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Old 02-01-2012, 05:45 PM   #151
Jaxl

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Onorem wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Silius wrote:

  • The goal is for this change to not change the difficulty of the encounters. This is why we ask that you all take some time to log on to test once we push it there. We plan on having this on test by the weekend.

If we all log onto Test and try it out, will y'all double dog pinky swear to read the feedback, open discussion, and tweak where necessary?

Since I found out they have some special test feedback forum that isn't available to all and that's where they respond to feedback, I refuse to test a product I already pay to have work properly. Put it on test and patch it the next day. You don't want the feedback of the masses anyway.

Uhh, they hardly ever post in the testers forum...

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Old 02-01-2012, 05:45 PM   #152
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[email protected] wrote:

slippery wrote:

Most people are really have no idea what this changes.

Let me give you a hint.

Nothing. It doesn't change anything. If you couldn't kill it before you can't kill it now. There are still plenty of gear checks, starting with critical avoidance, and further in to the point that a lot of the encounters already have built in dps checks. Only a few have actual time limits before becoming impossible or getting a buff that makes it a lot harder, but most have an inate dps check that if you can't keep up with adds you aren't going to kill the encounter.

This really isn't true Slip.

You don't really have enough empathy with casual raid forces and the high degree of turnover they have and how long it takes them to gear up recruits.

Certainly this changes little for the top 100 guilds in game, but it does in fact change things for many others.

I disagree. This does not change much for casuals because I am not a believer that CM was the only thing stopping their raid forces from progressing. Casuals tend to fail simple scripts and tactics at a much greater rate. Taking away CM might increase the suvivability some, but it does not change ability to adapt to the situation, or ability to pre-cure, or ability to cover a specific curse, or ability to handle the clickies, or low crit % rates....the list goes on.

I'm sorry. I do not want to personally downgrade casuals. I commend them for their efforts. It's just they tend to fail because all the pieces to the puzzle can't be put together.

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Old 02-01-2012, 05:48 PM   #153
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You know CM hasnt always been in the game and raid mobs were never just tank and spank, think before you post dumb comments

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Old 02-01-2012, 05:51 PM   #154
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Anklesteiner wrote:

Leovinus wrote:

Anklesteiner wrote:

The funny thing is a person in legendary gear going into HM Drunder has just as much survivabilty as someone in a complete set of HM gear now.

Maybe close to (ish, there's a huge HP difference), but not exactly, and they'll have next to no ability to actively contribute to the success of the raid.

But they'll still be able to survive in the content. Which now means there is no survivablity check. Which now means anybody can come into any content and be able to survive. Thus removing any notion of progression.

If you are stuck on harder content, then the only way to get past it would be with those who can contribute. Surviving is not contributing when your gear is so low that you can't even crit 50% of the time. This is just one example, but it easily applies across DPS, HPS, and Aggro as being ineffective. You still won't be able to kill harder content with these results.

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Old 02-01-2012, 05:58 PM   #155
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Anklesteiner wrote:

Leovinus wrote:

Anklesteiner wrote:

The funny thing is a person in legendary gear going into HM Drunder has just as much survivabilty as someone in a complete set of HM gear now.

Maybe close to (ish, there's a huge HP difference), but not exactly, and they'll have next to no ability to actively contribute to the success of the raid.

But they'll still be able to survive in the content. Which now means there is no survivablity check. Which now means anybody can come into any content and be able to survive. Thus removing any notion of progression.

Not exactly.

Those aoes they needed CM to survive through still deal a ton of damage. And that damage is NOT percentage based.

Though I'm curious as to if this would make say, Challenge Temple of Rallos Zek(group zone) easier... that twin idols still gets my goat.

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Old 02-01-2012, 05:58 PM   #156
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The problem to me isnt the removal of cm or the loss of any shards etc, its what is replacing it. Im guessing if cm will no longer be needed and theyre replacing it w hp then hp will be whats needed along w cc. Meaning we will not have the option of adorning w more dps or potency etc itll just be hp... I just hope they put alot of thought into this change whats the point of the work that would be put into this if only a 'word' is changed. Dont simplify the game any further afterall if Epic MMO Gaming on an Unmatched Scale is what Eq2 is based on then lets not have a wowafied version.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:00 PM   #157
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Cyrim wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

slippery wrote:

Most people are really have no idea what this changes.

Let me give you a hint.

Nothing. It doesn't change anything. If you couldn't kill it before you can't kill it now. There are still plenty of gear checks, starting with critical avoidance, and further in to the point that a lot of the encounters already have built in dps checks. Only a few have actual time limits before becoming impossible or getting a buff that makes it a lot harder, but most have an inate dps check that if you can't keep up with adds you aren't going to kill the encounter.

This really isn't true Slip.

You don't really have enough empathy with casual raid forces and the high degree of turnover they have and how long it takes them to gear up recruits.

Certainly this changes little for the top 100 guilds in game, but it does in fact change things for many others.

I disagree. This does not change much for casuals because I am not a believer that CM was the only thing stopping their raid forces from progressing. Casuals tend to fail simple scripts and tactics at a much greater rate. Taking away CM might increase the suvivability some, but it does not change ability to adapt to the situation, or ability to pre-cure, or ability to cover a specific curse, or ability to handle the clickies, or low crit % rates....the list goes on.

I'm sorry. I do not want to personally downgrade casuals. I commend them for their efforts. It's just they tend to fail because all the pieces to the puzzle can't be put together.

It's not casuals that are affected by scripts and stuff. I know quite a few casual players that have decent progression.

It's bad players that can't follow scripts. There's a difference.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:06 PM   #158
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Cyrim wrote:

I disagree. This does not change much for casuals because I am not a believer that CM was the only thing stopping their raid forces from progressing. Casuals tend to fail simple scripts and tactics at a much greater rate. Taking away CM might increase the suvivability some, but it does not change ability to adapt to the situation, or ability to pre-cure, or ability to cover a specific curse, or ability to handle the clickies, or low crit % rates....the list goes on.

I'm sorry. I do not want to personally downgrade casuals. I commend them for their efforts. It's just they tend to fail because all the pieces to the puzzle can't be put together.

Wow, I never said it was the only thing stopping their progression.  I only said the constant regearing was a significant contributing factor to the slow speed of their progression.  That slow speed only served to feed the attrition rate as people simply got tired of gearing recruitXYZ to replace mainABC who left the previous week from being tired of gearing recruitTUV.

Skill, raid build, other contributing factors will continue to gate them to content, I never said it wouldn't.  However they'll get to spend more time on the encounters that are actually gating them, where previously they've been having to re-run EM content to gear recruits before being able to spend time on entry level HM stuffs.

Running a guild that has both HC and Casual raidforces, I've had a pretty solid notion of how much CM and gearing of recruits has affected either force.  And I do see this change helping their speed of progression, but by no means suddenly leap frogging them up the ladder.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:10 PM   #159
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[email protected] wrote:

It's not casuals that are affected by scripts and stuff. I know quite a few casual players that have decent progression.

It's bad players that can't follow scripts. There's a difference.

The difference is when a good player makes a msitake he or she learns from it. when a bad player makes a mistake he/she does not learn from it.

not having enough time to gain experiance on encounters and content does not mean people are bad players it simply means that their lives are more time consuming then others.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:16 PM   #160
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Jaxl wrote:

Onorem wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Silius wrote:

  • The goal is for this change to not change the difficulty of the encounters. This is why we ask that you all take some time to log on to test once we push it there. We plan on having this on test by the weekend.

If we all log onto Test and try it out, will y'all double dog pinky swear to read the feedback, open discussion, and tweak where necessary?

Since I found out they have some special test feedback forum that isn't available to all and that's where they respond to feedback, I refuse to test a product I already pay to have work properly. Put it on test and patch it the next day. You don't want the feedback of the masses anyway.

Uhh, they hardly ever post in the testers forum...

Is that the special testers forum or the In Testing Feedback forum? It was explained to me one of the last times I tried to give test feedback that they can't be bothered to respond to everyone in test feedback. They do most of it through the sooper sekret forum. Either way, the In Testing Feedback forum is a waste of time, so I won't be pitching in to help test.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:17 PM   #161
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I really don't want to go back to the days where you had to have a shaman in every group since the ae's hit so rediculously hard.  I will be very unhappy if that happens again - I hated it in TSO.  DPS groups shouldn't need more than one healer and it just makes it boring and not fun for the healers if they have to have a shaman there soley to prevent one-shots.  I worry that since they are changing the crit mit to HP that they will ramp up the amount of damage theAE's are putting out.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:26 PM   #162
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Fantastic news.  Now if they would just remove critical avoidance from the mobs. 

Take us back to how it was before SF.  Back to a time when player ability instead of two stats separated the good players from the average ones.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:26 PM   #163
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Anastasie wrote:

I really don't want to go back to the days where you had to have a shaman in every group since the ae's hit so rediculously hard.  I will be very unhappy if that happens again - I hated it in TSO.  DPS groups shouldn't need more than one healer and it just makes it boring and not fun for the healers if they have to have a shaman there soley to prevent one-shots.  I worry that since they are changing the crit mit to HP that they will ramp up the amount of damage theAE's are putting out.

It's already pretty much like this.

Most of our raid healers' setups are Inquisitor for cures and shaman for wards.

Only difference is the mage group, where we usually have a fury, and MT group, where we'd prefer a warden, but we don't always have one.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:27 PM   #164
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[email protected] wrote:

Fantastic news.  Now if they would just remove critical avoidance from the mobs. 

Take us back to how it was before SF.  Back to a time when player ability instead of two stats separated the good players from the average ones.

Oh, you mean gut crit chance on gear too?

Becuase that's why theres crit avoidance. Because we have over 100% crit chance through gear alone.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:29 PM   #165
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As usual, I do not see anything worth debating, until this at least hits test since we really dont know what this involves. However I did see a few posts about armor progression being thrown off. People not understanding why normal Legendary people should be able to enter Drunder HM or EM zones.

Well I for one am hoping that I can start tanking and finishing Drunder zones. I have all Drunder player made gear, I have the new Reactant BP, I have all X2 EM Jewlery and weapons, but I still could not tank any Drunder instance fully with a group all dressed in similar gear, minus a BP here and there.

Drunder should always have been do-able in Rygorr gear only. True progression should have been, PQ Armour = Rime zones, Rime Armour=Kael zones, Kael Armour(Rygorr)=Drunder, Drunder Armour=EoW , all legendary zones in Easy or Normal mode. Instead we had PQ=tough run through Rime zones, Rime Armour = near impossible Kael zones. Rygorr= good luck attempting Drunder. What I just stated does not apply to Hard Mode or Challenge Modes. Those should be left for the X2 and X4 Raiders who need challenging content for what they are wearing.

In order to even attempt EM Drunder you need to be fully equipped in X2 gear to have a decent shot at it, and at that end what is the point of doing Drunder when your already in better gear from the X2 raid zones. Thus forcing all people to Raid even if they dont want to. I personally am not a raider, never have been, I enjoyed what I could get out of the legendary zones. However I have been locked to Kael and Rime zones for way to long. The X4 Raid geared people sure as heck are getting rich beyond there wildest dreams in our server, becuase only they can do the EM or HM Drunder and EoW zones and they sell the stuff like crazy on our servers. So yeah, I mean I guess I could buy the armour, and maybe then one day I could actually do a zone up there, but thats not the point of the game to me.

All zones need to be earned including X4 Raid zones. But they should follow a path. A fair path. Legendary zones should be for those of us who enjoy hitting up the occasional Zone to slowly build a groups armour or gear over time and X4 Raid people should have their zones as well. HM or challenge mode was a great Idea, that kept out the people who didnt want to take the time to go through all of the elements X4 or X2 Raiding, as in dressing 24 people fully so they might enjoy the occasional 6 person team in a challenging and fun zone. But EM should be left to the multiple people who dont want END GAME material, we just want to get our toons dressed to a point that maybe on the off chance a friend may ask us to join an X4 or X2 raid, we are not going to go "SPLAT" the moment a named Farts in our general direction.

So I say YAY!! to losing the CRTMT, however lets also allow the humble people who have waited patiently in the highest gear they can get, without raiding, to at least enjoy playing in zones we all have paid for. Allow us to finally complete them without having to be in X4 or X2 Raid gear, they are in essence only legendary zones. Let the X4's and X2's have their Challenge Modes, give them better loot, they deserve something from all the work they put intot their Raiding. For the love of Pete let me have my EM crap gear, I dont mind just let me play in Drunder and EoW....  

Aside from Plat farming, what are the zones good for if your already in X4HM gear. Again speaking only of the Easy or Normal modes for those zones.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:30 PM   #166
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This is amazing news.  Thanks Smokejumper!  I feel a new burst of energy to raid again =)

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:32 PM   #167
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[email protected] wrote:

Cyrim wrote:

I disagree. This does not change much for casuals because I am not a believer that CM was the only thing stopping their raid forces from progressing. Casuals tend to fail simple scripts and tactics at a much greater rate. Taking away CM might increase the suvivability some, but it does not change ability to adapt to the situation, or ability to pre-cure, or ability to cover a specific curse, or ability to handle the clickies, or low crit % rates....the list goes on.

I'm sorry. I do not want to personally downgrade casuals. I commend them for their efforts. It's just they tend to fail because all the pieces to the puzzle can't be put together.

Wow, I never said it was the only thing stopping their progression.  I only said the constant regearing was a significant contributing factor to the slow speed of their progression.  That slow speed only served to feed the attrition rate as people simply got tired of gearing recruitXYZ to replace mainABC who left the previous week from being tired of gearing recruitTUV.

Skill, raid build, other contributing factors will continue to gate them to content, I never said it wouldn't.  However they'll get to spend more time on the encounters that are actually gating them, where previously they've been having to re-run EM content to gear recruits before being able to spend time on entry level HM stuffs.

Running a guild that has both HC and Casual raidforces, I've had a pretty solid notion of how much CM and gearing of recruits has affected either force.  And I do see this change helping their speed of progression, but by no means suddenly leap frogging them up the ladder.

I read too much into your comment then. I respect your opinion and will leave it at that.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:37 PM   #168
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Cyrim wrote:

I disagree. This does not change much for casuals because I am not a believer that CM was the only thing stopping their raid forces from progressing. Casuals tend to fail simple scripts and tactics at a much greater rate. Taking away CM might increase the suvivability some, but it does not change ability to adapt to the situation, or ability to pre-cure, or ability to cover a specific curse, or ability to handle the clickies, or low crit % rates....the list goes on.

I'm sorry. I do not want to personally downgrade casuals. I commend them for their efforts. It's just they tend to fail because all the pieces to the puzzle can't be put together.

Ok, in part you are correct.

Casual raiders are not usually more than passive users of ACT.  I personally can only get mine to spit out some DPS to my clipboard after formatting it and have not forced myself to figure out how to make it talk to me. 

I have no clue how to toggle through 'previous' encounters or post different formats on command (DPS parse, Heal parse, whatever).  What's on my static clipboard is all I've got and I usually thumb throught the pics, graphs, and analysis after I log out.  I've never had reason to care to force myself through ACT mastery. 

The hardmode raiders that came on down from high to help my former casual EM guild used ACT 'speak mode' to tell them with a lead when to cure, who to cure, when to preward, whatever.  The HM player running their EM healer was always ahead of me on the cures because they were reacting to ACT voice cues while I was reacting to visual game cues in the player window when group members got dets. 

I had to rehearse fights and get the 'feel' right so yes, Casuals won't go as far as those who've delved into ACT mastery to give them what appears to borderline on precognition.

ACT mastery is in part separates those who Solo All of PR and those who just do 3 mobs and move on because they can't DPS the deathtouch down before the deathtouch goes off.

If ACT were to become EQ2 map easy in it's user interface then some of the differences between casuals and hardcore would probably shrink.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:39 PM   #169
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Please return the shards we spent on red and yellow addorn for crit mit - we may want something else and not the stat you subsitute.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:42 PM   #170
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You paid shards for survivability functionality. Your adornment is still going to serve that purpose.

If you want something else, buy something else, but stop suckling the teat of pity.

It's just shards.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:44 PM   #171
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Maroger wrote:

Please return the shards we spent on red and yellow addorn for crit mit - we may want something else and not the stat you subsitute.

Who needs more raid shards unless you're feeding more than 1 character your shards? 

I only raided 9 months in DOV and I have 140 just chillin. 

Allowing raid shards to be convertable to a set fraction of heroic shards wouldn't be the end of the world though.

(1 raid:2 heroic perhaps?)

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:44 PM   #172
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Maroger wrote:

Please return the shards we spent on red and yellow addorn for crit mit - we may want something else and not the stat you subsitute.

lol if u've spent them on Crit mit adorns for multiple pieces of gear then obviously you have the shards in the bank.. most people have more than enough

thats like asking for them to give me back my colassal reactant because they are nerfing the 2 hander lol.. not happening

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:47 PM   #173
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Wow, so this is the great fix to broken progression content. I'm pretty sure the guilds that are failing in Drunder HM aren't failing because they aren't meeting a crit mit check. I hope by removing crit mit they raise the soft cap for multi attack because everyone and their mother is going to be close to 600 now if we don't have to adorn for CM. Real smart continuing to over inflate HP and let DPS go off into a exponentially high trajectory this expansion. That seems really "forward-extensible."

So, I'll expect to see this pushed out to early, as usual, rife with more broken "features." Thanks.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:48 PM   #174
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Anklesteiner wrote:

Leovinus wrote:

Anklesteiner wrote:

The funny thing is a person in legendary gear going into HM Drunder has just as much survivabilty as someone in a complete set of HM gear now.

Maybe close to (ish, there's a huge HP difference), but not exactly, and they'll have next to no ability to actively contribute to the success of the raid.

But they'll still be able to survive in the content. Which now means there is no survivablity check. Which now means anybody can come into any content and be able to survive. Thus removing any notion of progression.

You couldn't be more wrong if you'd set out to be. 

I think you'll find there's a bit more to progression than surviving.  You may find that the "notion of progression" involves killing things as well.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:49 PM   #175
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Fantastic news.  Now if they would just remove critical avoidance from the mobs. 

Take us back to how it was before SF.  Back to a time when player ability instead of two stats separated the good players from the average ones.

Oh, you mean gut crit chance on gear too?

Becuase that's why theres crit avoidance. Because we have over 100% crit chance through gear alone.

Yes.  That's exactly what I mean.   That was another idea I thought was silly when they put it in the game in the first place.

But this will do for now.  SMILEY

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:50 PM   #176
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S_M_I_T_E wrote:

Cyrim wrote:

I disagree. This does not change much for casuals because I am not a believer that CM was the only thing stopping their raid forces from progressing. Casuals tend to fail simple scripts and tactics at a much greater rate. Taking away CM might increase the suvivability some, but it does not change ability to adapt to the situation, or ability to pre-cure, or ability to cover a specific curse, or ability to handle the clickies, or low crit % rates....the list goes on.

I'm sorry. I do not want to personally downgrade casuals. I commend them for their efforts. It's just they tend to fail because all the pieces to the puzzle can't be put together.

Ok, in part you are correct.

Casual raiders are not usually more than passive users of ACT.  I personally can only get mine to spit out some DPS to my clipboard after formatting it and have not forced myself to figure out how to make it talk to me. 

I have no clue how to toggle through 'previous' encounters or post different formats on command (DPS parse, Heal parse, whatever).  What's on my static clipboard is all I've got and I usually thumb throught the pics, graphs, and analysis after I log out.  I've never had reason to care to force myself through ACT mastery. 

The hardmode raiders that came on down from high to help my former casual EM guild used ACT 'speak mode' to tell them with a lead when to cure, who to cure, when to preward, whatever.  The HM player running their EM healer was always ahead of me on the cures because they were reacting to ACT voice cues while I was reacting to visual game cues in the player window when group members got dets. 

I had to rehearse fights and get the 'feel' right so yes, Casuals won't go as far as those who've delved into ACT mastery to give them what appears to borderline on precognition.

ACT mastery is in part separates those who Solo All of PR and those who just do 3 mobs and move on because they can't DPS the deathtouch down before the deathtouch goes off.

If ACT were to become EQ2 map easy in it's user interface then some of the differences between casuals and hardcore would probably shrink.

All of that can be done with the ingame UI and a good internal clock. ACT just helps enhance those abilities. You don't have to be a master of it to raid HM.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:54 PM   #177
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If HP become king  will the healers get increased heals to be able to heal all those HPs?  It would be nice to see some of the 'broken' issues addressed rather than a blanket revamp like this.  I guess when you let your developers go you have to do the easy fixes.  I wish they would get eq2players back up before this got done  but  hey I just play, pay my monthly fee ( 8 years + to eq2) I guess my opinion  well lets just say   YAAAAAA   another revamp  more excitment in game..   

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:55 PM   #178
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Wow, finally. This is only about 2-3 years too late.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:56 PM   #179
shots01

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I am esctatic ?? LOL that people like me, my lvl 90 fury, MIGHT actually be able to join a group now.  Her crit mig sucks.  I am not a grinder, I dont raid, I can't get groups because my crit mit is too low for most of the groups on the server.

I personally, can hug Sony to pieces for this grand piece of news.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and many cupcakes to you!

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:57 PM   #180
hangingout77

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Mystfit wrote:

I'm curious, How will this affect *the little guy*. As in, non-radier, non-mega geared person. We are basically trolling in the easier beginning DOV instances, but mostly because we want to run 3 people, 3 mercs and scripting is too heavy in many zones to not have 6 real people and not, I assume, because of crit mit. Will we see any progression in our eq2 experience. I'd love it, we've felt so down-trodden for so long, but am not clear enough on crit mit to know it it affected our progression.

For real? This is a prime example of why crit mit should stay. Well to answer it for you it means u can go in to the hardest zone with quest gear and your merc's and be ok. It may take you 10 hours to complet the zone but it will be posable. SOE has made the game very simple. Instead of needing a little of all stats all u need is 2 and the right amount of crit mit for the zone you want to run.... o wait NVM crit mit is being taken out. SO all tanks will be the same all casters will be the same so on and so forth. remember back when it took a week to reach lvl 20? Now we can go from lvl 1 to 90 in a day. seen it done a few times. SOE says they hear us when we give them feed back about the game... I dont beleave they do. I feel that they only hear the few that cry they cant do it and its to hard so they keep makeing things easyer. Look at the Shard gear.... o sorry rygor and thurg gear... cant call it shard gear since you DON'T need shards to craft it i guess. Blah another horable choice by SOE!

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