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Old 02-04-2012, 04:56 AM   #121
TheShah

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[email protected] wrote:

Can you please post the full summary avoidance report for that fight if possible?

 

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Old 02-04-2012, 02:42 PM   #122
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TheShah wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Can you please post the full summary avoidance report for that fight if possible?

 

There is a few things funny about this avoidance report.1) He didnt use the 6% dodge food/drink which i obviously did.2) My avoidance for him was less then 10% more3) This is including the fact I always use my avoid temp buffs to jack up whomever is tanking avoidance and intercede/stoneskin thier aoe's if possible. If you are trying to show a big disparity in avoidance and damage taken this fails miserably.

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Old 02-04-2012, 02:44 PM   #123
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Aull wrote:

It is funny/weird how this whole debate about how each fighter should be. I doubt there will ever be a middle ground for all six fighters.

What ever fighter gets some love will be looked upon as the fighter who is overpowerd. Like the sk's in tso to brawlers today. This circle will not end.

Netty I enjoy all your ideas. I also believe that Gungo and Atan look at all fighters strengths and weaknesses and make valuable suggestions as to what they believe each needs.

It is a collective effort from us all to give reasonable ideas. So don't give up.

Brawlers are way ahead of SKs in TSO compared to the rest.

SKs in TSO were basicly Guardians who could heal and with the only death save in the game at the time.

Monks in DoV are Guardians with Strikethrough Immunity/Rediculous Avoidance/3 Death Saves/Horrendous DPS and Threat.

You do realize like nearly every zerker agrees you are the biggest reason zerkers are in the horrid shape they are in now.

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Old 02-04-2012, 04:19 PM   #124
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Aull wrote:

It is funny/weird how this whole debate about how each fighter should be. I doubt there will ever be a middle ground for all six fighters.

What ever fighter gets some love will be looked upon as the fighter who is overpowerd. Like the sk's in tso to brawlers today. This circle will not end.

Netty I enjoy all your ideas. I also believe that Gungo and Atan look at all fighters strengths and weaknesses and make valuable suggestions as to what they believe each needs.

It is a collective effort from us all to give reasonable ideas. So don't give up.

Brawlers are way ahead of SKs in TSO compared to the rest.

SKs in TSO were basicly Guardians who could heal and with the only death save in the game at the time.

Monks in DoV are Guardians with Strikethrough Immunity/Rediculous Avoidance/3 Death Saves/Horrendous DPS and Threat.

You do realize like nearly every zerker agrees you are the biggest reason zerkers are in the horrid shape they are in now.

The Devs havent worked on class balance in years, I don't even know if they have one left working on it.

Thats mostly why.

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Old 02-04-2012, 06:52 PM   #125
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[email protected] wrote:

There is a few things funny about this avoidance report.1) He didnt use the 6% dodge food/drink which i obviously did.2) My avoidance for him was less then 10% more3) This is including the fact I always use my avoid temp buffs to jack up whomever is tanking avoidance and intercede/stoneskin thier aoe's if possible. If you are trying to show a big disparity in avoidance and damage taken this fails miserably.

Give it up Gungo.  Brawler avoidance = another healer.  I have seen parses of our Monk on longer Statue pulls pulling out like 92-94% avoidance.

Strike through immunity is the dumbest mechanic in the game right now and just makes balancing Fighters impossible when all of them take about the same damage per hit.  It completely defeats the purpose of the strike through mechanic which could be used as a great controller of Fighter avoidance.  The immunity just keeps making things worse and worse.  More hits taken, means more MAs, means more Flurries, means more procs, and now with the crit mechanics changing means being crit on more times.

Its extremely obvious why the immunity needs to go.

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Old 02-04-2012, 06:54 PM   #126
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Wanted to add if Crusaders could heal others and themselves the HPS equivalent to what Brawler avoidance gives themselves and others you would see heal numbers pushing any healer in the game easily.

Crusader heals in SF were far from encroaching on healers and got nerfed hard anyway......

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Old 02-04-2012, 09:54 PM   #127
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Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

There is a few things funny about this avoidance report.1) He didnt use the 6% dodge food/drink which i obviously did.2) My avoidance for him was less then 10% more3) This is including the fact I always use my avoid temp buffs to jack up whomever is tanking avoidance and intercede/stoneskin thier aoe's if possible. If you are trying to show a big disparity in avoidance and damage taken this fails miserably.

Give it up Gungo.  Brawler avoidance = another healer.  I have seen parses of our Monk on longer Statue pulls pulling out like 92-94% avoidance.

Strike through immunity is the dumbest mechanic in the game right now and just makes balancing Fighters impossible when all of them take about the same damage per hit.  It completely defeats the purpose of the strike through mechanic which could be used as a great controller of Fighter avoidance.  The immunity just keeps making things worse and worse.  More hits taken, means more MAs, means more Flurries, means more procs, and now with the crit mechanics changing means being crit on more times.

Its extremely obvious why the immunity needs to go.

First post up the MONKS 94% avoidance report when he is maintanking. Because what you are claiming is near perfect avoidance if he had CAPPED every avoidance stat in game and if they were ALL uncontested which they are not. So to claim your monk is rolling around with 70% capped uncontested avoidance in every stat is technically impossible. Somehow I suspect its another of your lies and/or exhaggerations.

Second the CRIT mechanic change is NO MORE CRITS from npcs, and no more crit mit needed for players. So how are you dumb enough to think that means plate tanks "BEING CRIT ON MORE TIMES". I have no idea. It just continues to show your total misunderstanding of game mechanics. For once I have to agree with your quote, fighters who dont know game mechanics(YOU) shouldnt post.

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Old 02-04-2012, 10:25 PM   #128
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[email protected] wrote:

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

There is a few things funny about this avoidance report.1) He didnt use the 6% dodge food/drink which i obviously did.2) My avoidance for him was less then 10% more3) This is including the fact I always use my avoid temp buffs to jack up whomever is tanking avoidance and intercede/stoneskin thier aoe's if possible. If you are trying to show a big disparity in avoidance and damage taken this fails miserably.

Give it up Gungo.  Brawler avoidance = another healer.  I have seen parses of our Monk on longer Statue pulls pulling out like 92-94% avoidance.

Strike through immunity is the dumbest mechanic in the game right now and just makes balancing Fighters impossible when all of them take about the same damage per hit.  It completely defeats the purpose of the strike through mechanic which could be used as a great controller of Fighter avoidance.  The immunity just keeps making things worse and worse.  More hits taken, means more MAs, means more Flurries, means more procs, and now with the crit mechanics changing means being crit on more times.

Its extremely obvious why the immunity needs to go.

First post up the MONKS 94% avoidance report when he is maintanking. Because what you are claiming is near perfect avoidance if he had CAPPED every avoidance stat in game and if they were ALL uncontested which they are not. So to claim your monk is rolling around with 70% capped uncontested avoidance in every stat is technically impossible. Somehow I suspect its another of your lies and/or exhaggerations.

Second the CRIT mechanic change is NO MORE CRITS from npcs, and no more crit mit needed for players. So how are you dumb enough to think that means plate tanks "BEING CRIT ON MORE TIMES". I have no idea. It just continues to show your total misunderstanding of game mechanics. For once I have to agree with your quote, fighters who dont know game mechanics(YOU) shouldnt post.

Gungo, what do you sacrifice for your avoidance?

You don't have to sacrifice an off-hand slot.

You don't have to sacrifice mitigation.

You don't have to sacrifice healing.

You don't have to sacrifice your damage.

Bruener just wants his healing to be on-par with your avoidance, whats wrong with this?

Truth is I don't want anyone nerfed, I just want everyone buffed to be on-par with current classes.

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Old 02-04-2012, 11:05 PM   #129
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

There is a few things funny about this avoidance report.1) He didnt use the 6% dodge food/drink which i obviously did.2) My avoidance for him was less then 10% more3) This is including the fact I always use my avoid temp buffs to jack up whomever is tanking avoidance and intercede/stoneskin thier aoe's if possible. If you are trying to show a big disparity in avoidance and damage taken this fails miserably.

Give it up Gungo.  Brawler avoidance = another healer.  I have seen parses of our Monk on longer Statue pulls pulling out like 92-94% avoidance.

Strike through immunity is the dumbest mechanic in the game right now and just makes balancing Fighters impossible when all of them take about the same damage per hit.  It completely defeats the purpose of the strike through mechanic which could be used as a great controller of Fighter avoidance.  The immunity just keeps making things worse and worse.  More hits taken, means more MAs, means more Flurries, means more procs, and now with the crit mechanics changing means being crit on more times.

Its extremely obvious why the immunity needs to go.

First post up the MONKS 94% avoidance report when he is maintanking. Because what you are claiming is near perfect avoidance if he had CAPPED every avoidance stat in game and if they were ALL uncontested which they are not. So to claim your monk is rolling around with 70% capped uncontested avoidance in every stat is technically impossible. Somehow I suspect its another of your lies and/or exhaggerations.

Second the CRIT mechanic change is NO MORE CRITS from npcs, and no more crit mit needed for players. So how are you dumb enough to think that means plate tanks "BEING CRIT ON MORE TIMES". I have no idea. It just continues to show your total misunderstanding of game mechanics. For once I have to agree with your quote, fighters who dont know game mechanics(YOU) shouldnt post.

Gungo, what do you sacrifice for your avoidance?

You don't have to sacrifice an off-hand slot.

You don't have to sacrifice mitigation.

You don't have to sacrifice healing.

You don't have to sacrifice your damage.

If you are talking crusader they get a a massive damage bonus for using the shield that makes thier damage comparable to duel wielding. Furthermore once you get into HM content spells have nearly 100% hit chance where melee hit rates plummet. For a bruiser my hit rates in drunder is 50%. Bruisers have ZERO strikethrough from AA's or buffs, unlike every other tank, but even a monk with nearly 100% strikethrough doesnt get much higher then 70% hit rates. If you are complaining about zerks. Ya i and everyone else in this thread admitted they need work.

Mitigation % as a stat is specifically a choice over other stats. Without investing heavily into mitigation % then a brawler comes no where near close to plate mitigation. Taking EVERY character trait for mit and having the best HM gear you can get for a brawler currently gives me 6680 mitigation for a whooping 61% mit vs a level 90 npc (not a 98 like every raid npc). So what does a brawler do to fix this he SACRIFICES the choice of  accuracy, strikethrough, Multiatk, or block chance for mitigation % in jewerly, He takes the 6% mitigation warrune for the chest. With all the Mit % drunder HM jewerly and warrunes i can get at the SACRIFICE of those other stats i mentioned i get to 7140 mit or 62.9% (vs 90). Well below the 75% mit cap. Btw its not possible for any brawler to reach that cap vs a lvl 98 npc. You might be thinking the wrong expansion since mit % was FIXED in DOV and brawler got alot less mitigation since SF.

Healing? Both Brawlers have 1 non reactive heal. You act like there is a heal gap with brawlers somewhere there. Take a look at a raid heal parse. You will see every plate tank but a guard higher on the heal parse.

As far as dps please see above on learning how to gear correctly I think it might help you, furthermore every monk in the world who maintanks should take stonecold over combat mastery. Combat mastery is our only real utility and only noticable dps choice we have rolled into one. And yet the reason they should take stonecold (and this is just my opinion) is because provokign stance is a 25% damage reduction and that alone is usually not enough to prevent them from dying, but STACKED with stonecold (15%) it gives them 2 saves combines into 40% reduction and can prevent any of the one shot hits for a set period of time. So if you want to tank its a noticable choice to survive as a maintank and afaik most monks who maintank do make the choice of either defensive buff in the heroic tree over Combat mastery.

You talk about choices but you honestly dont have a clue how to play a brawler. Because the biggest stat for ANY tank in DOV raids is not anything you mentioned. The biggest stat for any tank to survive in raids in DOV is reuse. Reuse is the difference between having yor stoneskin up and not for EVERY tank. And the biggest aggro buff in game is HATE GAIN %. Honestly when i see a tank complain about aggro or loose aggro from npcs and I see that they do not even use the 5% hate gain white adorns on thier gloves or wrists and instead take 290hitpoint adorns or one of the other useless adorns I already know they have no idea what they are doing. If you would of paid attention to this thread you would see I choose reuse on every slot i could because that is the difference of having a save up and not having it up. I do it because its the best DEFENSIVE choice even if its not the best offensive choice. So you talk about choices but first you have to learn how to even gear your toons talathion before you try to even comment.

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Old 02-05-2012, 12:04 AM   #130
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

There is a few things funny about this avoidance report.1) He didnt use the 6% dodge food/drink which i obviously did.2) My avoidance for him was less then 10% more3) This is including the fact I always use my avoid temp buffs to jack up whomever is tanking avoidance and intercede/stoneskin thier aoe's if possible. If you are trying to show a big disparity in avoidance and damage taken this fails miserably.

Give it up Gungo.  Brawler avoidance = another healer.  I have seen parses of our Monk on longer Statue pulls pulling out like 92-94% avoidance.

Strike through immunity is the dumbest mechanic in the game right now and just makes balancing Fighters impossible when all of them take about the same damage per hit.  It completely defeats the purpose of the strike through mechanic which could be used as a great controller of Fighter avoidance.  The immunity just keeps making things worse and worse.  More hits taken, means more MAs, means more Flurries, means more procs, and now with the crit mechanics changing means being crit on more times.

Its extremely obvious why the immunity needs to go.

First post up the MONKS 94% avoidance report when he is maintanking. Because what you are claiming is near perfect avoidance if he had CAPPED every avoidance stat in game and if they were ALL uncontested which they are not. So to claim your monk is rolling around with 70% capped uncontested avoidance in every stat is technically impossible. Somehow I suspect its another of your lies and/or exhaggerations.

Second the CRIT mechanic change is NO MORE CRITS from npcs, and no more crit mit needed for players. So how are you dumb enough to think that means plate tanks "BEING CRIT ON MORE TIMES". I have no idea. It just continues to show your total misunderstanding of game mechanics. For once I have to agree with your quote, fighters who dont know game mechanics(YOU) shouldnt post.

Gungo, what do you sacrifice for your avoidance?

You don't have to sacrifice an off-hand slot.

You don't have to sacrifice mitigation.

You don't have to sacrifice healing.

You don't have to sacrifice your damage.

If you are talking crusader they get a a massive damage bonus for using the shield that makes thier damage comparable to duel wielding. Furthermore once you get into HM content spells have nearly 100% hit chance where melee hit rates plummet. For a bruiser my hit rates in drunder is 50%. Bruisers have ZERO strikethrough from AA's or buffs, unlike every other tank, but even a monk with nearly 100% strikethrough doesnt get much higher then 70% hit rates. If you are complaining about zerks. Ya i and everyone else in this thread admitted they need work.

What is amazing is the minimal difference that large amount of strike through makes on hit rates.  Really all our Fighters in raids are within a few % hit rates despite varying amount of +strike through.  There is no way that Knights Stance even comes close to DW'ing for DPS.  When they changed DW'ing to proc MA and AE and everything on both weapons it shot that out of the water.  Its real simple to look at parses and see DW'ing a large amount more.

Mitigation % as a stat is specifically a choice over other stats. Without investing heavily into mitigation % then a brawler comes no where near close to plate mitigation. Taking EVERY character trait for mit and having the best HM gear you can get for a brawler currently gives me 6680 mitigation for a whooping 61% mit vs a level 90 npc (not a 98 like every raid npc). So what does a brawler do to fix this he SACRIFICES the choice of  accuracy, strikethrough, Multiatk, or block chance for mitigation % in jewerly, He takes the 6% mitigation warrune for the chest. With all the Mit % drunder HM jewerly and warrunes i can get at the SACRIFICE of those other stats i mentioned i get to 7140 mit or 62.9% (vs 90). Well below the 75% mit cap. Btw its not possible for any brawler to reach that cap vs a lvl 98 npc. You might be thinking the wrong expansion since mit % was FIXED in DOV and brawler got alot less mitigation since SF.

First of all Brawlers were given a large mitigation boost in DoV.  Second having mroe damage reduction means taking close to the same size hits as a Plate tank.  Brawlers don't sacrifice jack to get +mitigation.  It is on gear and you don't spec any mroe for it than that.  Brawlers on the other hand get more out of +block chance due to ratio they get in uncontested avoidance per block chance compared to plates.  Something that works out to a Brawler capping at 170 block chance versus a Plate at like 225.  Yeah they fixed mit %, but than gave it all back to Brawlers on gear.

Healing? Both Brawlers have 1 non reactive heal. You act like there is a heal gap with brawlers somewhere there. Take a look at a raid heal parse. You will see every plate tank but a guard higher on the heal parse.

He is talking about if a Crusader put out the HPS that would equal what a Brawler gets from their extremely superior avoidance.  Crusaders would not only need heal crits back but would also need a large boost to heals to show equivalent numbers.  Something we know won't happen because it is OP'd.  Hint, hint.

As far as dps please see above on learning how to gear correctly I think it might help you, furthermore every monk in the world who maintanks should take stonecold over combat mastery. Combat mastery is our only real utility and only noticable dps choice we have rolled into one. And yet the reason they should take stonecold (and this is just my opinion) is because provokign stance is a 25% damage reduction and that alone is usually not enough to prevent them from dying, but STACKED with stonecold (15%) it gives them 2 saves combines into 40% reduction and can prevent any of the one shot hits for a set period of time. So if you want to tank its a noticable choice to survive as a maintank and afaik most monks who maintank do make the choice of either defensive buff in the heroic tree over Combat mastery.

DPS since DoV has become a moot point for Fighters in general.  Nobody cares about it.  You bring T1 to do your DPS since they are going to push out 3x the numbers.  Even so, Brawlers have not sacrificed their position near the top of Fighter DPS while given stupid defensive capabilities that shouldn't be their realm.

You talk about choices but you honestly dont have a clue how to play a brawler. Because the biggest stat for ANY tank in DOV raids is not anything you mentioned. The biggest stat for any tank to survive in raids in DOV is reuse. Reuse is the difference between having yor stoneskin up and not for EVERY tank. And the biggest aggro buff in game is HATE GAIN %. Honestly when i see a tank complain about aggro or loose aggro from npcs and I see that they do not even use the 5% hate gain white adorns on thier gloves or wrists and instead take 290hitpoint adorns or one of the other useless adorns I already know they have no idea what they are doing. If you would of paid attention to this thread you would see I choose reuse on every slot i could because that is the difference of having a save up and not having it up. I do it because its the best DEFENSIVE choice even if its not the best offensive choice. So you talk about choices but first you have to learn how to even gear your toons talathion before you try to even comment.

Since you can't seem to agree that some buffage needs to definitely happen to even get close to balance.  Nerf already than.

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Old 02-05-2012, 01:44 AM   #131
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Aull wrote:

It is funny/weird how this whole debate about how each fighter should be. I doubt there will ever be a middle ground for all six fighters.

What ever fighter gets some love will be looked upon as the fighter who is overpowerd. Like the sk's in tso to brawlers today. This circle will not end.

Netty I enjoy all your ideas. I also believe that Gungo and Atan look at all fighters strengths and weaknesses and make valuable suggestions as to what they believe each needs.

It is a collective effort from us all to give reasonable ideas. So don't give up.

Brawlers are way ahead of SKs in TSO compared to the rest.

SKs in TSO were basicly Guardians who could heal and with the only death save in the game at the time.

Monks in DoV are Guardians with Strikethrough Immunity/Rediculous Avoidance/3 Death Saves/Horrendous DPS and Threat.

You do realize like nearly every zerker agrees you are the biggest reason zerkers are in the horrid shape they are in now.

The Devs havent worked on class balance in years, I don't even know if they have one left working on it.

Thats mostly why.

They did have a small look at zerks. You if anyone should remeber since your spaming of BS stuff that dident need fixed or look at consumed the thread. I bet you if you dident post all the stupid ideas you have had over the years zerks would atleast have been abit better now. Dont try and blame it on the devs alone since you share a big slice of that aswell.

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Old 02-05-2012, 03:27 AM   #132
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I examine an equally geared brawler, he has 6793 Mitigation.

I have 7090 Mitigation. (and I have the +500 Mitigation from specing into it from Warrior Tree.)

He has no Mitigation Increase Jewelry or Runes, he uses CM Runes.

Somethings wrong.

Actually Netty alot of the ideas I posted were ones that were changed.  Lol.

And I don't even know if that developer is around anymore, I havent seen him in awile.

I'm better geared then she is, and she has outdone me on Mitigation, berserkers don't even get health buffs and I have 4k more HP then she does as a Monk (who has several HP buffs).

And she has 200 More Mitigation then I do, a PLATE tank.

She has no +Mitigation Runes or Jewelry.

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Old 02-05-2012, 09:53 AM   #133
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[email protected] wrote:

TheShah wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Can you please post the full summary avoidance report for that fight if possible?

 

There is a few things funny about this avoidance report.1) He didnt use the 6% dodge food/drink which i obviously did.2) My avoidance for him was less then 10% more3) This is including the fact I always use my avoid temp buffs to jack up whomever is tanking avoidance and intercede/stoneskin thier aoe's if possible. If you are trying to show a big disparity in avoidance and damage taken this fails miserably.

Although avoidance reports like this are highly miss-leading given the order which avoidance reports are worked out in

First it checks against a clerics avoidanceThen it checks against a "brawlers" avoidance (or any tank with their avoidance on the MT)Then and only then does it check the MT's avoidance.

It does not according to popular opinion check the MT's avoidance first before moving onto the others; this skews the avoidance in favour of the brawler who does the avoiding.

That being said due to the way avoidance works plate tanks get one-shotted more than brawlers and very often brawlers can get higher or similar mitigation than a plate tank (even if both in defensive stance) simply due which healer buffs which can be cast on each tank. This shows how *close* the mitigation from both sets of tanks can be; so whatever advantage being a plate tank has is mitigated (no pun intended) by the addition of buffs and gear but the avboidance advantage is not... in fact it tends to be amplified - parry food/drink or not.

I'm sorry but any brawler who thinks for a moment things are balanced is trying to hide the fact they know they are unbalanced and is desparately hoping not to get nerfed. Think every tuime you use your "oh fiddlesticks" button more than

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Old 02-05-2012, 02:51 PM   #134
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Novusod wrote:

DoV content especially hardmode drunder is very ballanced. I have already given you two examples where using the SK prefered over other tanks. Mystikus Terrorwing the best combo is guard MT with SK OT. Tyrax Terrolus one mob with no adds and the SK is clearly the best MT for it. Asking for more than these to be custom tailored to the strengths of the SK is just being a PIG.

BTW for those that have been following this thread this statement is completely false.

Terrorwing - Brawlers are the best OTs since that is where the most damage is incoming to.  Anybody can tank Terrorwing.  Best set up realistically for this fight if you were trying to take the least amount of damage would be 3 Brawlers.

Tyrax there is no reason not to use a Brawler or Guard to MT it.  It is a total load trying to claim that SK is clearly the best tank for it.  There is nothing that this encounter does that would warrant that.  My guess is their SK is just better.  It is yet again an encounter about which tank is going to take the least damage overall and have the best one hit prevention....go figure.

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Old 02-05-2012, 03:28 PM   #135
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I wish we had a class balance developer...

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Old 02-05-2012, 08:39 PM   #136
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I examine an equally geared brawler, he has 6793 Mitigation.

I have 7090 Mitigation. (and I have the +500 Mitigation from specing into it from Warrior Tree.)

He has no Mitigation Increase Jewelry or Runes, he uses CM Runes.

Somethings wrong.

Actually Netty alot of the ideas I posted were ones that were changed.  Lol.

And I don't even know if that developer is around anymore, I havent seen him in awile.

I'm better geared then she is, and she has outdone me on Mitigation, berserkers don't even get health buffs and I have 4k more HP then she does as a Monk (who has several HP buffs).

And she has 200 More Mitigation then I do, a PLATE tank.

She has no +Mitigation Runes or Jewelry.

And your point? If it was your changes that they took from and here we are and zerks are still the worst tank class in this expansion? You bombard every singel thread with so much BS that dont need to be fixed so the real ideas never got looked at. Only one thing that you where complaining about got in and that was casting speed of aoes.... Did we need it? NO. Some ppl had ideas of adding striketough and stuff to it but it all got over shadowed by your stupid ideas. As i said one of your ideas they did take but you posted like 999 that was just as bad. Ppl have been trying to get you away from this class for im not sure how long and its just a shame you play this class and trying to fit it in with your play style. You are the worst thing ever for the class so just give it up.

As for your litle check there. I play my monk now but both the guard and the zerk are well geared aswell and you cant compare the mitigation in Dstance on the monk vs Ostance on the zerk. Again im not saying that the diff in mit is to small but im not going to lie about it as you do. The gap is to close aye but stick to the truth.

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Old 02-05-2012, 08:51 PM   #137
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Netty wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I examine an equally geared brawler, he has 6793 Mitigation.

I have 7090 Mitigation. (and I have the +500 Mitigation from specing into it from Warrior Tree.)

He has no Mitigation Increase Jewelry or Runes, he uses CM Runes.

Somethings wrong.

Actually Netty alot of the ideas I posted were ones that were changed.  Lol.

And I don't even know if that developer is around anymore, I havent seen him in awile.

I'm better geared then she is, and she has outdone me on Mitigation, berserkers don't even get health buffs and I have 4k more HP then she does as a Monk (who has several HP buffs).

And she has 200 More Mitigation then I do, a PLATE tank.

She has no +Mitigation Runes or Jewelry.

And your point? If it was your changes that they took from and here we are and zerks are still the worst tank class in this expansion? You bombard every singel thread with so much BS that dont need to be fixed so the real ideas never got looked at. Only one thing that you where complaining about got in and that was casting speed of aoes.... Did we need it? NO. Some ppl had ideas of adding striketough and stuff to it but it all got over shadowed by your stupid ideas. As i said one of your ideas they did take but you posted like 999 that was just as bad. Ppl have been trying to get you away from this class for im not sure how long and its just a shame you play this class and trying to fit it in with your play style. You are the worst thing ever for the class so just give it up.

As for your litle check there. I play my monk now but both the guard and the zerk are well geared aswell and you cant compare the mitigation in Dstance on the monk vs Ostance on the zerk. Again im not saying that the diff in mit is to small but im not going to lie about it as you do. The gap is to close aye but stick to the truth.

Zerkers have a defensive stance?

When?

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Old 02-05-2012, 08:55 PM   #138
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Netty wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I examine an equally geared brawler, he has 6793 Mitigation.

I have 7090 Mitigation. (and I have the +500 Mitigation from specing into it from Warrior Tree.)

He has no Mitigation Increase Jewelry or Runes, he uses CM Runes.

Somethings wrong.

Actually Netty alot of the ideas I posted were ones that were changed.  Lol.

And I don't even know if that developer is around anymore, I havent seen him in awile.

I'm better geared then she is, and she has outdone me on Mitigation, berserkers don't even get health buffs and I have 4k more HP then she does as a Monk (who has several HP buffs).

And she has 200 More Mitigation then I do, a PLATE tank.

She has no +Mitigation Runes or Jewelry.

And your point? If it was your changes that they took from and here we are and zerks are still the worst tank class in this expansion? You bombard every singel thread with so much BS that dont need to be fixed so the real ideas never got looked at. Only one thing that you where complaining about got in and that was casting speed of aoes.... Did we need it? NO. Some ppl had ideas of adding striketough and stuff to it but it all got over shadowed by your stupid ideas. As i said one of your ideas they did take but you posted like 999 that was just as bad. Ppl have been trying to get you away from this class for im not sure how long and its just a shame you play this class and trying to fit it in with your play style. You are the worst thing ever for the class so just give it up.

As for your litle check there. I play my monk now but both the guard and the zerk are well geared aswell and you cant compare the mitigation in Dstance on the monk vs Ostance on the zerk. Again im not saying that the diff in mit is to small but im not going to lie about it as you do. The gap is to close aye but stick to the truth.

Zerkers have a defensive stance?

When?

Does it matter that its junk? No... the monk can hold aggro in Dstance but compare the MIT should be done from the Dstance not from the Ostance to Dstance. That zerks tank even worse in Dstance has nothing to do with it. Since we should be able to do so and hold aggro and not lose 90% of the dps. We all know that you are stupid so just stop pls.

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Old 02-06-2012, 01:58 AM   #139
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Zerkers have a defensive stance?

When?

We went over this before. Its the one you already claimed you never used and is still app1 in quality, its also the one that gives you 20% more mitigation. Furthermore your monk mit is a total lie. I have mostly drunder Hm gear and without mit% on gear my mit is lower then your example monk. You even just got called out as lying by another zerk.Go figure.

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Old 02-06-2012, 02:04 AM   #140
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Bruener wrote:

Novusod wrote:

DoV content especially hardmode drunder is very ballanced. I have already given you two examples where using the SK prefered over other tanks. Mystikus Terrorwing the best combo is guard MT with SK OT. Tyrax Terrolus one mob with no adds and the SK is clearly the best MT for it. Asking for more than these to be custom tailored to the strengths of the SK is just being a PIG.

BTW for those that have been following this thread this statement is completely false.

Terrorwing - Brawlers are the best OTs since that is where the most damage is incoming to.  Anybody can tank Terrorwing.  Best set up realistically for this fight if you were trying to take the least amount of damage would be 3 Brawlers.

Tyrax there is no reason not to use a Brawler or Guard to MT it.  It is a total load trying to claim that SK is clearly the best tank for it.  There is nothing that this encounter does that would warrant that.  My guess is their SK is just better.  It is yet again an encounter about which tank is going to take the least damage overall and have the best one hit prevention....go figure.

Terrorwing-You do realize the reason why the Sk is better on adds is the immunity to control effects and thier better unlinked aoe agro. Lets use for example the guild who world wide firsted this npc BEFORE the adds were nerfed. Surreal Sk tanked it with 10 npcs on him. Thier brawlers are pretty decent too. My guess is not other guilds tanks being better but your guilds shadowknight being worse.

No clue on tyrax. Will tell you tomorrow.

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Old 02-06-2012, 03:03 AM   #141
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Bruener wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

What is amazing is the minimal difference that large amount of strike through makes on hit rates.  Really all our Fighters in raids are within a few % hit rates despite varying amount of +strike through.  There is no way that Knights Stance even comes close to DW'ing for DPS.  When they changed DW'ing to proc MA and AE and everything on both weapons it shot that out of the water.  Its real simple to look at parses and see DW'ing a large amount more.

According to ACT parses the auto atk damage is comparable. So yes knights stance does balance out compared to dual wielding. The difference is 100% proc buffs. Which is higher for dual wielding. Which I am fine with considering you ignored the fact that that SPELL HIT RATES ARE near 100%. YOU ALREADY ADMITTED SHADOWKNIGHTS benefit from near 100% hit rates on thier spells and EVERY OTHER tank relys on horrid hit rates on thier CA's. A good shadowknight can parse comparably to brawlers. AOE fights in drunder shadowknights are the HIGHEST PARSING FIGHTER. But wait this is bruener he wants to top the parses for ALL fighters in EVERY zone on EVERY ENCOUNTER. Then he will go and complain how his sk who is topping parses isnt tanking like a guard (or now monk). You dont know balance bruener and you expect EVERYTHING.

First of all Brawlers were given a large mitigation boost in DoV.  Second having mroe damage reduction means taking close to the same size hits as a Plate tank.  Brawlers don't sacrifice jack to get +mitigation.  It is on gear and you don't spec any mroe for it than that.  Brawlers on the other hand get more out of +block chance due to ratio they get in uncontested avoidance per block chance compared to plates.  Something that works out to a Brawler capping at 170 block chance versus a Plate at like 225.  Yeah they fixed mit %, but than gave it all back to Brawlers on gear.

Bruener and his lies and exhagerations. Brawlers in SF ( the expansion bruner claims was balanced) went from capping mitigation because of a broken % mit bug. To being 10% under cap vs lvl 98 npcs. Furthermore he claims brawlers got a large mit boost in DOV. The only MIT boost in dov is 780 mitigation added to our self buff. Gear mit is nearly identical to SF ( a few points higher for progression purposes). So 780 mit is now a large boost? Could you exhagerate anymore? Did you completely miss the point on how EVERY jewerly piece in game with mit % has an IDENTICAL match piece of jewerly without mit % but instead accuracy/strikethrough/multiatk. As a plate tank if you feel you dont need more mitigation you can always take the DPS choices. Sunshine you dont understand mechanics as a plate tank the amount of block chance you need depends on the quality(protection number) of your shield dived by your level.

DPS since DoV has become a moot point for Fighters in general.  Nobody cares about it.  You bring T1 to do your DPS since they are going to push out 3x the numbers.  Even so, Brawlers have not sacrificed their position near the top of Fighter DPS while given stupid defensive capabilities that shouldn't be their realm.

Dont worry shadowknights are near the top as well and top out the fights in dps in drunder because they dont rely on crap hit rates for most of thier dps.

Since you can't seem to agree that some buffage needs to definitely happen to even get close to balance.  Nerf already than.

I see you skipped out on the reply before this where you get called out on failing to know mechanics, But i digress. Where did i state other tanks dont need buffage. All i have stated is you act like shadowknights are broken like a zerker when inreality a GOOD shadowknight can and has tanked every npc in DOV. You dont know balance and you always try to overpower your class because its obvious you need the crutch since other shadowknights have tanked NPCs you have stated was impossible.

Honestly bruener your lies are getting to be as bad as talathions.

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Old 02-06-2012, 03:17 AM   #142
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Its nice to agree with Gungo from time to time.  Bruener and Talathion are pretty much the same person when it comes to understanding how this game works, I am glad to see you guys get along so well so we can all ignore whatever you say for garbage.  Here is the truth despite the cries from certain people no brawlers are now maintanking but not the only main tank of choice, they are also not the off tank of choice, they are now simply an option which means SOE is doing a great job.  But keep crying guys since your classes aren't the OP classes they used to be and you cant find a raid spot based on talent alone.

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Old 02-06-2012, 01:14 PM   #143
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As MT 90% of the time your 3 choices are Gaurdian/Monk/Bruiser.

If you choose anything else you're actively choosing to make raiding substantially harder for your guild. That is the fact of the matter. 

Just because the other 3 tank classes at a pinch can MT this content, especially when they are substantially over geared it doesn't mean there is Balance.

The saying "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight" comes to mind.. sure you can, but you've made a stupid choice

The only people argueing brawlers are balanced are Brawlers.. I'm a Guardian and I KNOW I MT content better than the 3 other plate tanks.

The difference between my Guardian and my Monk??? I have to give things up to do it on my Guardian Why don't I play my Monk??? Personal preference and the fact that the things I have to give up don't detrimentally effect my raid force that much. Why don't I play my Paladin??? Because my Guardian and my Monk do EVERYTHING an MT needs to do, better.

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Old 02-07-2012, 02:37 PM   #144
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Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Just because the other 3 tank classes at a pinch can MT this content, especially when they are substantially over geared it doesn't mean there is Balance.

I'm so tired of this circular arguement.

Balance does not mean all 6 tanks can do everything in game equally.

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Old 02-08-2012, 08:04 AM   #145
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[email protected] wrote:

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Just because the other 3 tank classes at a pinch can MT this content, especially when they are substantially over geared it doesn't mean there is Balance.

I'm so tired of this circular arguement.

Balance does not mean all 6 tanks can do everything in game equally.

... but it should mean that defensive tanks should be more... well defensive.

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Old 02-08-2012, 01:11 PM   #146
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[email protected] wrote:

... but it should mean that defensive tanks should be more... well defensive.

No arguements there.  I've been pushing for changes regarding this for some time.

On the flip side, might you also say it means offensive tanks shouldn't be quite so defensive? =)

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Old 02-08-2012, 02:30 PM   #147
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Just because the other 3 tank classes at a pinch can MT this content, especially when they are substantially over geared it doesn't mean there is Balance.

I'm so tired of this circular arguement.

Balance does not mean all 6 tanks can do everything in game equally.

... but it should mean that defensive tanks should be more... well defensive.

I agree with you both.

Honestly when I rolled my zerker years ago I had an understanding that my zerker will not be able to take the punishment that a guardian could. That is the way it should be since my zerker was the more offensively inclined warrior. For the most part I could tank at least 90 percent of what a guard to do but there were areas of the game that a guardian outshined my zerker.

I had no problems with that and still don't cause there was times that my zerker could outshine a guardian.

A zerker should have never been given any defensive abilities that rivaled the guardians defense and still keep their offensive warrior status. That goes for all fighters in general.

As Atan stated "Balance does not mean all 6 tanks can do everything in game equally". Best statement I have read in some time.

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Old 02-08-2012, 04:03 PM   #148
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[email protected] wrote:

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Just because the other 3 tank classes at a pinch can MT this content, especially when they are substantially over geared it doesn't mean there is Balance.

I'm so tired of this circular arguement.

Balance does not mean all 6 tanks can do everything in game equally.

Your right.  So why are 3 of the Fighters owning every area that matters?

Fighter DPS was made a joke in relation to raid-wide DPS, so it is a complete non-factor now.

Agro for all fighters is reliant on having decent hate buffers and transfers and every Fighter can control agro on a mob(s) against a raid force.

That leaves snap capability, sustainable damage taken, and one shot prevention.

If these are going to be what tanking is all about like it seems to be than 3 of the Fighters shouldn't get all the tools to own these categories.

Why is it the tanks that take the least damage overall also have the most snap capability and the most capability to avoid one shots?  SOE has made tanking since DoV all about these 3 areas and have given plenty of tools to 3 of the Fighters to handle ALL situations while the other 3 end up lacking.

Honestly, I would love to see them balance offensive and defensive better.  First step would be to make being an Offensive Fighter really an offensive advantage for the raid.  Something the game has always saw was Fighters able to push out real good numbers in raid situations.  I remember KoS having a Zerk MT that would easily top the parse on AE content.  This type of playstyle hung on until DoV where suddenly they decided to jack up DPS'ers to 3x what even an offensive Fighter could put out regularly.  Meanwhile the gap between Offensive and Defensive Fighters is tiny.

Regardless of how they end up really addressing the issue there are certain mechanics that definitely need to be addressed.  Strike through immunity should not exist period.  Mitigation gap needs to return to the levels they were prior to SF.

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Old 02-08-2012, 06:32 PM   #149
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Bruener wrote:

Honestly, I would love to see them balance offensive and defensive better.  First step would be to make being an Offensive Fighter really an offensive advantage for the raid.  Something the game has always saw was Fighters able to push out real good numbers in raid situations.  I remember KoS having a Zerk MT that would easily top the parse on AE content.  This type of playstyle hung on until DoV where suddenly they decided to jack up DPS'ers to 3x what even an offensive Fighter could put out regularly.  Meanwhile the gap between Offensive and Defensive Fighters is tiny.

Regardless of how they end up really addressing the issue there are certain mechanics that definitely need to be addressed.  Strike through immunity should not exist period.  Mitigation gap needs to return to the levels they were prior to SF.

I think they should capitalize on the offensive warrior, brawler, crusader and defensive warrior, brawler, and crusader.

I will agree with you that raid buffed fighter dps was an benefit up till dov. Even back in KoS, EoF, & RoK raid fighter dps wasn't the best but it wasn't in the gutter when compaired to t1 dps.

I personally don't like strikethrough at all. For mobs or classes.

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Old 02-09-2012, 07:07 AM   #150
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[email protected] wrote:

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Just because the other 3 tank classes at a pinch can MT this content, especially when they are substantially over geared it doesn't mean there is Balance.

I'm so tired of this circular arguement.

Balance does not mean all 6 tanks can do everything in game equally.

Yes you are right that balance doesn't mean all the 6 fighter can do everything equally. The ideal situation is each fighter has a meaningful advantage in some area and a meaningful disadvantage in another area. The key word there is "meaningful". The advantage and disadvantage has to matter. It is not ok, if one fighter is the best flower picker in game since no one cares about fighters flower picking skill in a raid!

Unfortunately 3 of the fighters can do the stuff that matters better than other 3 fighters. This is not balance. 

I subscribe to the view that SOE will never balance fighters so I have all 3 fighter archetypes. So this balance issue doesn't really affect me. Unfortunately not a lot of people have the time to level up 3 class and get the required AA. It sucks if you are one of those people with the wrong fighter class.

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