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Old 01-28-2012, 03:57 PM   #91
lostsandman

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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Blood siphon, nice way to kill your group...

So Bruisers takes similar amount of damage and have  similar amount of snaps as SK?

For completeness, its better to compare those as well

It is still useful as a save I see it used on raids all the time. Does it have draw backs sure. I tried to compare abilities that were similar in use and recast. The ward is infintely better then the bruiser self heal. There just isnt alot of times i am sitting in raid 50% or lower in health where i have time to cast a 1 sec cast time self heal. The heal is also not something i can use to prevent an inc large hit. So the comparison is appropriate.

Bruisers currently dont tank similar amounts of damage and snaps then shadowknights, but it is my point that the changes to bloodletter in combat castable and the new myth cloak effect with possibly making vitae and tap veins crit would make them balanced. I can do another comparison with the aoe snaps as well. I may even include zerkers who imho have comparable aoe snaps for this (zerkers are just mainly screwed with thier defensive temps).

So do they take more or less damage? Or in your opinion the difference is not noticeable? Also what about snaps?

I really like to see proper comparison, not for trolling etc but really curious.

I know for sure, monks have lot more snaps and takes lot less damage than SK.

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Old 01-28-2012, 06:07 PM   #92
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The sk myth cloak might be a good thing to help the sk's but that will only be available to an elite and select few sk's. So what about the other sk's that cannot attain the myth cloak?? I guess they will be walking down the road kickin rocks.

Gear shouldn't be what a sub-class needs as a reason to fix problem that exsist at the core level. We all know that. Any issues that sk's do have need to be addressed as part of the entire focus of what an sk should be. That way all sk's from the elite high end raiding sk's down to the casual sk will benefit. That applies to all fighters as well.

Paladins I thought should be more defensive than the sk since the sk is superior in damage but for an sk to want more survivability yet keep their strong dps would again put the paladin on the back burner. There has to be trade offs.

If gear is what is intended to help a sub-class with issues then the zerker will need more mythical equipment than any other fighter just to fix zerker abilities. However like the crusaders a zerker that gets to much defense will overshadow the guardian. Not saying zerkers do not need help in their abilities cause on raids zerkers just don't add up. In everyday norrath a zerker is fine.

No fighter class should be an ace in the combination of offense, defense, aggro, and utility. Right now I believe that the monk is that fighter. A bruiser would come close.

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Old 01-28-2012, 06:53 PM   #93
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Blood siphon, nice way to kill your group...

So Bruisers takes similar amount of damage and have  similar amount of snaps as SK?

For completeness, its better to compare those as well

It is still useful as a save I see it used on raids all the time. Does it have draw backs sure. I tried to compare abilities that were similar in use and recast. The ward is infintely better then the bruiser self heal. There just isnt alot of times i am sitting in raid 50% or lower in health where i have time to cast a 1 sec cast time self heal. The heal is also not something i can use to prevent an inc large hit. So the comparison is appropriate.

Bruisers currently dont tank similar amounts of damage and snaps then shadowknights, but it is my point that the changes to bloodletter in combat castable and the new myth cloak effect with possibly making vitae and tap veins crit would make them balanced. I can do another comparison with the aoe snaps as well. I may even include zerkers who imho have comparable aoe snaps for this (zerkers are just mainly screwed with thier defensive temps).

So do they take more or less damage? Or in your opinion the difference is not noticeable? Also what about snaps?

I really like to see proper comparison, not for trolling etc but really curious.

I know for sure, monks have lot more snaps and takes lot less damage than SK.

Both brawlers currently take less damage then any tank Monk followed by.bruisers Guards are not far behind and shadowknights are probably the next closest with paladins not far behind them and zerkers trailing behind.

Monks really dont have an aoe snap except mantis leap and provoking stance(kinda). But they excel on single target snaps and defensive temps. I will work on the aoe snap comparison in a bit between bruiser, shadowknight and zerker when i have time.

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Old 01-28-2012, 07:09 PM   #94
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Aull wrote:

The sk myth cloak might be a good thing to help the sk's but that will only be available to an elite and select few sk's. So what about the other sk's that cannot attain the myth cloak?? I guess they will be walking down the road kickin rocks.

Gear shouldn't be what a sub-class needs as a reason to fix problem that exsist at the core level. We all know that. Any issues that sk's do have need to be addressed as part of the entire focus of what an sk should be. That way all sk's from the elite high end raiding sk's down to the casual sk will benefit. That applies to all fighters as well.

Paladins I thought should be more defensive than the sk since the sk is superior in damage but for an sk to want more survivability yet keep their strong dps would again put the paladin on the back burner. There has to be trade offs.

If gear is what is intended to help a sub-class with issues then the zerker will need more mythical equipment than any other fighter just to fix zerker abilities. However like the crusaders a zerker that gets to much defense will overshadow the guardian. Not saying zerkers do not need help in their abilities cause on raids zerkers just don't add up. In everyday norrath a zerker is fine.

No fighter class should be an ace in the combination of offense, defense, aggro, and utility. Right now I believe that the monk is that fighter. A bruiser would come close.

I agree gear shouldnt be the be all end all of class balance, but it does. Just like the old myths were. I believe from what I am told those cloaks are suppose to be our new myth rewards from the DOV timeline quest. They are not raid drops persay but a quest update (in other words it ay require a raid update but i havent been told if its a EM or HM only update).

Monks i agree are a very good class and imho 3 triggers on the death save for either brawler may be a bit much even after those changes i recommended. The heroic AA could just increase duration and loose the extra trigger and still be a decent AA. But monks still do not have the AOE snaps potential of any of the aoe offensive tanks. They only have access to mantis leap AA and kinda (provoking stance AA). Even thier Aoe atks are extremely weak. Utility egh you can claim they have Combat Mastery, but if they plan on tanking its better for them and thier group to take stonecold. Because provoking stance(25) or stonecold(15) alone wont save them from a one shot together though they stack to be a decent 1 shot preventing combo (40). There is not much utility to them beyond that.

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Old 01-28-2012, 08:08 PM   #95
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[email protected] wrote:

I agree gear shouldnt be the be all end all of class balance, but it does. Just like the old myths were.

Back when the talk of mythical weapons was stirring around I was stoked. However for a while only the elite were able to attain them in a quick time. Not long after that if a player (no matter what arch type) didn't have their myth they were basically shunned from most groups. That is because those weapons were so great. Once a player got it then any other weapon for a long time was not needed cause nothing could compair.

It was (for me anyway) what kinda hurt the game overall. It didn't break it, but it sure made thing different for a while for alot a players who didn't have their mythicals after the first two months of release.

Gear should have meaning but it shouldn't be so awesome that nothing else for two years can replace it.

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Old 01-28-2012, 08:36 PM   #96
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Aull wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I agree gear shouldnt be the be all end all of class balance, but it does. Just like the old myths were.

Back when the talk of mythical weapons was stirring around I was stoked. However for a while only the elite were able to attain them in a quick time. Not long after that if a player (no matter what arch type) didn't have their myth they were basically shunned from most groups. That is because those weapons were so great. Once a player got it then any other weapon for a long time was not needed cause nothing could compair.

It was (for me anyway) what kinda hurt the game overall. It didn't break it, but it sure made thing different for a while for alot a players who didn't have their mythicals after the first two months of release.

Gear should have meaning but it shouldn't be so awesome that nothing else for two years can replace it.

I dont think any of these cloak myth effects are as powerful as most of those myth weapon buffs were but it is the same concept, I agree.

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Old 01-29-2012, 10:45 PM   #97
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[email protected] wrote:

Darkonx wrote:

Lol. We're not lying. I'm just that good that I can tank the mobs that I tank on the monk, on an inferior class. It requires a lot more work to do so, I might add.

I'm talking with the reuse that wearing 2x reuse wrists, and every single slot adorned with spell reuse, gives me. It's 48%.

Your numbers are wrong, sorry.

Tribunal mana miracle doesn't cancel when you hit 0% mana. Therefore, it's not at all the same. Manawall CANCELS IF YOU ZERO OUT, which happens after one hit. It's a one hit stoneskin at the cost of your manabar, IF you have mana to use it. If you don't, then it's a non-existant skill.

I've played both classes extensively. It's night and day between the two. It feels like I'm 20 levels higher with gear from five expansions ahead on the monk, in comparison to the SK, when the SK actually HAS better gear. There's absolutely no reason for tanks to be as imbalanced as they are now.

You are wrong. You can get 98.9% reuse in raids on ANY tank with the gear we both have access to. (Shadowknights get MORE)I have 98.9% reuse in raids by default without chi. If you paid attention to what i wear when i tank this is what i have. And as a shadowknight since you claim divine aura is useless i am sure you can use the reuse AA  Avenging invigoration for at least 10% putting you OVER 100% reuse or if thats to hard unholy voracity AA adds another 5% to group. So once again your number are wrong and you are either lying or you obviously dont know what you are talking about.

Neck                  8.4wrist                  8.4wrist                  8.4cloak                  8.4waist                 7.2charm                7.5Adornments       14Heroic AA           10Adornment proc 12%

That is jsut from gear. Bards(5%) and inqusitors(9.6%) give more which is why I am at 98.9% reuse. These are my numbers in raid. My numbers ACCURATE. As a shadowknight you have more reuse via AA then i can get. So dont tell me you cant get 100% reuse and if you dont its a failure on your gearing. The abilities i compared i compared EQUALLY with the same reuse % that EVERY tank can get. I am comparing bruisers vs shadowknights. Both 100% reuse. I agree bruisers are currently better but ALL shadowknights need is that myth cloak effect and bloodletter castable in combat to be just as good as bruisers. If you think vitae and tap veins need to crit fine, It shouldnt unbalance but both classes are the AOE offensive version of thier respective classes. Monks are the more defensive and single target version of the brawler class and they have more defensive temps and longer duration on thier defensive temps then bruisers as should paladins over shadowknights. You shouldnt main tank as well as a guard nor monk nor paladin. But you should be able to offtank/dps better then those classes and have better aoe snaps then those classes. You should be comparable to a bruiser and zerker. Divine aura was removed because no shadowknight would use it from the list below. The list is still however ACCURATE. Bloodletter in combat castable and that cloak effect goes a long way to balancing these classes.

Inner focus  60 sec reuse                                     vs                  hateful respite 60 sec reuse2 PHY only stone skins                                                               1 ANY stoneskin

Impenetrable will 90 sec reuse  12 sec dur          vs                 Furor 2 min reuse 15 sec duravoid buff/20% potency                                                             Avoid buff/20% potency/+hate

Unyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur             vs             Touch of death 3 min reuse 8 sec dur avoid buff/ full heal over time                                                 NO phy damage over 60% of your health.                                                                                                  Stone deaf 1 min reuse                                        vs      Legionaire Conviction 3min recast 20 sec dur3 Magic only stone skins                                                            40% reduction of all magic damageBrawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse  1.5min dur        vs       Bloodletter 1.5 min reuse, UNLIMITED duration3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs                         2 death saves, AFTER both are used then it starts reuse WILL be DOWN for 1 min if it reaches full dur               Will be down for 1.5 min ONLY after its usedif it doesnt reach full dur it will be down longer

Ignore pain 45 sec reuse                                    vs       Blood siphon 1 min reuse100% heal                                                                     Its a HUGE ward  60k+Stone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur                    vs      Manawall 1.5min reuse 12 sec dur15% ALL damage reduction                                         No damage, 10% of dam converts to power dam(this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot)                (Will stop at least one 1 shots)???????                                                               vs       New myth cloak clicky 3min reuse, 8 sec dur                                                                                       40% ALL damage reduction/Aoe rescue

No? For instance, the belt you're using to make the comparison is a heroic belt. Other slots are ONE select item grants reuse, such as the neck from Sullon.

Class balance doesn't rotate around having a specific piece of gear for every single slot. If that has to happen for classes to be COMPARABLE, then it's broken. I listed the correct values on my Sk. I've obviously declined too much gear to you for you to have that much of an advantage.

I'm getting tired arguing with my offtank about what is balanced, when I've played both classes extensively, and you haven't.

Some of the comparisons, like Brawlers Tenacity vs Bloodletter. It has to be some kind of joke to even try to compare those two abilities. One is 2 triggers fo Di over the course of any duration of fight, the other is 3 every few seconds. It's just not even remotely balanced.

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Old 01-30-2012, 03:10 AM   #98
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These abilities all have their strengths and weaknesses. Bloodletter has an Unlimited duration while brawlers tenacity can expire without ever triggering. That is ballanced. Letting bloodletter be recastible in combat would be over powered as hell because it would literally never be down due to the Unlimited duration.

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Old 01-30-2012, 09:05 AM   #99
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Of course it would be down, the recast doesn't start when the ability is used, it's recast starts when either:

A.) All triggers are used up so the ability is removed from maintained spells.

B.) The ability is cancelled.

I'm a Guardian and I always have been, I've been MT for my guild since KoS. Every expansion as far back as I've been playing 1 or 2 Fighter classed have been the preferred MT/OT, class balance would be a nice thing but I don't think it will happen.

Right now I think Guardians are were the most "Defensive" tank is meant to be, I don't think Monks and Bruisers should be bringing all their dps/utility/snaps/defensive abilities and be up there with Guardians defensively. Especially Bruisers who are meant to be the offensive brawler. 

That said, I really don't care anymore, I'm fed up with the same argument year after year, I've accepted that SOE don't care about fighter balance anymore and I have 1 of each Fighter type, Monk/Paladin/Guardian. If it gets to the stage where being a Guardian is hurting my guild I'll switch to the "Current" tank type.

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Old 01-30-2012, 11:37 AM   #100
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Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Of course it would be down, the recast doesn't start when the ability is used, it's recast starts when either:

A.) All triggers are used up so the ability is removed from maintained spells.

B.) The ability is cancelled.

I'm a Guardian and I always have been, I've been MT for my guild since KoS. Every expansion as far back as I've been playing 1 or 2 Fighter classed have been the preferred MT/OT, class balance would be a nice thing but I don't think it will happen.

Right now I think Guardians are were the most "Defensive" tank is meant to be, I don't think Monks and Bruisers should be bringing all their dps/utility/snaps/defensive abilities and be up there with Guardians defensively. Especially Bruisers who are meant to be the offensive brawler. 

That said, I really don't care anymore, I'm fed up with the same argument year after year, I've accepted that SOE don't care about fighter balance anymore and I have 1 of each Fighter type, Monk/Paladin/Guardian. If it gets to the stage where being a Guardian is hurting my guild I'll switch to the "Current" tank type.

I have been playing this game since release and I am also of the opinion that SOE don't care about fighter balance! I think you are right and the best thing to do is to have one of each fighter type. It will certainly be good for my blood pressure SMILEY

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Old 01-30-2012, 03:49 PM   #101
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Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Of course it would be down, the recast doesn't start when the ability is used, it's recast starts when either:

A.) All triggers are used up so the ability is removed from maintained spells.

B.) The ability is cancelled.

I'm a Guardian and I always have been, I've been MT for my guild since KoS. Every expansion as far back as I've been playing 1 or 2 Fighter classed have been the preferred MT/OT, class balance would be a nice thing but I don't think it will happen.

Right now I think Guardians are were the most "Defensive" tank is meant to be, I don't think Monks and Bruisers should be bringing all their dps/utility/snaps/defensive abilities and be up there with Guardians defensively. Especially Bruisers who are meant to be the offensive brawler. 

That said, I really don't care anymore, I'm fed up with the same argument year after year, I've accepted that SOE don't care about fighter balance anymore and I have 1 of each Fighter type, Monk/Paladin/Guardian. If it gets to the stage where being a Guardian is hurting my guild I'll switch to the "Current" tank type.

Guards to me should be the most defensive tank just because they lack in everything you stated about what monk and bruisers have. Any fighter that has a good combo of dps/utility/snaps/defensive abilities will overshadow others who only have defense.

That is where it goes wrong. One fighter that has stronger damage should not be given defensive abilities that rival a fighter who has strong defense but never gets stronger damage in return. I have stated it before but I remember when monk tsunami was unique only to the monk class and it should have remained that way. No other fighter should have received an ability that mocks what the monk class had. That is just an example.

I don't think this debate will ever end. Having six fighters all competeing for one position is just to complicated.

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Old 01-30-2012, 08:40 PM   #102
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The fact that in raiding there is only really one role for fighters is the largest problem really. SOE created the problem, it would have been much better all around had it been something like the below.

1.

Rank tanks DPS as something like:Bruiser > SK > Zerk > Monk > Paladin > GuardianThen their sustained incomming damage to be:Guardian > Paladin > Monk > Zerk > SK > Bruiser

There will then be some sort of Balance, if the difference from top to bottom on both is only 20% or so, all the better.2. Remove ALL snaps and Damage absorbs from all tanks, use the majority of the spaces created to balance 1.3. Give each tank 1 Damage absorb, each tank 2 snaps.Absorbs, they are all on TARGET, so you can cast them on another tank who is tanking, or yourself if it's your ability.Guardian - TOS - 4 shot stone skin - 2 min recast.Zerk - Adrenalin - 50% damage reduction for 20 seconds - 2 min recast.Paladin - Wall of Marr - 2 shot stone skin, 30k ward on termination - 2 min recast.SK - Similar.Monk - Similar.Bruiser - Similar.Snaps - ALL have rescue, then all have an ability similar to Guardian recapture which snaps hate to ALL Tanks in the raid/group, or snaps to target etc.Now, all tanks can MT all content, not just the 1 with the most/best abilities, DPS/AOE/Inc damage is more just flavor than what determines who is MT. Obviously SOE would have to be very careful when adding snaps/damage absorbs, to any class, or just stay away from them all together. All tanks can do heroic content because they all have 2 snaps, and at least the 1 damage absorb.

Personally I'd much prefer a system like this, but ahh well. Like I said, nothing will ever happen, we'll all just keep arguing that class X/Y/Z cant have that 1 role in raids from expansion to expansion SMILEY

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Old 01-31-2012, 12:37 AM   #103
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Soul_Dreamer wrote:

The fact that in raiding there is only really one role for fighters is the largest problem really. SOE created the problem, it would have been much better all around had it been something like the below.

1.

Rank tanks DPS as something like:Bruiser > SK > Zerk > Monk > Paladin > GuardianThen their sustained incomming damage to be:Guardian > Paladin > Monk > Zerk > SK > Bruiser

There will then be some sort of Balance, if the difference from top to bottom on both is only 20% or so, all the better.2. Remove ALL snaps and Damage absorbs from all tanks, use the majority of the spaces created to balance 1.3. Give each tank 1 Damage absorb, each tank 2 snaps.Absorbs, they are all on TARGET, so you can cast them on another tank who is tanking, or yourself if it's your ability.Guardian - TOS - 4 shot stone skin - 2 min recast.Zerk - Adrenalin - 50% damage reduction for 20 seconds - 2 min recast.Paladin - Wall of Marr - 2 shot stone skin, 30k ward on termination - 2 min recast.SK - Similar.Monk - Similar.Bruiser - Similar.Snaps - ALL have rescue, then all have an ability similar to Guardian recapture which snaps hate to ALL Tanks in the raid/group, or snaps to target etc.Now, all tanks can MT all content, not just the 1 with the most/best abilities, DPS/AOE/Inc damage is more just flavor than what determines who is MT. Obviously SOE would have to be very careful when adding snaps/damage absorbs, to any class, or just stay away from them all together. All tanks can do heroic content because they all have 2 snaps, and at least the 1 damage absorb.

Personally I'd much prefer a system like this, but ahh well. Like I said, nothing will ever happen, we'll all just keep arguing that class X/Y/Z cant have that 1 role in raids from expansion to expansion

I agree with what you have on the rankings. I would also like to mention that each sub-class should be an antithesis of each other. They can share some abilities at the class level but at the sub-class level allow differences that have reason for having two in each class.

I couldn't enjoy my zerker being every bit as strong defensively as the guard nor would the guard being every bit as strong of offense as the zerker. Again why have two if both are the same. If the zerker did get an defensive ability similar to the guardian then its duration should only be half of what the guards is and the reuse twice as long. If the guard had an offensive ability similar to the zerker then its duration should be half and its reuse twice as long. That would be acceptable at least to me.

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Old 01-31-2012, 06:31 AM   #104
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You can't ballance tanks with DPS because the DPS of tank class archtype is meaningless in the current game. The class that gets the best defensive abilities becomes the best tank class. The top line in defense is the only thing that matters. That is why they made the weakest defensive tank (Bruisers) about equal to the strongest (Guardians) at the same time removing the Bruiser DPS advantage. The devs know this. The current ballance is very good right now.

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Old 01-31-2012, 07:20 AM   #105
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Novusod wrote:

You can't ballance tanks with DPS because the DPS of tank class archtype is meaningless in the current game. The class that gets the best defensive abilities becomes the best tank class. The top line in defense is the only thing that matters. That is why they made the weakest defensive tank (Bruisers) about equal to the strongest (Guardians) at the same time removing the Bruiser DPS advantage. The devs know this. The current ballance is very good right now.

Between brawlers and guardian perhaps; but not the other tanks.

This is why this issue raises its ugly head constantly - there are more than 3 tank subclasses in the game!

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Old 01-31-2012, 07:22 AM   #106
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Novusod wrote:

You can't ballance tanks with DPS because the DPS of tank class archtype is meaningless in the current game. The class that gets the best defensive abilities becomes the best tank class. The top line in defense is the only thing that matters. That is why they made the weakest defensive tank (Bruisers) about equal to the strongest (Guardians) at the same time removing the Bruiser DPS advantage. The devs know this. The current ballance is very good right now.

The DPS advantage hasn't been removed, it's just been lessened. Or are you,  a duel weilding brawler, claiming you do the same DPS as a Guardian behind a shield when both are defensive? Sorry, I call BS to this. The only reason you think Balance is good right now is because Bruisers are one of the classes at the top of the heap this expansion. When fighting progression mobs, a guild is stupid to not use a Brawler/Guardian, if they use any other tank type they're making it harder for themselves. Some (Zerks) are shockingly un-balanced right now.

The balancing of DPS against sustained incomming damage is just to give all tanks a level base, the specialisations/choices then come in their buffs/AOE/ST advantages. 

The whole idea I outlined wasn't to balance tanks with DPS, it's to achieve "All tanks can MT" by making it so that more than 1 tank is needed to perform the role, NOT giving all tanks all abilities to perform the role and thereby making them all the same.

The fact that there exists the one "MT" role is half the trouble because everyone wants to do it. It's what 90% of fighter whinging/calls for nerf etc are all for. If it took 3 tanks working together to perform this role it would be a lot less of an issue.

It would be much more preferable:If each tank only had 1 Large defensive ability for stopping the large AOE's/Stopping Spikes, and it took 2-4 tanks in a raid using those abilities to protect/snap agro to the MT.Than a couple of tanks each expansion had the preffered qualities/abilities needed to perform the MT role and the rest didn't.

EG: Instead of a Guardian cycling Tower of Stone/Last man Standing/Perfect Counter on large AOE's, you'd have the Guardian using Tower of Stone, and the Paladin/Monk using their abilities ON THE GUARDIAN when needed. Alternatively a SK could be tanking and using whatever his ability is and the Guardian/Bruiser cycling theirs on the SK to keep him alive.

I'm not getting drawn into this argument again though, or sit here arguing about the merits/drawbacks of proposed systems because non of it matters. SOE will do what they will and fighter balance will continue to sway different ways each expansion. There's just no point in sitting here pi**ing into the wind.

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Old 01-31-2012, 10:55 AM   #107
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Novusod wrote:

You can't ballance tanks with DPS because the DPS of tank class archtype is meaningless in the current game. The class that gets the best defensive abilities becomes the best tank class. The top line in defense is the only thing that matters. That is why they made the weakest defensive tank (Bruisers) about equal to the strongest (Guardians) at the same time removing the Bruiser DPS advantage. The devs know this. The current ballance is very good right now.

What they did is gave the once weakest defensive tank (bruiser) awesome defensive capability. They didn't necessarily remove the bruiser dps advantange via direct nerf to abilities but rather raised all other fighters up. Well except the guardian.

Now the reason I think that we are seeing monks and bruisers being brought up to the greatness they are defensively is that end game raid content is basically the only area that veteran players are interested in. That is all they have to do. With content catering to the end game more and more each expac or update there is no reason for a bruiser or any fighter to be an offensive tank. So I agree with Novusod in this area cause on raids if a fighter can't stay alive then they can't dps anyway. Hence a fighter that is alive will do more dps than a dead fighter.

Again if there was more overland content that allowed for any fighter to be offensive then yes I can see there being fighters known for their offense.

While I do not think balance is possible with six fighters I will say that for defensive raid main tanking I would rate them as #1 guard, #2 monk, #3 bruiser, #4 sk, #5 paladin, and last zerk.

Defensively I see no reason for a dev to look at guards, monks, and bruisers.

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Old 01-31-2012, 02:57 PM   #108
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Aull wrote:

Novusod wrote:

You can't ballance tanks with DPS because the DPS of tank class archtype is meaningless in the current game. The class that gets the best defensive abilities becomes the best tank class. The top line in defense is the only thing that matters. That is why they made the weakest defensive tank (Bruisers) about equal to the strongest (Guardians) at the same time removing the Bruiser DPS advantage. The devs know this. The current ballance is very good right now.

What they did is gave the once weakest defensive tank (bruiser) awesome defensive capability. They didn't necessarily remove the bruiser dps advantange via direct nerf to abilities but rather raised all other fighters up. Well except the guardian.

Now the reason I think that we are seeing monks and bruisers being brought up to the greatness they are defensively is that end game raid content is basically the only area that veteran players are interested in. That is all they have to do. With content catering to the end game more and more each expac or update there is no reason for a bruiser or any fighter to be an offensive tank. So I agree with Novusod in this area cause on raids if a fighter can't stay alive then they can't dps anyway. Hence a fighter that is alive will do more dps than a dead fighter.

Again if there was more overland content that allowed for any fighter to be offensive then yes I can see there being fighters known for their offense.

While I do not think balance is possible with six fighters I will say that for defensive raid main tanking I would rate them as #1 guard, #2 monk, #3 bruiser, #4 sk, #5 paladin, and last zerk.

Defensively I see no reason for a dev to look at guards, monks, and bruisers.

Its more like 1. Monk 2. Bruiser 3. Guardian 4. Shadowknight 5. Paladin 6. Berserker. Thats for inc damage for themself. Guards do protect the group/raid better tho and have amazing stuff to do so. But for the inc damage on the tank itself both brawlers wins hands down.

Both warriors suffer alot wearing a shield in dps loss guards got the tools to handle that tho with the update in the end of SF.

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Old 01-31-2012, 11:29 PM   #109
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Netty wrote:

Its more like 1. Monk 2. Bruiser 3. Guardian 4. Shadowknight 5. Paladin 6. Berserker. Thats for inc damage for themself. Guards do protect the group/raid better tho and have amazing stuff to do so. But for the inc damage on the tank itself both brawlers wins hands down.

Both warriors suffer alot wearing a shield in dps loss guards got the tools to handle that tho with the update in the end of SF.

This from what i see in game is 100% accurate.

And there is no longer a dps vs survivability paradigm with tanks

Paladins, monks, gaurds, should survive a tiny bit better as a maintank and have slightly better single target snaps. SK, zerk, bruiser should dps better and have better Aoe Snaps/ and if possible survive a bit better vs multiple npcs.

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Old 02-01-2012, 01:08 PM   #110
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A monk MT with a guard support in MT group is hands down the most powerful tanking in game.  The difference in that tanks ability to survive as well as dps is miles beyond everyone else (with exception to bruiser, only slightly better).

Tanking mechanics overall need a revamp.  Us argueing about it though will do little, cause when SOE comes to the realization they will not form their sollution based upon our endless ranting.

In short, suck it up till they finally have the time in their schedule to acknowledge the issue.

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Old 02-01-2012, 01:50 PM   #111
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I have little faith here. I have yet to see any semi-active participation from a dev on any fighter issue in some time.

If waiting is the answer then all of us here might as well throw in the towel cause that is all we do. It disturbs me that almost a year later the rest of the DOV content still has not been released and what should have been given this month is now pushed back to April.

As far as arguements go I feel that this threat did get rough but now we for the most part are being respectful even when we disagree.

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Old 02-01-2012, 04:57 PM   #112
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Official news and announcements has an interesting read. Crit mit removed.

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Old 02-01-2012, 05:11 PM   #113
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I wish Warriors had there buckler line back.

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Old 02-03-2012, 08:23 AM   #114
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Gungo's right, SKs and brawlers are completely balanced:

Inner focus  60 sec reuse                                     2 PHY only stone skins                                       

Impenetrable will 90 sec reuse  12 sec dur          avoid buff/20% potency                             

Unyielding resolve 3min reuse 10sec dur             avoid buff/ full heal over time                                                                         

Stone deaf 1 min reuse                              3 Magic only stone skins                           

Brawlers Tenacity 2.5min reuse  1.5min dur        vs                  POCKET BRAWLER3 death saves, but drops after 90 secs            WILL be DOWN for 1 min, regardless               

Ignore pain 45 sec reuse                          100% heal                                        

Stone cold 45 sec reuse 20 sec dur                15% ALL damage reduction                          (this will not save a bruiser from any 1 shot)

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Old 02-03-2012, 11:12 AM   #115
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Can you please post the full summary avoidance report for that fight if possible?

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Old 02-03-2012, 02:15 PM   #116
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Brawlers need nerfed or other tanks need a huge buff :/

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Old 02-03-2012, 02:27 PM   #117
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Brawlers need nerfed or other tanks need a huge buff :/

But we've known this since expansion launch.

Either play the OP class or wait atleast an expansion till things are fixed.  We've all been playing long enough to understand how the game works.

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Old 02-03-2012, 03:40 PM   #118
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Well im going to put the zerk aside for now and stop making threads about fixes so grats! Why well sems tallon is back posting hes awsome ideas everywhere so i just lost the hope for this class again. I dont care if i get banned for typing this... but ty for ruin this class tallon. Sadly i dont think you can ruin it that much more now.

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Old 02-03-2012, 04:13 PM   #119
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It is funny/weird how this whole debate about how each fighter should be. I doubt there will ever be a middle ground for all six fighters.

What ever fighter gets some love will be looked upon as the fighter who is overpowerd. Like the sk's in tso to brawlers today. This circle will not end.

Netty I enjoy all your ideas. I also believe that Gungo and Atan look at all fighters strengths and weaknesses and make valuable suggestions as to what they believe each needs.

It is a collective effort from us all to give reasonable ideas. So don't give up.

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Old 02-03-2012, 07:36 PM   #120
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Aull wrote:

It is funny/weird how this whole debate about how each fighter should be. I doubt there will ever be a middle ground for all six fighters.

What ever fighter gets some love will be looked upon as the fighter who is overpowerd. Like the sk's in tso to brawlers today. This circle will not end.

Netty I enjoy all your ideas. I also believe that Gungo and Atan look at all fighters strengths and weaknesses and make valuable suggestions as to what they believe each needs.

It is a collective effort from us all to give reasonable ideas. So don't give up.

Brawlers are way ahead of SKs in TSO compared to the rest.

SKs in TSO were basicly Guardians who could heal and with the only death save in the game at the time.

Monks in DoV are Guardians with Strikethrough Immunity/Rediculous Avoidance/3 Death Saves/Horrendous DPS and Threat.

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