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Old 02-24-2012, 10:28 PM   #151
Darkonx

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Darkonx wrote:

What I plan to lay out below is why a Monk should never die. This is how their abilities work during a fight.

On incoming, you cast Brawlers Tenacity(combined with Chi), this gives you 3 triggers of a deathsave, for 90 seconds. So from 0-90s, you can't die. This has a 150 second reuse.

After that comes down, you cast Tsunami, which makes you invincible to melee damage for 20 seconds. One might think that magical attacks could still kill you, but they can't, because all of the wards you are getting are absorbing the magical attacks since the mobs auto attacks can't do anything to you. Another 20s death-immunity, as it were. 90 second reuse. This takes you up to 110s into the fight.

Once that comes down, you cast Bob and Weave, it's basically another Tsunami, only for 12 seconds rather than 20, and on a 75s recast. This takes you up to 122s into the fight, without having had a chance at death.

Once Bob and Weave comes down, you cast Stone Cold (15% group damage reduction for 20s, on a 50s recast), combined with Provoking Stance(25% damage reduction on a 107s recast). This means you're taking 40% less damage from everything, not accounting for mitigation/resists/your passive 10% when you get hit. You wont die taking half damage from mobs, ever. So this grants you another 24 seconds of invincibility. Guess what? You're now 146 seconds into the fight, and your DI comes up in three seconds. Rinse/repeat. You are an unstoppable juggernaut.

In this series we never used Perfect Guard, 30s recast single hit stoneskin, that you can use to account for any AE, because we didn't have to!

Nor did we use Inner Focus in this set, a two hit physical stoneskin on a 71s recast, because again, we never needed to!

Yet again, we didn't use Outward Calm, a 30k magical ward with a 30s duration, 45s recast, because there was no need!

Mountain Stance for 4k physical mitigation and 3k to all resists? Why bother! You wont ever die anyways!

Body Like Mountain, it roots me, and I don't need the extra 1200 mitigation, so I'm CERTAINLY not casting that!

Mend? That's a 100% heal that gives me 15% extra block! I don't need it though BECAUSE I DON"T TAKE DAMAGE!

Oh, and 100% of the time I get hit, I proc 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds! It can only proc once every 10 seconds, but hey, I'll take 30% damage reduction 30% of the time, any day!

I get hit for more than 40% of my health, so I heal for 15% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)

This is all on top of taking less than half as much damage from physical attacks as a plate tank due to innate avoidance/mitigation values. Stop telling me I'm balanced. I play both classes. I am not balanced.

(For terrible players with terrible AA specs, perhaps Brawlers are balanced. For those of us who know what we are doing and min/max though, they are so completely ridiculously imbalanced that it's GAMEBREAKING.)

Just for kicks, I thought I'd do a similar time-line for an SK. Let's say I always want to have an equivalent damage prevention running. Let's see how far through a fight I can get!

I'll open up the fight with Furor, it gives me 15 seconds of avoidance on a 131 second recast(Not strikethrough-immune, or even strikethrough-resistant! Avoidance). Okay, 15s in, I'm alive, good!

Then I cast Manawall, it lasts 12 seconds, but it cancels when your mana drops below 10%, so realistically you're lucky to get 5 seconds out of it. This ability wont be back for another 108 seconds. 20 seconds in, looking good!

Hmm, what to cast now. Let's try Legionnaire's Conviction(180s reuse, unmodifiable). This is similar to the combination listed above for brawlers in that it grants damage reduction, but only to magical unfortunately! So now I get trucked by physical AE's, or even auto attack. Not a period of invincibility, so much as being SLIGHTLY less death-prone. 40 seconds in, and still kicking if a melee AE/auto attack hasn't downed me yet!

After that I cast Crusaders Faith, which heals me for 24 seconds. It wont stop one shots, the only thing it will do is prevent me from getting slowly attacked to death, something that happens so rarely as it warrants massive remarks if it IS ever to happen. It's not even comparable to any of the monk abilities, and I'm rather dubious if I should list it at all. Yeah, 64 seconds into the fight! Still alive if I'm lucky!

What now? I have a single one hit stoneskin on more than double the recast of Perfect Guard. I also have a ward that drains 25% of my groups health that will probably last through one multi attack swing. Other than those two I have nothing up for the next sixty seconds. I'm defenseless for as long as I have defenses, compared to the monk who has OVERLAP on their abilities. Just the act of writing all this out is just showing me again how utterly imbalanced the classes are.

We have 20 seconds of comparable defense to their FULL TIME defense, and then a full two minutes where nothing we have even remotely compares.

How can anyone POSSIBLY think tanks are balanced? It blows me away.

P.S. Just for the record, my SK has MUCH better gear than my Brawler.

Edit: Altered numbers on meditative mending to be correct. Lol.

Quoted yet again, for the more accurate comparison.

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Old 02-24-2012, 10:51 PM   #152
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Wow missed a lot.

I see Blanka has blessed the forums with his presence and trolling once again.  Typical at nit-picking the fine details that is totally useless for trying to argue the blatently obvious disparities that are brought up.  Good try once again trying to deflect from the obvious.

Cory its about time you pipe in.

Dark nice write up.

Gungo seriously you just basically repeated a lot of what I did.  Remove strike through immunity (ok yeah put them on avoidance saves makes sense like we discussed early DoV).  Make BL castable in-combat....yeah, only been saying that since DoV beta.  There are a couple other things I have pointed out that are abilities that SKs need relooking at for obvious reasons....like the Mythical buff for example which is by far the weakest buff of all Fighters and arguably the weakest one of all classes.  Lifetaps being meaningless outside of solo game play being another area that needs to be addressed since so much of the class - abilities/AAs - are focused around these and they are worthless?  Manawall being such a worthless ability due to all the power intensive fights in the game.

Quabi luv the unkillable jug comment simpley because the Brawlers get all defensive about it.

Gungo you can spec a Monk to be the most effective AE tank as well simply because they CAN hold agro on AE content against raids and their abilities work just as well against AE content since unlike a Guard most of the stuff is flat duration avoidance boosts or damage reduction.

As for the lines of AE v ST those blurred a ton way too long ago.  You have supposedly ST tanks with AE target locks and snap abilities that can snap AE mobs.  You have every Fighter that can reach high levels of AE auto attack.  You have siphons from AE classes to hold AE mobs on people.  You have ST-type tank abilities that work great on AE mobs.  I mean really an optimum raid in todays game if you really wanted to have the best set up Fighter-wise would probably 2 Brawlers and 1 Guard.....throw in another Brawler for any Fight that might benefit a 4th Fighter.

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Old 02-24-2012, 11:21 PM   #153
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Darkonx wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

What I plan to lay out below is why a Monk should never die. This is how their abilities work during a fight.

On incoming, you cast Brawlers Tenacity(combined with Chi), this gives you 3 triggers of a deathsave, for 90 seconds. So from 0-90s, you can't die. This has a 150 second reuse.

After that comes down, you cast Tsunami, which makes you invincible to melee damage for 20 seconds. One might think that magical attacks could still kill you, but they can't, because all of the wards you are getting are absorbing the magical attacks since the mobs auto attacks can't do anything to you. Another 20s death-immunity, as it were. 90 second reuse. This takes you up to 110s into the fight.

Once that comes down, you cast Bob and Weave, it's basically another Tsunami, only for 12 seconds rather than 20, and on a 75s recast. This takes you up to 122s into the fight, without having had a chance at death.

Once Bob and Weave comes down, you cast Stone Cold (15% group damage reduction for 20s, on a 50s recast), combined with Provoking Stance(25% damage reduction on a 107s recast). This means you're taking 40% less damage from everything, not accounting for mitigation/resists/your passive 10% when you get hit. You wont die taking half damage from mobs, ever. So this grants you another 24 seconds of invincibility. Guess what? You're now 146 seconds into the fight, and your DI comes up in three seconds. Rinse/repeat. You are an unstoppable juggernaut.

In this series we never used Perfect Guard, 30s recast single hit stoneskin, that you can use to account for any AE, because we didn't have to!

Nor did we use Inner Focus in this set, a two hit physical stoneskin on a 71s recast, because again, we never needed to!

Yet again, we didn't use Outward Calm, a 30k magical ward with a 30s duration, 45s recast, because there was no need!

Mountain Stance for 4k physical mitigation and 3k to all resists? Why bother! You wont ever die anyways!

Body Like Mountain, it roots me, and I don't need the extra 1200 mitigation, so I'm CERTAINLY not casting that!

Mend? That's a 100% heal that gives me 15% extra block! I don't need it though BECAUSE I DON"T TAKE DAMAGE!

Oh, and 100% of the time I get hit, I proc 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds! It can only proc once every 10 seconds, but hey, I'll take 30% damage reduction 30% of the time, any day!

I get hit for more than 40% of my health, so I heal for 15% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)

This is all on top of taking less than half as much damage from physical attacks as a plate tank due to innate avoidance/mitigation values. Stop telling me I'm balanced. I play both classes. I am not balanced.

(For terrible players with terrible AA specs, perhaps Brawlers are balanced. For those of us who know what we are doing and min/max though, they are so completely ridiculously imbalanced that it's GAMEBREAKING.)

Just for kicks, I thought I'd do a similar time-line for an SK. Let's say I always want to have an equivalent damage prevention running. Let's see how far through a fight I can get!

I'll open up the fight with Furor, it gives me 15 seconds of avoidance on a 131 second recast(Not strikethrough-immune, or even strikethrough-resistant! Avoidance). Okay, 15s in, I'm alive, good!

Then I cast Manawall, it lasts 12 seconds, but it cancels when your mana drops below 10%, so realistically you're lucky to get 5 seconds out of it. This ability wont be back for another 108 seconds. 20 seconds in, looking good!

Hmm, what to cast now. Let's try Legionnaire's Conviction(180s reuse, unmodifiable). This is similar to the combination listed above for brawlers in that it grants damage reduction, but only to magical unfortunately! So now I get trucked by physical AE's, or even auto attack. Not a period of invincibility, so much as being SLIGHTLY less death-prone. 40 seconds in, and still kicking if a melee AE/auto attack hasn't downed me yet!

After that I cast Crusaders Faith, which heals me for 24 seconds. It wont stop one shots, the only thing it will do is prevent me from getting slowly attacked to death, something that happens so rarely as it warrants massive remarks if it IS ever to happen. It's not even comparable to any of the monk abilities, and I'm rather dubious if I should list it at all. Yeah, 64 seconds into the fight! Still alive if I'm lucky!

What now? I have a single one hit stoneskin on more than double the recast of Perfect Guard. I also have a ward that drains 25% of my groups health that will probably last through one multi attack swing. Other than those two I have nothing up for the next sixty seconds. I'm defenseless for as long as I have defenses, compared to the monk who has OVERLAP on their abilities. Just the act of writing all this out is just showing me again how utterly imbalanced the classes are.

We have 20 seconds of comparable defense to their FULL TIME defense, and then a full two minutes where nothing we have even remotely compares.

How can anyone POSSIBLY think tanks are balanced? It blows me away.

P.S. Just for the record, my SK has MUCH better gear than my Brawler.

Edit: Altered numbers on meditative mending to be correct. Lol.

Quoted yet again, for the more accurate comparison.

I love this ROFL

You should say quoted again after editing from not knowing several of the mechanics/abilities/abilities mechanics.

What is it really dude like 5 abilities so far you had messed up in some way shape form from the original? And you still think people are taking you seriously? Funny, Total denial, But funny.

 This is why Devs dont read this stuff /shrug

 The cant die for 90s needs edited btw, and the beginning where you say dont cast nothing till 90s is up and then hit tsunami after the death prevent  comes down needs edited btw.

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Old 02-25-2012, 12:07 AM   #154
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Damager wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

What I plan to lay out below is why a Monk should never die. This is how their abilities work during a fight.

On incoming, you cast Brawlers Tenacity(combined with Chi), this gives you 3 triggers of a deathsave, for 90 seconds. So from 0-90s, you can't die. This has a 150 second reuse.

After that comes down, you cast Tsunami, which makes you invincible to melee damage for 20 seconds. One might think that magical attacks could still kill you, but they can't, because all of the wards you are getting are absorbing the magical attacks since the mobs auto attacks can't do anything to you. Another 20s death-immunity, as it were. 90 second reuse. This takes you up to 110s into the fight.

Once that comes down, you cast Bob and Weave, it's basically another Tsunami, only for 12 seconds rather than 20, and on a 75s recast. This takes you up to 122s into the fight, without having had a chance at death.

Once Bob and Weave comes down, you cast Stone Cold (15% group damage reduction for 20s, on a 50s recast), combined with Provoking Stance(25% damage reduction on a 107s recast). This means you're taking 40% less damage from everything, not accounting for mitigation/resists/your passive 10% when you get hit. You wont die taking half damage from mobs, ever. So this grants you another 24 seconds of invincibility. Guess what? You're now 146 seconds into the fight, and your DI comes up in three seconds. Rinse/repeat. You are an unstoppable juggernaut.

In this series we never used Perfect Guard, 30s recast single hit stoneskin, that you can use to account for any AE, because we didn't have to!

Nor did we use Inner Focus in this set, a two hit physical stoneskin on a 71s recast, because again, we never needed to!

Yet again, we didn't use Outward Calm, a 30k magical ward with a 30s duration, 45s recast, because there was no need!

Mountain Stance for 4k physical mitigation and 3k to all resists? Why bother! You wont ever die anyways!

Body Like Mountain, it roots me, and I don't need the extra 1200 mitigation, so I'm CERTAINLY not casting that!

Mend? That's a 100% heal that gives me 15% extra block! I don't need it though BECAUSE I DON"T TAKE DAMAGE!

Oh, and 100% of the time I get hit, I proc 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds! It can only proc once every 10 seconds, but hey, I'll take 30% damage reduction 30% of the time, any day!

I get hit for more than 40% of my health, so I heal for 15% of my health? Sounds sweet! (Of course instead of a heal Bruisers get a stoneskin on every successful avoid. You can imagine how quickly that becomes insanely imbalanced, being a brawler and having 94% static avoidance. To give you an idea it's about DOUBLE the amount that a dirge grants. Lol.)

This is all on top of taking less than half as much damage from physical attacks as a plate tank due to innate avoidance/mitigation values. Stop telling me I'm balanced. I play both classes. I am not balanced.

(For terrible players with terrible AA specs, perhaps Brawlers are balanced. For those of us who know what we are doing and min/max though, they are so completely ridiculously imbalanced that it's GAMEBREAKING.)

Just for kicks, I thought I'd do a similar time-line for an SK. Let's say I always want to have an equivalent damage prevention running. Let's see how far through a fight I can get!

I'll open up the fight with Furor, it gives me 15 seconds of avoidance on a 131 second recast(Not strikethrough-immune, or even strikethrough-resistant! Avoidance). Okay, 15s in, I'm alive, good!

Then I cast Manawall, it lasts 12 seconds, but it cancels when your mana drops below 10%, so realistically you're lucky to get 5 seconds out of it. This ability wont be back for another 108 seconds. 20 seconds in, looking good!

Hmm, what to cast now. Let's try Legionnaire's Conviction(180s reuse, unmodifiable). This is similar to the combination listed above for brawlers in that it grants damage reduction, but only to magical unfortunately! So now I get trucked by physical AE's, or even auto attack. Not a period of invincibility, so much as being SLIGHTLY less death-prone. 40 seconds in, and still kicking if a melee AE/auto attack hasn't downed me yet!

After that I cast Crusaders Faith, which heals me for 24 seconds. It wont stop one shots, the only thing it will do is prevent me from getting slowly attacked to death, something that happens so rarely as it warrants massive remarks if it IS ever to happen. It's not even comparable to any of the monk abilities, and I'm rather dubious if I should list it at all. Yeah, 64 seconds into the fight! Still alive if I'm lucky!

What now? I have a single one hit stoneskin on more than double the recast of Perfect Guard. I also have a ward that drains 25% of my groups health that will probably last through one multi attack swing. Other than those two I have nothing up for the next sixty seconds. I'm defenseless for as long as I have defenses, compared to the monk who has OVERLAP on their abilities. Just the act of writing all this out is just showing me again how utterly imbalanced the classes are.

We have 20 seconds of comparable defense to their FULL TIME defense, and then a full two minutes where nothing we have even remotely compares.

How can anyone POSSIBLY think tanks are balanced? It blows me away.

P.S. Just for the record, my SK has MUCH better gear than my Brawler.

Edit: Altered numbers on meditative mending to be correct. Lol.

Quoted yet again, for the more accurate comparison.

I love this ROFL

You should say quoted again after editing from not knowing several of the mechanics/abilities/abilities mechanics.

What is it really dude like 5 abilities so far you had messed up in some way shape form from the original? And you still think people are taking you seriously? Funny, Total denial, But funny.

 This is why Devs dont read this stuff /shrug

 The cant die for 90s needs edited btw, and the beginning where you say dont cast nothing till 90s is up and then hit tsunami after the death prevent  comes down needs edited btw.

Hardly. I labeled one ability as 25s instead of 24s. Meditative mending isn't altered by potency. Cool.

You don't have to cast anything while your DI is up. Dying every 30 seconds means you're dying more than once per AE set, which isn't going to happen if your healers are pressing buttons.

You don't spec for 3 triggers of your DI, and you think Superior Guard is a ward. Your input means less than nothing to anyone who plays this game at a remotely high level.

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Old 02-25-2012, 12:39 AM   #155
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Darkonx wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

I'm not saying Monks should be nerfed. Never once have I said that. I believe other tanks need additional abilities, and base cooldowns altered, for there to be any semblance of balance however. -25% recast off the base of Furor, and in combat BL would be a decent start.

Just changing the recast time of BL to the start of the spell and not the end may fix the problem you have with it?

It being recastable at the start rather than at the end would make no difference, as I can't recast it in combat. It's literally a non-combat only ability. Similar to call of the tinkerer in that regard, to give you an exact comparison.

All tanks should be buffed to the level that Brawlers have been, to tank the content that we are currently fighting.

Shadowknights need in combat Bloodletter, and Legionnaire's Conviction should be modifiable. (Like it was in SF)

Lifetaps(Devour Vitae and Tap Veins) should also crit. (Like they did in SF)

Once those changes are in, I'll re-evaluate balance.

You do realize I agree with you on those changes and think those are balanced with bruisers as i stated before. I dont agree with the changes bruener asks for which were ridiculous. I also think strikethrough immunity should be removed and placed on avoid buffs only. And as i stated before these are the comparison for bruiser-shadowknight saves.

Inner focus  60 sec reuse                                     vs                  hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins                                                               1 ANY stoneskin

Impenetrable will 90 sec reuse  12 sec dur          vs                 Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency                                                             Avoid buff/20% potency/+hate

Unyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur             vs             Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur avoid buff/ full heal over time                                                 NO phy damage over 60% of your health.                                                                                                  Stone deaf 1 min reuse                                        vs      Legionaire Conviction 3min recast(currently nonmod) 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins                                                            40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse  1.5min dur        vs       Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse(currently noncombat), UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs                         2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min if it reaches full dur               Will be down for 1.5 min ONLY after its usedif it doesnt reach full dur it will be down longer

Ignore pain 45 sec reuse                                    vs       Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal                                                                     Its a HUGE ward  60k+Stone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur                    vs      Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction                                         No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam(this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot)                (Will stop at least one 1 shots)???????                                                               vs       New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur                                                                                       40% ALL damage reduction/Aoe rescue

You wrote this down before. There are massive problems with it. You can't just assume 100% reuse. That's a fallacy of logic. I wrote down realistic numbers between the two characters in similar gear; the SK actually had an advantage in terms of gear. There is also the fact that currently BL can't be used in combat. Until thats changed, comparing them is quite impossible.

NOTHING to assume the shadowknight CAN have 100% reuse. You can have MORE reuse then a brawler in SIMILAR GEAR. Your AA's give you MORE. The numbers you wrote are complete BS. You gave the brawlers 100% reuse on everything stating they could ask for jesters or use titanir and gave your shadowknight unbuffed and no reuse adorns numbers. Talk about being completely biased. The numbers i quotes is wearing the same gear I wear when i tank and the same gear you could wear if you wanted too.

I have 98.9% reuse in raids by default without chi or the AGI AA. If you paid attention to what i wear when i tank this is what i have. And as a shadowknight since you claim divine aura is useless i am sure you can use the reuse AA  Avenging invigoration for at least 10% putting you OVER 100% reuse or if thats to hard unholy voracity AA adds another 5% to group. So once again your number are wrong and you are either lying or you obviously dont know what you are talking about.

Neck                  8.4wrist                  8.4wrist                  8.4cloak                  8.4waist                 7.2charm                7.5Adornments       14Heroic AA           10Adornment proc 12%

That is jsut from gear. Bards(5%) and inqusitors(9.6%) give more which is why I am at 98.9% reuse. Once again the Above comparsion is 100% valid numbers and reuse if played correctly. You could even remove the belt and charm I wear and still have MORE reuse then what i have if you geared correctly OR using your OWN suggestion ask for a jester's.

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Old 02-25-2012, 12:57 AM   #156
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NB4: I don't have reuse because I take mitigation increase instead!

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Old 02-25-2012, 12:59 AM   #157
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[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

I'm not saying Monks should be nerfed. Never once have I said that. I believe other tanks need additional abilities, and base cooldowns altered, for there to be any semblance of balance however. -25% recast off the base of Furor, and in combat BL would be a decent start.

Just changing the recast time of BL to the start of the spell and not the end may fix the problem you have with it?

It being recastable at the start rather than at the end would make no difference, as I can't recast it in combat. It's literally a non-combat only ability. Similar to call of the tinkerer in that regard, to give you an exact comparison.

All tanks should be buffed to the level that Brawlers have been, to tank the content that we are currently fighting.

Shadowknights need in combat Bloodletter, and Legionnaire's Conviction should be modifiable. (Like it was in SF)

Lifetaps(Devour Vitae and Tap Veins) should also crit. (Like they did in SF)

Once those changes are in, I'll re-evaluate balance.

You do realize I agree with you on those changes and think those are balanced with bruisers as i stated before. I dont agree with the changes bruener asks for which were ridiculous. I also think strikethrough immunity should be removed and placed on avoid buffs only. And as i stated before these are the comparison for bruiser-shadowknight saves.

Inner focus  60 sec reuse                                     vs                  hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins                                                               1 ANY stoneskin

Impenetrable will 90 sec reuse  12 sec dur          vs                 Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency                                                             Avoid buff/20% potency/+hate

Unyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur             vs             Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur avoid buff/ full heal over time                                                 NO phy damage over 60% of your health.                                                                                                  Stone deaf 1 min reuse                                        vs      Legionaire Conviction 3min recast(currently nonmod) 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins                                                            40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse  1.5min dur        vs       Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse(currently nonmod), UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs                         2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min if it reaches full dur               Will be down for 1.5 min ONLY after its usedif it doesnt reach full dur it will be down longer

Ignore pain 45 sec reuse                                    vs       Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal                                                                     Its a HUGE ward  60k+Stone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur                    vs      Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction                                         No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam(this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot)                (Will stop at least one 1 shots)???????                                                               vs       New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur                                                                                       40% ALL damage reduction/Aoe rescue

You wrote this down before. There are massive problems with it. You can't just assume 100% reuse. That's a fallacy of logic. I wrote down realistic numbers between the two characters in similar gear; the SK actually had an advantage in terms of gear. There is also the fact that currently BL can't be used in combat. Until thats changed, comparing them is quite impossible.

NOTHING to assume the shadowknight CAN have 100% reuse. You can have MORE reuse then a brawler in SIMILAR GEAR. Your AA's give you MORE.

I have 98.9% reuse in raids by default without chi or the AGI AA. If you paid attention to what i wear when i tank this is what i have. And as a shadowknight since you claim divine aura is useless i am sure you can use the reuse AA  Avenging invigoration for at least 10% putting you OVER 100% reuse or if thats to hard unholy voracity AA adds another 5% to group. So once again your number are wrong and you are either lying or you obviously dont know what you are talking about.

Neck                  8.4wrist                  8.4wrist                  8.4cloak                  8.4waist                 7.2charm                7.5Adornments       14Heroic AA           10Adornment proc 12%

That is jsut from gear. Bards(5%) and inqusitors(9.6%) give more which is why I am at 98.9% reuse.

Neck                  8.4wrist                  8.4wrist                  8.4cloak                  8.4waist                 7.2 - Heroic belt. Can't be worn in difficult zones due to crit chance requirements. No red slot.charm                7.5 - Heroic charm. Can't be worn in difficult zones due to crit chance requirements. Also means you lose a red slot.Adornments       14 - If you adorn reuse over block sure. For some classes it's not as easy to cap block. We don't get 30% on both primary and secondary, so block is still valuable. Not viable.Heroic AA           10 Adornment proc 12% - Proc, hardly reliable.

That's 42% reuse that we can't get. So I have 68%. Once again, you can't assume 100% reuse. Bards don't give reuse btw.

You can not possibly do calculations with imagined reuse. I did the calculations with the reuse that both characters have, currently. They are both at exactly 68%.

With both of them at 68% reuse my numbers are correct. It's not like one character has 95% reuse and one has 50%. They have the same values.

->Why not to gear to 100% reuse as an SK

If gearing to 100% reuse would give you 100% uptime on damage prevention abilities then it would be worth it. Since you can't do that, the loss of block, hp, crit chance, and other stats isn't worth it, since 40% of the time you'll still get crushed with nothing available, and even lowered static defensive stats.

EDIT: Just as a note, of course I use the adornment and have it adorned on one of my two slots. You're still at something close to 50% uptime in comparison to 110%(You always have something up, and most of the time have multiple things up).

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Old 02-25-2012, 01:32 AM   #158
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Bruener wrote:

Wow missed a lot.

I see Blanka has blessed the forums with his presence and trolling once again.  Typical at nit-picking the fine details that is totally useless for trying to argue the blatently obvious disparities that are brought up.  Good try once again trying to deflect from the obvious.

Cory its about time you pipe in.

Dark nice write up.

Gungo seriously you just basically repeated a lot of what I did.  Remove strike through immunity (ok yeah put them on avoidance saves makes sense like we discussed early DoV).  Make BL castable in-combat....yeah, only been saying that since DoV beta.  There are a couple other things I have pointed out that are abilities that SKs need relooking at for obvious reasons....like the Mythical buff for example which is by far the weakest buff of all Fighters and arguably the weakest one of all classes.  Lifetaps being meaningless outside of solo game play being another area that needs to be addressed since so much of the class - abilities/AAs - are focused around these and they are worthless?  Manawall being such a worthless ability due to all the power intensive fights in the game.

Quabi luv the unkillable jug comment simpley because the Brawlers get all defensive about it.

Gungo you can spec a Monk to be the most effective AE tank as well simply because they CAN hold agro on AE content against raids and their abilities work just as well against AE content since unlike a Guard most of the stuff is flat duration avoidance boosts or damage reduction.

As for the lines of AE v ST those blurred a ton way too long ago.  You have supposedly ST tanks with AE target locks and snap abilities that can snap AE mobs.  You have every Fighter that can reach high levels of AE auto attack.  You have siphons from AE classes to hold AE mobs on people.  You have ST-type tank abilities that work great on AE mobs.  I mean really an optimum raid in todays game if you really wanted to have the best set up Fighter-wise would probably 2 Brawlers and 1 Guard.....throw in another Brawler for any Fight that might benefit a 4th Fighter.

There is no trolling and nit picking I just completely destroyed the guys argument without really trying I have also had your boy Quabi admit he is just being over the top calling brawlers unkillable, but wait now you are here saying monks are also the most effective ae tanks please tell me how that is possible since even if you spec for mantis so can a bruiser and they still have wild beating.  You sir are an AE tank its not blurred but hey you also are a great what did you call it again temporary emergency tank, youve builts a great niche for your class over the years with all your useless suggestions for your class.

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Old 02-25-2012, 01:36 AM   #159
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BChizzle wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Wow missed a lot.

I see Blanka has blessed the forums with his presence and trolling once again.  Typical at nit-picking the fine details that is totally useless for trying to argue the blatently obvious disparities that are brought up.  Good try once again trying to deflect from the obvious.

Cory its about time you pipe in.

Dark nice write up.

Gungo seriously you just basically repeated a lot of what I did.  Remove strike through immunity (ok yeah put them on avoidance saves makes sense like we discussed early DoV).  Make BL castable in-combat....yeah, only been saying that since DoV beta.  There are a couple other things I have pointed out that are abilities that SKs need relooking at for obvious reasons....like the Mythical buff for example which is by far the weakest buff of all Fighters and arguably the weakest one of all classes.  Lifetaps being meaningless outside of solo game play being another area that needs to be addressed since so much of the class - abilities/AAs - are focused around these and they are worthless?  Manawall being such a worthless ability due to all the power intensive fights in the game.

Quabi luv the unkillable jug comment simpley because the Brawlers get all defensive about it.

Gungo you can spec a Monk to be the most effective AE tank as well simply because they CAN hold agro on AE content against raids and their abilities work just as well against AE content since unlike a Guard most of the stuff is flat duration avoidance boosts or damage reduction.

As for the lines of AE v ST those blurred a ton way too long ago.  You have supposedly ST tanks with AE target locks and snap abilities that can snap AE mobs.  You have every Fighter that can reach high levels of AE auto attack.  You have siphons from AE classes to hold AE mobs on people.  You have ST-type tank abilities that work great on AE mobs.  I mean really an optimum raid in todays game if you really wanted to have the best set up Fighter-wise would probably 2 Brawlers and 1 Guard.....throw in another Brawler for any Fight that might benefit a 4th Fighter.

There is no trolling and nit picking I just completely destroyed the guys argument without really trying I have also had your boy Quabi admit he is just being over the top calling brawlers unkillable, but wait now you are here saying monks are also the most effective ae tanks please tell me how that is possible since even if you spec for mantis so can a bruiser and they still have wild beating.  You sir are an AE tank its not blurred but hey you also are a great what did you call it again temporary emergency tank, youve builts a great niche for your class over the years with all your useless suggestions for your class.

How did you 'destroy' my argument that a monk can always have a damage prevention ability of great enough potency to avoid death, indefinitely? Quite simply, you didn't. Having played both classes I'm infinitely more experienced than you are in the differences between them. Right now Shadowknights need a massive boost to even be comparable.

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Old 02-25-2012, 01:41 AM   #160
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Darkonx wrote:

Neck                  8.4wrist                  8.4wrist                  8.4cloak                  8.4waist                 7.2 - Heroic belt. Can't be worn in difficult zones due to crit chance requirements. No red slot.charm                7.5 - Heroic charm. Can't be worn in difficult zones due to crit chance requirements. Also means you lose a red slot.Adornments       14 - If you adorn reuse over block sure. For some classes it's not as easy to cap block. We don't get 30% on both primary and secondary, so block is still valuable. Not viable.Heroic AA           10 Adornment proc 12% - Proc, hardly reliable.

That's 42% reuse that we can't get. So I have 68%. Once again, you can't assume 100% reuse. Bards don't give reuse btw.

You can not possibly do calculations with imagined reuse. I did the calculations with the reuse that both characters have, currently. They are both at exactly 68%.

With both of them at 68% reuse my numbers are correct. It's not like one character has 95% reuse and one has 50%. They have the same values.

->Why not to gear to 100% reuse as an SK

If gearing to 100% reuse would give you 100% uptime on damage prevention abilities then it would be worth it. Since you can't do that, the loss of block, hp, crit chance, and other stats isn't worth it, since 40% of the time you'll still get crushed with nothing available, and even lowered static defensive stats.

EDIT: Just as a note, of course I use the adornment and have it adorned on one of my two slots. You're still at something close to 50% uptime in comparison to 110%(You always have something up, and most of the time have multiple things up).

This is the part were we point out you dont know what you are talking about. The charm has almost DOUBLE the crit chance of any Drunder HM charm. You flat out dont know what you are saying. Most red adorns are also complete crap. The procs on these items are just as good as most red adorns. The belt has 20% less crit chance then the Drunder HM belt but it has a proc better then almost any red adorn, 12% group crit bonus with a modifiable proc rate and 15 sec duration. Its almost always up. The 12% reuse proc is also almost always up. You actually use it. Troubs give reuse btw. Which is the group I am generally tanking in. And cheshyre/reesie almost always has fanatacism up which is another 9.6% reuse. You also are trying to LIE again by making up the basic math i litterally just gave you. 8.4x4+10=43.6 not 42.Furthermore taking block chance over reuse is dumb. First considering you are taking 1.5%/2% block chance adorns over 3-4% reuse. Also considering as a crusaders you get MORE block chance then brawlers from AA. Furthermore you no longer need to waste AA's on individual reuse reduction abilities and instead of putting points into those you free up more AA into something else. 5% block chance for at least 3 of those adornments you wear is not worth the loss of 10% reuse. Having your saves up because you just significantly reduced the recast on EVERY ability you have makes you infinitetly more survivable then the 5-10% block chance you are arguing about. Your whole crit chance argument is also crap as well I am over the crit chance cap for drunder using the gear I mentioned, including the named that debuff crit.

Furthermore YOU AS A SHADOWKNIGHT have 15% reuse from AA. Which gives you MORE then the numbers i listed. Even if you removed the belt and charm you would still have more reuse. Avenging invigoration for at least 10% putting you OVER 100% reuse and if thats to hard unholy voracity AA adds another 5% to group.

Once again 100% reuse for a shadowknight is obtainable with basic elementary understanding of this game. Everything I listed above is from non brawler specific gear I wear when i tank in raids. How you even try to argue it doesnt work and cant be worn in difficult HM drunder content is assanine. It is being worn. You are litterally making up stuff and making completely unfactual comments.

Edit: I just put up a COMPLETE side by side comparsion. The recasts for bruisers and shadowknights are NEARLY identical. And you are trying to claim that bruisers have stuff up 2x as often is complete BS. You had it right in the first place Bloodletter recastable in combat and legionaires modifiable. There is no need for you to go all bruener on the thread.

Inner focus  60 sec reuse                                     vs                  hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins                                                               1 ANY stoneskin

Impenetrable will 90 sec reuse  12 sec dur          vs                 Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency                                                             Avoid buff/20% potency/+hate

Unyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur             vs             Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur avoid buff/ full heal over time                                                 NO phy damage over 60% of your health.                                                                                                  Stone deaf 1 min reuse                                        vs      Legionaire Conviction 3min recast(currently nonmod) 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins                                                            40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse  1.5min dur        vs       Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse(currently noncombat), UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs                         2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min if it reaches full dur               Will be down for 1.5 min ONLY after its usedif it doesnt reach full dur it will be down longer

Ignore pain 45 sec reuse                                    vs       Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal                                                                     Its a HUGE ward  60k+Stone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur                    vs      Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction                                         No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam(this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot)                (Will stop at least one 1 shots)???????                                                               vs       New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur                                                                                       40% ALL damage reduction/Aoe rescue

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Old 02-25-2012, 01:42 AM   #161
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Darkonx wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Wow missed a lot.

I see Blanka has blessed the forums with his presence and trolling once again.  Typical at nit-picking the fine details that is totally useless for trying to argue the blatently obvious disparities that are brought up.  Good try once again trying to deflect from the obvious.

Cory its about time you pipe in.

Dark nice write up.

Gungo seriously you just basically repeated a lot of what I did.  Remove strike through immunity (ok yeah put them on avoidance saves makes sense like we discussed early DoV).  Make BL castable in-combat....yeah, only been saying that since DoV beta.  There are a couple other things I have pointed out that are abilities that SKs need relooking at for obvious reasons....like the Mythical buff for example which is by far the weakest buff of all Fighters and arguably the weakest one of all classes.  Lifetaps being meaningless outside of solo game play being another area that needs to be addressed since so much of the class - abilities/AAs - are focused around these and they are worthless?  Manawall being such a worthless ability due to all the power intensive fights in the game.

Quabi luv the unkillable jug comment simpley because the Brawlers get all defensive about it.

Gungo you can spec a Monk to be the most effective AE tank as well simply because they CAN hold agro on AE content against raids and their abilities work just as well against AE content since unlike a Guard most of the stuff is flat duration avoidance boosts or damage reduction.

As for the lines of AE v ST those blurred a ton way too long ago.  You have supposedly ST tanks with AE target locks and snap abilities that can snap AE mobs.  You have every Fighter that can reach high levels of AE auto attack.  You have siphons from AE classes to hold AE mobs on people.  You have ST-type tank abilities that work great on AE mobs.  I mean really an optimum raid in todays game if you really wanted to have the best set up Fighter-wise would probably 2 Brawlers and 1 Guard.....throw in another Brawler for any Fight that might benefit a 4th Fighter.

There is no trolling and nit picking I just completely destroyed the guys argument without really trying I have also had your boy Quabi admit he is just being over the top calling brawlers unkillable, but wait now you are here saying monks are also the most effective ae tanks please tell me how that is possible since even if you spec for mantis so can a bruiser and they still have wild beating.  You sir are an AE tank its not blurred but hey you also are a great what did you call it again temporary emergency tank, youve builts a great niche for your class over the years with all your useless suggestions for your class.

How did you 'destroy' my argument that a monk can always have a damage prevention ability of great enough potency to avoid death, indefinitely? Quite simply, you didn't. Having played both classes I'm infinitely more experienced than you are in the differences between them. Right now Shadowknights need a massive boost to even be comparable.

Shadowknights have tanked the same content brawlers have, end of story, both can get the job done, but when you need an emergency tank call Bruener.  The buffs you guys are even asking for are a joke and really wouldnt make any of a difference because you still aren't getting to the core of things as usual.  Really your ideas are a joke I am glad SOE doesn't listen.

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Old 02-25-2012, 02:47 AM   #162
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Darkonx wrote:

Damager wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

I love this ROFL

You should say quoted again after editing from not knowing several of the mechanics/abilities/abilities mechanics.

What is it really dude like 5 abilities so far you had messed up in some way shape form from the original? And you still think people are taking you seriously? Funny, Total denial, But funny.

 This is why Devs dont read this stuff /shrug

 The cant die for 90s needs edited btw, and the beginning where you say dont cast nothing till 90s is up and then hit tsunami after the death prevent  comes down needs edited btw.

Hardly. I labeled one ability as 25s instead of 24s. Meditative mending isn't altered by potency. Cool.

You don't have to cast anything while your DI is up. Dying every 30 seconds means you're dying more than once per AE set, which isn't going to happen if your healers are pressing buttons.

You don't spec for 3 triggers of your DI, and you think Superior Guard is a ward. Your input means less than nothing to anyone who plays this game at a remotely high level.

Really? You spent a whole page trying to tell people how OP mending is, had people so convinced they where crunching numbers trying to get 40%, throwing in a single mob fight to get another 200 potency while Im laughing telling you to look at ACT, It isnt modifiable yet your ranting on and on how you know, blah blah can stack it with this and that rofl

I find it almost impossible that you have MTd with a brawler in HM raid before.

1 death per AE set? with nothing up but DI? heh Come on man Have you ever MTd a HM mob on your monk seriously? I know you said in the other thread you tanked everything which makes me really surprised your the MT for #1 WW progression raid on your monk.

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Old 02-25-2012, 04:35 AM   #163
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Your forgetting that yeah, the stuff is kind of comparable, but BRAWLERs have Strikethrough Immunity, making it completely uncontested.

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Old 02-25-2012, 11:02 AM   #164
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Your forgetting that yeah, the stuff is kind of comparable, but BRAWLERs have Strikethrough Immunity, making it completely uncontested.

OMG An avoidance tank avoided a few hits who would have thought of that one before.

Zerkers got nerfed because of solo players and PvP

SKs got nerfed because of Free 2 Play

If brawlers get nerfed it would be because of a few forum trolls rather than a concrete in game reason.

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Old 02-25-2012, 11:05 AM   #165
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BChizzle wrote:

Shadowknights have tanked the same content brawlers have, end of story, both can get the job done, but when you need an emergency tank call Bruener.  The buffs you guys are even asking for are a joke and really wouldnt make any of a difference because you still aren't getting to the core of things as usual.  Really your ideas are a joke I am glad SOE doesn't listen.

By your own claims you tanked everything in TSO on your Monk as well.  It was obviously balanced back than and needs to revert back to that type of balance.

Really Blanka.  The only arguments you ever come up with are trying to disclaim the super fine details on others arguments in attempts to deflect from the issue.  You played a super OP'd class.  I told you this back in DoV.  People saw it come in SF.  And you still claim differently.  Maybe you are just that terrible that you can't even recognize how OP'd your class has to be in order for you to be decent at this game.

What is the "core" of things to you?  Making BL castable in combat, removing strike through immunity so they could balance it, fixing Lifetaps to be effective in end-game raiding, fixing the next to useless abilities like the Mythical buff and Manawall to you seems useless?  I mean really why are people like you and Gungo so afraid of them actually closing the gap to balance things?  Worried about being out of a job?

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Old 02-25-2012, 11:13 AM   #166
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Novusod wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Your forgetting that yeah, the stuff is kind of comparable, but BRAWLERs have Strikethrough Immunity, making it completely uncontested.

OMG An avoidance tank avoided a few hits who would have thought of that one before.

Zerkers got nerfed because of solo players and PvP

SKs got nerfed because of Free 2 Play

If brawlers get nerfed it would be because of a few forum trolls rather than a concrete in game reason.

This guy is just killing me with his arguments.  F2P causes certain Fighters to be underpowered.....so that is balanced?  People like you should not even be able to post because your arguments are so out of this realm its quite ridiculous.

If Brawlers get nerfed its because it has been long, long over due.  You guys have enjoyed your "reign" longer than any other supposed OP'd Fighter class and the status of how OP'd you are compared to other Fighters is a lot larger than what others supposedly enjoyed in the past.

Do you know why SKs seemed OP'd in TSO?  Their offensive capability.  They were still probably the 3rd-4th most survivable fighter its just that in that xpac that extra survivability was unneeded.  People went with the Fighter that was the most offensive than.  Do you know how this differs from Brawlers?  Brawlers not only push for being extremely offensive but they are also leap years ahead in survivability (a lot like the RoK Mythical Guard).  They have both in a game that has made Fighter DPS a non-factor along with making every Fighter able to hold agro off of a raid easily with the right set up.  They have made it all about that survivability and moving into PoW that hasn't changed at all.

Until we see some major mechanic changes that make that large survivability advantage less meaningful (like when they nerf mobs down a ton and people killing at that time don't notice the difference) Brawlers will continue to be extremely OP'd compared to others and deserving of nerfs.

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Old 02-25-2012, 03:06 PM   #167
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Bruener wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Shadowknights have tanked the same content brawlers have, end of story, both can get the job done, but when you need an emergency tank call Bruener.  The buffs you guys are even asking for are a joke and really wouldnt make any of a difference because you still aren't getting to the core of things as usual.  Really your ideas are a joke I am glad SOE doesn't listen.

Really Blanka.  The only arguments you ever come up with are trying to disclaim the super fine details on others arguments in attempts to deflect from the issue. 

I wouldnt say undisputably proving someone is completely wrong on how an ability works fine details (Especialy someone saying they heal 40-50%). How many times did we get the "I KNOW" because this "I KNOW" because of that, he even gave fake examples of what to do, REALLY? Obviously he has never done it because it doesnt work. And still wants people to take his word on his math / timing knowledge of other abilities blah blah. That sir is destroying someones credibility. 

I mean just read that write up, everyone that has ever MTd a HM mob is laughing. Sure you can on paper make it look like brawlers are unstoppable but go do it and reality hits you in the face. I can give examples all day why that wouldnt work but at the rate of what a full page of arguing over just mending /sigh something comon knowledge to even me the noob monk rofl it would take a month to rip it down to the point he understands reality.

Anyone that has ever MTd with a brawler on HM or even alot of EM has been hit through all 3 death prevents in seconds, been one shotted, has been stunned, stifled, p0wer drained , cursed, knocked around, killed by red text blah blah blah and yet you want us to believe you are magically immune to everything and can time all the abilities to perfection and never die. /sigh   

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Old 02-25-2012, 03:52 PM   #168
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Damager wrote:

Bruener wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Shadowknights have tanked the same content brawlers have, end of story, both can get the job done, but when you need an emergency tank call Bruener.  The buffs you guys are even asking for are a joke and really wouldnt make any of a difference because you still aren't getting to the core of things as usual.  Really your ideas are a joke I am glad SOE doesn't listen.

Really Blanka.  The only arguments you ever come up with are trying to disclaim the super fine details on others arguments in attempts to deflect from the issue. 

I wouldnt say undisputably proving someone is completely wrong on how an ability works fine details (Especialy someone saying they heal 40-50%). How many times did we get the "I KNOW" because this "I KNOW" because of that, he even gave fake examples of what to do, REALLY? Obviously he has never done it because it doesnt work. And still wants people to take his word on his math / timing knowledge of other abilities blah blah. That sir is destroying someones credibility. 

I mean just read that write up, everyone that has ever MTd a HM mob is laughing. Sure you can on paper make it look like brawlers are unstoppable but go do it and reality hits you in the face. I can give examples all day why that wouldnt work but at the rate of what a full page of arguing over just mending /sigh something comon knowledge to even me the noob monk rofl it would take a month to rip it down to the point he understands reality.

Anyone that has ever MTd with a brawler on HM or even alot of EM has been hit through all 3 death prevents in seconds, been one shotted, has been stunned, stifled, p0wer drained , cursed, knocked around, killed by red text blah blah blah and yet you want us to believe you are magically immune to everything and can time all the abilities to perfection and never die. /sigh   

Yeah, i'm sure anyone can stand infront of red text and die like an idiot, but we are talking about tank balance, i'm sure your brawler can stand there like a boss and stand in red text dieing over and over, but you know?  Other tanks can't even do that.

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Old 02-25-2012, 04:22 PM   #169
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Bruener wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Shadowknights have tanked the same content brawlers have, end of story, both can get the job done, but when you need an emergency tank call Bruener.  The buffs you guys are even asking for are a joke and really wouldnt make any of a difference because you still aren't getting to the core of things as usual.  Really your ideas are a joke I am glad SOE doesn't listen.

By your own claims you tanked everything in TSO on your Monk as well.  It was obviously balanced back than and needs to revert back to that type of balance.

Really Blanka.  The only arguments you ever come up with are trying to disclaim the super fine details on others arguments in attempts to deflect from the issue.  You played a super OP'd class.  I told you this back in DoV.  People saw it come in SF.  And you still claim differently.  Maybe you are just that terrible that you can't even recognize how OP'd your class has to be in order for you to be decent at this game.

What is the "core" of things to you?  Making BL castable in combat, removing strike through immunity so they could balance it, fixing Lifetaps to be effective in end-game raiding, fixing the next to useless abilities like the Mythical buff and Manawall to you seems useless?  I mean really why are people like you and Gungo so afraid of them actually closing the gap to balance things?  Worried about being out of a job?

I have NEVER advocated not balancing classes but unlike you I dont request assasnine unbalanced suggestions like giving shadowknights t1 dps, or making all heals crit and be effected by potency. When we already know it was nerfed because it was COMNPLETELY broken for solo and pvp. In fact They still need to make sure NO % based heals are effected by potency because they are and that is broken. The problem with you bruener is you have always asked for EVERYTHING every other tank has and want a completely OP class. You complain about your dps  and then cry that guards who are the worst dps fighter tank better then you. You cry brawlers benefit more from block chance even though your class naturally benefits more from mit %, You cry if any tank does anything better then you. You litterally ask for everything. You suck enough at your class that you come on this board exclaiming shadowknights cant tank stuff and then find out shadowknights HAVE tanked it and then backtrack your statements. The problem has always been you cant play a class that isnt overpowered.

Its like the shadowknight mythical. Who the hell cares if shadowknights dont have the BEST fighter mythical weapon. Heck the guaridan mythical is complete crap. As long as a shadowknight is balanced with BRUISERS and BEZERKERS it doesnt matter. Its not like the shadowknight mythical is useless either. It gives a great clickly and SOME hate you cant get anywhere else but the mythical. But for you bruener it becomes a huge problem, Because you feel shadowknights need to have the best mythical. Be the highest dps fighter, tank every hardmode as well as monks and guards, and just because it bothers you be similar dps to assassins. I am actually surprised you havent made a new thread yet proclaiming your shadowknight should be parsing close to beastlords. Its pretty much your entire MO on this forum.

Removing strikethrough from defensive stance and placing it on avoid buffs and the changes darkonx have stated when he doesnt go all bruener with his ranting. Will make shadowknights just as good if not better then bruisers. BL in combat, legionares modifiable. That is all that is needed. Just look at the comparison of temps I have put up. That would make every save nearly identical for use.

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Old 02-25-2012, 05:26 PM   #170
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[email protected] wrote:

Bruener wrote:

BChizzle wrote:

Shadowknights have tanked the same content brawlers have, end of story, both can get the job done, but when you need an emergency tank call Bruener.  The buffs you guys are even asking for are a joke and really wouldnt make any of a difference because you still aren't getting to the core of things as usual.  Really your ideas are a joke I am glad SOE doesn't listen.

By your own claims you tanked everything in TSO on your Monk as well.  It was obviously balanced back than and needs to revert back to that type of balance.

Really Blanka.  The only arguments you ever come up with are trying to disclaim the super fine details on others arguments in attempts to deflect from the issue.  You played a super OP'd class.  I told you this back in DoV.  People saw it come in SF.  And you still claim differently.  Maybe you are just that terrible that you can't even recognize how OP'd your class has to be in order for you to be decent at this game.

What is the "core" of things to you?  Making BL castable in combat, removing strike through immunity so they could balance it, fixing Lifetaps to be effective in end-game raiding, fixing the next to useless abilities like the Mythical buff and Manawall to you seems useless?  I mean really why are people like you and Gungo so afraid of them actually closing the gap to balance things?  Worried about being out of a job?

I have NEVER advocated not balancing classes but unlike you I dont request assasnine unbalanced suggestions like giving shadowknights t1 dps, or making all heals crit and be effected by potency. When we already know it was nerfed because it was COMNPLETELY broken for solo and pvp. In fact They still need to make sure NO % based heals are effected by potency because they are and that is broken. The problem with you bruener is you have always asked for EVERYTHING every other tank has and want a completely OP class. You complain about your dps  and then cry that guards who are the worst dps fighter tank better then you. You cry brawlers benefit more from block chance even though your class naturally benefits more from mit %, You cry if any tank does anything better then you. You litterally ask for everything. You suck enough at your class that you come on this board exclaiming shadowknights cant tank stuff and then find out shadowknights HAVE tanked it and then backtrack your statements. The problem has always been you cant play a class that isnt overpowered.

Its like the shadowknight mythical. Who the hell cares if shadowknights dont have the BEST fighter mythical weapon. Heck the guaridan mythical is complete crap. As long as a shadowknight is balanced with BRUISERS and BEZERKERS it doesnt matter. Its not like the shadowknight mythical is useless either. It gives a great clickly and SOME hate you cant get anywhere else but the mythical. But for you bruener it becomes a huge problem, Because you feel shadowknights need to have the best mythical. Be the highest dps fighter, tank every hardmode as well as monks and guards, and just because it bothers you be similar dps to assassins. I am actually surprised you havent made a new thread yet proclaiming your shadowknight should be parsing close to beastlords. Its pretty much your entire MO on this forum.

Removing strikethrough from defensive stance and placing it on avoid buffs and the changes darkonx have stated when he doesnt go all bruener with his ranting. Will make shadowknights just as good if not better then bruisers. BL in combat, legionares modifiable. That is all that is needed. Just look at the comparison of temps I have put up. That would make every save nearly identical for use.

See what you do here?  You post a long post that is just full of garbage statements that are untrue, specifically everything that you THINK I said.

DPS.  All I have ever said is that the gap between T1 DPS and everybody else since DoV has gotten too large and needs to shrink.  Something again acknowledged by Devs at FF.

Fighter Heals.  I have never been an advocate for % based heals to be anything more than the flat % they say.  In fact the heal crit nerf in general didn't even bother me that much because unlike a lot of people I knew at that time how little Fighter heals actually did in end game content on my SK.  Its also why I think there needs to be some other type of mechanic to make the heals actually useful.  Like Atans idea for an overflow ward.

Guards.  I was a huge advocate in SF to get Guards the defensive capabilties they have while raising their agro.  I was not an advocate to give them just more DPS like some Guards were asking for.  This was hugely more beneficial for them.  I also think Guards work like they are supposed to since unlike Brawlers their abilities are hugely ST focused while Brawler abilities just plain are the best in both AE and ST.  Guards also have less DPS while for some reason Brawlers think it is now ok for them to be both the most Defensive tank and Offensive tank....AT THE SAME TIME.

Me playing my class.  I am arguably the best SK that plays this game.  I can go up against any other SK and will be the best.  I am driven as a player just like I am driven in real life and this game is a whole lot easier than RL.  I out tank any tank that has ever played around me pre-TSO and post-TSO.  Anybody that has actually played with me I have the utmost certainty would agree.  I have played with some of the BEST players in classes this game has ever seen that has played in number 1 guilds WW and they would tell you the same thing.  Do not question my ability as a player because you obviously don't know.  Now I know for a fact you cannot say the same thing and at best from everything I have heard from multiple people that have played with you....mediocre at best.

The SK Mythical is junk.  Sorry it always has been.  It does not work as a good save since it is such a long recast on the clicky and such a restriction.  The proc is terrible because it relies on a mechanic that doesn't work in end game like it should (see the section about Fighter heals).  If I "lifetap" heal myself for 300 hps I get a whole 900 hate per second.  These are realistic numbers.  The splurt only works on a few spells and the DPS gain from them is unnoticeable.  It is by far the worst Mythical buff of Fighters and was due for a change the day they made Mythicals and everybody knew it.

Removing strike through is a necessity for the health of the mechanics of the game.  Simply doing that isn't going to even come close to touching what Brawlers currently have...which is a lot more abilities on faster reuses.  BL in-combat is a no brainer and even with that still is not as good as Tenacity since the reuse timer would not start until the procs expire leaving a lot larger gap than Tenacity as well as 1 less trigger and the reliance of having a group for it to proc.  It would still be an "oh crap" my healers messed up type of ability versus a proactive "incoming AE" ability for AEs like Tenacity.  I don't agree with Lego being modifiable because they lowered the reuse to 2 minutes.  That is fine for that ability imo.  I do think Lifetaps need to be made effective for end game content though more than anything and straight heal numbers are never going to do it.  Wards seem to be the only effective heal to have if you actually have healers that are awake...hence Atan's idea of the overcap ward being a good one to actually make them useful.

Really only a few Brawlers are arguing otherwise and nobody is suprised by that.  But we have people of multiple classes that know exactly how things work.  There is absolutely no reason at all to use anything but Brawlers in end game content.  None.  The only reason other Fighter classes are even raiding is because they have been for a long time and refuse to reroll.  This has gone on for way too long and needs a change.

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Old 02-25-2012, 08:16 PM   #171
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Damager wrote:

I wouldnt say undisputably proving someone is completely wrong on how an ability works fine details (Especialy someone saying they heal 40-50%). How many times did we get the "I KNOW" because this "I KNOW" because of that, he even gave fake examples of what to do, REALLY? Obviously he has never done it because it doesnt work. And still wants people to take his word on his math / timing knowledge of other abilities blah blah. That sir is destroying someones credibility. 

I mean just read that write up, everyone that has ever MTd a HM mob is laughing. Sure you can on paper make it look like brawlers are unstoppable but go do it and reality hits you in the face. I can give examples all day why that wouldnt work but at the rate of what a full page of arguing over just mending /sigh something comon knowledge to even me the noob monk rofl it would take a month to rip it down to the point he understands reality.

Anyone that has ever MTd with a brawler on HM or even alot of EM has been hit through all 3 death prevents in seconds, been one shotted, has been stunned, stifled, p0wer drained , cursed, knocked around, killed by red text blah blah blah and yet you want us to believe you are magically immune to everything and can time all the abilities to perfection and never die. /sigh   

Yeah, i'm sure anyone can stand infront of red text and die like an idiot, but we are talking about tank balance, i'm sure your brawler can stand there like a boss and stand in red text dieing over and over, but you know?  Other tanks can't even do that.

Heh, yeah just as Cory said...

Corydonn wrote:

I'm unkillable, Just the rest of my group dies and I sit there in eternal gridlock with the mob until I get bored enough to FD.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:24 AM   #172
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Everything I have said in that post bruener I can provide links for in this forums. There is no point in backtrackign your statements.

You literally stated a good shadowknight should outparse an equally geared mediocre assassin.

You JUST stated in this thread all shadowknights heals should crit.

and you have been complaining about guards outtanking you since 2006.

You stated in this forum on multiple occasions until i pointed out to you that dark has maintanked everything we killed on a shadowknight that a shadowknight is unable to tank certain encounters.

So what point are you trying to deny? The fact you want your offensive crusaders to be a high dps, maintank, aoe class with superior aoe hate? Because you seem to have your hand in everyones cookie jar.

and your comments about my ability is laughable. I could give you multiple examples of outtanking your "source", but he seems to have an issue with anyone outplaying him. If you dont beleive me send a tell to maergoth and ask him why he left strike. Your "source" also said maergoth was complete crap and yet maergoth seems to be doing fine in equillibrium. So I would take your sources opinion with the grain of salt in which it is.

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Old 02-26-2012, 10:35 AM   #173
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[email protected] wrote:

Everything I have said in that post bruener I can provide links for in this forums. There is no point in backtrackign your statements.

You literally stated a good shadowknight should outparse an equally geared mediocre assassin.

Yes people that are a lot better going fully offensive should outparse people that are terrible at their class, even if they are T1.  Closing the gap as I said would mean this would happen.  This is no different than how the game operated pre-DoV consistently.  If you are bad it should be noticeable....not bearable.

You JUST stated in this thread all shadowknights heals should crit.

Yeah no brainer.  Obviously no % based heals should crit.  They never should have.  Really stop acting like Blanka pretending that you don't know exactly what I am talking about.  Any non-% heal for ALL classes should crit simply because it is bad mechanic design to not have them do it, making them totally fail at scaling.  Outside of that you completely ignore the fact that the heal crit nerf didn't even bother me much except for the mechanics of scaling.  Even back when heals were critting they were ineffective in raid content because they are flat heals and most of the time they do nothing.  10-15 minute fights last night of me tanking large amounts of adds and my LIFETAPS healed me a whole 400 HPS.  They are ineffective and need some mechanic to make them useful in raiding but in a scaling way that doesn't make them OP'd in heroic.

and you have been complaining about guards outtanking you since 2006.

I pointed out the obvious about Guards in RoK with their Mythicals that everybody and their brother knew were OP'd compared to the other Fighters....a lot like Brawlers since DoV.  Other than that since TSO I posted ideas to make Guards better, but not by simply adding DPS like a lot of unintelligent people wanted.  My goal was to push the Guard into a more defensive, and defensive utility tank like they should be.  It happened at the end of SF with their fixes and since Guards are in good shape.  A raid greatly benefits by having a Guard in raid even if they aren't doing the majority of the tanking...after all why use them over a Brawler?

You stated in this forum on multiple occasions until i pointed out to you that dark has maintanked everything we killed on a shadowknight that a shadowknight is unable to tank certain encounters.

I have never said something was unkillable by a SK.  I said it is a lot more difficult and with certain set ups is unkillable.  Classic recent example is clearing HM EoW with a solo healer.  Something that is very easy for a Brawler to do but I would debate not doable with a non-Brawler.  Unless of course you put a Brawler in the group with them to give them their huge avoidance buff along with tanking half the mobs.  Again showing the disparity in Brawlers.

So what point are you trying to deny? The fact you want your offensive crusaders to be a high dps, maintank, aoe class with superior aoe hate? Because you seem to have your hand in everyones cookie jar.

I will spell it out for you again since you just can't seem to understand.  I want the DPS difference between T1 classes and everybody else to shrink.  T1 should still be top DPS, just not by 3x the DPS over everybody else.  I am completely fine dividing tanks int MT and OT type classes.  My problem is Brawlers own both right now by a long shot due to their abilities on faster reuse and getting hit way less often with mechanics all aimed towards punishing those being hit.  Honestly all the areas that you just mentioned are ALL the areas Brawlers succeed in.  That is the problem.

and your comments about my ability is laughable. I could give you multiple examples of outtanking your "source", but he seems to have an issue with anyone outplaying him. If you dont beleive me send a tell to maergoth and ask him why he left strike. Your "source" also said maergoth was complete crap and yet maergoth seems to be doing fine in equillibrium. So I would take your sources opinion with the grain of salt in which it is.

You make it sound like I have 1 source.  You really have been a joke of the community for a long time.  Maergoth is doing fine.  I don't think he is a terrible player.  But don't be mistaken, if Jeal came back Maergoth would be side-lined in no time.  There is a difference between good and excellent.

Lets see those posts.  Stop deflecting more.  Compared to other tanks Brawlers are way over the top and there is no reason in ANY situation to use anything but one.

If you are such an advocate for balance than just stop posting.  There is obvious disparity and nobody is asking for anything more than what they probably need to compete tool-wise.

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Old 02-26-2012, 12:48 PM   #174
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Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Everything I have said in that post bruener I can provide links for in this forums. There is no point in backtrackign your statements.

You literally stated a good shadowknight should outparse an equally geared mediocre assassin.

Yes people that are a lot better going fully offensive should outparse people that are terrible at their class, even if they are T1.  Closing the gap as I said would mean this would happen.  This is no different than how the game operated pre-DoV consistently.  If you are bad it should be noticeable....not bearable.

You JUST stated in this thread all shadowknights heals should crit.

Yeah no brainer.  Obviously no % based heals should crit.  They never should have.  Really stop acting like Blanka pretending that you don't know exactly what I am talking about.  Any non-% heal for ALL classes should crit simply because it is bad mechanic design to not have them do it, making them totally fail at scaling.  Outside of that you completely ignore the fact that the heal crit nerf didn't even bother me much except for the mechanics of scaling.  Even back when heals were critting they were ineffective in raid content because they are flat heals and most of the time they do nothing.  10-15 minute fights last night of me tanking large amounts of adds and my LIFETAPS healed me a whole 400 HPS.  They are ineffective and need some mechanic to make them useful in raiding but in a scaling way that doesn't make them OP'd in heroic.

and you have been complaining about guards outtanking you since 2006.

I pointed out the obvious about Guards in RoK with their Mythicals that everybody and their brother knew were OP'd compared to the other Fighters....a lot like Brawlers since DoV.  Other than that since TSO I posted ideas to make Guards better, but not by simply adding DPS like a lot of unintelligent people wanted.  My goal was to push the Guard into a more defensive, and defensive utility tank like they should be.  It happened at the end of SF with their fixes and since Guards are in good shape.  A raid greatly benefits by having a Guard in raid even if they aren't doing the majority of the tanking...after all why use them over a Brawler?

You stated in this forum on multiple occasions until i pointed out to you that dark has maintanked everything we killed on a shadowknight that a shadowknight is unable to tank certain encounters.

I have never said something was unkillable by a SK.  I said it is a lot more difficult and with certain set ups is unkillable.  Classic recent example is clearing HM EoW with a solo healer.  Something that is very easy for a Brawler to do but I would debate not doable with a non-Brawler.  Unless of course you put a Brawler in the group with them to give them their huge avoidance buff along with tanking half the mobs.  Again showing the disparity in Brawlers.

So what point are you trying to deny? The fact you want your offensive crusaders to be a high dps, maintank, aoe class with superior aoe hate? Because you seem to have your hand in everyones cookie jar.

I will spell it out for you again since you just can't seem to understand.  I want the DPS difference between T1 classes and everybody else to shrink.  T1 should still be top DPS, just not by 3x the DPS over everybody else.  I am completely fine dividing tanks int MT and OT type classes.  My problem is Brawlers own both right now by a long shot due to their abilities on faster reuse and getting hit way less often with mechanics all aimed towards punishing those being hit.  Honestly all the areas that you just mentioned are ALL the areas Brawlers succeed in.  That is the problem.

and your comments about my ability is laughable. I could give you multiple examples of outtanking your "source", but he seems to have an issue with anyone outplaying him. If you dont beleive me send a tell to maergoth and ask him why he left strike. Your "source" also said maergoth was complete crap and yet maergoth seems to be doing fine in equillibrium. So I would take your sources opinion with the grain of salt in which it is.

You make it sound like I have 1 source.  You really have been a joke of the community for a long time.  Maergoth is doing fine.  I don't think he is a terrible player.  But don't be mistaken, if Jeal came back Maergoth would be side-lined in no time.  There is a difference between good and excellent.

Lets see those posts.  Stop deflecting more.  Compared to other tanks Brawlers are way over the top and there is no reason in ANY situation to use anything but one.

If you are such an advocate for balance than just stop posting.  There is obvious disparity and nobody is asking for anything more than what they probably need to compete tool-wise.

You dont have any other "sources" sunshine. I know this for a fact because I get way to many tells when i log in sayign thank god i logged on when other tanks are beign failboat. 

And your other comments pretty much just confirmed everything i stated. No matter how you try to sugar coat it.  You want your shadowknight to compete with t1, you want heal crits even though they were already considered overpowered and you still complain about guards who are the most defensive tank out tanking you.

All the areas i mentioned brawlers exceed in is bogus if your MONKs out tank you on AOE content then I dont need to question your ability you already confirmed you are crap. monks are better maintanka and bruisers are better offtanks then monks. WHICH IS WHY I SAID SHADOWKNIGHTS NEED TO BE BALANCED WITH BRUISERS. not the monks and guards you constantly whine about.

These are no deflection these are FACTS. Something you lack. I post because you dont know mechanics or what you are talking about and then go all bruener on threads asking for assasnine overpowered suggestions. In fact i would say these forums as a whole now are fairly reasonable. Beyond you and talathion i think everyone elses suggestions and posts are fairly valid. However I will make a deal with you. I will stop posting if you stop posting.

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Old 02-26-2012, 05:12 PM   #175
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[email protected] wrote:

You dont have any other "sources" sunshine. I know this for a fact because I get way to many tells when i log in sayign thank god i logged on when other tanks are beign failboat. 

And your other comments pretty much just confirmed everything i stated. No matter how you try to sugar coat it.  You want your shadowknight to compete with t1, you want heal crits even though they were already considered overpowered and you still complain about guards who are the most defensive tank out tanking you.

All the areas i mentioned brawlers exceed in is bogus if your MONKs out tank you on AOE content then I dont need to question your ability you already confirmed you are crap. monks are better maintanka and bruisers are better offtanks then monks. WHICH IS WHY I SAID SHADOWKNIGHTS NEED TO BE BALANCED WITH BRUISERS. not the monks and guards you constantly whine about.

These are no deflection these are FACTS. Something you lack. I post because you dont know mechanics or what you are talking about and then go all bruener on threads asking for assasnine overpowered suggestions. In fact i would say these forums as a whole now are fairly reasonable. Beyond you and talathion i think everyone elses suggestions and posts are fairly valid. However I will make a deal with you. I will stop posting if you stop posting.

Only you would get that out of what I typed.  Everybody else I am sure had np knowing exactly what I was talking about.

The reason you get tells when you log in is because you play an OP'd class.  Your class makes things easier.

I am not going to re-explain everything I just typed to you again.  You failed at understanding it and missed the point completely.  It is written plain as day and really at this point its clear you just can't understand.

When it comes to AE content there is just a few areas to look at for it.  You have agro, snap agro, and survivability for AE.  A Monk can easily sustain AE agro for AE content with the set ups you need for hate anyway.  Monks can have superior AE snap control.  And Monk abilities ARE far superior in AE situations.  I will give you though that they are BETTER MTs than Bruisers just like Bruisers are BETTER OTs than Monks.  That doesn't mean that they both aren't in the number 2 position for MT/OT.

But really we can play that game and compare Zerkers and SKs to Bruisers if you want.  Bruiser survivability far exceeds either SKs or Bezerkers.  Their avoidance is much larger, strike through immune, stoneskins on ripostes, avoidance saves actually avoiding 100%, etc.  They tank with a 2h or DW which ends up giving them by far the highest amount of auto attack DPS, especially when they are going 100% AE auto to control mobs.  They have more snaps on faster reuse.  Their saves are up faster.  Their Death Save has more triggers, can be cast in-combat, does not drain the groups health, and can proc solo.  While tanking groups of mobs they will be proc'ing their 30% damage reduction for 3 seconds every 10 seconds....if they happen to actually get hit.  They only end up with like 500 less mitigation.  They have 360 avoidance which is massive with groups of mobs that are designed to get behind tanks.  Oh, and they are the second best MT in the game for being an "OT" type of class.

If the push is to balance AE v ST than there would need to be some massive over-hauls in a lot of classes.

Really though that is just being ignorant.  Asking for the Strike Through mechanic to work, making BL castable in-combat, reworking Lifetaps to actually be effective in raiding, AND asking for fixes to abilities that DO NOT WORK like they were intended is hardly asking for a lot.  I could put it in red for you guys so you know how simple it is.

Remove Strike Through immunity to utilize the strike through mechanic correctly

Make Bloodletter castable in-combat

Fix Lifetaps to work in end-game

Fix the SK Mythical proc to actually do something

Fix Manawall to be a reliable save

Obviously there would need to be similar lists for Paladins and Zerkers.  Do these things, re-evaluate and see what needs to be tweaked from there.

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Old 02-26-2012, 09:18 PM   #176
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A cool line for warriors would be "The agility stat adds additional mitigation and strength to warriors." this would allow warriors to use chain armor/benefit from using scout jewelry.

Juggernaut doing something would be cool.

A Dualwield And Shield Line for Warriors would be cool.

Shadow's line that improves Shield+1h/1h+1h Damage.

Strikethrough Line.

Wisdom Line changed to a Shield/Tank Tree/Decent Tanking Endline.

Agility Line Changed to either give 40% AOE autoattack or 40% Strikethrough so it benefits the warriors equally.

- Dragoon's Reflexes being given strikethrough immunity so it works.

Shadowknight:Shadowknight's Furor being given Strikethrough Immunity so it works.

Lifetaps actually doing as much as brawlers avoidance heal wise/adding a ward to the SK when hes being overhealed by them.

Offensive Stance turning Shadowknight into a DPS Class, lowering there mitigation to chain armor/Lowering Heal Amount by (What it currently is now.) and improving Autoattack damage from two handed weapons by 20%/Raising Spell damage by 20% and adding 10% Spell Double Attack Chance, also making the Shadowknight unable to use a shield, Also reducing threat the shadowknight Generates by 50%.

Paladin:Offensive Stance being changed to a healer stance, giving the paladin 30% Cast Speed+Reuse, 50% Base Heal Amount, Adding Healing Criticals, but Lowering Auto-attack Damage by 25% and Spell/Combat Art Damage by 25%, Also Reducing the threat the paladin generates by 50%.

Allowing Paladins to heal in raids/groups.

Unique Class Abilitys, this would allow a 4th healer (Paladin), making HM Raid Content a bit easier and adding Shadowknight as a Plate Mage with a sword type DPS Class with additional abilities to heal itself.

Other Ideas:

Offensive Stances for Warriors Lowering Mitigation to chain/also lowering threat, but giving the caster 25% Combat Art Damage/25% Autoattack Damage/15% In-Combat Movement Speed/15% Flurry Chance.

All Non-Brawler Tanks:

Add Damage Reduction instead of Mitigation increase to Defensive Stances/Improving Threat.

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Old 02-26-2012, 11:33 PM   #177
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There are a couple of key things you guys keep forgetting about.

Firstly the supposed brawler DoV era is nothing like the domination Guardians had in RoK. It was a monopoly for guardians in RoK. Do you even understand the meaning of the word monopoly. It is a combination of the latin words mono meaning one and poly meaning selection. So monopoly meant one selection and that is what RoK was like with Guardians. You either raided with guardian MT or you didn't raid at all in RoK. TSO was the same way only with SK being the main GoTo tank everyone needed. DoV is nothing like that. There is actually competition now between the tanks in DoV unlike in previous eras. For all the advantages brawlers have the class is still not actually needed for anything. Secondly everything in DoV can be and IS routinely killed without a brawler in raid. There is a difference between being nice to have and having a clear monopoly. If there really was a brawler monopoly then people like Bruener would NOT be raiding.

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Old 02-27-2012, 12:50 AM   #178
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The most we've been balanced was in SF, before critical healing was nerfed because of solo/pvp, which doesn't matter anymore because of mercenerys and healing procs and beastlords completely dominated fighters in solo (heroics even.) aspect of the game.

Brawler's Utility/Defense Ability completely dominates the defenses of the other 4 tanking classes, try again.

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Old 02-27-2012, 02:09 AM   #179
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Novusod wrote:

There are a couple of key things you guys keep forgetting about.

Firstly the supposed brawler DoV era is nothing like the domination Guardians had in RoK. It was a monopoly for guardians in RoK. Do you even understand the meaning of the word monopoly. It is a combination of the latin words mono meaning one and poly meaning selection. So monopoly meant one selection and that is what RoK was like with Guardians. You either raided with guardian MT or you didn't raid at all in RoK. TSO was the same way only with SK being the main GoTo tank everyone needed. DoV is nothing like that. There is actually competition now between the tanks in DoV unlike in previous eras. For all the advantages brawlers have the class is still not actually needed for anything. Secondly everything in DoV can be and IS routinely killed without a brawler in raid. There is a difference between being nice to have and having a clear monopoly. If there really was a brawler monopoly then people like Bruener would NOT be raiding.

I'm pretty sure I still raided in RoK/TSO even when I was a really bad brawler.

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Old 02-27-2012, 03:10 AM   #180
BChizzle

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Corydonn wrote:

Novusod wrote:

There are a couple of key things you guys keep forgetting about.

Firstly the supposed brawler DoV era is nothing like the domination Guardians had in RoK. It was a monopoly for guardians in RoK. Do you even understand the meaning of the word monopoly. It is a combination of the latin words mono meaning one and poly meaning selection. So monopoly meant one selection and that is what RoK was like with Guardians. You either raided with guardian MT or you didn't raid at all in RoK. TSO was the same way only with SK being the main GoTo tank everyone needed. DoV is nothing like that. There is actually competition now between the tanks in DoV unlike in previous eras. For all the advantages brawlers have the class is still not actually needed for anything. Secondly everything in DoV can be and IS routinely killed without a brawler in raid. There is a difference between being nice to have and having a clear monopoly. If there really was a brawler monopoly then people like Bruener would NOT be raiding.

I'm pretty sure I still raided in RoK/TSO even when I was a really bad brawler.

Most guilds rolled with guards till TSO then SK's, yes a select few good brawlers had raid spots but back then they were viewed mostly as a joke or a throw away spot.  Even more so the top bruiser in the game back then switched to guard and Confirmed how OP they were.  I dont see Bruener the supposed top SK in this game switching his main to a brawler mustn't be that much of a difference.

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