It's true, Monks can't tank - Page 2

Sant · 01-22-2005, 08:20 AM

The max difference between races as far as agility goes is what 10 points. You can easily make that up with equipment and picking agility based traits. Sure the agile races can do that too but in the end I dont think 10 points is going to make much difference, especially if you getting nice agility buffs from groupmates.

GangsterFi · 01-24-2005, 11:38 PM

Well one problem is between level 25 and 35 as a monk there are some balance issues. Other tanks get plate armor at those levels and it dramatically increases their AC so they can easily take on the mob progression. I have a level 50 monk and I can tank just about anything, not only that, I tank on a regular basis. I tanked the heart of fear access zone last night and There are certain points where you get 4 ++ level 48 - 49 adds in seperate socials. I tanked them and survived.Guardians will actually be the better tank idea against a main raid mob. The only reason this is, is because guardian dps is about as lame as a clerics. So, it would be way more effecient for a monk to just DPS mode and back up tank if need be. For example the guardian goes down. The monk can rescue, gain aggro of the mob, stone stance and tank for 45 seconds while the guardian is ressurrected and healed back to life. Then the monk can go right back to DPS .The mid to high 20s and low to mid 30s are the hardest levels as a monk. Once you hit the 40+ game it gets way better, and infact monks even out tank all other tanks in certain situations. Another example, I helped my guildmates finish the ssoy the other night. It was me 50 monk 50 zerk, 50 troub, 45 ranger, 47 zerk, 50 inquis. The 50 zerk could not tank fyst at all, he was getting hit and the healer had to heal him. OTOH, I tanked emporer fyst and never got hit. Not a single time. This point is kinda moot since emporer fyst is gray to a lvl 50. Never the less though, he is a tough guy. Infact, I can't imagine anyone actually doing DFC when they are suppose to. So, on those hard levels 25-35 you really need to upgrade your equipment on a per level basis almost. Find a good tailor and have them make you some nice armor.

cih · 01-25-2005, 12:59 AM

yeah i get sick of it too and im not a monk. 31 swash here. i've group ed with moks and tanks and i've always thought them great tanks. my buddies who are tanks different matter. they ar so concerned with ac, it beat them down to submission. they say they want me to tank. cause my ac is double.im like i can be nekkid and take the same damage.plus all i do all my damage from the back( that sounded bad)but i guess i will have to just level my monk and show them. thanks for all the great info. i will point them here for some great info.

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 01:37 AM

GangsterFist wrote:Well one problem is between level 25 and 35 as a monk there are some balance issues. Other tanks get plate armor at those levels and it dramatically increases their AC so they can easily take on the mob progression. I have a level 50 monk and I can tank just about anything, not only that, I tank on a regular basis. I tanked the heart of fear access zone last night and There are certain points where you get 4 ++ level 48 - 49 adds in seperate socials. I tanked them and survived.Guardians will actually be the better tank idea against a main raid mob. The only reason this is, is because guardian dps is about as lame as a clerics. So, it would be way more effecient for a monk to just DPS mode and back up tank if need be. For example the guardian goes down. The monk can rescue, gain aggro of the mob, stone stance and tank for 45 seconds while the guardian is ressurrected and healed back to life. Then the monk can go right back to DPS .The mid to high 20s and low to mid 30s are the hardest levels as a monk. Once you hit the 40+ game it gets way better, and infact monks even out tank all other tanks in certain situations. Another example, I helped my guildmates finish the ssoy the other night. It was me 50 monk 50 zerk, 50 troub, 45 ranger, 47 zerk, 50 inquis. The 50 zerk could not tank fyst at all, he was getting hit and the healer had to heal him. OTOH, I tanked emporer fyst and never got hit. Not a single time. This point is kinda moot since emporer fyst is gray to a lvl 50. Never the less though, he is a tough guy. Infact, I can't imagine anyone actually doing DFC when they are suppose to. So, on those hard levels 25-35 you really need to upgrade your equipment on a per level basis almost. Find a good tailor and have them make you some nice armor.

I dont notice these ballance issues, would you again mind showing some proof of this?

Craaq · 01-25-2005, 03:06 AM

Oh no here we go again :smileysad:

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 03:37 AM

Well unfortunatly Ganster continues to make general statements that are untrue. He makes comparisons that are on a flawed premice, while it may be his experence that he did not tank well in the 20s and 30s, he made his comparison based on a berzerker that was a higher level, and was before they were changed. I brought this up and all he could do was call me names. Second I also am inclined to believe that his gear was lacking, at least when it comes to agility, the stat what we now know is all important to avoiding dammage, however he wont provide any of these things. It would be nice if Gangster would actually try to learn from his mistakes instead of flaming and spreading untruths. I say show us what you did and why its broke, if indeed you are correct then maybe it will get fixed, namecalling however will not get it looked at.

Gaige · 01-25-2005, 03:42 AM

Mamaseeta wrote:
Well unfortunatly Ganster continues to make general statements that are untrue. He makes comparisons that are on a flawed premice, while it may be his experence that he did not tank well in the 20s and 30s, he made his comparison based on a berzerker that was a higher level, and was before they were changed. I brought this up and all he could do was call me names. Second I also am inclined to believe that his gear was lacking, at least when it comes to agility, the stat what we now know is all important to avoiding dammage, however he wont provide any of these things.

It would be nice if Gangster would actually try to learn from his mistakes instead of flaming and spreading untruths. I say show us what you did and why its broke, if indeed you are correct then maybe it will get fixed, namecalling however will not get it looked at.

Well unfortunately Mama the only thing you do in these forums is flame others who don't agree with your opinion and provide no proof to back up your statements.

We have a nice community going and I wish you'd learn to contribute to it or leave.

Making assumptions about Gangster's gear is childish and stupid at best.

Also agility while important, isn't the most important. Its a combination of agility and buffs that up your defensive skills (defense/deflection/parry) as these skills are what determine how you "con" to a mob and at a certain threshold you con red to them which helps evasion tenfold.

You are also the last person to talk about flaming and name calling, perhaps you should learn the definition of the word hypocrit?

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 03:54 AM

Gage-Mikel wrote:
Mamaseeta wrote:
Well unfortunatly Ganster continues to make general statements that are untrue. He makes comparisons that are on a flawed premice, while it may be his experence that he did not tank well in the 20s and 30s, he made his comparison based on a berzerker that was a higher level, and was before they were changed. I brought this up and all he could do was call me names. Second I also am inclined to believe that his gear was lacking, at least when it comes to agility, the stat what we now know is all important to avoiding dammage, however he wont provide any of these things.

It would be nice if Gangster would actually try to learn from his mistakes instead of flaming and spreading untruths. I say show us what you did and why its broke, if indeed you are correct then maybe it will get fixed, namecalling however will not get it looked at.
Well unfortunately Mama the only thing you do in these forums is flame others who don't agree with your opinion and provide no proof to back up your statements.
We have a nice community going and I wish you'd learn to contribute to it or leave.
Making assumptions about Gangster's gear is childish and stupid at best.
Also agility while important, isn't the most important. Its a combination of agility and buffs that up your defensive skills (defense/deflection/parry) as these skills are what determine how you "con" to a mob and at a certain threshold you con red to them which helps evasion tenfold.
You are also the last person to talk about flaming and name calling, perhaps you should learn the definition of the word hypocrit?

Quote one post where I called somone names.

GangsterFi · 01-25-2005, 04:00 AM

Well,There are tons of balance issues in the game still. Wizzards and warlocks are the most unbalanced at the moment. Monks are unbalanced with other fighters during a certain level range. At level 30 mobs hit for up to arouind 850 damage on a high hit. I don't remember how much HP i had at level 30, but I know that was a good chunk of it.Swashbucklers are mad because their DPS is about equal to a monk, and their group invis is not as good as an illusionist/fury. Guardians are mad because they cannot hold aggro like a zerk can. Zerks are mad because they cannot take damage like a guardian can. I can go on and on about class balance at the archetype level. Which is how the game is designed, its designed that each archetype can fill a role, but really in the end all you need is a Monk + troub + druid + mystic + chanter + scout dps and you dont need any other class because you can do anything in the game (one group content) and its be the most effecient power used per a kill and DPS. How can I prove it? Well, I've done it. Done in all over sol eye, which has to be one of the hardest zones in the game. I have done it in the heart of fear, where when you do that instance you have up to anywhere from 2 to 5 level 48-50 ++ mobs add. Yes, thats up to 5 additional socials, and I did it with out an enchanter.Certain classes do not fill the role on the archetype level like they should. There are definate balance issues right now in the game they are working on, and even the devs have a post about it. Wizards and warlocks are the main concern atm. They got nerfed cuz of all the 5 boxers using one inquis and 4 wiz to aoe everything to death. I mean I normally out DPS a lvl 50 wiz, and they have ice comet! IMO, a monk should not realy out damage a wizard. Especially when they cast DD spells for 1600+ damage a pop.

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 04:33 AM

GangsterFist wrote:Well,There are tons of balance issues in the game still. Wizzards and warlocks are the most unbalanced at the moment. Monks are unbalanced with other fighters during a certain level range. At level 30 mobs hit for up to arouind 850 damage on a high hit. I don't remember how much HP i had at level 30, but I know that was a good chunk of it.Swashbucklers are mad because their DPS is about equal to a monk, and their group invis is not as good as an illusionist/fury. Guardians are mad because they cannot hold aggro like a zerk can. Zerks are mad because they cannot take damage like a guardian can. I can go on and on about class balance at the archetype level. Which is how the game is designed, its designed that each archetype can fill a role, but really in the end all you need is a Monk + troub + druid + mystic + chanter + scout dps and you dont need any other class because you can do anything in the game (one group content) and its be the most effecient power used per a kill and DPS. How can I prove it? Well, I've done it. Done in all over sol eye, which has to be one of the hardest zones in the game. I have done it in the heart of fear, where when you do that instance you have up to anywhere from 2 to 5 level 48-50 ++ mobs add. Yes, thats up to 5 additional socials, and I did it with out an enchanter.Certain classes do not fill the role on the archetype level like they should. There are definate balance issues right now in the game they are working on, and even the devs have a post about it. Wizards and warlocks are the main concern atm. They got nerfed cuz of all the 5 boxers using one inquis and 4 wiz to aoe everything to death. I mean I normally out DPS a lvl 50 wiz, and they have ice comet! IMO, a monk should not realy out damage a wizard. Especially when they cast DD spells for 1600+ damage a pop.

I have notived some inconsistences with the dammage programs out there fighting the same level/types and there is a wide varrance in dammage. I also believe that a lot of these issues are the grass is allways greener on the other side of the fence syndrome.Altho nerfing the wizards/warlocks becasue somepeople 6 box, is rather disturbing, it cannot be stopped, and making the rest of us suffer for that is poor thinking. Some person in EQ1 was able to get a monk to 8k hits and proved they tanked better then warriors, hence the midigation nerf. One would hope that SOE would learn. I do not seem to take damamge any less then plate classes, of the same level.I was not makign fun of your equipment, however if you want all strenght like the manual suggests, you might notice your self taking more damamge, not that your equipment was bad, it was however the wrong type.Providing this imformation would help us get tot he bottom of it.

GangsterFi · 01-25-2005, 04:53 AM

Mamaseeta wrote:
GangsterFist wrote:Well,There are tons of balance issues in the game still. Wizzards and warlocks are the most unbalanced at the moment. Monks are unbalanced with other fighters during a certain level range. At level 30 mobs hit for up to arouind 850 damage on a high hit. I don't remember how much HP i had at level 30, but I know that was a good chunk of it.Swashbucklers are mad because their DPS is about equal to a monk, and their group invis is not as good as an illusionist/fury. Guardians are mad because they cannot hold aggro like a zerk can. Zerks are mad because they cannot take damage like a guardian can. I can go on and on about class balance at the archetype level. Which is how the game is designed, its designed that each archetype can fill a role, but really in the end all you need is a Monk + troub + druid + mystic + chanter + scout dps and you dont need any other class because you can do anything in the game (one group content) and its be the most effecient power used per a kill and DPS. How can I prove it? Well, I've done it. Done in all over sol eye, which has to be one of the hardest zones in the game. I have done it in the heart of fear, where when you do that instance you have up to anywhere from 2 to 5 level 48-50 ++ mobs add. Yes, thats up to 5 additional socials, and I did it with out an enchanter.Certain classes do not fill the role on the archetype level like they should. There are definate balance issues right now in the game they are working on, and even the devs have a post about it. Wizards and warlocks are the main concern atm. They got nerfed cuz of all the 5 boxers using one inquis and 4 wiz to aoe everything to death. I mean I normally out DPS a lvl 50 wiz, and they have ice comet! IMO, a monk should not realy out damage a wizard. Especially when they cast DD spells for 1600+ damage a pop.
I have notived some inconsistences with the dammage programs out there fighting the same level/types and there is a wide varrance in dammage. I also believe that a lot of these issues are the grass is allways greener on the other side of the fence syndrome.Altho nerfing the wizards/warlocks becasue somepeople 6 box, is rather disturbing, it cannot be stopped, and making the rest of us suffer for that is poor thinking. Some person in EQ1 was able to get a monk to 8k hits and proved they tanked better then warriors, hence the midigation nerf. One would hope that SOE would learn. I do not seem to take damamge any less then plate classes, of the same level.I was not makign fun of your equipment, however if you want all strenght like the manual suggests, you might notice your self taking more damamge, not that your equipment was bad, it was however the wrong type.Providing this imformation would help us get tot he bottom of it.

Well to be honest with you I am one of two level 50 monks on my server and I am proably the best outfitted. Equipment is not an issue with me. Never has been since for the longest time I was the only high level monk on the server all high level loots went to me, all tradeskillers asked if I would purchase their products first, or heck they even gave me stuff for free if I would grey out zones for them while they harvested. Both of the level 50 monks are in my guild and the next highest to me I think is level 45 and I have a third monk in my guild who is 44. So other than that all other monks on my server are in their 20s to 30s. If it weren't for all those druids on my server, I would have an abundance of light armor.Also, I made a deal with a low level adventuring, high level tradeskill guild, so I get all my crafted items for free as along as I provide the rare, and they have every single tradeskill in their guild minus a carpenter. All my high level tanks already have 800 AC tower shields and my rangers have 500 damage bows. So equipment will never be an issue.Equipment is not the end all be all for a monk, a lot of it is group configuration in those earlier levels. Get a bard and an enchanter in your group and your monk avoids better and does better dps; hence does their job better. Monks can tank, just between levels 25 to 35 its a lot harder than any other level range. Once you reach level 40+ and get things like spider stance, man tanking is a lot easier, and a lot more fun. You can take on multiple adds and if you do the right tactics keep aggro and still barely get hit.

SomeDudeCRO · 01-25-2005, 05:04 AM

Perhaps all the changes in the many patches since I was mid-level have changed things, but monk tanking in late 20's and early 30's was much more difficult then than it is now. Equipment, tactics, or skill simply didn't have anything to do with it.

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 05:39 AM

SomeDudeCRO wrote:Perhaps all the changes in the many patches since I was mid-level have changed things, but monk tanking in late 20's and early 30's was much more difficult then than it is now. Equipment, tactics, or skill simply didn't have anything to do with it.

This may also be true.

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 05:42 AM

In reguards to swashbuckler dammage, I have found that fiew people do HOs in a group, the roughe types can do quite a bit more damamge in addition to manipulating the wheel.

Gaige · 01-25-2005, 05:45 AM

HOs suck past 30.

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 05:57 AM

Gage-Mikel wrote:
HOs suck past 30.

This would be an incorrect statement. In addition to the extra dammage, there are slow procks, extra dammage buffs and AC buffs. they are quite effective. I notice a increase in killing time, in addition a smaller group can take out the same mob.However I will grant that they do not seem to be scaling up properly, but scoffing at extra dammage and abilities is unorthodox.

Gaige · 01-25-2005, 06:00 AM

Mamaseeta wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

HOs suck past 30.

This would be an incorrect statement. In addition to the extra dammage, there are slow procks, extra dammage buffs and AC buffs. they are quite effective. I notice a increase in killing time, in addition a smaller group can take out the same mob.

However I will grant that they do not seem to be scaling up properly, but scoffing at extra dammage and abilities is unorthodox.

Not when those abilities/damage are holding back damage/abilities/heals that would otherwise have been done from normal spells. They aren't scaling properly and they are way too easy to break (which is being fixed).

Sure you can sometimes get a 4 person rare for 2k+ AoE DD or something but for all the times you try to get it and don't, you are missing out on a lot of damage/buffs/debuffs/heals from your groups normal spells.

Being in groups/raids that have killed high end mobs w/o the use of any HOs, I fail to see how they could've helped.

GangsterFi · 01-25-2005, 06:13 AM

Gage-Mikel wrote:
Mamaseeta wrote:
Gage-Mikel wrote:
HOs suck past 30.
This would be an incorrect statement. In addition to the extra dammage, there are slow procks, extra dammage buffs and AC buffs. they are quite effective. I notice a increase in killing time, in addition a smaller group can take out the same mob.However I will grant that they do not seem to be scaling up properly, but scoffing at extra dammage and abilities is unorthodox.
Not when those abilities/damage are holding back damage/abilities/heals that would otherwise have been done from normal spells. They aren't scaling properly and they are way too easy to break (which is being fixed).
Sure you can sometimes get a 4 person rare for 2k+ AoE DD or something but for all the times you try to get it and don't, you are missing out on a lot of damage/buffs/debuffs/heals from your groups normal spells.
Being in groups/raids that have killed high end mobs w/o the use of any HOs, I fail to see how they could've helped.

I tend to agree with Gage on this one. HO's in general are not worth the hassel. If you are a scout just macro your HO strike to do it automatically, every scout in my guild has done that. However the 4 person HOs frist off require usually one of each archetype, which does not always happen. Second, I have done 1k damage with my adept 1 lunging mongoose before. I do not always do that much damage, but one time I did just under 1k damage in one combat ablity. In a 6 man group its pointless. However, I digress, I do see a few valid reasons HOs could be used at higher levels. In a 3 or 4 man group I can see it happening. I did the Menagerie instance with a 3 man group the other day and it was actually way more fun and challenging and we even tried off some HOs for fun. Overall, it probably did not make any difference if we used them or not. Also, if a fight is gonna be close and everyone is low on power, then you can start calling out HOs and try to kill the mob faster. Again, it seems more realistic in a smaller group. Remember SOE consdiers 3 people to be a group and take out group mobs. Infact highlight a ^^ mob and it even says we only recomend you have a group of three to take this on. So, overall the HO system is really not what its said to be. Sure the devs say it is, and the manual you always refer to probably says the same. However, I have tested it in game, over and over and tried to get it to work. Infact for while we were calling out HOs in groups to figure them out. On top of that there is a common and a rare HO effect. So even if you do pull off the right combo there is still no guarantee you will get that power regen, that huge DD, that uber buff, whatever. That also makes it pointless to practice. (this last part is meant for mama, not gage)

Message Edited by GangsterFist on 01-24-2005 05:17 PM

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 08:04 AM

Unfortunatly most people have that opinion of HOs, so noone outs an effort into them. However you can do all your special attacks and get in a HO, it takes some work, but once a group gets its timing down it works really well. Its not a matter of doing HOs or doing special attacks, they work hand in hand.The effects are way beyond the additional damamge.So claiming that a class in imballanced because people refuse to use an ability is not a valid arguement.

Message Edited by Mamaseeta on 01-24-2005 07:07 PM

Gaige · 01-25-2005, 08:59 AM

Mamaseeta wrote:
Unfortunatly most people have that opinion of HOs, so noone outs an effort into them. However you can do all your special attacks and get in a HO, it takes some work, but once a group gets its timing down it works really well. Its not a matter of doing HOs or doing special attacks, they work hand in hand.

The effects are way beyond the additional damamge.

So claiming that a class in imballanced because people refuse to use an ability is not a valid arguement.
Message Edited by Mamaseeta on 01-24-2005 07:07 PM

HOs are additional abilities, not part of any one class. So therefore yes, it is a valid arguement.

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 09:16 AM

Gage-Mikel wrote:
Mamaseeta wrote:
Unfortunatly most people have that opinion of HOs, so noone outs an effort into them. However you can do all your special attacks and get in a HO, it takes some work, but once a group gets its timing down it works really well. Its not a matter of doing HOs or doing special attacks, they work hand in hand.

The effects are way beyond the additional damamge.

So claiming that a class in imballanced because people refuse to use an ability is not a valid arguement.
Message Edited by Mamaseeta on 01-24-2005 07:07 PM
HOs are additional abilities, not part of any one class. So therefore yes, it is a valid arguement.

No, rouges claim they dont do enough damamge, yet a lot of there damamge comes from HOs, sence most refuse to use HOs because they believe they suck, they are not doing dammage because they refuse to do one of there abilities is not the fault of SOE ballancing issues. HOs augment classes abilites, priest's HOs allow them to heal better, mage and rogue HOs do the dammage.HOs sucking is the same misconception as monks cannot tank.

Gaige · 01-25-2005, 09:22 AM

Mamaseeta wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Mamaseeta wrote:
Unfortunatly most people have that opinion of HOs, so noone outs an effort into them. However you can do all your special attacks and get in a HO, it takes some work, but once a group gets its timing down it works really well. Its not a matter of doing HOs or doing special attacks, they work hand in hand.

The effects are way beyond the additional damamge.

So claiming that a class in imballanced because people refuse to use an ability is not a valid arguement.
Message Edited by Mamaseeta on 01-24-2005 07:07 PM

HOs are additional abilities, not part of any one class. So therefore yes, it is a valid arguement.

No, rouges claim they dont do enough damamge, yet a lot of there damamge comes from HOs, sence most refuse to use HOs because they believe they suck, they are not doing dammage because they refuse to do one of there abilities is not the fault of SOE ballancing issues. HOs augment classes abilites, priest's HOs allow them to heal better, mage and rogue HOs do the dammage.

HOs sucking is the same misconception as monks cannot tank.

ROFL are you serious? Its not even close to the same.

Heroic Opportunities are ADDITIONAL things that SUPPLEMENT the class. When comparing one classes DPS to the other you shouldn't do it utilizing HOs as HOs are not a median value of each class.

I'd like to see "a lot of their damage" come from an HO when at 50 HOs hit for like 70dmg ;/

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 09:31 AM

In the 30s the dirge HOs have hit up to 400, why at 50 are they doing 70?As posted before the people who get HOs to work say they work very well.

Gaige · 01-25-2005, 12:19 PM

Mamaseeta wrote:
In the 30s the dirge HOs have hit up to 400, why at 50 are they doing 70?

As posted before the people who get HOs to work say they work very well.

In the 30s I had one skill that could do up to 400 damage.

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 12:23 PM

Gage-Mikel wrote:
Mamaseeta wrote:
In the 30s the dirge HOs have hit up to 400, why at 50 are they doing 70?

As posted before the people who get HOs to work say they work very well.
In the 30s I had one skill that could do up to 400 damage.

You did not answer my question

Gaige · 01-25-2005, 12:25 PM

Mamaseeta wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Mamaseeta wrote:
In the 30s the dirge HOs have hit up to 400, why at 50 are they doing 70?

As posted before the people who get HOs to work say they work very well.

In the 30s I had one skill that could do up to 400 damage.

You did not answer my question

Because it depends on the HO. I have two solo HO's that still hit between 70 and 100 damage.

The point is an HO is NOT a spell/combat art for a given class. Its seperate and to try to factor in HO damage when comparing classes isn't rational.

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 12:34 PM

You are falling victom of binary thinking, open your mind. Just because you have special attacks does not mean you cannot do HO's just because you do HO's does not man you cannot do your spical attacks. You can do your 400 point attack *and* do HO, I do I cycle threw 10 spical attacks and work HOs.Again the people who work HO's say they work very well, the people unwilling to work it out say they suck. InterestingI have talked to people who have made them work and been in groups where they work, and they work good.Back to the start however, people who say there class is not ballanced and who refuse to use all there abilites, have no arguement.

Gaige · 01-25-2005, 12:36 PM

Mamaseeta wrote:
You are falling victom of binary thinking, open your mind. Just because you have special attacks does not mean you cannot do HO's just because you do HO's does not man you cannot do your spical attacks. You can do your 400 point attack *and* do HO, I do I cycle threw 10 spical attacks and work HOs.

Again the people who work HO's say they work very well, the people unwilling to work it out say they suck.

Interesting

I have talked to people who have made them work and been in groups where they work, and they work good.

Back to the start however, people who say there class is not ballanced and who refuse to use all there abilites, have no arguement.

Regardless of if you like HOs or not, that's fine.

But to say someones class is balanced because of an HO is not fine, because a class' HO has nothing to do with their normal attacks or special abilities, and its those attacks and abilities that need to be balanced.

Why?

Because HOs are by ARCHETYPE. That means that any dirge/ranger/assassin/etc can do them. Any scout can do them. So while a dirge may be unbalanced when compared to the other 23 subclasses just because they get access to an HO that any scout can do doesn't make them balanced.

How is this a hard concept to grasp?

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 12:50 PM

Gage-Mikel wrote:
Mamaseeta wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Mamaseeta wrote:
In the 30s the dirge HOs have hit up to 400, why at 50 are they doing 70?

As posted before the people who get HOs to work say they work very well.
In the 30s I had one skill that could do up to 400 damage.

You did not answer my question
Because it depends on the HO. I have two solo HO's that still hit between 70 and 100 damage.
The point is an HO is NOT a spell/combat art for a given class. Its seperate and to try to factor in HO damage when comparing classes isn't rational.

Again you did not answer my question.Your solo HO may do 100 points however group with a rogue and compleate Swindlers gift and now all your special attacks are doing 10% more damamge, in addition to the huge aggro boost, if I compleated swindlers gift I could pull a mob from a pre fix zerker. Second the commmon HO chain is a 200-300 point dd at level 30, and the rare hits up to 500. This is an ability usabel every 10 seconds, the high damamge monk kicks are on a 30 second timer, three attacks at 200 outdamamged your 400 point attack, that however is hitting for 440 btw. In addition to the damamge they can change the wheel, really key when looking for a specific ability, like the slow proc buff or the healing proc buff that the priests classes have. Yes they take some extra work to compleate, but refusing to use these abilites and saying there class is broke, is unfounded. Rouge classes have very powerfull and I allways want one in my group.As for them being ballanced I dont know, however you will ahve to show me proof there not, and I will reject any DPS claims without the use of HOs, HOs work and work well.

Mamasee · 01-25-2005, 12:56 PM

Gage-Mikel wrote:
Mamaseeta wrote:
You are falling victom of binary thinking, open your mind. Just because you have special attacks does not mean you cannot do HO's just because you do HO's does not man you cannot do your spical attacks. You can do your 400 point attack *and* do HO, I do I cycle threw 10 spical attacks and work HOs.

Again the people who work HO's say they work very well, the people unwilling to work it out say they suck.

Interesting

I have talked to people who have made them work and been in groups where they work, and they work good.

Back to the start however, people who say there class is not ballanced and who refuse to use all there abilites, have no arguement.
Regardless of if you like HOs or not, that's fine.
But to say someones class is balanced because of an HO is not fine, because a class' HO has nothing to do with their normal attacks or special abilities, and its those attacks and abilities that need to be balanced.
Why?
Because HOs are by ARCHETYPE. That means that any dirge/ranger/assassin/etc can do them. Any scout can do them. So while a dirge may be unbalanced when compared to the other 23 subclasses just because they get access to an HO that any scout can do doesn't make them balanced.
How is this a hard concept to grasp?

I am not saying a class is ballanced because of HOs I am saying that if you claim a class is unballanced when they refuse to use HOs is unfounded, you are not using all your abilites and saying your broke, its like saying Monks are broke, we cannot take dammage yet you still have your AQ armor when your 40s.

01-25-2005, 12:59 AM	#33
cih Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6	yeah i get sick of it too and im not a monk. 31 swash here. i've group ed with moks and tanks and i've always thought them great tanks. my buddies who are tanks different matter. they ar so concerned with ac, it beat them down to submission. they say they want me to tank. cause my ac is double.im like i can be nekkid and take the same damage.plus all i do all my damage from the back( that sounded bad)but i guess i will have to just level my monk and show them. thanks for all the great info. i will point them here for some great info. __________________ blackburrow cihx sorceror bravery honor courage http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=150760 http://members.cox.net/cihx/sig%20for%20eq2.jpg

01-25-2005, 03:42 AM	#37
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: Well unfortunatly Ganster continues to make general statements that are untrue. He makes comparisons that are on a flawed premice, while it may be his experence that he did not tank well in the 20s and 30s, he made his comparison based on a berzerker that was a higher level, and was before they were changed. I brought this up and all he could do was call me names. Second I also am inclined to believe that his gear was lacking, at least when it comes to agility, the stat what we now know is all important to avoiding dammage, however he wont provide any of these things. It would be nice if Gangster would actually try to learn from his mistakes instead of flaming and spreading untruths. I say show us what you did and why its broke, if indeed you are correct then maybe it will get fixed, namecalling however will not get it looked at. Well unfortunately Mama the only thing you do in these forums is flame others who don't agree with your opinion and provide no proof to back up your statements. We have a nice community going and I wish you'd learn to contribute to it or leave. Making assumptions about Gangster's gear is childish and stupid at best. Also agility while important, isn't the most important. Its a combination of agility and buffs that up your defensive skills (defense/deflection/parry) as these skills are what determine how you "con" to a mob and at a certain threshold you con red to them which helps evasion tenfold. You are also the last person to talk about flaming and name calling, perhaps you should learn the definition of the word hypocrit? __________________

01-25-2005, 03:54 AM	#38
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: Well unfortunatly Ganster continues to make general statements that are untrue. He makes comparisons that are on a flawed premice, while it may be his experence that he did not tank well in the 20s and 30s, he made his comparison based on a berzerker that was a higher level, and was before they were changed. I brought this up and all he could do was call me names. Second I also am inclined to believe that his gear was lacking, at least when it comes to agility, the stat what we now know is all important to avoiding dammage, however he wont provide any of these things. It would be nice if Gangster would actually try to learn from his mistakes instead of flaming and spreading untruths. I say show us what you did and why its broke, if indeed you are correct then maybe it will get fixed, namecalling however will not get it looked at. Well unfortunately Mama the only thing you do in these forums is flame others who don't agree with your opinion and provide no proof to back up your statements. We have a nice community going and I wish you'd learn to contribute to it or leave. Making assumptions about Gangster's gear is childish and stupid at best. Also agility while important, isn't the most important. Its a combination of agility and buffs that up your defensive skills (defense/deflection/parry) as these skills are what determine how you "con" to a mob and at a certain threshold you con red to them which helps evasion tenfold. You are also the last person to talk about flaming and name calling, perhaps you should learn the definition of the word hypocrit? Quote one post where I called somone names.

01-25-2005, 04:53 AM	#41
GangsterFi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 439	Mamaseeta wrote: GangsterFist wrote:Well,There are tons of balance issues in the game still. Wizzards and warlocks are the most unbalanced at the moment. Monks are unbalanced with other fighters during a certain level range. At level 30 mobs hit for up to arouind 850 damage on a high hit. I don't remember how much HP i had at level 30, but I know that was a good chunk of it.Swashbucklers are mad because their DPS is about equal to a monk, and their group invis is not as good as an illusionist/fury. Guardians are mad because they cannot hold aggro like a zerk can. Zerks are mad because they cannot take damage like a guardian can. I can go on and on about class balance at the archetype level. Which is how the game is designed, its designed that each archetype can fill a role, but really in the end all you need is a Monk + troub + druid + mystic + chanter + scout dps and you dont need any other class because you can do anything in the game (one group content) and its be the most effecient power used per a kill and DPS. How can I prove it? Well, I've done it. Done in all over sol eye, which has to be one of the hardest zones in the game. I have done it in the heart of fear, where when you do that instance you have up to anywhere from 2 to 5 level 48-50 ++ mobs add. Yes, thats up to 5 additional socials, and I did it with out an enchanter.Certain classes do not fill the role on the archetype level like they should. There are definate balance issues right now in the game they are working on, and even the devs have a post about it. Wizards and warlocks are the main concern atm. They got nerfed cuz of all the 5 boxers using one inquis and 4 wiz to aoe everything to death. I mean I normally out DPS a lvl 50 wiz, and they have ice comet! IMO, a monk should not realy out damage a wizard. Especially when they cast DD spells for 1600+ damage a pop. I have notived some inconsistences with the dammage programs out there fighting the same level/types and there is a wide varrance in dammage. I also believe that a lot of these issues are the grass is allways greener on the other side of the fence syndrome.Altho nerfing the wizards/warlocks becasue somepeople 6 box, is rather disturbing, it cannot be stopped, and making the rest of us suffer for that is poor thinking. Some person in EQ1 was able to get a monk to 8k hits and proved they tanked better then warriors, hence the midigation nerf. One would hope that SOE would learn. I do not seem to take damamge any less then plate classes, of the same level.I was not makign fun of your equipment, however if you want all strenght like the manual suggests, you might notice your self taking more damamge, not that your equipment was bad, it was however the wrong type.Providing this imformation would help us get tot he bottom of it. Well to be honest with you I am one of two level 50 monks on my server and I am proably the best outfitted. Equipment is not an issue with me. Never has been since for the longest time I was the only high level monk on the server all high level loots went to me, all tradeskillers asked if I would purchase their products first, or heck they even gave me stuff for free if I would grey out zones for them while they harvested. Both of the level 50 monks are in my guild and the next highest to me I think is level 45 and I have a third monk in my guild who is 44. So other than that all other monks on my server are in their 20s to 30s. If it weren't for all those druids on my server, I would have an abundance of light armor.Also, I made a deal with a low level adventuring, high level tradeskill guild, so I get all my crafted items for free as along as I provide the rare, and they have every single tradeskill in their guild minus a carpenter. All my high level tanks already have 800 AC tower shields and my rangers have 500 damage bows. So equipment will never be an issue.Equipment is not the end all be all for a monk, a lot of it is group configuration in those earlier levels. Get a bard and an enchanter in your group and your monk avoids better and does better dps; hence does their job better. Monks can tank, just between levels 25 to 35 its a lot harder than any other level range. Once you reach level 40+ and get things like spider stance, man tanking is a lot easier, and a lot more fun. You can take on multiple adds and if you do the right tactics keep aggro and still barely get hit.

01-25-2005, 05:04 AM	#42
SomeDudeCRO Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 283	Perhaps all the changes in the many patches since I was mid-level have changed things, but monk tanking in late 20's and early 30's was much more difficult then than it is now. Equipment, tactics, or skill simply didn't have anything to do with it. __________________ Lavomir 80 Monk of Crushbone 80 Provisioner

01-22-2005, 08:20 AM	#31
Sant Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 174	The max difference between races as far as agility goes is what 10 points. You can easily make that up with equipment and picking agility based traits. Sure the agile races can do that too but in the end I dont think 10 points is going to make much difference, especially if you getting nice agility buffs from groupmates.

01-24-2005, 11:38 PM	#32
GangsterFi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 439	Well one problem is between level 25 and 35 as a monk there are some balance issues. Other tanks get plate armor at those levels and it dramatically increases their AC so they can easily take on the mob progression. I have a level 50 monk and I can tank just about anything, not only that, I tank on a regular basis. I tanked the heart of fear access zone last night and There are certain points where you get 4 ++ level 48 - 49 adds in seperate socials. I tanked them and survived.Guardians will actually be the better tank idea against a main raid mob. The only reason this is, is because guardian dps is about as lame as a clerics. So, it would be way more effecient for a monk to just DPS mode and back up tank if need be. For example the guardian goes down. The monk can rescue, gain aggro of the mob, stone stance and tank for 45 seconds while the guardian is ressurrected and healed back to life. Then the monk can go right back to DPS .The mid to high 20s and low to mid 30s are the hardest levels as a monk. Once you hit the 40+ game it gets way better, and infact monks even out tank all other tanks in certain situations. Another example, I helped my guildmates finish the ssoy the other night. It was me 50 monk 50 zerk, 50 troub, 45 ranger, 47 zerk, 50 inquis. The 50 zerk could not tank fyst at all, he was getting hit and the healer had to heal him. OTOH, I tanked emporer fyst and never got hit. Not a single time. This point is kinda moot since emporer fyst is gray to a lvl 50. Never the less though, he is a tough guy. Infact, I can't imagine anyone actually doing DFC when they are suppose to. So, on those hard levels 25-35 you really need to upgrade your equipment on a per level basis almost. Find a good tailor and have them make you some nice armor.

01-25-2005, 01:37 AM	#34
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	GangsterFist wrote:Well one problem is between level 25 and 35 as a monk there are some balance issues. Other tanks get plate armor at those levels and it dramatically increases their AC so they can easily take on the mob progression. I have a level 50 monk and I can tank just about anything, not only that, I tank on a regular basis. I tanked the heart of fear access zone last night and There are certain points where you get 4 ++ level 48 - 49 adds in seperate socials. I tanked them and survived.Guardians will actually be the better tank idea against a main raid mob. The only reason this is, is because guardian dps is about as lame as a clerics. So, it would be way more effecient for a monk to just DPS mode and back up tank if need be. For example the guardian goes down. The monk can rescue, gain aggro of the mob, stone stance and tank for 45 seconds while the guardian is ressurrected and healed back to life. Then the monk can go right back to DPS .The mid to high 20s and low to mid 30s are the hardest levels as a monk. Once you hit the 40+ game it gets way better, and infact monks even out tank all other tanks in certain situations. Another example, I helped my guildmates finish the ssoy the other night. It was me 50 monk 50 zerk, 50 troub, 45 ranger, 47 zerk, 50 inquis. The 50 zerk could not tank fyst at all, he was getting hit and the healer had to heal him. OTOH, I tanked emporer fyst and never got hit. Not a single time. This point is kinda moot since emporer fyst is gray to a lvl 50. Never the less though, he is a tough guy. Infact, I can't imagine anyone actually doing DFC when they are suppose to. So, on those hard levels 25-35 you really need to upgrade your equipment on a per level basis almost. Find a good tailor and have them make you some nice armor. I dont notice these ballance issues, would you again mind showing some proof of this?

01-25-2005, 03:06 AM	#35
Craaq Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 79	Oh no here we go again :smileysad:

01-25-2005, 03:37 AM	#36
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	Well unfortunatly Ganster continues to make general statements that are untrue. He makes comparisons that are on a flawed premice, while it may be his experence that he did not tank well in the 20s and 30s, he made his comparison based on a berzerker that was a higher level, and was before they were changed. I brought this up and all he could do was call me names. Second I also am inclined to believe that his gear was lacking, at least when it comes to agility, the stat what we now know is all important to avoiding dammage, however he wont provide any of these things. It would be nice if Gangster would actually try to learn from his mistakes instead of flaming and spreading untruths. I say show us what you did and why its broke, if indeed you are correct then maybe it will get fixed, namecalling however will not get it looked at.

01-25-2005, 04:00 AM	#39
GangsterFi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 439	Well,There are tons of balance issues in the game still. Wizzards and warlocks are the most unbalanced at the moment. Monks are unbalanced with other fighters during a certain level range. At level 30 mobs hit for up to arouind 850 damage on a high hit. I don't remember how much HP i had at level 30, but I know that was a good chunk of it.Swashbucklers are mad because their DPS is about equal to a monk, and their group invis is not as good as an illusionist/fury. Guardians are mad because they cannot hold aggro like a zerk can. Zerks are mad because they cannot take damage like a guardian can. I can go on and on about class balance at the archetype level. Which is how the game is designed, its designed that each archetype can fill a role, but really in the end all you need is a Monk + troub + druid + mystic + chanter + scout dps and you dont need any other class because you can do anything in the game (one group content) and its be the most effecient power used per a kill and DPS. How can I prove it? Well, I've done it. Done in all over sol eye, which has to be one of the hardest zones in the game. I have done it in the heart of fear, where when you do that instance you have up to anywhere from 2 to 5 level 48-50 ++ mobs add. Yes, thats up to 5 additional socials, and I did it with out an enchanter.Certain classes do not fill the role on the archetype level like they should. There are definate balance issues right now in the game they are working on, and even the devs have a post about it. Wizards and warlocks are the main concern atm. They got nerfed cuz of all the 5 boxers using one inquis and 4 wiz to aoe everything to death. I mean I normally out DPS a lvl 50 wiz, and they have ice comet! IMO, a monk should not realy out damage a wizard. Especially when they cast DD spells for 1600+ damage a pop.

01-25-2005, 04:33 AM	#40
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	GangsterFist wrote:Well,There are tons of balance issues in the game still. Wizzards and warlocks are the most unbalanced at the moment. Monks are unbalanced with other fighters during a certain level range. At level 30 mobs hit for up to arouind 850 damage on a high hit. I don't remember how much HP i had at level 30, but I know that was a good chunk of it.Swashbucklers are mad because their DPS is about equal to a monk, and their group invis is not as good as an illusionist/fury. Guardians are mad because they cannot hold aggro like a zerk can. Zerks are mad because they cannot take damage like a guardian can. I can go on and on about class balance at the archetype level. Which is how the game is designed, its designed that each archetype can fill a role, but really in the end all you need is a Monk + troub + druid + mystic + chanter + scout dps and you dont need any other class because you can do anything in the game (one group content) and its be the most effecient power used per a kill and DPS. How can I prove it? Well, I've done it. Done in all over sol eye, which has to be one of the hardest zones in the game. I have done it in the heart of fear, where when you do that instance you have up to anywhere from 2 to 5 level 48-50 ++ mobs add. Yes, thats up to 5 additional socials, and I did it with out an enchanter.Certain classes do not fill the role on the archetype level like they should. There are definate balance issues right now in the game they are working on, and even the devs have a post about it. Wizards and warlocks are the main concern atm. They got nerfed cuz of all the 5 boxers using one inquis and 4 wiz to aoe everything to death. I mean I normally out DPS a lvl 50 wiz, and they have ice comet! IMO, a monk should not realy out damage a wizard. Especially when they cast DD spells for 1600+ damage a pop. I have notived some inconsistences with the dammage programs out there fighting the same level/types and there is a wide varrance in dammage. I also believe that a lot of these issues are the grass is allways greener on the other side of the fence syndrome.Altho nerfing the wizards/warlocks becasue somepeople 6 box, is rather disturbing, it cannot be stopped, and making the rest of us suffer for that is poor thinking. Some person in EQ1 was able to get a monk to 8k hits and proved they tanked better then warriors, hence the midigation nerf. One would hope that SOE would learn. I do not seem to take damamge any less then plate classes, of the same level.I was not makign fun of your equipment, however if you want all strenght like the manual suggests, you might notice your self taking more damamge, not that your equipment was bad, it was however the wrong type.Providing this imformation would help us get tot he bottom of it.

01-25-2005, 05:39 AM	#43
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	SomeDudeCRO wrote:Perhaps all the changes in the many patches since I was mid-level have changed things, but monk tanking in late 20's and early 30's was much more difficult then than it is now. Equipment, tactics, or skill simply didn't have anything to do with it. This may also be true.

01-25-2005, 05:42 AM	#44
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	In reguards to swashbuckler dammage, I have found that fiew people do HOs in a group, the roughe types can do quite a bit more damamge in addition to manipulating the wheel.

01-25-2005, 05:45 AM	#45
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	HOs suck past 30. __________________

01-25-2005, 05:57 AM	#46
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	Gage-Mikel wrote: HOs suck past 30. This would be an incorrect statement. In addition to the extra dammage, there are slow procks, extra dammage buffs and AC buffs. they are quite effective. I notice a increase in killing time, in addition a smaller group can take out the same mob.However I will grant that they do not seem to be scaling up properly, but scoffing at extra dammage and abilities is unorthodox.

01-25-2005, 06:00 AM	#47
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: HOs suck past 30. This would be an incorrect statement. In addition to the extra dammage, there are slow procks, extra dammage buffs and AC buffs. they are quite effective. I notice a increase in killing time, in addition a smaller group can take out the same mob. However I will grant that they do not seem to be scaling up properly, but scoffing at extra dammage and abilities is unorthodox. Not when those abilities/damage are holding back damage/abilities/heals that would otherwise have been done from normal spells. They aren't scaling properly and they are way too easy to break (which is being fixed). Sure you can sometimes get a 4 person rare for 2k+ AoE DD or something but for all the times you try to get it and don't, you are missing out on a lot of damage/buffs/debuffs/heals from your groups normal spells. Being in groups/raids that have killed high end mobs w/o the use of any HOs, I fail to see how they could've helped. __________________

01-25-2005, 06:13 AM	#48
GangsterFi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 439	Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: HOs suck past 30. This would be an incorrect statement. In addition to the extra dammage, there are slow procks, extra dammage buffs and AC buffs. they are quite effective. I notice a increase in killing time, in addition a smaller group can take out the same mob.However I will grant that they do not seem to be scaling up properly, but scoffing at extra dammage and abilities is unorthodox. Not when those abilities/damage are holding back damage/abilities/heals that would otherwise have been done from normal spells. They aren't scaling properly and they are way too easy to break (which is being fixed). Sure you can sometimes get a 4 person rare for 2k+ AoE DD or something but for all the times you try to get it and don't, you are missing out on a lot of damage/buffs/debuffs/heals from your groups normal spells. Being in groups/raids that have killed high end mobs w/o the use of any HOs, I fail to see how they could've helped. I tend to agree with Gage on this one. HO's in general are not worth the hassel. If you are a scout just macro your HO strike to do it automatically, every scout in my guild has done that. However the 4 person HOs frist off require usually one of each archetype, which does not always happen. Second, I have done 1k damage with my adept 1 lunging mongoose before. I do not always do that much damage, but one time I did just under 1k damage in one combat ablity. In a 6 man group its pointless. However, I digress, I do see a few valid reasons HOs could be used at higher levels. In a 3 or 4 man group I can see it happening. I did the Menagerie instance with a 3 man group the other day and it was actually way more fun and challenging and we even tried off some HOs for fun. Overall, it probably did not make any difference if we used them or not. Also, if a fight is gonna be close and everyone is low on power, then you can start calling out HOs and try to kill the mob faster. Again, it seems more realistic in a smaller group. Remember SOE consdiers 3 people to be a group and take out group mobs. Infact highlight a ^^ mob and it even says we only recomend you have a group of three to take this on. So, overall the HO system is really not what its said to be. Sure the devs say it is, and the manual you always refer to probably says the same. However, I have tested it in game, over and over and tried to get it to work. Infact for while we were calling out HOs in groups to figure them out. On top of that there is a common and a rare HO effect. So even if you do pull off the right combo there is still no guarantee you will get that power regen, that huge DD, that uber buff, whatever. That also makes it pointless to practice. (this last part is meant for mama, not gage) Message Edited by GangsterFist on 01-24-2005 05:17 PM

01-25-2005, 08:04 AM	#49
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	Unfortunatly most people have that opinion of HOs, so noone outs an effort into them. However you can do all your special attacks and get in a HO, it takes some work, but once a group gets its timing down it works really well. Its not a matter of doing HOs or doing special attacks, they work hand in hand.The effects are way beyond the additional damamge.So claiming that a class in imballanced because people refuse to use an ability is not a valid arguement. Message Edited by Mamaseeta on 01-24-2005 07:07 PM

01-25-2005, 08:59 AM	#50
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: Unfortunatly most people have that opinion of HOs, so noone outs an effort into them. However you can do all your special attacks and get in a HO, it takes some work, but once a group gets its timing down it works really well. Its not a matter of doing HOs or doing special attacks, they work hand in hand. The effects are way beyond the additional damamge. So claiming that a class in imballanced because people refuse to use an ability is not a valid arguement. Message Edited by Mamaseeta on 01-24-2005 07:07 PM HOs are additional abilities, not part of any one class. So therefore yes, it is a valid arguement. __________________

01-25-2005, 09:16 AM	#51
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: Unfortunatly most people have that opinion of HOs, so noone outs an effort into them. However you can do all your special attacks and get in a HO, it takes some work, but once a group gets its timing down it works really well. Its not a matter of doing HOs or doing special attacks, they work hand in hand. The effects are way beyond the additional damamge. So claiming that a class in imballanced because people refuse to use an ability is not a valid arguement. Message Edited by Mamaseeta on 01-24-2005 07:07 PM HOs are additional abilities, not part of any one class. So therefore yes, it is a valid arguement. No, rouges claim they dont do enough damamge, yet a lot of there damamge comes from HOs, sence most refuse to use HOs because they believe they suck, they are not doing dammage because they refuse to do one of there abilities is not the fault of SOE ballancing issues. HOs augment classes abilites, priest's HOs allow them to heal better, mage and rogue HOs do the dammage.HOs sucking is the same misconception as monks cannot tank.

01-25-2005, 09:22 AM	#52
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: Unfortunatly most people have that opinion of HOs, so noone outs an effort into them. However you can do all your special attacks and get in a HO, it takes some work, but once a group gets its timing down it works really well. Its not a matter of doing HOs or doing special attacks, they work hand in hand. The effects are way beyond the additional damamge. So claiming that a class in imballanced because people refuse to use an ability is not a valid arguement. Message Edited by Mamaseeta on 01-24-2005 07:07 PM HOs are additional abilities, not part of any one class. So therefore yes, it is a valid arguement. No, rouges claim they dont do enough damamge, yet a lot of there damamge comes from HOs, sence most refuse to use HOs because they believe they suck, they are not doing dammage because they refuse to do one of there abilities is not the fault of SOE ballancing issues. HOs augment classes abilites, priest's HOs allow them to heal better, mage and rogue HOs do the dammage. HOs sucking is the same misconception as monks cannot tank. ROFL are you serious? Its not even close to the same. Heroic Opportunities are ADDITIONAL things that SUPPLEMENT the class. When comparing one classes DPS to the other you shouldn't do it utilizing HOs as HOs are not a median value of each class. I'd like to see "a lot of their damage" come from an HO when at 50 HOs hit for like 70dmg ;/ __________________

01-25-2005, 09:31 AM	#53
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	In the 30s the dirge HOs have hit up to 400, why at 50 are they doing 70?As posted before the people who get HOs to work say they work very well.

01-25-2005, 12:19 PM	#54
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: In the 30s the dirge HOs have hit up to 400, why at 50 are they doing 70? As posted before the people who get HOs to work say they work very well. In the 30s I had one skill that could do up to 400 damage. __________________

01-25-2005, 12:23 PM	#55
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: In the 30s the dirge HOs have hit up to 400, why at 50 are they doing 70? As posted before the people who get HOs to work say they work very well. In the 30s I had one skill that could do up to 400 damage. You did not answer my question

01-25-2005, 12:25 PM	#56
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: In the 30s the dirge HOs have hit up to 400, why at 50 are they doing 70? As posted before the people who get HOs to work say they work very well. In the 30s I had one skill that could do up to 400 damage. You did not answer my question Because it depends on the HO. I have two solo HO's that still hit between 70 and 100 damage. The point is an HO is NOT a spell/combat art for a given class. Its seperate and to try to factor in HO damage when comparing classes isn't rational. __________________

01-25-2005, 12:34 PM	#57
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	You are falling victom of binary thinking, open your mind. Just because you have special attacks does not mean you cannot do HO's just because you do HO's does not man you cannot do your spical attacks. You can do your 400 point attack and do HO, I do I cycle threw 10 spical attacks and work HOs.Again the people who work HO's say they work very well, the people unwilling to work it out say they suck. InterestingI have talked to people who have made them work and been in groups where they work, and they work good.Back to the start however, people who say there class is not ballanced and who refuse to use all there abilites, have no arguement.

01-25-2005, 12:36 PM	#58
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Mamaseeta wrote: You are falling victom of binary thinking, open your mind. Just because you have special attacks does not mean you cannot do HO's just because you do HO's does not man you cannot do your spical attacks. You can do your 400 point attack and do HO, I do I cycle threw 10 spical attacks and work HOs. Again the people who work HO's say they work very well, the people unwilling to work it out say they suck. Interesting I have talked to people who have made them work and been in groups where they work, and they work good. Back to the start however, people who say there class is not ballanced and who refuse to use all there abilites, have no arguement. Regardless of if you like HOs or not, that's fine. But to say someones class is balanced because of an HO is not fine, because a class' HO has nothing to do with their normal attacks or special abilities, and its those attacks and abilities that need to be balanced. Why? Because HOs are by ARCHETYPE. That means that any dirge/ranger/assassin/etc can do them. Any scout can do them. So while a dirge may be unbalanced when compared to the other 23 subclasses just because they get access to an HO that any scout can do doesn't make them balanced. How is this a hard concept to grasp? __________________

01-25-2005, 12:50 PM	#59
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: In the 30s the dirge HOs have hit up to 400, why at 50 are they doing 70? As posted before the people who get HOs to work say they work very well. In the 30s I had one skill that could do up to 400 damage. You did not answer my question Because it depends on the HO. I have two solo HO's that still hit between 70 and 100 damage. The point is an HO is NOT a spell/combat art for a given class. Its seperate and to try to factor in HO damage when comparing classes isn't rational. Again you did not answer my question.Your solo HO may do 100 points however group with a rogue and compleate Swindlers gift and now all your special attacks are doing 10% more damamge, in addition to the huge aggro boost, if I compleated swindlers gift I could pull a mob from a pre fix zerker. Second the commmon HO chain is a 200-300 point dd at level 30, and the rare hits up to 500. This is an ability usabel every 10 seconds, the high damamge monk kicks are on a 30 second timer, three attacks at 200 outdamamged your 400 point attack, that however is hitting for 440 btw. In addition to the damamge they can change the wheel, really key when looking for a specific ability, like the slow proc buff or the healing proc buff that the priests classes have. Yes they take some extra work to compleate, but refusing to use these abilites and saying there class is broke, is unfounded. Rouge classes have very powerfull and I allways want one in my group.As for them being ballanced I dont know, however you will ahve to show me proof there not, and I will reject any DPS claims without the use of HOs, HOs work and work well.

01-25-2005, 12:56 PM	#60
Mamasee Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 379	Gage-Mikel wrote: Mamaseeta wrote: You are falling victom of binary thinking, open your mind. Just because you have special attacks does not mean you cannot do HO's just because you do HO's does not man you cannot do your spical attacks. You can do your 400 point attack and do HO, I do I cycle threw 10 spical attacks and work HOs. Again the people who work HO's say they work very well, the people unwilling to work it out say they suck. Interesting I have talked to people who have made them work and been in groups where they work, and they work good. Back to the start however, people who say there class is not ballanced and who refuse to use all there abilites, have no arguement. Regardless of if you like HOs or not, that's fine. But to say someones class is balanced because of an HO is not fine, because a class' HO has nothing to do with their normal attacks or special abilities, and its those attacks and abilities that need to be balanced. Why? Because HOs are by ARCHETYPE. That means that any dirge/ranger/assassin/etc can do them. Any scout can do them. So while a dirge may be unbalanced when compared to the other 23 subclasses just because they get access to an HO that any scout can do doesn't make them balanced. How is this a hard concept to grasp? I am not saying a class is ballanced because of HOs I am saying that if you claim a class is unballanced when they refuse to use HOs is unfounded, you are not using all your abilites and saying your broke, its like saying Monks are broke, we cannot take dammage yet you still have your AQ armor when your 40s.