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Old 06-21-2011, 04:46 PM   #1
Loldawg
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OMG please for the love of god - stop dropping fighter loot when so many other classes in our raid need basics pieces. 

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Old 06-21-2011, 04:55 PM   #2
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Seems nothing is being done about this despite all the threads complaining about it. Their obvious solution will probably be to either:

A. Make more annoying raid encounters that require >3 fighters.

B. Make the 25th class capable of using fighter loot.

C. Nothing at all.

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Old 06-22-2011, 10:03 AM   #3
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I absolutely guarantee you that the 25th class will use Brawler loot.  There isn't even a doubt in my mind.  In fact, most likely, the 25th class will use Brawler loot, and be the "third" subclass of the Brawler Class.  It will be less tanking and more DPS.

Yes, it will be a Beastlord.

It makes complete sense.  The Brawlers who want to tank choose Bruiser or Monk, the ones that want to DPS betray to Beastlord.

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Old 06-22-2011, 12:18 PM   #4
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fighter drops are already crated except for weapons crate weapons and stop crying about fighter drops.This game still needs to get to the point where at least 4 fighters are needed in every raid.

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Old 06-22-2011, 12:38 PM   #5
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A mostly 50% drop rate on an items used by an archtype that'll be like 10% of the raid was another interesting itemization decision.

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Old 06-22-2011, 02:10 PM   #6
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[email protected] wrote:

fighter drops are already crated except for weapons crate weapons and stop crying about fighter drops.This game still needs to get to the point where at least 4 fighters are needed in every raid.

So says the fighter.

Seriously....They really need to do something about the fighter drops. I think that is alot of the reason my guild has been bleeding members. It is just no fun raiding when most of the loot that night is fighter and goes to alt #991919.

Also, most of the loot you see in loot channels are 99% fighter loot. It is pretty obvious something isn't working as intended.

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Old 06-22-2011, 02:25 PM   #7
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Just fully crate everything and be done with it.

"Armor", "Jewelry", "Weapon", whatever.

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Old 06-22-2011, 02:50 PM   #8
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Well before they would drop fighter stuff that could also be used by scouts and scout stuff that could be used by fighters/priests

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Old 06-22-2011, 06:35 PM   #9
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[email protected] wrote:

OMG please for the love of god - stop dropping fighter loot when so many other classes in our raid need basics pieces. 

We all pay for this game, but we dont get the same ingame reward for our $ spent 

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Old 06-22-2011, 07:05 PM   #10
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I know it's supposedly random - but I swear on many / majority of mobs - fighter drops all the time - and priest / mage sometimes never drops (i.e. mage chest). Are some mobs adjusted to mostly drop a certain archtype - so that a bunch of people are always pushing to do that mob again? Almost seems like it's some wackd system to keep people interested in going back again and again to previously cleared mobs... 

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Old 06-23-2011, 10:18 AM   #11
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Never seen the priest earing/wrist on the 4th boss in HOL x4 we have gotten fighter loot every kill.

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Old 06-23-2011, 11:03 AM   #12
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In my guild our fighter alts are better geared than half the scouts and mages in the group. While it is nice to have our MT and OT nicely geared the drop rates should better reflect the number of people on a raid as below. 2-3 tanks 10% drop 6-8 healers 30% drop 6-8 scouts 30% drop 6-8 mages 30% drop

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Old 06-23-2011, 11:07 AM   #13
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You forgot to mention the many occasions when the mob drops 2 items, 1 being fighter, the second being brawler SMILEY

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Old 06-23-2011, 11:09 AM   #14
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[email protected] wrote:

In my guild our fighter alts are better geared than half the scouts and mages in the group. While it is nice to have our MT and OT nicely geared the drop rates should better reflect the number of people on a raid as below. 2-3 tanks 10% drop 6-8 healers 30% drop 6-8 scouts 30% drop 6-8 mages 30% drop

The problem you run into is that an undergeared tank will slow your progression much more than an undergeared scout or mage will, so you end up having to spend even more time farming for fighter drops while your priest, scout and mage alts get geared up.

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Old 06-23-2011, 11:13 AM   #15
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Dasein wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

In my guild our fighter alts are better geared than half the scouts and mages in the group. While it is nice to have our MT and OT nicely geared the drop rates should better reflect the number of people on a raid as below. 2-3 tanks 10% drop 6-8 healers 30% drop 6-8 scouts 30% drop 6-8 mages 30% drop

The problem you run into is that an undergeared tank will slow your progression much more than an undergeared scout or mage will, so you end up having to spend even more time farming for fighter drops while your priest, scout and mage alts get geared up.

If you're trying to be funny you just failed miserably.

1. First of all think how many tanks a raid uses

2. Second of all think how many scouts / mages / priests a raid uses.

3. Do the math.

4. Come back and tell us what you managed to accomplish after completing steps 1-3.

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Old 06-23-2011, 12:22 PM   #16
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[email protected] wrote:

Dasein wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

In my guild our fighter alts are better geared than half the scouts and mages in the group. While it is nice to have our MT and OT nicely geared the drop rates should better reflect the number of people on a raid as below. 2-3 tanks 10% drop 6-8 healers 30% drop 6-8 scouts 30% drop 6-8 mages 30% drop

The problem you run into is that an undergeared tank will slow your progression much more than an undergeared scout or mage will, so you end up having to spend even more time farming for fighter drops while your priest, scout and mage alts get geared up.

If you're trying to be funny you just failed miserably.

1. First of all think how many tanks a raid uses

2. Second of all think how many scouts / mages / priests a raid uses.

3. Do the math.

4. Come back and tell us what you managed to accomplish after completing steps 1-3.

Now, look at how a raid fight actually works, and the roles each class fills. Look at where there's redundancy and where there are likely points of failure. A MT that lacks the crit-mit to survive or the DPS to hold agro will weaken your raid force far more than an undergeared mage or scout, simply because the tank represents a much more critical point of failure - as you said, there are many more scouts and mages in a raid than tanks, so there is much more redundancy among those classes.

I am not defending the current item drop rates, but rather I am pointing out a flaw in the idea that raid drop rates shoudl reflect the average number of a particular class in a raid as the roles and thus need for gear is not evently distrubted across classes. Rather, gearing up some classes like your MT fighter is more important to the overall success of a raid than gearing up some others, like your 5th or 6th mage or scout.

The longer your MT is unable to get sufficient gear, the longer it takes the raid to progress, and stagnation of that sort kills raid guilds a lot faster than getting unlucky with the gear drops.

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Old 06-23-2011, 12:53 PM   #17
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It's pretty [Removed for Content] simple.  Crate every drop.  Every single one.  It's pretty clear that Boss_Mob_274 drops weapons.  Have him drop two weapon crates, pick the weapon you want.

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Old 06-23-2011, 01:00 PM   #18
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Yes tanks are important. But the current loot drop system is far beyond how it should work. It's not even close.

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Old 06-23-2011, 01:21 PM   #19
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Its a thousand times better then when it was dropping 6-8 different armour pieces. Now you get crates for fighter/scout/healer/mage.

The only issue is brawler weapons need to be crated with plate tank weapons.

Back when the game was weighted to individual classes in raids people still complained when fighters were getting 10-15% of the drop rates.

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Old 06-23-2011, 01:33 PM   #20
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Its obvious one major fix is crating all brawler primary/secondary/range items with other fighter items.  I honestly dont see how they justify a scewed loot table on some mobs because the refuse to crate fighter loot.  It would hurt nothing in the game if they did this other than maybe the time sync factor they figured in based on all the brawler crap dropping no one ever needs. 

Its not hard, in Icy keep you crated multiple class weapons (scout/fighter) (priest/mage) So why not do this now? Your raider base is screaming in thread after thread about this issue and this is one extremely simple fix to help the situation alittle bit.

Crate all fighter primary/secondary/ranged in 2011!!

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Old 06-23-2011, 01:42 PM   #21
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Dasein wrote:

The problem you run into is that an undergeared tank will slow your progression much more than an undergeared scout or mage will, so you end up having to spend even more time farming for fighter drops while your priest, scout and mage alts get geared up.

This has to be a joke.  Ive raided nearly 4 nights a week since this xpack came out.  I am a core raider so I am always there to bid on gear.  The paladin that joined us 2 weeks ago had 0 x4 raid items now has the same amount of x4 Gear I have.  Please dont try and roll out some "Undergeared tank" statment.  Go play a priest and have fun spending 15 or 20x the DKP the tanks spend on there gear while fighting with each other over who gets what because the drops are so limited due to all the fighter loot.  Tanks can roll in and gear up in EM in a few weeks.

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Old 06-23-2011, 02:27 PM   #22
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thegriss wrote:

Dasein wrote:

The problem you run into is that an undergeared tank will slow your progression much more than an undergeared scout or mage will, so you end up having to spend even more time farming for fighter drops while your priest, scout and mage alts get geared up.

This has to be a joke.  Ive raided nearly 4 nights a week since this xpack came out.  I am a core raider so I am always there to bid on gear.  The paladin that joined us 2 weeks ago had 0 x4 raid items now has the same amount of x4 Gear I have.  Please dont try and roll out some "Undergeared tank" statment.  Go play a priest and have fun spending 15 or 20x the DKP the tanks spend on there gear while fighting with each other over who gets what because the drops are so limited due to all the fighter loot.  Tanks can roll in and gear up in EM in a few weeks.

You really cannot see the need to have a well-geared MT for your raid? How well would your guild fare in HM content if your MT was still wearing a mix of EM and PQ armor? It's easy to argue that drop rates should be adjusted now that people have had a chance to gear up, but let's look ahead - if the next expansion uses similar drop rates as you want to implement now, what will be the ramifications for trying to gear up your MT versus other classes for new content?

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Old 06-23-2011, 02:40 PM   #23
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Tank dkp is a joke, and the drop rates prove it. Tanks easily sit at or near the dkp cap in my guild for almost the entire expansion, and essentially spend "pesos" compared to everyone else because they never have to bid each other up on anything because its all way too common.

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Old 06-23-2011, 02:50 PM   #24
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Dasein wrote:

You really cannot see the need to have a well-geared MT for your raid? How well would your guild fare in HM content if your MT was still wearing a mix of EM and PQ armor? It's easy to argue that drop rates should be adjusted now that people have had a chance to gear up, but let's look ahead - if the next expansion uses similar drop rates as you want to implement now, what will be the ramifications for trying to gear up your MT versus other classes for new content?

I agree the MT needs to be well geared but this expansion changed the way everything works with crit mit checks.  It doesnt matter if your MT/OT is rocking a full suit of gear.  having 21-22 people in a raid trying to meet crit mit requirments while suffering to get gear puts everyone in that same boat. 

You cannot even attempt a mob with someone who's crit mit isnt close to sufficent because the will just die constantly healing the mob. There is little to no work around like there has been in the past like MC jewelry for saves or sticking and undergeared person with a shaman for extra wards ect. Now everyone has to be within a similar standard to progress. 

Having loot drop constantly that no one can use hurts more than it maybe taking a few extra raids to get 1 or 2 tanks some gear.

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Old 06-23-2011, 03:08 PM   #25
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Morghus wrote:

Tank dkp is a joke, and the drop rates prove it. Tanks easily sit at or near the dkp cap in my guild for almost the entire expansion, and essentially spend "pesos" compared to everyone else because they never have to bid each other up on anything because its all way too common.

DKP in no way should effect drop rates.

So if you have a problem with your dkp system change your dkp system. DKP is balanced per raid. Tanks have much less people to bid against. Generally they have to have better attendance %then other classes since you cant raid without your tanks. So that menas more dkp. The turnover rate on tanks is lower then other classes. Which means igher dkp.  Often when tanks raid we pass on loot to the tank that needs it since we are able to coordinate between ourselves better with the same 3-4 people.  Hence spending less dkp. For instance offtanks generally pass a big upgrade to the maintank.

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Old 06-23-2011, 03:09 PM   #26
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thegriss wrote:

Dasein wrote:

You really cannot see the need to have a well-geared MT for your raid? How well would your guild fare in HM content if your MT was still wearing a mix of EM and PQ armor? It's easy to argue that drop rates should be adjusted now that people have had a chance to gear up, but let's look ahead - if the next expansion uses similar drop rates as you want to implement now, what will be the ramifications for trying to gear up your MT versus other classes for new content?

I agree the MT needs to be well geared but this expansion changed the way everything works with crit mit checks.  It doesnt matter if your MT/OT is rocking a full suit of gear.  having 21-22 people in a raid trying to meet crit mit requirments while suffering to get gear puts everyone in that same boat. 

You cannot even attempt a mob with someone who's crit mit isnt close to sufficent because the will just die constantly healing the mob. There is little to no work around like there has been in the past like MC jewelry for saves or sticking and undergeared person with a shaman for extra wards ect. Now everyone has to be within a similar standard to progress. 

Having loot drop constantly that no one can use hurts more than it maybe taking a few extra raids to get 1 or 2 tanks some gear.

This expansion requires your maintank to have the most crit mit as possible whereas other classes can get by with significantly less then the maintank. Other classes only need sufficient amount of crit mit the maintank NEEDS to be maxed.

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Old 06-23-2011, 03:38 PM   #27
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Yes main tanks need max crit mit.

But realize - almost 5 months after the expac has been out - and probably 4 months after you've been at max crit mit - many other classes still need basic pieces. The system is broken - and I actually don't think it's even using a RNG on some mobs. There are some pieces that are just not dropping at all... except of course fighter pieces!

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Old 06-23-2011, 03:41 PM   #28
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[email protected] wrote:

This expansion requires your maintank to have the most crit mit as possible whereas other classes can get by with significantly less then the maintank. Other classes only need sufficient amount of crit mit the maintank NEEDS to be maxed.

You are correct but that still doesnt justify the drop rates and the non crated brawler weapons.  12.5% of your raid (3 tanks) has a 25% drop rate on armor and a 20/20% chance on weapon slots.  Other classes  Priest 33.5% mage/scout 27% each.  This is the basic raid format 8 priest, 3 fighter, 13 scouts/mages.

Fighters 12.5% = 25%

mage       27% =25%

priest    33.5% = 25%

scout      27% = 25%

Ya thats balanced.

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Old 06-23-2011, 03:52 PM   #29
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Sorry if this sounds Biassed, because yes I'm a fighter...

 But guys.   Think about how it used to be?   We are getting 2x-3x the loot per mob than we used to get, and we are already getting loot crated.   Remember EOF's system of killing a mob and getting "Necromancer Gloves"... and you have no necromancer in guild?   I mean dude, you kill a easy-mode mob now and you can get 2 wrists and a ring, or 2 crates and a necklace...  even more for HM.  

  What I'm saying  is that the method of gaining loot now is faster than it's ever been.   (Just stinks that the loot being gained is so boring, but that's a whole 'nother thread).  Rememeber that before you complain. It's 4 months in and you have some people that aren't 100% geared yet.   That's not exactly a travesty.  

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Old 06-23-2011, 03:56 PM   #30
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thegriss wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

This expansion requires your maintank to have the most crit mit as possible whereas other classes can get by with significantly less then the maintank. Other classes only need sufficient amount of crit mit the maintank NEEDS to be maxed.

You are correct but that still doesnt justify the drop rates and the non crated brawler weapons.  12.5% of your raid (3 tanks) has a 25% drop rate on armor and a 20/20% chance on weapon slots.  Other classes  Priest 33.5% mage/scout 27% each.  This is the basic raid format 8 priest, 3 fighter, 13 scouts/mages.

Fighters 12.5% = 25%

mage       27% =25%

priest    33.5% = 25%

scout      27% = 25%

Ya thats balanced.

No, it's not balanced, but switching drop rates to reflect these percentage breakdowns will also have engative consequences in that it will take longer for your MT to get geared up sufficiently to progress, forcing you to spend even more time farming. In effect, you are not really solving the problem, just shifting which classes suffer from it the most.

The solution is to go 100% smart loot, or simply crate all drops, so a mob may drop 2 rings or 2 boots, usable by any class. This way, the raid can decide the best way to distribute loot.

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