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Old 01-21-2012, 01:34 AM   #61
SacDaddy420

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slippery wrote:

Your whole premise is false. You are implying a Wizard is not competitive under any situation ever, which a complete hoax. Incorrect, that is not my premise.  Do you ever get sat from raid? No Do you ever win parses? Yes Do you ever win zonewides? In drunder?  If we had a terrible or average warlock then yes I would.  Unfortunetly Drunder is 9/10ths ae trash, and we have a good one. If everything you wanted to imply in this thread was true the answers would be I never get put in raid if someone else is on, and I can't possibly win a parse ever. Stop blowing things out of proportion and putting words in my mouth.  Your exagerations are imbicilic and detracting. I haven't seen a single parse from Mapleweed or Koldsteel that I don't think Koncept either has or could beat, and that is without anything special for his group. I assume this is a typo and you meant he could compete and win.   I highly doubt this.  Im sure he's simply amazing and 10 times better than me, but I havent seen any 600K gunnr's dropped in the parse thread.  And thats what it would take.  This THIS ^^ is the premise of my thread.  Wizards cannot out dps burst damage preds (and bstlrds for that matter).  I think we should.  I think wizards should be on equal grounds with preds not 50K-100K behind even using miracles and blessings; and tbh, bstlrds should be nerfed hard.  They have too much utlity to parse as high and as fast as they are able to. The fact that classes trade the top of the parse, and that includes Wizard, inherently implies balance through different strengths and weaknesses. You can't even make a blanket argument of single vs ae, but that is far too broad. Preds and beastlords have too many strengths and not enough weaknesses.  A month ago Gaige said that he won the majority of parses in your guild.   Was he lying?  Does Majority somehow equal Equality in your world? Wizards are solid consistent competitive dps under every situation. I bet you compete on the zonewide in Drunder if not individual encounters. I also bet the other person varies. Jack of all trades.  Masters of none.  Not what I signed up for.  A powerful wizard should be feared. Beastlords have the highest potential on encounters that don't screw them (which cause them to plumet enough that you should probably replace them in raid). You won't hear me argue that. Do I see it changing? Probably not. The difference between the good and the bad is too large, and your average beastlord isn't out parsing everyone. The Mechanics they use can cause massive differences in top and bottom.  No I think its more along the lines of hardly any have the gear yet to even compete at our level.   Once they do, the outcry will become even louder.   Is it somehow "harder" for them to hit buttons and turn on auto attack?  I doubt it.  I'll admit I have no idea how one plays, so please enlighten me as to what is so difficult about them that justifies your stance and their superiority when done correctly.
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Old 01-21-2012, 02:36 AM   #62
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I love that your idea is basically no more than a RP concept. 'wizards should be feared' wow what a vague standard of ability and performance. Might as well say 'make wizards uber l33tsauce. Go.' Start talking in technical terms rather than what you 'feel' and you might actually make some headway. If you insist on sticking with 'i don't like how wizards are doing, it doesn't feel right to me' you will get nothing.

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Old 01-21-2012, 02:52 AM   #63
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I love that his idea of we can't compete is a 30 second fight, half of which the predator is hitting everything for max damage. Talking about a fight that has been on farm for an entire year is a really good way to get your point across. Especially when it is a fight we haven't even pulled in months because there is no point in going to the zone. But hey, keep making your point on single mob really quick burn fights and see how far it gets you. It'll get you the same place that argument has got you for the past year you've been making it. You have no idea how a Beastlord plays, so you shouldn't even talk about it. A Beastlord that just hits buttons and turns on auto attack is going to parse half of every other dps class. Sure, Gaige won a lot of parses. That doesn't mean classes are imbalanced or that Koncept wasn't competing with him on those fights, and even beating him on the same encounters. Or even our Conjuror and Necro.
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Old 01-21-2012, 03:43 AM   #64
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koldsteel is the best assassin in the game playing the best single target dps class in the game. if you are beating him on parses you are doing fine.

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Old 01-21-2012, 04:12 AM   #65
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If they make my pet immune to death I have no problem having them nerf my dps.

Example: If I don't have a shaman in my group warding my pet, I am useless on half of the fights in drunder.

Also as far as unlinked ae fights in drunder go, Not 0.

Mystikus. If I were still a warlock I'd use those to pad the crap out of my parse, even if it is mostly wasted dps!~

Tallon Zek. I believe this qualifies due to the amount of single adds. Sullon Zek would be a stretch, but it could be included if you wanted it to.

Vallon Zek. (Will have a lot of unlinked adds in addition to the melting linked ones.)

So 3. Maybe 4 depending on how you feel.

I would consider adding Gindan to the list of wizard vs warlock competitive fights at some point soon because the adds melt before too many aoes can be cast. Grindstone could also be considered at some point to due to amount of add hp since they won't last more than 3-4 casts soon.

Also if a beastlord main in any guild isn't geared by now, then they shouldn't have solo quested to 90/320.

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Old 01-21-2012, 05:43 AM   #66
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I use one example of pretty much a training dummy for a raid like npu's, equils and revs, and you think Im basing my whole arguement on it.   Gimme a break.

I say one thing to try and be something other than angry all the time at you haters, and I get told my whole basis is RP?  Get a clue.   (btw if you dont think EVERQUEST 2 has any basis in the fantasy genre....I dont know what to tell you)

Buff, Sullon zek is not unlinked adds.  cmon man. They are singles.  talk about a stretch..

Gindan Angler is one of the fights that falls squarely into the "mine" category.  You asked if I won parses, well that is one everytime.  But what you people dont understand, is that if I take 3 nameds a night, the pred takes 10, and the alt BL blows me away whenever he feels like bringing him in I DONT FEEL LIKE THAT IS BALANCED SO I COME AND I SAY SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

If it was simply a skill thing I would accept that.  Contrary to all your beliefs Im sure, I am not a whiner nor do I enjoy looking like one.   I feel its a mechanics issue.   I believe that with the explosion of MA, the addition of even more hits with Flurry, the inclusion of things like Combat Mastery, that this game is eschewed hard towards melee atm.  Spells have what?  Potency? We share that.   Im casting and competing with the same spells I used when everyone had no more than 100 MA.  I get no reliable double attack save the 5 seconds the illy controls.   I have 22.5 passive SDA in raid, but does something good like Ice Comet double a quarter of the time?  heck no and dont tell me it does or I will flood your inbox with Special attack reports.   Ice Spears doubles 60% of the time and IC does it maybe 10%.

Anyways Im done.  Argueing with you people tires me out.  I dont even need to convice any of you of anything.  No devs prolly gonna even read this far into the thread.

Have a wonderful night.

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Old 01-21-2012, 06:01 AM   #67
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[email protected] wrote:

I say one thing to try and be something other than angry all the time at you haters, and I get told my whole basis is RP?  Get a clue.   (btw if you dont think EVERQUEST 2 has any basis in the fantasy genre....I dont know what to tell you)

The fact that EQ2 is a high fantasy game doesn't lend legitimacy to the 'wizards should be feared' idea. Sorry. Pretty much every post you have made is like an artist trying to fix something mechanical. This is not viable. If you want a mechanics issue to be fixed you need to start thinking and talking like a technical designer.

Classes aren't balanced around how empowered they should make the player feel. Why? Because if they did it wouldn't work.

You are upset with mechanics and you are arguing for your position with aesthetics.

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Old 01-21-2012, 07:24 AM   #68
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[email protected] wrote:

I believe that with the explosion of MA, the addition of even more hits with Flurry, the inclusion of things like Combat Mastery, that this game is eschewed hard towards melee atm.  Spells have what?  Potency? We share that.   Im casting and competing with the same spells I used when everyone had no more than 100 MA.  I get no reliable double attack save the 5 seconds the illy controls.

Your data is myopic by neglecting to mention casting speed, ability reuse (which is not even an option to reforge and takes 2 classes' temp buffs to cap), and base spell vs CA reuse. 

Your spells hit harder and are up more quickly than less damaging pred CAs, and you should be capped on cast/reuse solo. These variances help to keep wizards and preds competitive. 

So again, lumping BLs and Preds together is illogical.

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Old 01-21-2012, 03:28 PM   #69
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Auto attack + proc's now is either the same percentage or LESS than it was years ago. 

I also found it extremely funny that I went to look at the Assassin parse thread, and on page 2 there is Sacdaddy making the argument in 2008 how underpowered Wizards are and how overpowered Assassins are. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 2008 was Confirmed. What happened in Confirmed? I rarely ever lost parses as a Wizard.

Some things never change though, like your argument that the class you play is underpowered. Nevermind you saying you can win certain fights every time. Fights are stylistic. Classes are stylistic. They are also balanced. When the fight and the class line up guess what happens.

But we get it. You win parses, but it isn't enough. You need to be able to win all the parses.

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Old 01-22-2012, 01:55 PM   #70
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One thing they should change to make things better for casters is to add the Spell Double Attack option to reforging.  Melee can reforge to MA or Ae Auto, yet casters only get options for their wands.  Where the hell is our Spell Double Attack option?  We are capped on casting speed/reuse - and the wand damage is laughable.

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Old 01-24-2012, 05:32 PM   #71
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Hello, this is my first time posting on the official forums in ages. I feel compelled to post here because I am passionate about the Wizard class, and I too am feeling the strain on the class lately. This will be a long post and I hope somebody appreciates the time that I've put into writing this even if they don't agree with my points. I will be pointing out some imbalances, but there will be no calls for nerfs in this post. I am committed to fairness; every class should have a place. Lately Wizad just seems to not really have a niche. I put a lot of effort into playing my class, but I do not feel that my combat performance reflects the effort that I put into it. Some of these problems are not restricted to Wizard alone.Problem 1 - Melee characters have more opportunities for growth. Mages gain increased DPS from these stats: Potency, Crit Bonus, Ability Modifier, Intelligence, Disruption, Cast Speed, Reuse Speed, and Doublecast. Scouts benefit from the same stats (Swap Intelligence for Agility, and Weapon Skills for Disruption, and then subtract Doublecast), but they also benefit from: Haste, Multi-Attack, DPS, Flurry, Weapon Damage Bonus, Autoattack Multiplier, Strikethrough, Accuracy, Melee AE, and their weapon's ratio! Total stats for Mage DPS growth = 8. Total stats for Scout DPS growth = 17.Problem 2 - Melee characters have more buffs to benefit from than Mages. Part of this is related to having fewer stats for growth, but there is a separate issue too. This issue is quality and quantity of available buffs. Just about everybody has a buff to increase melee dps, but mage buffs are comparatively scarce. Also Scout stats are plentiful in the form of buffs. The stats that Mages gain DPS from are much weaker in power. There are numerous melee-triggered damage proc buffs, but only a few spell-triggered damage procs. There are also melee buffs for which there is no caster parallel - Combat Mastery and Stampede, anyone?Problem 3 - Wizard benefits less from buffs than from other classes. This is further separate from the previous problems, because in addition to dealing with poorer quality and quantity buffs compared to Scouts, Wizards gain less from the few Mage buffs that do exist than other Mages gain. Summoners get double the amount of damage from damage procs such as Peace of Mind, Frigid Gift, and Perfection of the Maestro. This is because their pet also triggers the damage procs. I often have 12-18k dps from these kind of procs, but my guild's Conjuror has 20-30k. I love getting the Upbeat Tempo buff from Troubadors. It does a lot to improve my DPS, but as good as it is for me, it is vastly superior for other classes. Wizards have few DoTs compared to Necromancer or Warlock, and both of these classes get a TON more DPS from UT than I do. Upbeat Tempo is generally quite inferior to Time Compression, because +2-3 DoT ticks every time is more reliable than +5% chance to doublecast. Lastly I will highlight Time Warp. Both of Wizard's largest spells are unable to doublecast. On a single-target fight, I consider an extra 400-600k damage out of a TW to be a very good one. A Conjuror is capable of doublecasting his hardest hitting spell, Elemental Blast. A doubled EB is an extra 1-1.2 million damage, plus they can get another spell and maybe pet spell in too. A Conjuror probably gets between 1-1.5 million extra damage out of a Time Warp in total.Problem 4 - Wizard burst DPS is a thing of the past. It takes me a good 15-20 seconds to "spin up" and then my DPS hits a plateau. We've got 2 burst damage spells and both are pretty rotten compared to burst damage attacks of other classes including Warlock, Assassin, Ranger and Conjuror. Fiery Blast is our first burst damage spell. FB is extremely sensitive to failure and not very rewarding in most situations. It takes 10 seconds to charge up, and then strikes our target for 35% (?) of the damage dealt during that window. It does not doublecast, it does not crit, it does not benefit from damage from procs, and it is not benefit from spell doublecasts during the window. On an AE heavy fight, I can sometimes push FB up to 800k-1200k, but that is very difficult and rare. Single-target requires me having all of my heavy hitters up at once, and due to varying recast times this is a rare occurrence. I consider a hit for 450k on single-target to be a good one, but most of the time it is 250k-350k. If I get interrupted, stunned, stifled, resisted, or otherwise fail a spell during the charge up time, it will dramatically reduce the damage. It will also fail completely if I die or if my target dies during the window. I would like to see FB converted into a plain vanilla single-target nuke. As it is, it is hypersensitive to failure and does not inflict a lot of damage in most situations. Keeping its current cast/recast time, I think a hit for 550k-750k would be appropriate and it would be better in all situations except massive AE. Our other burst spell is Manaburn, and MB has not scaled up very well into the current game. My MB hits for 950k-1200k most of the time, about the same as a Conjuror's Elemental Blast. The problem is that MB is an inferior spell in every way. Conjuror's EB is super fast, short reuse, hits hard, and is fully able to benefit from stat modifiers. Wizard's MB is slow to cast, has a longer reuse, cannot crit, cannot doublecast, drains all my power, and its damage drops off dramatically if my power is not 100% full to begin with. MB is very difficult to use on fights with power drains, and there are plenty of those. MB also has a bit of a spin up time. In addition to its slow cast speed, I have to cast 2 debuffs and 3 temporary buffs to maximize it, and this takes a good bit of extra time. I think a full MB cycle is about 8 seconds, far longer than the 2ish seconds for a Conjuror's Elemental Blast. I see 3 solutions to fixing Manaburn. 1) Keep the spirit of the spell the same, and bring the damage more in line to reflect the EXTREMELY high cost of using Manaburn. I feel that a 5 million damage hit would be appropriate, keeping the spell exactly the same in every other way. 2) Shorten the cast and reuse times to be more in line with Conjuror's EB, and change it to calculate its damage based on MAXIMUM power instead of CURRENT power, and then change it to cost only a little bit of power. This would make it less prone to failure on power drain fights, and better speed, without changing the spirit of the spell. 3) Change the spell completely to something that is fully able to doublecast, crit, etc. I'd personally prefer Option 3 because I just don't think dumping all your power into 1 "big" hit is a very good mechanic to go by.Problem 5 - Lots of our DPS is conditional. In addition to FB and MB being sensitive to failure as described above, we have some other spells that are unreliable. We have Fusion and Blast of Devastation. Both are frontal cone AEs that are very hard to aim - especially against giant-sized NPCs that are so common these days. Fusion has a narrower cone and shorter range so it is especially hard to aim. Fusion has a 3-target limit, but I almost never see it hit 2 targets, much less all 3. NPCs just don't like to stand close enough together to get hit by Fusion. We've also got a quick nuke called Thunderclap. TC has an AA that gives it a second and third hit, greatly raising its damage potential. The problem is that this AA restricts the additional hits to being short ranged. There are plenty of situations where I cannot be in melee range to use Fusion, BoD, and the advanced Thunderclap, so I lose a lot of DPS. I changed my AAs to buy something other than the Thunderclap enhancing AA. I figured having a little bit of extra DPS all the time is better than having a lot of extra DPS in very rare situations. The minimum solution here is to widen the cone and range of Fusion and remove the range restrictions on the Thunderclap AA. A better solution would be to change Fusion and BoD into targeted AE spells instead. Think like a "Green" AE, except that they can hit on unlinked targets surrounding the primary target. I never understood why Sorcerers got melee ranged spells. What ever happened to being a ranged DPS class?Problem 6 - Wizards have the worst aggro management of all DPS classes. I have successfully yanked aggro from my guild's MT a couple of times when I wasn't closely watching my aggro. Sometimes I have to slow down my DPS to avoid getting aggro while others are going full throttle. All Scouts have good aggro control in the form of hate transfers, detaunt procs, detaunt poisons, and positional dropping abilities or passive hate reduction. Summoners split their aggro with their pets. Warlock's mythical effect triggers a hate position drop. Wizard has none of these things. We have a pitiful 4% (9% with AA) hate transfer. We have Arcane Bewilderment like all other mages, and then we've got 2 de-taunt spells that are so weak that they are not worth casting. I'd like to see more passive aggro management for Wizard, such as the Befuddle buff that Rogues enjoy for an example.Problem 7 - We are crippled while moving. Situations where moving and repositioning are required are plentiful these days. While moving, I can cast 2 spells - Arcane Bewilderment which is usually already down because I've been using it for hate control, and Thunderclap. While moving I can get around 35-50k damage out of TC. Scouts are not similarly restricted. They can toggle on their ranged autoattack for 100-150k damage or even more. Maybe they can even move in sync with their target and not have to turn off DPS at all! I lose a lot of ground on bosses that require a lot of moving. Being able to cast Ball of Fire while moving would be a good solution.Problem 8 - Spell Weapon autoattack is poorly implemented. This is related to Problem 1 but has distinct issues. Fully itemizing for SW stats is essential, as is tossing around some buffs to various classes for these stats. Fixing this would fix Problems 1, 2, and 7. I often see Rangers and Assassins getting 70-90k dps from their autoattack, up to 50% of their parse! I think that amount is absurdly overpowered, but since I'm not calling for nerfs I think getting SW autoattack up a bit is the solution. My SW autoattack does about 400-600 dps currently. I think getting it to a minimum of 10k is important. In addition to being poorly itemized for, and exactly ZERO buffs for SW autoattack existing, there are mechanics problems. SW autoattack triggers melee procs such as Blade Chime, and it deals crushing damage. It should trigger spell procs instead, and deal Magic damage as the default type. We should also be given one of two possible ways to change the damage type. The first way to allow us to change the damage type of our SW autoattack is to give each mage class a couple of self, permanent buffs that change the type. For example, Wizard and Conjuror could each get a self buff that converts SW autoattack to Fire type or a different one for Ice type. The other way to allow us to change damage type involves using the ammo slot. I am NOT talking about consumable ammo here! I am talking about using a "crystal" or some such in the ammo slot. A Fire Crystal could make our SW autoattack hit for fire type damage. Also, since Arrows and Throwing Ammo also boost the damage a little bit, Crystals could do the same. Make 3 tiers of crystals - crafted, heroic, raid. having a crystal equipped could add a little damage in addition to changing the outgoing damage type.Problem 9 - Wizard has lackluster temporary buffs. We have Frigid Gift and Surge of Ro, both are damage procs. FG is very good - it is groupwide, hits for 7-14k per hit, lasts 29 seconds, and triggers off melee or spells. Surge of Ro is in dire need of help. SoR is self only, hits for 4-6k per hit, lasts 30 seconds, and triggers off spells only. The worst part of SoR is that its damage trigger is a DoT! Because it is a DoT, it is inevitable that we end up cutting off the last 1-2 ticks of the DoT, reducing the damage considerably. I think converting it to a nuke instead of DoT is essential, and since it is self only it should do more damage than FG. I think 15-30k per proc of SoR would be appropriate. Also we need an additional temporary buff! Warlocks get Focused Casting, which lets them have 100% doublecast for a short time. Wizard has no parallel to this at all. I think it would be useful, and not step on the toes of Warlocks to give us a self buff that gives us a few seconds of guaranteed maximum damage on spell hits. A self-only, spell-version of Combat Mastery, if you would.In summary, we just haven't had any attention in a very long time. Summoners got shared pet stats because it was a necessary balancing change. Warlocks had their Plaguebringer nuke converted into a massive DoT when Velious came out. Wizards on the other hand just haven't had much attention. In the last 2 years, Wizards have received inferior abilities than other DPS classes and this is really starting to show. Summoners gained extremely powerful things such as Elemental Blast (Conj), Accelerated Decay (Necro), and Soulburn (both). Their pets also gained a couple of new spells through AAs. Assassins got Shadowstep and Exploit Weakness, and both parse very high. During this time Wizards have gained Fiery Blast, Blast of Devastation, and Sanguine Sacrifice. All of these are comparatively weak when viewed beside abilities gained by other DPS classes in the same time. I will admit that BoD parses pretty well though, but only on fights with at least 3 mobs close together. Ultimately I think the original DPS tiers should be honored. Sorceror + Predator T1, Summoner + Rogue T2. I see lots of people say there is no place for T2 dps, and summoners and rogues should have T1 DPS. I disagree with this because Summoners and Rogues still have vastly superior utility. I feel that things should work this way: Sorceror + Predators on top, toe-to-toe with each other. A different subclass can win different fights based on combat situations. All 4 T1 DPS classes should be "comfortably" ahead of all 4 T2 subclasses in most situations. A T2 should only come into T1 territory where the situation favors it. (For example, a T2 AE DPS coming close to a T1 single-target DPS on a fight that is AE-heavy).I have no current opinion of Warlocks because I have not raided beside one for a long time. I also have no opinion of Beastlords since my guild does not have a serious one yet. I feel like Wizard does not currently have a niche. We work hard to put out the numbers that we can, and are still beaten by others. We're just outdated because we haven't had any individual attention in a long time. Please discuss my points. I am anxious to see what other Wizards have to say about this.

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Old 01-25-2012, 12:53 AM   #72
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NG23985_01 wrote:

Hello, this is my first time posting on the official forums in ages. I feel compelled to post here because I am passionate about the Wizard class, and I too am feeling the strain on the class lately. This will be a long post and I hope somebody appreciates the time that I've put into writing this even if they don't agree with my points. I will be pointing out some imbalances, but there will be no calls for nerfs in this post. I am committed to fairness; every class should have a place. Lately Wizad just seems to not really have a niche. I put a lot of effort into playing my class, but I do not feel that my combat performance reflects the effort that I put into it. Some of these problems are not restricted to Wizard alone.Problem 1 - Melee characters have more opportunities for growth. Mages gain increased DPS from these stats: Potency, Crit Bonus, Ability Modifier, Intelligence, Disruption, Cast Speed, Reuse Speed, and Doublecast. Scouts benefit from the same stats (Swap Intelligence for Agility, and Weapon Skills for Disruption, and then subtract Doublecast), but they also benefit from: Haste, Multi-Attack, DPS, Flurry, Weapon Damage Bonus, Autoattack Multiplier, Strikethrough, Accuracy, Melee AE, and their weapon's ratio! Total stats for Mage DPS growth = 8. Total stats for Scout DPS growth = 17.

Itemization issue more than anything.

Problem 2 - Melee characters have more buffs to benefit from than Mages. Part of this is related to having fewer stats for growth, but there is a separate issue too. This issue is quality and quantity of available buffs. Just about everybody has a buff to increase melee dps, but mage buffs are comparatively scarce. Also Scout stats are plentiful in the form of buffs. The stats that Mages gain DPS from are much weaker in power. There are numerous melee-triggered damage proc buffs, but only a few spell-triggered damage procs. There are also melee buffs for which there is no caster parallel - Combat Mastery and Stampede, anyone?

Time Warp > Combat Mastery. I will give you Stampede, but ET/Curse are pretty good on ae fights. Ice Lash is baller but since melees benefit from this too, meh.

Problem 3 - Wizard benefits less from buffs than from other classes. This is further separate from the previous problems, because in addition to dealing with poorer quality and quantity buffs compared to Scouts, Wizards gain less from the few Mage buffs that do exist than other Mages gain. Summoners get double the amount of damage from damage procs such as Peace of Mind, Frigid Gift, and Perfection of the Maestro. This is because their pet also triggers the damage procs. I often have 12-18k dps from these kind of procs, but my guild's Conjuror has 20-30k. I love getting the Upbeat Tempo buff from Troubadors. It does a lot to improve my DPS, but as good as it is for me, it is vastly superior for other classes. Wizards have few DoTs compared to Necromancer or Warlock, and both of these classes get a TON more DPS from UT than I do. Upbeat Tempo is generally quite inferior to Time Compression, because +2-3 DoT ticks every time is more reliable than +5% chance to doublecast. Lastly I will highlight Time Warp. Both of Wizard's largest spells are unable to doublecast. On a single-target fight, I consider an extra 400-600k damage out of a TW to be a very good one. A Conjuror is capable of doublecasting his hardest hitting spell, Elemental Blast. A doubled EB is an extra 1-1.2 million damage, plus they can get another spell and maybe pet spell in too. A Conjuror probably gets between 1-1.5 million extra damage out of a Time Warp in total.

It's a weak point, but you also get the most benefit from Bolster and misc. INT buffs. Also: If you're only getting an extra 400-600k out of time warp, maybe you should cast more than ice comet. Ice Comet, Fusion, and...idk..Ball of Fire equal up to about 1.4 million. Add a thunderclap for another 150k if you have time. And that's on a single target. Of course on an aoe fight you could doublecast Fusion, Blast of Dev, and ...Firestorm? For an extra like...3 million damage @ 3 targets, + another 400k per target up to 6.

Problem 4 - Wizard burst DPS is a thing of the past. It takes me a good 15-20 seconds to "spin up" and then my DPS hits a plateau. We've got 2 burst damage spells and both are pretty rotten compared to burst damage attacks of other classes including Warlock, Assassin, Ranger and Conjuror. Fiery Blast is our first burst damage spell. FB is extremely sensitive to failure and not very rewarding in most situations. It takes 10 seconds to charge up, and then strikes our target for 35% (?) of the damage dealt during that window. It does not doublecast, it does not crit, it does not benefit from damage from procs, and it is not benefit from spell doublecasts during the window. On an AE heavy fight, I can sometimes push FB up to 800k-1200k, but that is very difficult and rare. Single-target requires me having all of my heavy hitters up at once, and due to varying recast times this is a rare occurrence. I consider a hit for 450k on single-target to be a good one, but most of the time it is 250k-350k. If I get interrupted, stunned, stifled, resisted, or otherwise fail a spell during the charge up time, it will dramatically reduce the damage. It will also fail completely if I die or if my target dies during the window. I would like to see FB converted into a plain vanilla single-target nuke. As it is, it is hypersensitive to failure and does not inflict a lot of damage in most situations. Keeping its current cast/recast time, I think a hit for 550k-750k would be appropriate and it would be better in all situations except massive AE. Our other burst spell is Manaburn, and MB has not scaled up very well into the current game. My MB hits for 950k-1200k most of the time, about the same as a Conjuror's Elemental Blast. The problem is that MB is an inferior spell in every way. Conjuror's EB is super fast, short reuse, hits hard, and is fully able to benefit from stat modifiers. Wizard's MB is slow to cast, has a longer reuse, cannot crit, cannot doublecast, drains all my power, and its damage drops off dramatically if my power is not 100% full to begin with. MB is very difficult to use on fights with power drains, and there are plenty of those. MB also has a bit of a spin up time. In addition to its slow cast speed, I have to cast 2 debuffs and 3 temporary buffs to maximize it, and this takes a good bit of extra time. I think a full MB cycle is about 8 seconds, far longer than the 2ish seconds for a Conjuror's Elemental Blast. I see 3 solutions to fixing Manaburn. 1) Keep the spirit of the spell the same, and bring the damage more in line to reflect the EXTREMELY high cost of using Manaburn. I feel that a 5 million damage hit would be appropriate, keeping the spell exactly the same in every other way. 2) Shorten the cast and reuse times to be more in line with Conjuror's EB, and change it to calculate its damage based on MAXIMUM power instead of CURRENT power, and then change it to cost only a little bit of power. This would make it less prone to failure on power drain fights, and better speed, without changing the spirit of the spell. 3) Change the spell completely to something that is fully able to doublecast, crit, etc. I'd personally prefer Option 3 because I just don't think dumping all your power into 1 "big" hit is a very good mechanic to go by.

No.

Problem 5 - Lots of our DPS is conditional. In addition to FB and MB being sensitive to failure as described above, we have some other spells that are unreliable. We have Fusion and Blast of Devastation. Both are frontal cone AEs that are very hard to aim - especially against giant-sized NPCs that are so common these days. Fusion has a narrower cone and shorter range so it is especially hard to aim. Fusion has a 3-target limit, but I almost never see it hit 2 targets, much less all 3. NPCs just don't like to stand close enough together to get hit by Fusion. We've also got a quick nuke called Thunderclap. TC has an AA that gives it a second and third hit, greatly raising its damage potential. The problem is that this AA restricts the additional hits to being short ranged. There are plenty of situations where I cannot be in melee range to use Fusion, BoD, and the advanced Thunderclap, so I lose a lot of DPS. I changed my AAs to buy something other than the Thunderclap enhancing AA. I figured having a little bit of extra DPS all the time is better than having a lot of extra DPS in very rare situations. The minimum solution here is to widen the cone and range of Fusion and remove the range restrictions on the Thunderclap AA. A better solution would be to change Fusion and BoD into targeted AE spells instead. Think like a "Green" AE, except that they can hit on unlinked targets surrounding the primary target. I never understood why Sorcerers got melee ranged spells. What ever happened to being a ranged DPS class?

Wizard DPS is not situational, lol. I stopped reading after the problem title.

Problem 6 - Wizards have the worst aggro management of all DPS classes. I have successfully yanked aggro from my guild's MT a couple of times when I wasn't closely watching my aggro. Sometimes I have to slow down my DPS to avoid getting aggro while others are going full throttle. All Scouts have good aggro control in the form of hate transfers, detaunt procs, detaunt poisons, and positional dropping abilities or passive hate reduction. Summoners split their aggro with their pets. Warlock's mythical effect triggers a hate position drop. Wizard has none of these things. We have a pitiful 4% (9% with AA) hate transfer. We have Arcane Bewilderment like all other mages, and then we've got 2 de-taunt spells that are so weak that they are not worth casting. I'd like to see more passive aggro management for Wizard, such as the Befuddle buff that Rogues enjoy for an example.

Beastlords.

Problem 7 - We are crippled while moving. Situations where moving and repositioning are required are plentiful these days. While moving, I can cast 2 spells - Arcane Bewilderment which is usually already down because I've been using it for hate control, and Thunderclap. While moving I can get around 35-50k damage out of TC. Scouts are not similarly restricted. They can toggle on their ranged autoattack for 100-150k damage or even more. Maybe they can even move in sync with their target and not have to turn off DPS at all! I lose a lot of ground on bosses that require a lot of moving. Being able to cast Ball of Fire while moving would be a good solution.

What bosses require a lot of moving? The only ones I can think of you possibly counting are like, Tert and Finnrdag. Neither helps scouts more than mages. Nothing else requires moving.

Problem 8 - Spell Weapon autoattack is poorly implemented. This is related to Problem 1 but has distinct issues. Fully itemizing for SW stats is essential, as is tossing around some buffs to various classes for these stats. Fixing this would fix Problems 1, 2, and 7. I often see Rangers and Assassins getting 70-90k dps from their autoattack, up to 50% of their parse! I think that amount is absurdly overpowered, but since I'm not calling for nerfs I think getting SW autoattack up a bit is the solution. My SW autoattack does about 400-600 dps currently. I think getting it to a minimum of 10k is important. In addition to being poorly itemized for, and exactly ZERO buffs for SW autoattack existing, there are mechanics problems. SW autoattack triggers melee procs such as Blade Chime, and it deals crushing damage. It should trigger spell procs instead, and deal Magic damage as the default type. We should also be given one of two possible ways to change the damage type. The first way to allow us to change the damage type of our SW autoattack is to give each mage class a couple of self, permanent buffs that change the type. For example, Wizard and Conjuror could each get a self buff that converts SW autoattack to Fire type or a different one for Ice type. The other way to allow us to change damage type involves using the ammo slot. I am NOT talking about consumable ammo here! I am talking about using a "crystal" or some such in the ammo slot. A Fire Crystal could make our SW autoattack hit for fire type damage. Also, since Arrows and Throwing Ammo also boost the damage a little bit, Crystals could do the same. Make 3 tiers of crystals - crafted, heroic, raid. having a crystal equipped could add a little damage in addition to changing the outgoing damage type.

I will agree with this to an extent. It should be matched with your melee auto attack, not considerably worse as it is now, but it shouldn't be considerably better either. As a warlock I usually got 4-5k from auto attack as well as another 5-6k from venemous runes, and a couple more thousand from various procs (blade chime, vc, stampede)

Problem 9 - Wizard has lackluster temporary buffs. We have Frigid Gift and Surge of Ro, both are damage procs. FG is very good - it is groupwide, hits for 7-14k per hit, lasts 29 seconds, and triggers off melee or spells. Surge of Ro is in dire need of help. SoR is self only, hits for 4-6k per hit, lasts 30 seconds, and triggers off spells only. The worst part of SoR is that its damage trigger is a DoT! Because it is a DoT, it is inevitable that we end up cutting off the last 1-2 ticks of the DoT, reducing the damage considerably. I think converting it to a nuke instead of DoT is essential, and since it is self only it should do more damage than FG. I think 15-30k per proc of SoR would be appropriate. Also we need an additional temporary buff! Warlocks get Focused Casting, which lets them have 100% doublecast for a short time. Wizard has no parallel to this at all. I think it would be useful, and not step on the toes of Warlocks to give us a self buff that gives us a few seconds of guaranteed maximum damage on spell hits. A self-only, spell-version of Combat Mastery, if you would.

Frigid Gift is amazing. Also, stop it. Wizards don't need another temp buff. Especially not one with tons of doublecast or a spell version of CM.

In summary, we just haven't had any attention in a very long time. Summoners got shared pet stats because it was a necessary balancing change. Warlocks had their Plaguebringer nuke converted into a massive DoT when Velious came out. Wizards on the other hand just haven't had much attention. In the last 2 years, Wizards have received inferior abilities than other DPS classes and this is really starting to show. Summoners gained extremely powerful things such as Elemental Blast (Conj), Accelerated Decay (Necro), and Soulburn (both). Their pets also gained a couple of new spells through AAs. Assassins got Shadowstep and Exploit Weakness, and both parse very high. During this time Wizards have gained Fiery Blast, Blast of Devastation, and Sanguine Sacrifice. All of these are comparatively weak when viewed beside abilities gained by other DPS classes in the same time. I will admit that BoD parses pretty well though, but only on fights with at least 3 mobs close together. 

Sanguine Sacrifice is one of the best buffs in game. What are you talking about. It's probably better than Soulburn. Wizards haven't gotten buffed because they're finally rather balanced.

Ultimately I think the original DPS tiers should be honored. Sorceror + Predator T1, Summoner + Rogue T2. I see lots of people say there is no place for T2 dps, and summoners and rogues should have T1 DPS. I disagree with this because Summoners and Rogues still have vastly superior utility. I feel that things should work this way: Sorceror + Predators on top, toe-to-toe with each other. A different subclass can win different fights based on combat situations. All 4 T1 DPS classes should be "comfortably" ahead of all 4 T2 subclasses in most situations. A T2 should only come into T1 territory where the situation favors it. (For example, a T2 AE DPS coming close to a T1 single-target DPS on a fight that is AE-heavy).

No. Summoners don't have any more utility than a Wizard. Summoners should be T1 dps. Swash debuffs aren't anywhere near as great as they once were, and should also be T1 dps, at least on aoe content. Brigands are pretty amazing with debuffs and I can agree with them securing a T1.5 spot, and allowing bards/chanters/tanks to take up T2.

I have no current opinion of Warlocks because I have not raided beside one for a long time. I also have no opinion of Beastlords since my guild does not have a serious one yet. I feel like Wizard does not currently have a niche. We work hard to put out the numbers that we can, and are still beaten by others. We're just outdated because we haven't had any individual attention in a long time. Please discuss my points. I am anxious to see what other Wizards have to say about this.

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Old 01-25-2012, 06:26 AM   #73
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As ususal the forums end up with but this class x and that class x and oh but my guilds slack wizard is awesome as our rwdps is 1 million.

Seriously guys read whats been posted instead of flaming

ISSUE : Wizard isnt king anymore I dont care on AE but i do care on Single Target

Reasons : Our so called big hitters now fall way short of the mark and need some boosting , you got scouts hitting 5 multiattacks and ae auto and flurrys 

Summoners - Right .. Elemental Blast 3 Million + Damage - Can be Timewarped no power cost no detrimental cost and on a lower reuse than Manaburn.  Lifeburn .. sigh makes me cry 

Reforging - again scouts get to reforge MA .. mages get abilty mod .. wow 

FOTM Class - Beastord yes it will likely be nurfed but certainly no time soon as its the whole selling point of this "xpac"

Im not getting into the usual my class is better than your class rubbish and comparing each version of each spell ie Warlocks V Wizards.  Thats not what this is about they arnt the same classes and have different spells.

and buffrat mate as for 

Sanguine Sacrifice is one of the best buffs in game. What are you talking about. It's probably better than Soulburn. Wizards haven't gotten buffed because they're finally rather balanced.

really because looking at your own parses theres no balance there mate welcome to a new DPS Tier

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Old 01-25-2012, 10:22 AM   #74
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Buffrat, even with 100% cast speed and 56% recovery speed, it isn't possible to get off Fusion, Ice Comet, AND Ball of Fire on a Time Warp. Worse, all these spells have different recast times and are very seldom all up at the same time. I don't have a Mystic in my group, and thus I don't get Bolster. I don't understand what you mean when you say Wizards get more out of INT buffs than others, unless you mean from Sanguine Sacrifice. Thunderclap does far less than 150k damage too by the way. If you're going to stop reading my points after the title, you don't have much of a right to say that I am wrong. Based on your hostile tone, I think you must play a non-Wizard DPS class and you enjoy seeing us in our current crippled state, and this discredits you. As for my point you didn't read, I said conditional, you said situational. These words do not mean the same thing. I also said I had no opinion of Beastlords or Warlocks since my guild does not have a serious one of either subclass. What bosses require a lot of moving? King Tormax, Tert, and some others in Drunder. (Don't have names off the top of my head.) The movement problem is also noticable on trash mobs. I can do almost nothing while I'm getting up in melee range to cast Fusion and BoD while scouts are free to used ranged autoattack and move up close. Next, my melee autoattack does less than my SW autoattack. My ranged wand is a little bit better than my primary slot though so this probably accounts for the difference. Melee gives me 300-500 dps, SW 400-600, and since SW doesn't require micromanagement like melee autoattack, I make no effort to use melee autoattack. Why do you say Wizards dont need another temporary buff? Looking at Sorcerer classes, and excluding the temporary buffs that we share with each other, Wizard has Frigid Gift and Surge of Ro. Warlock has Focused Casting, Curse of Darkness, Gift of Bertoxxulous and Netherrealm! (Wizard = 2, Warlock = 4) Sanguine Sacrifice isn't the godly spell that you make it out to be. Sure, it is useful, but I've calculated that it only improves my outgoing damage by about 14% for its duration. This is nice, but it is well suited for sustained DPS, not burst DPS. Lastly, I knew somebody would try to make the argument that Summoners deserve T1 dps because they "don't have utility" so I have prepared a counterargument to prove that Summoners do have a lot more utility than true T1 dps classes.Utility from Wizards:

  1. Converge (small hate xfer)
  2. Frigid Gift (damage proc)
  3. Mana Intromission (small power transfer)
  4. Evac (seldom used)
  5. Portal (NEVER used)
  6. Ro's Blade (3-5k melee dps proc for 3 people)
  7. Int + str buff

Utility from Warlocks:

  1. Shroud of Bertoxxulous (damage shield)
  2. Grasp of Bertoxxulous (melee dps proc)
  3. Curse of Darkness (damage proc)
  4. BOon of the Damned (small hate transfer)
  5. Dark Pact (casting skills buff)
  6. Mana Trickle (small power transfer)

Utility from Assassins:

  1.  Apply Poison (melee damage proc)
  2. Evacuate
  3. hate transfer
  4. Crit Chance/Crit Bonus debuff

Utility from Rangers:

  1. Crit Chance/Crit Bonus debuff
  2. Evacuate
  3. Focus Aim

Utility from Conjurors:

  1. Runes of Geomancy (stoneskin proc)
  2. Elemental Toxicity (dmg proc)
  3. Fire from Within (RAIDWIDE buff from pet: hp, potency, armor effectiveness)
  4. Cabalistic Conversion (constant power conservation)
  5. Call of the Hero
  6. Fire Seed
  7. Flame Shield
  8. Geotic Rune
  9. power Shards
  10. Reanimate (helps guarantee their DPS by preventing pet death)
  11. Sacrifice
  12. Stoneskins (group, on-demand stoneskins, very nice)
  13. self decreased resist rate buff

Utility from Necromancers:

  1. Elemental Toxicity
  2. Cabalistic Conversion
  3. power Hearts
  4. Revive
  5. minor group heals (via consumption and pet spells)
  6. STR/STA/INT/AGI group buff
  7. Noxious Barrier (helps guarantee dps by preventing pet death)
  8. Reanimate (helps guarantee dps by preventing pet death)
  9. Beyond the Grave (RAIDWIDE pet buff: potency, power, weapon accuracy, resistability)

I could have missed some things, but I think I have successfully proven my point that Summoners have vastly more utility (in quality and quantity) than true T1 dps classes. It cannot be legitimately said that Summoners have no more utility than T1 dps classes. If summoners are to have T1 dps, then Wizard, Warlock, Assassin and Ranger need to be given one raidwide buff each. I'd rather just have the original DPS tiers be honored though.Also DarkMirraax made a good point that I missed about reforging. Scouts can get tons of extra multiattack by tossing unwanted DPS, but I've not yet found a good use for reforging as a Wizard. I can get rid of extra cast/reuse speed for Ability Modifier I suppose, but this benefit is really tiny.

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Old 01-25-2012, 04:33 PM   #75
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Honestly, in my opinion, conjurors only have a little more utility then Wizards.  See my reply below to the poster that did a detailed breakdown, though a one-sided one, comparing utility of classes mentioned in this thread.

Utility from Conjurors:

  1. Runes of Geomancy (stoneskin proc) -  Agree
  2. Elemental Toxicity (dmg proc) - Agree 
  3. Fire from Within (RAIDWIDE buff from pet: hp, potency, armor effectiveness) - Do not agree completely, Pet does not stay alive enough. 
  4. Cabalistic Conversion (constant power conservation) - Do NOT AGREE.  How is this utility? -  Its Conj only. 
  5. Call of the Hero - Do NOT AGREE.  I have never been asked to use this spell. 
  6. Fire Seed - Do NOT AGREE.  This is group dependent.  I have never been in the MTs group nor has any conj I know so this is worthless in raids. 
  7. Flame Shield - Do NOT AGREE.  The damage this spell does is minimal, sure I can apply it to the MT but very minimal damage.  Not worth a dime. 
  8. Geotic Rune - Agree
  9. power Shards - Agree 
  10. Reanimate (helps guarantee their DPS by preventing pet death) - DO NOT AGREE.  Pet dies way too much for this to be much use. 
  11. Sacrifice - Do NOT AGREE.  Laughable benifit even in the gear I have. 
  12. Stoneskins (group, on-demand stoneskins, very nice) - Agree but limited... 
  13. self decreased resist rate buff - Do NOT AGREE.  Again, self only.

In my lowly experience:

My sources for raid invites include:  my guild (where I am an alternate "fill-in" because they have too many DPS raiders), pickup raids, and some friends that still play and have large guild connections.  I mentioned that I have been on 12 raids before, since getting to 90 and obtaining full Rygorr and adorning properly.  I am only counting X4 EM raids.  Since I stated that I have been on 3 more X4 EM raids.  I frequently group and do X2s.

I am, simply and honestly admitted, NOT a top end guild raider like many, if not all, of you.  However I am the unspoken majority. 

The best DPS I can pull when on raids if not buffed is around 45 - 55k, this is not competitive, even in the low end gear I have. 

I am routinely passed up, sat out, whatever you want to call it from raids if there are Wizards or Warlocks avlaiable,  EVEN if they are in the same level of gear. 

Sure you can say all of the following:  "your not a good player", "you made your main class choice so just live with it", "there are too many DPS players in general".

The only thing you would be right in saying is that I made this class choice for my main.  I wish I had not sometimes but there are no other classes I like playing.  I tried a bunch.

The facts:

1.  Conjurors should be T1 DPS because they do not provide sufficent utility for raid leaders to take them along if "better" dps options are there.  No one cares about utility and honestly they don't have much that matters.

2.  BL's are currently hurting Wizard desireability on raids and thus also destroying Conjuror desireablity.

3.  I am pretty sure I would raid a hell of a lot more if I could hold my own against BL/Scouts, Wizards, and Warlocks.  In similar gear obviously.

4.  Most of these games end up where melee DPS just kills all other on parses...so why do we bother even complaining?

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Old 01-25-2012, 07:17 PM   #76
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NG23985_01 wrote:

Buffrat, even with 100% cast speed and 56% recovery speed, it isn't possible to get off Fusion, Ice Comet, AND Ball of Fire on a Time Warp.

It is possible, but you have to get your precast timing down right (you just need the spell to land during the time warp window to get the double - with the exception of Iceshield, which works the other way around, and is often a good spell to squeeze in at the end). Also, if you are getting Time Warp you probably should have TC, so recovery speed will be closer to 100 (and over 100 with a bard).

NG23985_01 wrote:

I don't have a Mystic in my group, and thus I don't get Bolster.

Bolster is cross-raid castable.

NG23985_01 wrote:

I don't understand what you mean when you say Wizards get more out of INT buffs than others, unless you mean from Sanguine Sacrifice.

Sanguine Sacrifice, Manaburn, mythical ability mod proc is the benefit you get from increased INT over your regular spell array. Those 3 are what makes wizards one of the prime candidates for Bolster.

NG23985_01 wrote:

What bosses require a lot of moving? King Tormax, Tert, and some others in Drunder. (Don't have names off the top of my head.) The movement problem is also noticable on trash mobs. I can do almost nothing while I'm getting up in melee range to cast Fusion and BoD while scouts are free to used ranged autoattack and move up close.

I guess there are 2 points here. Yes, it is true that significant movement requirements will hinder our dps, but that is true of any class whose dps is based upon continual combat (as perhaps opposed to others with lengthier cool-downs). And yes, we ideally need to be within 10m to maximize our outgoing with a noticeable enough drop if we are forced to range, but that is true of other mage dps classes too (but perhaps to a lesser extent). I always stay in as much as possible, and that includes trash - but I can see how others with lesser gear might have issues with those much over-used Whirling Attack / Elemental something AEs.

NG23985_01 wrote:

Next, my melee autoattack does less than my SW autoattack. My ranged wand is a little bit better than my primary slot though so this probably accounts for the difference. Melee gives me 300-500 dps, SW 400-600, and since SW doesn't require micromanagement like melee autoattack, I make no effort to use melee autoattack.

You really shouldn't give your ranged auto dps much thought. The best way to look at it, is just a way to better equalize overall proc rates between you and your melee counterparts. Your spell auto counts as a combat hit, so, as just one example, will proc the melee portion of your Frigid Gift (assuming you have that enhancement, which you ought to). Now factor in all the additional procs you are getting from all sources. Also, the only argument for using your primary as a mage, is if you are a melee-speced chanter (at the cost of the often better-stated ranged wands because of how ranged auto with a wand is toggled on).

NG23985_01 wrote:

Why do you say Wizards dont need another temporary buff? Looking at Sorcerer classes, and excluding the temporary buffs that we share with each other, Wizard has Frigid Gift and Surge of Ro. Warlock has Focused Casting, Curse of Darkness, Gift of Bertoxxulous and Netherrealm! (Wizard = 2, Warlock = 4) Sanguine Sacrifice isn't the godly spell that you make it out to be. Sure, it is useful, but I've calculated that it only improves my outgoing damage by about 14% for its duration. This is nice, but it is well suited for sustained DPS, not burst DPS

Wizards don't need to be buffed directly. If anything, any perceived discrepencies could be addressed where there are indirect disparities (e.g. relative gains from TC vs UT). Anyone wanting the class to be directly boosted is just wasting their energy (~ before you start adding in buffs, wizards are actually one of the stronger classes).

NG23985_01 wrote:

I knew somebody would try to make the argument that Summoners deserve T1 dps because they "don't have utility" so I have prepared a counterargument to prove that Summoners do have a lot more utility than true T1 dps classes.

~Long list of mostly meaningless / largely negligible things~

I could have missed some things, but I think I have successfully proven my point that Summoners have vastly more utility (in quality and quantity) than true T1 dps classes. It cannot be legitimately said that Summoners have no more utility than T1 dps classes. If summoners are to have T1 dps, then Wizard, Warlock, Assassin and Ranger need to be given one raidwide buff each. I'd rather just have the original DPS tiers be honored though.

Summoners are high T1 dps atm due to a "feature" (easily competing with the rest of our dps, especially on AE encounters). Expect them to be slightly behind sorcerers/predators if that ever gets addressed. Summoner dps is highly reliant on group damage procs, and extra entities procing those procs for them, so group make-up in that regard is important for them. Summoners ought to be less reliant on procs for their dps, but this isn't really the place to discuss this.

Anyway ...

At the end of the day though, it is hard to make a call on this, which is why I have stayed out of this until now. We each play in our small circles of people, and, really, such small, individual data samples just aren't conclusive. There is just no way to easily quantify things such as:

  • Relative skill (Are any differences skewed either way (or hidden) by relative skill difference of players?).
  • Encounter design (We excel on some encounters and don't do so well on others).
  • Your guild's raid strategies and mob/your positioning (Can have a huge impact).
  • As well as some of the more obvious things, which don't need listing.
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Old 01-25-2012, 07:37 PM   #77
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NG23985_01 wrote:

UTILITY THAT MATTERS:

Utility from Wizards:

  1. Converge (small hate xfer)
  2. Frigid Gift (damage proc)
  3. Mana Intromission (small power transfer)
  4. Evac (seldom used)
  5. Portal (NEVER used)
  6. Ro's Blade (3-5k melee dps proc for 3 people)
  7. Int + str buff

Utility from Warlocks:

  1. Shroud of Bertoxxulous (damage shield)
  2. Grasp of Bertoxxulous (melee dps proc)
  3. Curse of Darkness (damage proc)
  4. BOon of the Damned (small hate transfer)
  5. Dark Pact (casting skills buff)
  6. Mana Trickle (small power transfer)
  7. Prop, 4% trigger chance

Utility from Assassins:

  1.  Apply Poison (melee damage proc)
  2. Evacuate
  3. hate transfer
  4. Crit Chance/Crit Bonus debuff
  5. HP Debuffs

Utility from Rangers:

  1. Crit Chance/Crit Bonus debuff
  2. Evacuate
  3. Focus Aim

Utility from Conjurors:

  1. Runes of Geomancy (stoneskin proc)
  2. Elemental Toxicity (dmg proc)
  3. Fire from Within (RAIDWIDE buff from pet: hp, potency, armor effectiveness)
  4. Cabalistic Conversion (constant power conservation)
  5. Call of the Hero
  6. Fire Seed - pretty sure Fire Seed and Wiz/Warlock melee buffs still don't stack, and wiz/war are better.
  7. Flame Shield
  8. Geotic Rune
  9. power Shards - useless most of the time
  10. Reanimate (helps guarantee their DPS by preventing pet death) (same as stoneskins)
  11. Sacrifice
  12. Stoneskins (group, on-demand stoneskins, very nice)
  13. self decreased resist rate buff

Utility from Necromancers:

  1. Elemental Toxicity
  2. Cabalistic Conversion
  3. power Hearts - useless most of the time
  4. Revive - if you get the chance to use it
  5. minor group heals (via consumption and pet spells)
  6. STR/STA/INT/AGI group buff
  7. Noxious Barrier (helps guarantee dps by preventing pet death)
  8. Reanimate (helps guarantee dps by preventing pet death) (same as nox barrier)
  9. Beyond the Grave (RAIDWIDE pet buff: potency, power, weapon accuracy, resistability)

I could have missed some things, but I think I have successfully proven my point that Summoners have vastly more utility (in quality and quantity) than true T1 dps classes. It cannot be legitimately said that Summoners have no more utility than T1 dps classes. If summoners are to have T1 dps, then Wizard, Warlock, Assassin and Ranger need to be given one raidwide buff each. I'd rather just have the original DPS tiers be honored though.

Fixed.

After years of complaining about balance, we finally have the 8 dps classes relatively balanced (not counting beastlord, because we all know they're a little OP.) and all wizards do is complain more.

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Old 01-25-2012, 10:38 PM   #78
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

After years of complaining about balance, we finally have the 8 dps classes relatively balanced (not counting beastlord, because we all know they're a little OP.) and all wizards do is complain more.

Perhaps a lot of people just don't agree that 9 classes competing for the top of the parse is balanced.  It's certainly not interesting or very well thought out (in my opinion). 

If the intent of the developers is to make 4 mage classes (and 5 scout classes) do basically the same amount of dps except that 2 classes have a pet and 2 don't...well I'm just not interested.  Of course the developers never say what they intend so my guess is we'll never know.

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Old 01-26-2012, 03:14 AM   #79
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Because they do the same dps doesn't mean they get there the same way.
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Old 01-26-2012, 10:40 AM   #80
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While it's relatively minor, I'd like to point out that the Conjuror "Group Stoneskins on demand" buff is largely irrelevant in raid content.  The stoneskins ONLY work on hits that are less than 50% of max health.  Anything over 50% of max health cuts right through.

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Old 01-27-2012, 07:37 PM   #81
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Wizards used to be ahead of the pack. They need to try harder now to stay at the head of the pack. I can understand why some are crying. 

Summoner's have a Sol Ro pet that they can put in Dimensional Storage. This is the only thing that's wrong w/ summoner DPS. EB is only up every other TW, and the threat it generates is massive so it's not without risks and it's not up often enough to cry about. Toxicity is nice on AE trash fights but is nothing compared to Frigid Gift. The conjies best stoneskins are for the pet / himself, the groupwide stoneskin's is almost useless in raids b/c its only 50% damage hits or lower. 

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Old 01-27-2012, 07:40 PM   #82
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[email protected] wrote:

And I think that I should be able to parse side by side with predators and beastlords.    Currently with your mechanics at the endgame, that is not possible!

I would expect the net result of this thread to nerf preds.

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Old 01-27-2012, 07:50 PM   #83
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[email protected] wrote:

Summoner's have a Sol Ro pet that they can put in Dimensional Storage. This is the only thing that's wrong w/ summoner DPS.

Well, that and the pet is now way out of line with other blessings across all deities (as far as their increased output is concerned since pet stat sharing went in). But that applies to anyone using this miracle (including me), and not just summoners (though summoners get better tools to keep the pet alive).

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Old 01-28-2012, 12:21 AM   #84
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Maybe that was covered in the deity revamp we where supposed to get like 6 months ago
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Old 01-28-2012, 02:07 AM   #85
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All they need to do is make it not proc procs, then it would put out about the same dps as Hand of Death (as a scout's Hand of Death, anyway).

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Old 02-27-2012, 08:01 AM   #86
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Currently, beastlords deal an absurd amount of damage compared to other classes. Especially in the easier content (EM raids, Kael HM raids). I believe this can be easily resolved by giving illusionists a pet AOE immune buff in our enchanter tree.

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