforcement of subclass balance shows your lack of understanding of fundamental game systems. heheyou still have not answered the question. no rules just answer the question.

01-25-2005, 08:49 PM	#65
GangsterFi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 439	The truth is level 40+ rogues DPS is not that good because level 40+ poisions are currently busted. When they are fixed, they will out DPS monks no problem.

01-25-2005, 10:49 PM	#67
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: No, rouges claim they dont do enough damamge, yet a lot of there damamge comes from HOs, sence most refuse to use HOs because they believe they suck, they are not doing dammage because they refuse to do one of there abilities is not the fault of SOE ballancing issues. HOs augment classes abilites, priest's HOs allow them to heal better, mage and rogue HOs do the dammage. HOs sucking is the same misconception as monks cannot tank. Mamaseeta wrote: In reguards to swashbuckler dammage, I have found that fiew people do HOs in a group, the roughe types can do quite a bit more damamge in addition to manipulating the wheel. Yes I did Mama. Just because it isn't the answer you wanted doesn't mean I didn't provide it. You relate swashbuckler damage (a subclass) to HOs (based on archtype) and then claim that rouge types do quite a bit more damage when manipulating the wheel (also archtype; ie: any scout can perform this function). So lets say all swashbuckler abilities are working as intended and they aren't suffering any broken abilities and their DPS is scaled by the Devs not only against the other subclasses but also to the mobs throughout the levels. Then lets say a brigand has a few broken damage doing abilites and from 30 to 40 their DPS isn't quite balanced. So of course the brigands would be posting in regards to this imbalance. A subclass imbalance. You are saying that the brigands claims are unfounded because they of course can perform SCOUT heroic opportunities. The fatal flaw in your logic is that the perfectly balanced swashbuckler can ALSO do all of the same HOs and wheel manipulation as the brigand. Therefore because the HOs are based at the lowest level (archtype) they cannot be used when discussing subclass balance. Of course this is hypothetical, but the point still stands. You always come in saying "omg proof" and then you try to "prove" your own theories with flawed logic. If you cannot understand that HOs are broken and are getting fixed; or the fact that they are based on archtype and have nothing to do with subclass balance then you'll never accept anyone's proof because the logic we all use to back up our opinion will never make sense to you. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 01-25-2005 09:54 AM __________________

01-25-2005, 11:01 PM	#68
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	I asked actually two questions, that you seem not to be able to answer.1, Can you quote me the thread where I called people names?2, at 30 HOs do 400 points of dammage why at 50 are they now doing 70?

01-25-2005, 11:05 PM	#69
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: No, rouges claim they dont do enough damamge, yet a lot of there damamge comes from HOs, sence most refuse to use HOs because they believe they suck, they are not doing dammage because they refuse to do one of there abilities is not the fault of SOE ballancing issues. HOs augment classes abilites, priest's HOs allow them to heal better, mage and rogue HOs do the dammage. HOs sucking is the same misconception as monks cannot tank. Mamaseeta wrote: In reguards to swashbuckler dammage, I have found that fiew people do HOs in a group, the roughe types can do quite a bit more damamge in addition to manipulating the wheel. Yes I did Mama. Just because it isn't the answer you wanted doesn't mean I didn't provide it. You relate swashbuckler damage (a subclass) to HOs (based on archtype) and then claim that rouge types do quite a bit more damage when manipulating the wheel (also archtype; ie: any scout can perform this function). So lets say all swashbuckler abilities are working as intended and they aren't suffering any broken abilities and their DPS is scaled by the Devs not only against the other subclasses but also to the mobs throughout the levels. Then lets say a brigand has a few broken damage doing abilites and from 30 to 40 their DPS isn't quite balanced. So of course the brigands would be posting in regards to this imbalance. A subclass imbalance. You are saying that the brigands claims are unfounded because they of course can perform SCOUT heroic opportunities. The fatal flaw in your logic is that the perfectly balanced swashbuckler can ALSO do all of the same HOs and wheel manipulation as the brigand. Therefore because the HOs are based at the lowest level (archtype) they cannot be used when discussing subclass balance. Of course this is hypothetical, but the point still stands. You always come in saying "omg proof" and then you try to "prove" your own theories with flawed logic. If you cannot understand that HOs are broken and are getting fixed; or the fact that they are based on archtype and have nothing to do with subclass balance then you'll never accept anyone's proof because the logic we all use to back up our opinion will never make sense to you. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 01-25-2005 09:54 AM You apperently misreading my posts, I am saying that people who say that there class is broken and refuse to use of of there abilites, has no arguement. If they are using all there abilited and still can show something broken, then they have an arguement.

01-25-2005, 11:11 PM	#70
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: I asked actually two questions, that you seem not to be able to answer. 1, Can you quote me the thread where I called people names? 2, at 30 HOs do 400 points of dammage why at 50 are they now doing 70? 1) Nope couldn't find one, I've been known to be wrong before. 2) Read my statement in context. You said "dirges have a 400pt HO at 30" I said "I've seen lvl 50 HOs (like my own) hit for only 70". I never said that the specific SCOUT (remember there isn't a dirge HO) hits for 70 @ 50. __________________

01-25-2005, 11:51 PM	#72
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	Gage-Mikel wrote: NO I am not. You are the one using HO and broken ability as interchangeable when they are NOT. I fail to see the connection, saying that A, HOs are usefull and effective (this does not however state there not without flaws) and B, people who dont use all there abilites, and then claim there class is broken, dont have an arguement, supports the above statement.

01-25-2005, 11:58 PM	#73
GangsterFi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 439	Well, as a level 50 monk w/lunging mongoose adept I can sometimes hit for 1k damage with one combat ability. The HO wheel does not scale to the level 50 game and with increased difficulty on group mobs, its even harder to execute the right skill at the right time. Plus you have to have one of each archetype in your group to pull off the good ones, which is not always the case with my groups. Sometimes we have no mage, or no scouts, or whatever.So, relying on the HO system for combat effectiveness is not a good idea. Especially when you get common and rare effects from the HO wheel. So, even if you are doing it right you still are not guaranteed maximum results. Instead you could do 10 commons in a row instead of the rare. I have tried the HO wheel and would always try to pull off the power regen one, and overall its just more effective to straight dps. How do I prove this? Easy, experience. Experience is so valuable. You learn more from you experience than anything else. Gage only posts things to help the community out, he is posting his experiences. Same thing with me.So, mama, get with the program and start being constructive, or just stop posting all together. Message Edited by GangsterFist on 01-25-2005 10:59 AM

01-26-2005, 12:00 AM	#74
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: NO I am not. You are the one using HO and broken ability as interchangeable when they are NOT. I fail to see the connection, saying that A, HOs are usefull and effective (this does not however state there not without flaws) and B, people who dont use all there abilites, and then claim there class is broken, dont have an arguement, supports the above statement. sigh Because you try to tie in HOs as an ability to dissuade the arguement that a given class is broken. IF A SWASHBUCKLER SAYS HIS CLASS IS BROKEN AND YOU TELL HIM TO DO HOs THAT IS FLAWED. Because HOs are based on ARCHTYPE not SUBCLASS. Therefore any scout can utilize the HO damage, not just the unbalanced one. Do you understand yet, I don't know how to say it any clearer. __________________

01-26-2005, 12:02 AM	#75
xrippe Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 341	/AE hug

01-26-2005, 12:08 AM	#76
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: NO I am not. You are the one using HO and broken ability as interchangeable when they are NOT. I fail to see the connection, saying that A, HOs are usefull and effective (this does not however state there not without flaws) and B, people who dont use all there abilites, and then claim there class is broken, dont have an arguement, supports the above statement. sigh Because you try to tie in HOs as an ability to dissuade the arguement that a given class is broken. IF A SWASHBUCKLER SAYS HIS CLASS IS BROKEN AND YOU TELL HIM TO DO HOs THAT IS FLAWED. Because HOs are based on ARCHTYPE not SUBCLASS. Therefore any scout can utilize the HO damage, not just the unbalanced one. Do you understand yet, I don't know how to say it any clearer. Can you find me the post where I said that? As I said before you are interpeting my posts incorrectly.

01-26-2005, 12:12 AM	#77
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: Can you find me the post where I said that? As I said before you are interpeting my posts incorrectly. Yes, yes I can. Mamaseeta wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: Unfortunatly most people have that opinion of HOs, so noone outs an effort into them. However you can do all your special attacks and get in a HO, it takes some work, but once a group gets its timing down it works really well. Its not a matter of doing HOs or doing special attacks, they work hand in hand. The effects are way beyond the additional damamge. So claiming that a class in imballanced because people refuse to use an ability is not a valid arguement. Message Edited by Mamaseeta on 01-24-2005 07:07 PM HOs are additional abilities, not part of any one class. So therefore yes, it is a valid arguement. No, rouges claim they dont do enough damamge, yet a lot of there damamge comes from HOs, sence most refuse to use HOs because they believe they suck, they are not doing dammage because they refuse to do one of there abilities is not the fault of SOE ballancing issues. HOs augment classes abilites, priest's HOs allow them to heal better, mage and rogue HOs do the dammage. HOs sucking is the same misconception as monks cannot tank. That one, among others. Mamaseeta wrote: In reguards to swashbuckler dammage, I have found that fiew people do HOs in a group, the roughe types can do quite a bit more damamge in addition to manipulating the wheel. This one too. Gangster was talking about swashbucklers being unbalanced damage wise and you immediately brought up HOs, which as we've been discussing for two pages was the wrong thing to do. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 01-25-2005 11:14 AM __________________

01-26-2005, 12:20 AM	#78
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	Only in one post did I actually mention Swashbuckler, and that was making reference to a prievous post, to bring it into context. However you will find that I imedeataly went to the rogue as a general term. I was refering to rouges in general.

01-26-2005, 12:21 AM	#79
Craaq Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 79	Omg its D-A-M-A-G-E! not dammage or damamage or ddammaggeegg. Ok im done....oh wait...B-A-L-A-N-C-E ....not ballance or baallaannccee :smileywink:

01-26-2005, 12:27 AM	#80
MoonglumHMV Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 226	Ok...I'm a very bored observer here (must be to have read this entire line of posts ) so I'm going to try and see if I can help try to explain Gage's point: (note all numbers are entirely made up for examples only!!!) Level 50 swashbuckler - 50 damage/sec - not using HO's Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's You could make the arguement that the level 50 Swashbucker is 'broken' due to the huge dam/sec difference. Mama, saying that the Swashbuckler should do HO's to increase his dam/sec is fine, and that would lead to the following: Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's That would be all well and good, but the bard has access to the EXACT same HO's that the Swashbuckler has, which leads to the following: Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's Level 50 bard - 90 damage/sec - using HO's Just putting my part into trying to put some 'visible logic' into what Gage is trying to say... Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on 01-25-2005 01:33 PM __________________ Moonfire - 59 Ogre Monk Ziofan - 36 Dwarf Fury Peski 33 Ogre Coercer Theleb 24 Dark Elf Warlock Moonglum 24 Iksar Brigand Moonfire 12 Sarnak Berserker Moonfyst 19 Ratonga Bruiser

01-26-2005, 02:07 AM	#82
sensie Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 106	The Biggest thing when it comes to a monk tanking,is know his class. I know this has been said many times already but here is what I do when I tank. If I am pulling, either I ask the group not to damage until after I have taunted the mobs at the camp. If someone else is pulling I ask that they pull wiht a low aggro skill/spell and taunt on inc, making sure the puller runs to you timing is important. On most mobs after they have been pulled, and aggroed by me and hit taunt everytime it refreshes, this lowers my dps but ensures that other group members don't get aggro and can maintain the role of dps or healing. If the mob is just a normall mob not a ++ one, then I just make sure that brawlers stance is up, tranquil blessing on healer, and wisdom of zyphyr, and Khramic focus. If the mob is a ++ or named encounter then I will use toughness at teh beginning of the fight, to allow the healer to get used to the speed of the encounter. Monks can tank very well, but I prefer to be dps in a group. The only reason I say this is that some of the other fighter classes have better taunting abilities then monks, which allows them to hold aggro a bit better, which allows monks to concentrate on dps. Either way you cut it, it boils down to the player at the keyboard and how well they know thier class and thier skills. Sensie Hwarang 29th monk Guk - Greylords __________________

01-26-2005, 02:15 AM	#83
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: Only in one post did I actually mention Swashbuckler, and that was making reference to a prievous post, to bring it into context. However you will find that I imedeataly went to the rogue as a general term. I was refering to rouges in general. So? Rouges are a class, HOs are determined by archtype for the 1092384032894th time. __________________

01-26-2005, 02:20 AM	#84
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	MoonglumHMV wrote: Ok...I'm a very bored observer here (must be to have read this entire line of posts ) so I'm going to try and see if I can help try to explain Gage's point: (note all numbers are entirely made up for examples only!!!) Level 50 swashbuckler - 50 damage/sec - not using HO's Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's You could make the arguement that the level 50 Swashbucker is 'broken' due to the huge dam/sec difference. Mama, saying that the Swashbuckler should do HO's to increase his dam/sec is fine, and that would lead to the following: Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's That would be all well and good, but the bard has access to the EXACT same HO's that the Swashbuckler has, which leads to the following: Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's Level 50 bard - 90 damage/sec - using HO's Just putting my part into trying to put some 'visible logic' into what Gage is trying to say... Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on 01-25-2005 01:33 PM While most of this post is accurate, I never singled out Swashbucklers.

01-26-2005, 02:21 AM	#85
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: MoonglumHMV wrote: Ok...I'm a very bored observer here (must be to have read this entire line of posts ) so I'm going to try and see if I can help try to explain Gage's point: (note all numbers are entirely made up for examples only!!!) Level 50 swashbuckler - 50 damage/sec - not using HO's Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's You could make the arguement that the level 50 Swashbucker is 'broken' due to the huge dam/sec difference. Mama, saying that the Swashbuckler should do HO's to increase his dam/sec is fine, and that would lead to the following: Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's That would be all well and good, but the bard has access to the EXACT same HO's that the Swashbuckler has, which leads to the following: Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's Level 50 bard - 90 damage/sec - using HO's Just putting my part into trying to put some 'visible logic' into what Gage is trying to say... Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on 01-25-2005 01:33 PM While most of this post is accurate, I never singled out Swashbucklers. You did once, but that isn't the point. Gangster DID single out swashbucklers and you immediately went into most neglecting HOs and they shouldn't cry about balance when SoE has provided abilites for them to use. I don't know why its so hard for you to understand that HOs have 100% absolutely nothing to do with subclass or class balance because HOs are based on archtype. Mamaseeta wrote: In reguards to swashbuckler dammage, I have found that fiew people do HOs in a group, the roughe types can do quite a bit more damamge in addition to manipulating the wheel. This is where you did single out swashbucklers and mention HOs, and then switch to rouge (which still isn't justified because rogue is a class). Just concede Mama that you are wrong. Its fine to be wrong, I've been wrong many times. But your love of HOs aside, you still can't use them in an arguement about class or subclass balance, its flawed logic. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 01-25-2005 01:23 PM __________________

01-26-2005, 02:21 AM	#86
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	sensie wrote: The Biggest thing when it comes to a monk tanking,is know his class. I know this has been said many times already but here is what I do when I tank. If I am pulling, either I ask the group not to damage until after I have taunted the mobs at the camp. If someone else is pulling I ask that they pull wiht a low aggro skill/spell and taunt on inc, making sure the puller runs to you timing is important. On most mobs after they have been pulled, and aggroed by me and hit taunt everytime it refreshes, this lowers my dps but ensures that other group members don't get aggro and can maintain the role of dps or healing. If the mob is just a normall mob not a ++ one, then I just make sure that brawlers stance is up, tranquil blessing on healer, and wisdom of zyphyr, and Khramic focus. If the mob is a ++ or named encounter then I will use toughness at teh beginning of the fight, to allow the healer to get used to the speed of the encounter. Monks can tank very well, but I prefer to be dps in a group. The only reason I say this is that some of the other fighter classes have better taunting abilities then monks, which allows them to hold aggro a bit better, which allows monks to concentrate on dps. Either way you cut it, it boils down to the player at the keyboard and how well they know thier class and thier skills. Sensie Hwarang 29th monk Guk - Greylords Better taunting abilites? How are they better?

01-26-2005, 02:23 AM	#87
MoonglumHMV Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 226	That is understood, was just using them as an example...the same 'chart' could have been made with any 2 sub-classes within the same grouping (scout, fighter, etc...) __________________ Moonfire - 59 Ogre Monk Ziofan - 36 Dwarf Fury Peski 33 Ogre Coercer Theleb 24 Dark Elf Warlock Moonglum 24 Iksar Brigand Moonfire 12 Sarnak Berserker Moonfyst 19 Ratonga Bruiser

01-26-2005, 02:23 AM	#88
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: MoonglumHMV wrote: Ok...I'm a very bored observer here (must be to have read this entire line of posts ) so I'm going to try and see if I can help try to explain Gage's point: (note all numbers are entirely made up for examples only!!!) Level 50 swashbuckler - 50 damage/sec - not using HO's Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's You could make the arguement that the level 50 Swashbucker is 'broken' due to the huge dam/sec difference. Mama, saying that the Swashbuckler should do HO's to increase his dam/sec is fine, and that would lead to the following: Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's That would be all well and good, but the bard has access to the EXACT same HO's that the Swashbuckler has, which leads to the following: Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's Level 50 bard - 90 damage/sec - using HO's Just putting my part into trying to put some 'visible logic' into what Gage is trying to say... Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on 01-25-2005 01:33 PM While most of this post is accurate, I never singled out Swashbucklers. You did once, but that isn't the point. Gangster DID single out swashbucklers and you immediately went into most neglecting HOs and they shouldn't cry about balance when SoE has provided abilites for them to use. I don't know why its so hard for you to understand that HOs have 100% absolutely nothing to do with subclass or class balance because HOs are based on archtype. Show me the post that I singled out swashbucklers.

01-26-2005, 02:25 AM	#89
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: MoonglumHMV wrote: Ok...I'm a very bored observer here (must be to have read this entire line of posts ) so I'm going to try and see if I can help try to explain Gage's point: (note all numbers are entirely made up for examples only!!!) Level 50 swashbuckler - 50 damage/sec - not using HO's Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's You could make the arguement that the level 50 Swashbucker is 'broken' due to the huge dam/sec difference. Mama, saying that the Swashbuckler should do HO's to increase his dam/sec is fine, and that would lead to the following: Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's That would be all well and good, but the bard has access to the EXACT same HO's that the Swashbuckler has, which leads to the following: Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's Level 50 bard - 90 damage/sec - using HO's Just putting my part into trying to put some 'visible logic' into what Gage is trying to say... Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on 01-25-2005 01:33 PM While most of this post is accurate, I never singled out Swashbucklers. You did once, but that isn't the point. Gangster DID single out swashbucklers and you immediately went into most neglecting HOs and they shouldn't cry about balance when SoE has provided abilites for them to use. I don't know why its so hard for you to understand that HOs have 100% absolutely nothing to do with subclass or class balance because HOs are based on archtype. Show me the post that I singled out swashbucklers. FINE. Will you read it this time? Mamaseeta wrote: In reguards to swashbuckler dammage, I have found that fiew people do HOs in a group, the roughe types can do quite a bit more damamge in addition to manipulating the wheel. There. __________________

01-26-2005, 02:30 AM	#90
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: MoonglumHMV wrote: Ok...I'm a very bored observer here (must be to have read this entire line of posts ) so I'm going to try and see if I can help try to explain Gage's point: (note all numbers are entirely made up for examples only!!!) Level 50 swashbuckler - 50 damage/sec - not using HO's Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's You could make the arguement that the level 50 Swashbucker is 'broken' due to the huge dam/sec difference. Mama, saying that the Swashbuckler should do HO's to increase his dam/sec is fine, and that would lead to the following: Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's Level 50 bard - 70 damage/sec - not using HO's That would be all well and good, but the bard has access to the EXACT same HO's that the Swashbuckler has, which leads to the following: Level 50 Swashbuckler - 70 damage/sec - using HO's Level 50 bard - 90 damage/sec - using HO's Just putting my part into trying to put some 'visible logic' into what Gage is trying to say... Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on 01-25-2005 01:33 PM While most of this post is accurate, I never singled out Swashbucklers. You did once, but that isn't the point. Gangster DID single out swashbucklers and you immediately went into most neglecting HOs and they shouldn't cry about balance when SoE has provided abilites for them to use. I don't know why its so hard for you to understand that HOs have 100% absolutely nothing to do with subclass or class balance because HOs are based on archtype. Show me the post that I singled out swashbucklers. FINE. Will you read it this time? Mamaseeta wrote: In reguards to swashbuckler dammage, I have found that fiew people do HOs in a group, the roughe types can do quite a bit more damamge in addition to manipulating the wheel. There. As I said before I saw making refference to a previous post, you are making an inferance that does not exist.