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#31 |
Master
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 23
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![]() Viromage wrote:
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#32 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 371
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This whole discussion on these prestige is actually quite funny to me, because both new trees are so bad, that any mystic that can actually do the math would be hard pressed too find a reason to EVER take them. First, for the people that think lowering the reuse to 60 seconds would make it worth it, your wrong, it would still be a bad choice. Granted at that point there MAY be some weird script in a fight somewhere where it might be worth it. The line would become decent somewhere between 30 to 45 seconds of reuse. Personally I would rather see the abilities in the line nerfed, and the reuse dropped to something like 15 seconds, at least then it might add some flavor to the class. The right side is plagued by a different issue tho. Basically the ward at the bottom doesn't even make up for the healing loss you have not taking the other sides conversion, and the dps abilities don't even make up for the sides conversion either. So, you lose both dps and healing going the right side, any way you slice it, the only thing you gain is weapon damage bonus and that is it. Basically all the new mystic prestige completely failed, because there is no reason to ever do anything other than take both conversions. While I don't have any fix suggestions in this post, sorry, I will see what I can think up to offer solid suggestions of how fix these prestige lines, without making them overpowered, but at the same time, not making them worthless.
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#33 |
Loremaster
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 8
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![]() Hennyo wrote: This whole discussion on these prestige is actually quite funny to me, because both new trees are so bad, that any mystic that can actually do the math would be hard pressed too find a reason to EVER take them. Agreed, Hene did the math earlier in this thread: Hene wrote:
It's disappointing that it it not even a toss up between the DoV prestige and the CoE prestige, CoE should be way better than the DoV, not substantially worse Hennyo wrote: First, for the people that think lowering the reuse to 60 seconds would make it worth it, your wrong, it would still be a bad choice. Granted at that point there MAY be some weird script in a fight somewhere where it might be worth it. The line would become decent somewhere between 30 to 45 seconds of reuse. Personally I would rather see the abilities in the line nerfed, and the reuse dropped to something like 15 seconds, at least then it might add some flavor to the class. The right side is plagued by a different issue tho. Basically the ward at the bottom doesn't even make up for the healing loss you have not taking the other sides conversion, and the dps abilities don't even make up for the sides conversion either. So, you lose both dps and healing going the right side, any way you slice it, the only thing you gain is weapon damage bonus and that is it. Basically all the new mystic prestige completely failed, because there is no reason to ever do anything other than take both conversions. While I don't have any fix suggestions in this post, sorry, I will see what I can think up to offer solid suggestions of how fix these prestige lines, without making them overpowered, but at the same time, not making them worthless. The 60 sec vs 45 sec vs 30 sec reuse is a good point, with the current reuse, full moon+potency end line+CB endline will do waaaay more than either endline with the CoE prestige on top of that, it may take a reuse closer to 30-45 sec to make it worthwhile, or increase the duration, or increase the damage |
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#34 |
Lord
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 10
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![]() Viromage wrote:
Thank you for your EQU signature. Ancestral Support monitoring incoming damage after other wards and may be there is nothing to monitor. We can improve our class without entering a dubious achievements. So I suggest the following changes: Remove Ancestral Support (yes again) and replaced with Enchance:Spirit Aegis. *Rank 1 - reduce the base reuse time to 160sec, base cast time to 5,4 sec *Rank 2 - reuse to 140s, cast to 4,8s *Rank 3 - reuse to 120s, cast to 4s With this SA will become more used with 30sec timer of majority AoE. Replace the associated achievements on: Enchance:Torpor. Rank 1 - root immunity. Rank 2 - fear immunity. Rank 3 - knockback immunity (for tank with love) Enchance Enchance: Enchanced Concentration - increases the number of spells in motion to 3/4/5. Next change the mechanics of the Lunar Attendant - 1 tick per 4s, restore 1% MP & HP per tick. Replace Gray Recollection on Enchance: Lunar Attendant - increases the amount of MP & HP regen to 2%, grants Attendant non-direct area effect immunity. Spiritual Stability ..... AND immunization may cast under control effects. Shaman tree - we have obsolete achievement Withcdoctor's Herbal Recipe that reduse our group cure reuse but we not need in it with current equipment. I propose to change the effect on reduction reuse base time by 1.25sec per rank. |
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#35 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 59
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![]() Viromage wrote:
Fantastic arguments! We do nt ward bots, because we - ward bots! Seriously, dude... generally... raids are not looking mystic - raids are looking shaman (now a priority, defiler) simply because we - warders And yes! I need add. extra-cure in heroic dungeons... sometimes |
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#36 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 59
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![]() Viromage wrote:
OKay, we - OP WARD BOTS for two (or something like this) mobs ! Maranono wrote:
It's OK, but Ancestral Support should be moved to heroic-three (replace from Aegis) hmm ... read my thoughts) The problem is that these suggestions are likely to not even be read, because
But better still try... The one who wants too much risks losing everything. Of course, the one who wants out of life is too small, can not get anything -с. |
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#37 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 59
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![]() Hennyo wrote: This whole discussion on these prestige is actually quite funny to me, because both new trees are so bad, that any mystic that can actually do the math would be hard pressed too find a reason to EVER take them. YES! as usual = Sorry for doublepost, but this quote to stick on the SOEs forehead |
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#38 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 303
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![]() I don't think a viable answer is to completely scrap the current abilties, considering all it would take is some tweaking to make those worthwhile. |
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#39 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 231
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![]() +1 for buffing the current prestige abilities and not scrapping them completely. Significantly lower the recast on Ancestral Support and have it monitor the total group dps to break into individual wards, and add a control break to immunities. If at any point while playing a shaman you feel only to be a ward bot, please reference the other keys on your hotbar and begin contributing to your raid or group fully. It's not that people aren't recruiting mystics ... many, many raid guilds are. It's that they're not recruiting mystics who only play half their class. While not nearly as easy (or effective), there's been nothing in this game I haven't healed that a defiler has.I may just take the advice of others and go for both conversion lines, because Umbral Barrier is awesome and so is Full Moon. Umbral Barrier is pretty irreplacable in my playstyle. |
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#40 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 303
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![]() ChrissyFaey wrote:
Agreed. Also, it appears that there are not many mystics around to begin with, let alone mystics that try to get the most out of their class. The new mystic prestige may even further diminish the low number of mystics around. With the likely resurgance of templars, mystics may fall to the least played healer class (and one of the least played classes in general). |
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#41 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 695
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![]() Left side endline is great. Right side endline is great. Just need to work on the stuff in between the conversion and the endline.
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Buffratx - 92 Beastlord - AB Buffrat - 92 Troubador - AB Arbitrat - 92 Berserker - AB Guarddog - 92 Warden - AB |
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#42 |
Server: Butcherblock
Guild: Test of Time
Rank: Member
Loremaster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 757
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![]() ChrissyFaey wrote:
I agree completely. I love my Mystic and I semi-retired Tylia to make my Mystic my raiding main. There is so much more to a Mystic than just a "ward bot". The prestige trees need some fixing here and there though, and I am not thrilled about having to spend so many points to get both Umbral Barrier and Full Moon. Since we have the choice of spllitting our choices between trees now, why take that away? |
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#43 |
Master
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 23
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![]() ChrissyFaey wrote:
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#44 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 231
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![]() Defiler Spiritwrath is now a replacement for Putrefy. It increments to 5, but the wisdom debuff and initial damage do not benefit from more increments. The damage over time and STR, AGI and INT all are multiplied by the increment amount on the target. Spiritual Sacrifice is now a single target ability that can be cast on any player member of the defiler's raid, but not the defiler. It lasts until cancelled, and drops of the defiler zones. If the player dies while this buff is active, their group will gain damage reduction for a short duration. This spell has no casting time, no recovery time and can be cast while casting other spells. Toggling this spell off does not trigger the reuse. Wraithwall and Spiritual Sacrifice do not work for or against Empowered Barrier. Spiritual Dominion is now Empowered Dominion. Whenever the defiler casts spells that are not Ancient Shroud, Deathward or Death Cries, the group gains increased Crit Bonus. This increments up to 12 times. The Crit Bonus buff is dispelled when Deathward, Death Cries or Ancient Shroud is cast. Ethereal Souls now increases the amount of Crit Bonus granted by Spiritual Dominion by 33%, 66% and 100% by rank. Spirit Domination now improves the base casting speeds of Ancient Shroud, Deathward and Death Cries as it increments. Spiritarmor now allows Spiritual Dominion to increase the group's mitigation. This effect is multiplied by the number of increments of Spiritual Dominion.We'd like something like these, only in Mystic Flavor. Our Prestige abilities are just looking worse and worse with each successive update that doesn't address them. |
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#45 |
Game Designer
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 199
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![]() We know you're underpowered (at least the left side), but we've been focused on the lines that are so bad they wouldn't even be fun or useful if they were balanced correctly! When we get to priest balance in a few days, you'll probably see a ton of buffs (and maybe some nerfs) for each class all at once.
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<img src="http://signavatar.com/files/sigs/3355_3.jpg"> |
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#46 |
Server: Antonia Bayle
Guild: Epic Punishment
Rank: Officer
Loremaster
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29
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![]() Since you are looking at abilities....what are your plans for temp pets ? Almost every class has them, and they are all useless. The player base has been asking for these to be fixed every...single...xpac, and we've gotten nada. SF beta i think they got changed to be affected just like summoner pets, and they were great, altho still not AoE immune. Can these finally be looked at and something done about them ? |
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#47 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 231
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![]() Xelgad wrote:
Thank you very much! We were worried in seeing all the others getting tweaking when our left side was so bad. We're definitely hoping for some viable healing abilities for when we're required to focus on it. |
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#48 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 303
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![]() Xelgad wrote:
Great news! thanks for keeping us in the loop Also, wanted to re-point out that the right side is similarly unwhelming: small flurry amount that isn't even up all the time, decent damage proc (again, not up all the time), ridiculously tiny weapon damage bonus that is also not up all the time, decent ward but only wards for a good amount best-case once per 30 seconds and possibly only once per 90 seconds But I think it has gone relatively un-discussed as most mystics will be interested in the left, crit bonus, DPS side |
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#49 |
Lord
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 10
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![]() Hene wrote:
Ancestral Support monitor damage after wards, this is the main problem of this ability, AS should monitor the incoming damage before wards, because I always get 1point ward after 6sec. Past's Vengeance should work as Helpful Spirits - additional buff when AS is triggers with 20-25sec duration, and the damage is soooo low, double his. Whisper of the Past - same problem - additional buff with 30sec duration. Ferocity of Spirits - we only have a 10-second interval to increase FS counter, so increase duration to 30sec. Why we can not update the status of a triple FS? Snows Rhino's Power - it's not even funny - increase weapon damage bonus to 7% per rank and duration.... maybe it will last until FS won't stop? Claws of the War Boar - same issue with duration. Barrier of the Spirits - little interesting ward value of which almost 3 times less than the solo ward with damage stance at the same time we are losing all our FS's as said Hene 'a good amount best-case once per 30 seconds and possibly only once per 90 seconds' . May replace it on the improvement of the Stampede with improvement of the duration to 30sec and reduction base reuse time to 4min? Please do something with the Lunar Attendant that he regenerate HP by percentage and add mana regen and self antiAoE. |
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#50 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 231
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![]() There's been some misconceptions regarding Ancestral Support... It does not monitor damage done TO the group, but FROM the group. You're getting a 1 point ward because it is monitoring your own DPS and then warding you based upon it ... which is rather weak, and favors any DPS classes in your group more than healers and tanks. It's somewhat like Spirit Tap in that it will heal based on the group damage - but like spirit tap, it needs to be group-wide since not everyone has the ability to hit 700k. |
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#51 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 29
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![]() How about swapping umbral barrier for the rez single Prestige. that way we will get something usefull whichever path we choose to follow ! |
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#52 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 59
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![]() Xelgad wrote:
The left side is horrible too! Honestly ... This whole discussion on these prestige is actually quite funny to me, because both new trees are so bad, that any mystic that can actually do the math would be hard pressed too find a reason to EVER take them. |
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#53 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 59
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![]() Maranono wrote:
ORAnd instant cast =) And, please stop making abilities that ignore wards If other classes are not satisfied with their healing parses (LOL LOL LOL) - let DPS`) Because, we have wards... and this is the only useful that we have now = Or give us as much interesting abilities which have other classes! (Steadfast, equilibrium, sandstorm... etc.) |
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#54 |
Master
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 23
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![]() inspire1444568 wrote:
i want to make a note on healing parses....lets say your mage grp furry who does a great job solo healing has a mystic with the due to a extra healer on ...that furry normally pareses lets say 16k hp...if you stick a mystic with this furry there parses will go down to say 6k the mystic will do 12k due to the fact wards are normally the first thing to count on a parses this makes us look way better on parses then other healer classes...i point this out becouse while wards are a POWERFUL tool they also have a negitive effect on the parse of the other healer classes and make us look better in some ways then we are.. |
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#55 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 231
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![]() Alright, so I did some raiding tonight. Since our other mystic was speccing left side, I decided to go ahead and be the one to test right side .... and it was a horrible let down. On the majority of trash fights I was fortunate if I saw it reach level 2 - with level 3 being some significant rarity. Sure, Claws of the War Boar hit for 140k but seeing it only 68 times in an hour total of fighting meant it was about two percent of my DPS parse. We're looking at 15 flurry max, 2 percent dps increase, some arbitrary ward increase, and a 60k ward (Barrier of the Spirits) if we feel like sacrificing all of those other things ... if it's up. I wanted to like it because it looked better than left side, but it was so horrible it's worthless. I don't mean to toss away all the hard work of the devs, but I'd love if all this side was scrapped and redone. It's just ... so unusuable.As for my other mystic friend testing our left line and casting it whenever it was up - Helpful Spirits did about 1 percent of her parse - admittably, her wards weren't down often but it was still a poor showing. Triggered 10 times to an effective block (probably was up more) ... The damage effect was 8k dps zw for her with the constant clicking.Both extremely underwhelming. The only thing I will miss about going dual conversions is group avatar - the rest is a wash, and I'm praying both sides get tweaking by Xelgad before it goes live. All the feedback on the right side looked good on paper but isn't. None of it is. Help!Edit: We checked and can take group avatar while still having the conversions. One consolation to otherwise unusuable AA's!Here's some screenshots! Sure, it may look like Ancestral Support hit often but considering it's 55 minutes of fighting, spread out between 6 people per trigger? Blargh. And for Ferocity.. You can see Claws of the War Boar in this parse. Dual Conversions gives me 30 potency instead. That exceeds the value of the rare 3-level ferocity ward increase, the 2 percent damage, barrier, and the 4.5 weapon damage bonus. The posters above regarding it being superior were absolutely correct. |
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#56 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 371
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![]() Well, here is some feedback ideas I have about the new prestige. I still stand by my previous statements, the current prestige are just really really bad. The left side: 1. Change Ancestral support into an incremental spell with a 15 second recast. Max increments 15, with a 25 second window to cast a new increment. 2. Past's Vengeance - have it grow with every increment of ancestral support, where at 15 increments it is as strong as it is right now. Have all the damage recorded to the players that triggered it. 3. Whispers of the past - Have this work at 5 triggers of Ancestral support. The 4 trigger duration should be 1 second. Have every additional trigger add 0.5 seconds to the duration of the ability, when you use this, you consume all your triggers. 1 second + 10 x 0.5 second = 6 seconds 4. Helpful Spirits - Have this trigger every time you gain increment number 5. The duration should be 30 seconds. 5. Spiritual Stability - Same as now, but add snare immunity and 20 percent in combat run speed to the buff. The Right Side: This side has a complicated issue, the conversion from above is significantly worse than the left side. Basically there is this misconception that potency is worth significantly more to a mystic than critical bonus is, and having worked the math out on this, it just simply is NOT the case. The current conversion rate of 30 to 1 is just horrible, to make it even with the left conversion, it would need to be either 22 or 23 to 1. I believe that a ratio of 25 to 1 would make this conversion bearable from a balance standpoint for future prestige. 1. Ferocity of Spirits - The increments show up on the buff in Spell Effects, but not Maintained Spells, making it very hard to keep track of where you are at. Change the duration to be 24 seconds instead of 20. Add 5 percent weapon damage bonus to the mystic personally each increment, and 5 percent AOE auto per increment. Also, make the buff, also apply to the dog. 2. Claws of the War Boar - Change the effect to be that this triggers every time that Ferocity of Spirits would increment but doesn't because it is already at level 3. 3. Snow Rhino's Power - Make the Weapon Damage bonus be 2 percent per rank, also make this a maintained buff once you have 2 increments. If you absolutely can't make this maintained, have it last at least 24 seconds. 4. White Wolf's Howl - Make this a group buff that effects all heals, also make it 4 percent per rank instead of 3. 5. Barrier of the Spirits - Increase the ward amount to where it is somewhere in between a single target ward and Oberon. Add a hot to the ward that equals the size of the ward over the 10 second duration. Add 1.5 percent Damage reduction per increment used to buff.(4.5 percent total) Also make it a 2 detriment single target cure when used at 3 increments only. These are just some ideas of how these abilities could be buffed to actually be interesting and useful to mystics. Personally I don't really think any of this is that overpowered, but obviously stuff would need to be tested and adjusted appropriately. EDIT: I would also like to point out another issue with the top of the left side, is that the ability reset isn't as good. First, I think that Ancesteral Channeling is just a better skill to have reset period, due to what it is, and the heroic AA modifying it. Next, the primary thing that resets the right side is your group ward, and bolster is what resets the left side, win again on the right side. Then the right side has a 100 percent reset chance with Wards of the Eidolon, while the left side has nothing. I really think that at the very minium, the left side should gain a 100 percent reset from something, I nominate Ancestral Savior for this. |
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#57 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 59
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![]() aeyinar wrote:
Excuse me, of course ... other classes have more exclusive abilities - better protection against stunsstifle etc. , stoneskins and ward too (clerics f%&%), best group dps buffs (and still cry), and defenserez buffs... It is these abilities make game more interesting! Steafast breaks many encounters... I repeat = I mean it is =) |
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#58 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 303
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![]() So, just to reiterate what has been said already with some more numbers about double conversion versus finishing off the right side (assuming around 320 crit bonus and 290 potency): A) Potent Medium would give 29 extra CB + umbral barrier and ancestral channeling reset. Summary:
versusB) Finishing the right side: ferocity of spirits will build up to rank 3 roughly once every 50-60 seconds (assuming you are pretty much just DPSing), triggering damage portion of claws probably 2-4 times in its 10 sec duration (once per minute), and having snow rhino's power up for 15 sec also once per minute. Decent ward, up also once per minute if you want to sacrifice your DPS buffs, BUT you must be DPSing in the first place to get this ward. Summary:
To even make the right side competative with potent medium, big things need to be done to the proc chance, proc limits, AND the actual values. No one in their right mind is going to take that sort of hit to DPS and healing for some procs that are infrequent at best with laughable effects The proc idea in the first place seems like a lose-lose design. Either when the proc is up, the effect is going to sounds super OP, or the effect sounds reasonable and performs abysmally. There could be a couple solutions:
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#59 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 371
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Hene, I would just like you to know, your numbers are significantly off from what actually happens due to a few simple mistakes. But they do make a good base idea to work from. 1. The better the gear, the more someone benefits from the double conversion, this can be easy enough to see. In raids right now, before CoE gear, I am at around 400 potency in group all the time while in combat. I also sit at around the same for CB as well. 2. You don't take into consideration ability mod at all, more potency means larger amounts of effective ability mod before you cap. Crit bonus also affects additional ability mod, making healing and ward numbers significantly higher than your estimates in real practice. This of course assumes you can hit and stay at ability mod cap all the time, which I currently do. 3. To even use these prestige abilities requires players to hit a number of extra buttons which take time away from pressing other buttons. The extra time it takes to use stuff all has to be figured into the efficiency chart, to get a fair comparison. Also these prestige increase the awareness load a person has to have to take advantage of them, anytime something requires more skill, it should also come with more power as a reward for handling it. The further you actually look at these prestige in depth, the worse they look.
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#60 |
Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 303
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![]() Hennyo wrote: Hene, I would just like you to know, your numbers are significantly off from what actually happens due to a few simple mistakes. But they do make a good base idea to work from. 1. The better the gear, the more someone benefits from the double conversion, this can be easy enough to see. In raids right now, before CoE gear, I am at around 400 potency in group all the time while in combat. I also sit at around the same for CB as well. All this was doing is trying to show how bad these abilities are on a typical mystic and I assumed pretty typical stat values. As your stats increase, you get more from the conversions, but you also get relatively less and less out of each point of potency, so it's counterating diminishing and increasing returns. For example: from 100 to 200 potency, you get a relative 50% increase on spells/CAs, but from 200 to 300 potency, you only get a relative 33% increase on spells/CAs. Hennyo wrote: 2. You don't take into consideration ability mod at all, more potency means larger amounts of effective ability mod before you cap. Crit bonus also affects additional ability mod, making healing and ward numbers significantly higher than your estimates in real practice. This of course assumes you can hit and stay at ability mod cap all the time, which I currently do. Most (if not all) mystics are not capped on ability mod on a lot of their spells. Again, I think you are completely missing the point, all this was trying to do was to illustrate how bad these abilities are on a typical mystic. Also, 400 CB and pot simultaneously seems nearly impossible with the gear currently available in the game (outside of possibly getting an insane number of buffs from other characters), I guarantee that there are almost no mystics around (if any at all) that have stats that high currently. The mystic with a public eq2 profile with the highest solo CB is greekarosx with 372 CB (and 303 potency); the mystic with a public eq2 profile with the highest potency is lucchese with 345 potency (and 366 CB) |
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