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Old 12-15-2009, 02:17 PM   #91
Banditman

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Saneos wrote:

Seriously - it's this attitude that is sad.

Why play if you don't want the best gear and to progress through zones?    We the casuals play for what some people call "fun".    I know it's a concept foreign to your breed. 

As a casual I want to see story, I want a challenge,  I want to face danger and I want to be able to have that and still spend time with my family every evening. 

Sadly, that is no longer possible through the successful efforts of you and those like you.   Congrats.     I'm not here for the best gears, I am here for fun.

**Sorry for the double post

Bull dung.

Listen, there has never been a time in EQ2 when the same content was as available to all players as it is right now.

Don't believe it?  I will prove you wrong, guaranteed.

The biggest change that you should know about is extremely old, EoF era old.  Persistent zones.  You've got seven full days to complete some of the longer raid zones, the heroic zones last up to three days.

Don't have time to sit for 2 or 3 hours?  No problem.  Come back and do a little each day.  Since there are so many casual players who share this issue, it's absolutely no problem to get those groups going, right?  Right?

Not only that, gear is ridiculously easy to get.  I'm sure you can find all that information out in other threads.

There has never been a time in EQ2's history where more content was available to more people.  How and if people choose to address that is completely in the hands of the players.  SOE needs to make no adjustments or apologies for the content they make available.

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Old 12-15-2009, 02:52 PM   #92
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Saneos wrote:

Gaige wrote:

Saneos wrote:

Do a /played and post it here.    Enough said.

Quit blaming your inability to be successful at EQ2 on your RL commitments, no one is buying it.

I'm not interested in being successful at EQ2.    I want to play and have fun, yet still be able to experience all the content I'm paying the same price for.    

This sort of statement always confuses me.  You're not paying to experience all the content.  You're paying to have access to all of the content...which you do already have access to. 

Look, just because I paid the same amount for Batman: Arkham Asylum as someone else doesn't mean we both automatically get to see and hear all of the hidden files in the game.  If I put in the time and gain the necessary skills through gameplay, maybe I'll hear the Poison Ivy interviews or gain the Bane trophy.  I don't get to automatically experience all of that content by virtue of my $49.99.  Neither do you.  However, we both have access to all of the content - we just have to go out and experience it. 

You have access to the exact same content as I do.  I have access to the exact same content as Gaige does.  There are no artificial restrictions in the game that prevent me from accessing that content just because I'm male or because I make X dollars per year or because I drive a Y car instead of a Z car.  There's no limitation on my ability to access that content due to what I do for a living, where I live, and whether or not I prefer Coke or Pepsi, cats or dogs.  My ability to access that content - YOUR ability to access that content is already there and paid for.  You want to access a raid zone - go out and access it.  You can walk into Tomb of the Mad Crusader right now. 

The problem isn't one of "access".  The problem is one of entitlement.  You feel entitled to content by virtue of your payment, a payment you see as equal to everyone else.  What you're not seeing is that we all paid for equal access - not equal experiences.  Your mileage may vary, but you have access to the same roads. 

Your monthly payment provides you the same access as mine.  I just happen to do different things with my time online than you do.  That's my choice.  That's your choice.  The system isn't elitist.  The system is egalitarian.  You want it to be entitling.  

P.S. - We all play to have fun.  The problem is that you want to judge others by your personal definition of fun, when in actuality we each have a different way of defining fun.    

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Old 12-15-2009, 04:17 PM   #93
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You have access to the exact same content as I do.  I have access to the exact same content as Gaige does.  There are no artificial restrictions in the game that prevent me from accessing that content just because I'm male or because I make X dollars per year or because I drive a Y car instead of a Z car.  There's no limitation on my ability to access that content due to what I do for a living, where I live, and whether or not I prefer Coke or Pepsi, cats or dogs.  My ability to access that content - YOUR ability to access that content is already there and paid for.  You want to access a raid zone - go out and access it.  You can walk into Tomb of the Mad Crusader right now. 

The problem isn't one of "access".  The problem is one of entitlement.  You feel entitled to content by virtue of your payment, a payment you see as equal to everyone else.  What you're not seeing is that we all paid for equal access - not equal experiences.  Your mileage may vary, but you have access to the same roads. 

Your monthly payment provides you the same access as mine.  I just happen to do different things with my time online than you do.  That's my choice.  That's your choice.  The system isn't elitist.  The system is egalitarian.  You want it to be entitling.  

Your whole premise is false.   The system IS elitist.    It discriminates against those players that don't have boatloads of free time to put into the game.    

The gear you have makes a HUGE difference as to whether you can accomplish something as opposed to actual skill.    I don't want to be handed gear on a platter, I don't feel entitled to anything except being able to experience most of the game without devoting a major portion of my life to the grind(for gear, exp - you name it).     I want to earn that gear by proving my skill while still enjoying the game in the short play periods I am able to dedicate.   I know I have the wrong game for this, but I played EQ2 up to Kunark and really enjoyed my time there, I just can't spend as much of it anymore.

That road we both have the same access to - you have 4 or 5 hours to drive along it to your destination, and I have 1 or 2 if I am lucky.     What is a good way to consolidate the needs of casuals(a rewarding play experience in hour increments or so) with the needs of hardcores(access to rare gear and the most content)?

I don't know the answer.   I do know that the "other" mmo does a fairly good job of it by scaling gear.    At the high end raiding gear allows those that obtain it to trivialize the Heroic content.     Gear from Heroic content allows anyone to obtain gear nearly as strong as the raiding gear but at a much slower pace.   Namely, the elitists get access to the good stuff first as it should be, and the only access to the best stuff.      Both groups however have their needs met, and both groups are able to experience all of the content without huge time sinks.      A casual cannot walk into a raid instance and succeed, but they can in a half hour to an hour at a time over time - obtain the gear to be able to walk in and succeed.

It's the time sink that frustrates me.    I love this game, I really do - but I can't devote the kind of time I would need in order to experience it all.     That discriminates against me.    I don't see how you can call that entitlement.    I don't want them to hand me anything, but give me the option to experience it - even in crap gear for sub-par rewards if successful.    Maybe a Regular and Heroic version of instances?       I don't know what the answer is.    I just hold out hope that maybe one can be found.

Don't have time to sit for 2 or 3 hours?  No problem.  Come back and do a little each day.  Since there are so many casual players who share this issue, it's absolutely no problem to get those groups going, right?  Right?

Unfortunately not.    The system has already driven away players by the boatload instead of attracting new players.

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Old 12-15-2009, 04:45 PM   #94
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Saneos wrote:

You have access to the exact same content as I do.  I have access to the exact same content as Gaige does.  There are no artificial restrictions in the game that prevent me from accessing that content just because I'm male or because I make X dollars per year or because I drive a Y car instead of a Z car.  There's no limitation on my ability to access that content due to what I do for a living, where I live, and whether or not I prefer Coke or Pepsi, cats or dogs.  My ability to access that content - YOUR ability to access that content is already there and paid for.  You want to access a raid zone - go out and access it.  You can walk into Tomb of the Mad Crusader right now. 

The problem isn't one of "access".  The problem is one of entitlement.  You feel entitled to content by virtue of your payment, a payment you see as equal to everyone else.  What you're not seeing is that we all paid for equal access - not equal experiences.  Your mileage may vary, but you have access to the same roads. 

Your monthly payment provides you the same access as mine.  I just happen to do different things with my time online than you do.  That's my choice.  That's your choice.  The system isn't elitist.  The system is egalitarian.  You want it to be entitling.  

Your whole premise is false.   The system IS elitist.    It discriminates against those players that don't have boatloads of free time to put into the game.    

The gear you have makes a HUGE difference as to whether you can accomplish something as opposed to actual skill.    I don't want to be handed gear on a platter, I don't feel entitled to anything except being able to experience most of the game without devoting a major portion of my life to the grind(for gear, exp - you name it).     I want to earn that gear by proving my skill while still enjoying the game in the short play periods I am able to dedicate.   I know I have the wrong game for this, but I played EQ2 up to Kunark and really enjoyed my time there, I just can't spend as much of it anymore.

That road we both have the same access to - you have 4 or 5 hours to drive along it to your destination, and I have 1 or 2 if I am lucky.     What is a good way to consolidate the needs of casuals(a rewarding play experience in hour increments or so) with the needs of hardcores(access to rare gear and the most content)?

I don't know the answer.   I do know that the "other" mmo does a fairly good job of it by scaling gear.    At the high end raiding gear allows those that obtain it to trivialize the Heroic content.     Gear from Heroic content allows anyone to obtain gear nearly as strong as the raiding gear but at a much slower pace.   Namely, the elitists get access to the good stuff first as it should be, and the only access to the best stuff.      Both groups however have their needs met, and both groups are able to experience all of the content without huge time sinks.      A casual cannot walk into a raid instance and succeed, but they can in a half hour to an hour at a time over time - obtain the gear to be able to walk in and succeed.

It's the time sink that frustrates me.    I love this game, I really do - but I can't devote the kind of time I would need in order to experience it all.     That discriminates against me.    I don't see how you can call that entitlement.    I don't want them to hand me anything, but give me the option to experience it - even in crap gear for sub-par rewards if successful.    Maybe a Regular and Heroic version of instances?       I don't know what the answer is.    I just hold out hope that maybe one can be found.

Don't have time to sit for 2 or 3 hours?  No problem.  Come back and do a little each day.  Since there are so many casual players who share this issue, it's absolutely no problem to get those groups going, right?  Right?

Unfortunately not.    The system has already driven away players by the boatload instead of attracting new players.

sorry man but your discribing life in genral, guess what man, im discriminated against by the goverment becuase i dont have the money to become a lawyer go to a good collage get rich and run for the senate, or am i discriminated against becuase i have  to work every day and dont have the time to be an olimpic sprinter , and now that i think of it im discriminated against becuase even though i work longer hours and harder then alot of people, my job doesent pay top notch AND I DESERVE A BIGGER HOUSE!

everything you have ever done was a choice. same with me same with everyone else. guess what i slacked in school pulled a 2.8 and graduated im going to a community collage with no scholor ships  and working full time  to keep the bills up and i dont have time to raid, well im not blameing sony for not letting me raid, im blaeing life and the coices i have made in it, period that is all and thats all their will ever be becuase that is life

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Old 12-15-2009, 04:56 PM   #95
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Saneos wrote:

Your whole premise is false.   The system IS elitist.    It discriminates against those players that don't have boatloads of free time to put into the game. 

No it doesn't.  It gives you the option to break that up into manageable chunks using persistent zones.  You can accomplish, experience exactly the same things as someone with larger blocks of time, albiet at a slower rate.

The gear you have makes a HUGE difference as to whether you can accomplish something as opposed to actual skill.

Untrue.  While there is some "skill" to the game, it's more accurately defined as "knowledge" than "skill".  Knowing what to cast, when to cast, where to place the mob, what NOT to do . . . all these are knowledge, not skill.  Gear makes up for none of the knowledge.  The best gear in the game will do you absolutely zero good without the knowledge to back it up.  That knowledge is gained through experience, and that experience rewards the gear.

That road we both have the same access to - you have 4 or 5 hours to drive along it to your destination, and I have 1 or 2 if I am lucky.     What is a good way to consolidate the needs of casuals(a rewarding play experience in hour increments or so) with the needs of hardcores(access to rare gear and the most content)?

Why should your personal limitations encumber my experience?  You have access to the same content, and it can even be experienced at the rate you prefer with persistent instances.  I can't make you use the tools provided.

I don't know the answer.   I do know that the "other" mmo does a fairly good job of it by scaling gear.   

Then I'd recommend you play that game if you feel it does a better job than EQ2.  I'm not saying "don't let the door hit you", I'm saying vote with your dollars.

At the high end raiding gear allows those that obtain it to trivialize the Heroic content.     Gear from Heroic content allows anyone to obtain gear nearly as strong as the raiding gear but at a much slower pace.   Namely, the elitists get access to the good stuff first as it should be, and the only access to the best stuff.      Both groups however have their needs met, and both groups are able to experience all of the content without huge time sinks.      A casual cannot walk into a raid instance and succeed, but they can in a half hour to an hour at a time over time - obtain the gear to be able to walk in and succeed.

I cannot stress enough just how FALSE this statement is!  It's patently not even close to true!  A casual player can easily get his T2 armor, which is more than enough to kill content such as Senior Loyalist, Captain Ikalus, Thet, Strange Stalker and Xythus/Aranstra.  That's five raid mobs right there easily accessible in very casual gear.  You might be able to kill the first couple mobs in Miragul's as well, and the trash mobs in there just hemmorage Exquisite chests at times.  It may be the perception of the casual players that this content is not accessible, but the reality is in fact quite different.

It's the time sink that frustrates me.    I love this game, I really do - but I can't devote the kind of time I would need in order to experience it all.     That discriminates against me.    I don't see how you can call that entitlement.    I don't want them to hand me anything, but give me the option to experience it - even in crap gear for sub-par rewards if successful.    Maybe a Regular and Heroic version of instances?       I don't know what the answer is.    I just hold out hope that maybe one can be found.

No, the game isn't discriminating against you at all.  Your priorities are.  I am a fairly talented soccer player.  If I chose, I could easily play for one of the semi-pro teams around here.  I have the talent, the equipment.  Are they then discriminating against me because I choose not to spend the time getting myself in condition to play?  I don't think so.  Playing soccer is no longer one of my priorities, I choose not to invest the time because I have other things I would rather do.  That is not the fault of the clubs, and I certainly don't expect them to let me play simply because I happen to show up every now and then.

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Old 12-15-2009, 05:20 PM   #96
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Saneos wrote:

 Your whole premise is false.   The system IS elitist.    It discriminates against those players that don't have boatloads of free time to put into the game.    

AT level 80, there are two dozen dungeons available.  Not one of them requires more than an hour for skilled players in decent (not amazing, but decent) gear.  With one to two hours to play, you could grab a group of players and hit any dungeon you wanted to or felt up to and possibly clear two or three.  In addition, you can run the solo shard quest in about 20 minutes (and gear is NOT a requirement for this quest at all).

Saneos wrote:

That road we both have the same access to - you have 4 or 5 hours to drive along it to your destination, and I have 1 or 2 if I am lucky.     What is a good way to consolidate the needs of casuals(a rewarding play experience in hour increments or so) with the needs of hardcores(access to rare gear and the most content)?

I possibly have less time to devote than you do many weeks.

I worked every single day (every.single.day) from June through October, averaging 77-82 hours per week.  Last night, I got up at 1:30 AM for an hour long conference call.  Even now, I average between 55-60 hours a week for my job.  Yet, I still manage to find time to take my wife out a few nights a week AND to lead a 60+ member guild which raids four nights each week.  By the way, I typically only have two to three hours to spend on Everquest II at a time. 

In short, don't make assumptions about the average online time of others.  I think you'd be very surprised at how little time the game actually requires.  It's not the time you have, but what you do with the time you have that separates average players from great players. 

Of course, even when I do have those 4-5 hours to spend, I spend the time hitting chunks of content that only takes 20-60 minutes to get through.  The only content that even takes longer than a couple of hours to complete would be raid content...and that content is all persistant anyway, so I can stop a raid on Friday and pick up where we left off on Saturday or Sunday.  Of course, the same sort of thing applies to heroic content...

Saneos wrote:

 A casual cannot walk into a raid instance and succeed, but they can in a half hour to an hour at a time over time - obtain the gear to be able to walk in and succeed. 

It takes 20 minutes a day to complete the solo shard quest (1 shard).  It takes 30 minutes to complete Deep Forge (2-3 shards).  It takes 30 minutes to complete Obelisk of Ahkzul (1-3 shards).  I just outlined a consistent way to bring in a MINIMUM of 4 void shards each and every day for just 80 minutes (or less) of playtime.   

Honestly, the options already exist there for you to make better use of your 1-2 hours of gameplay.  You don't have to wait for rare gear to drop - you can plan out which piece of gear you want first.  You don't even need Tier 2 shard armor to start raiding in TSO.  You barely need T1 to get started. 

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Old 12-15-2009, 07:54 PM   #97
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Saneos wrote:

Rijacki wrote:

Saneos wrote:

Seriously?   Whoever said that Casual players don't want a challenge is just spreading a stereotype.     I am a casual player, meaning I have a family and RL commitments that I cannot always be on the computer for 2 to 3 hours straight to go through some of the content.    

I am also a skilled player who LOVES a challenge.  

The key is finding the right balance between the time required for encounters and the challenge.    It IS possible to tell a story, create a challenging encounter, and make it SHORT.    I love this game and would gladly come back to it for good if the designers would just make it less time intensive.    You raiders don't get rewarded for skill inasmuch as you get rewarded for living your life in the game.    You wanted EQ1 with an EQ2 skin, you got it.   

You complain about someone spreading a stereotype while spreading your own.

I work a full time job that is occassionally 50 hours a week. I have other RL commitments as well. I don't "live my life in the game". I do, however, raid 5 days a week and play some outside of that as well because THIS is my hobby and what I choose for entertainment (I watch very little TV or movies, spending more time in game than with either of those).

I don't call myself hardcore or casual. I jsut call myself a player of EQ2.

Do a /played and post it here.    Enough said.

I traded the time I used to spend watching TV and DvDs, enough said. 

Besides, with /played (even all my characters added up) you would only see that I have played since launch, not any reflection on my current time in game. I have spent as little as 2-3 hours a week because of life and, when I was unemployed at the time of EQ2's launch, a whole lot more. 

Actually my boyfriend who isn't in a raid guild but is in a self-proclaimed casual RP guild spends more time in game than I do. For each hour I'm in game he spends at least 2 in game. He watches even less TV than I do and sleeps less than I do, too. 

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Old 12-16-2009, 05:27 AM   #98
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Kendricke wrote:

Saneos wrote:

Gaige wrote:

Saneos wrote:

Do a /played and post it here.    Enough said.

Quit blaming your inability to be successful at EQ2 on your RL commitments, no one is buying it.

I'm not interested in being successful at EQ2.    I want to play and have fun, yet still be able to experience all the content I'm paying the same price for.    

This sort of statement always confuses me.  You're not paying to experience all the content.  You're paying to have access to all of the content...which you do already have access to. 

Look, just because I paid the same amount for Batman: Arkham Asylum as someone else doesn't mean we both automatically get to see and hear all of the hidden files in the game.  If I put in the time and gain the necessary skills through gameplay, maybe I'll hear the Poison Ivy interviews or gain the Bane trophy.  I don't get to automatically experience all of that content by virtue of my $49.99.  Neither do you.  However, we both have access to all of the content - we just have to go out and experience it. 

You have access to the exact same content as I do.  I have access to the exact same content as Gaige does.  There are no artificial restrictions in the game that prevent me from accessing that content just because I'm male or because I make X dollars per year or because I drive a Y car instead of a Z car.  There's no limitation on my ability to access that content due to what I do for a living, where I live, and whether or not I prefer Coke or Pepsi, cats or dogs.  My ability to access that content - YOUR ability to access that content is already there and paid for.  You want to access a raid zone - go out and access it.  You can walk into Tomb of the Mad Crusader right now. 

The problem isn't one of "access".  The problem is one of entitlement.  You feel entitled to content by virtue of your payment, a payment you see as equal to everyone else.  What you're not seeing is that we all paid for equal access - not equal experiences.  Your mileage may vary, but you have access to the same roads. 

Your monthly payment provides you the same access as mine.  I just happen to do different things with my time online than you do.  That's my choice.  That's your choice.  The system isn't elitist.  The system is egalitarian.  You want it to be entitling.  

P.S. - We all play to have fun.  The problem is that you want to judge others by your personal definition of fun, when in actuality we each have a different way of defining fun.

even my super casual playstyle agrees with this.  My monthly payment allows me to play.  What I experience in that time is totally up to me as all content is available.

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Old 12-16-2009, 05:30 AM   #99
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Saneos wrote:

Rijacki wrote:

Saneos wrote:

Seriously?   Whoever said that Casual players don't want a challenge is just spreading a stereotype.     I am a casual player, meaning I have a family and RL commitments that I cannot always be on the computer for 2 to 3 hours straight to go through some of the content.    

I am also a skilled player who LOVES a challenge.  

The key is finding the right balance between the time required for encounters and the challenge.    It IS possible to tell a story, create a challenging encounter, and make it SHORT.    I love this game and would gladly come back to it for good if the designers would just make it less time intensive.    You raiders don't get rewarded for skill inasmuch as you get rewarded for living your life in the game.    You wanted EQ1 with an EQ2 skin, you got it.   

You complain about someone spreading a stereotype while spreading your own.

I work a full time job that is occassionally 50 hours a week. I have other RL commitments as well. I don't "live my life in the game". I do, however, raid 5 days a week and play some outside of that as well because THIS is my hobby and what I choose for entertainment (I watch very little TV or movies, spending more time in game than with either of those).

I don't call myself hardcore or casual. I jsut call myself a player of EQ2.

Do a /played and post it here.    Enough said.

 /played doesn't mean anything actually.  I bet my played time is 3x that of the average raider.  In fact my time spent harvesting is probably more than most raiders.  lol

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Old 12-16-2009, 07:12 AM   #100
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Saneos wrote:

The gear you have makes a HUGE difference as to whether you can accomplish something as opposed to actual skill.    I don't want to be handed gear on a platter, I don't feel entitled to anything except being able to experience most of the game without devoting a major portion of my life to the grind(for gear, exp - you name it).     I want to earn that gear by proving my skill while still enjoying the game in the short play periods I am able to dedicate.   I know I have the wrong game for this, but I played EQ2 up to Kunark and really enjoyed my time there, I just can't spend as much of it anymore.

That road we both have the same access to - you have 4 or 5 hours to drive along it to your destination, and I have 1 or 2 if I am lucky.     What is a good way to consolidate the needs of casuals(a rewarding play experience in hour increments or so) with the needs of hardcores(access to rare gear and the most content)?

I hear these sorts of arguments a lot, they boil down to "Years ago I used to be able to raid 4-5 hours a night, 5 nights a week, but now I don't have the time, can you change the game so that all the things I used to enjoy are now possible in 1-2 hours a night and screw the people a few years younger then me who were in the same position I original was and who are currently enjoying raiding 4-5 hours a night".

I'm not sure if you are asking for the above?  Or do you not have enough challenging content you can do that takes 1-2 hours?

Personally I don't want to be on a raid schedule myself so my aims change to a heroic route, TSO offers a good route to take heroically all the way to Guk, that's an achievement and I believe its going to be possible just about in T2 and a legendary, either way I'll have fun finding out.

Gear does make a huge difference, getting the gear does require skill, coordination, and numbers of people, its the last one that sometimes is the problem so making grouping up easier should be the solution, any way of handing good gear out on a platter just fuels gear elitism, e.g. no mythical and T3?  You can't run this easy instance.

Saneos wrote:

I don't know the answer.   I do know that the "other" mmo does a fairly good job of it by scaling gear.    At the high end raiding gear allows those that obtain it to trivialize the Heroic content.     Gear from Heroic content allows anyone to obtain gear nearly as strong as the raiding gear but at a much slower pace.   Namely, the elitists get access to the good stuff first as it should be, and the only access to the best stuff.      Both groups however have their needs met, and both groups are able to experience all of the content without huge time sinks.      A casual cannot walk into a raid instance and succeed, but they can in a half hour to an hour at a time over time - obtain the gear to be able to walk in and succeed.

Ha!  I've experienced that other MMO and even recently since I got dragged back there due to friends.  Now if EQ2 did what they did with gear then I think we'd see a lot of people moaning on the forums.

Basically they have a set of extremely easy dungeons to run, you out gear them with the first tier of raid/heroic gear (overlap) that can be purchased partly for tokens.

However mid way through the expansion they allowed these same easy dungeons to drop the token for the previously top end raid gear, and then they did the same again later on.  For me I didn't like it, it reset the gear part way through an expansion trivialising the raid content our casual guild was working on and destroying the feeling of progress.

Secondly it was a grind, unless you were in a hardcore guild that cleared and ran the previous raid instance repeatedly you were forced into running these trivialised dungeons over and over again to get tokens to buy gear that will now be required by all players and the next instance where you start all over again.  The last raid we were making good progress in, but the gear reset landed and it was no longer a challenge that meant anything., but that is what the designers of that game aim for, they just want everyone to be able to experience everything which means that everything has to be dumbed down to suit the worst player and because of that nothing really means much to me.

In their previous expansion I never reached the end game, but I enjoyed trying to a lot, now its just a theme park.  Unless you raid everything in that other game is just easy mode because of all the raid gear handed out for free, that's why I'm here and I do see quite a few new EQ2 people who are looking for a challenge too.

Flooding the game with high end gear just trivialises all the previous content and gear elitism thrives, instead I must prefer the path EQ2 has laid out in front of me, I can get a full set of T1 very easily for ~40 shards, T2 involves a lot of work but is doable and will part of the non-raid progression through the storyline.

Saneos wrote:

Don't have time to sit for 2 or 3 hours?  No problem.  Come back and do a little each day.  Since there are so many casual players who share this issue, it's absolutely no problem to get those groups going, right?  Right?

Unfortunately not.    The system has already driven away players by the boatload instead of attracting new players.

That other MMO has actually added in raid instance extensions, something I think isn't a bad idea myself.

As for the losing players comment, I'm not seeing it on my server, I've not seen any data elsewhere that shows EQ2 in a nose dive either.

While their data is inaccurate the trends are probably broadly right, AoC and WAR in that case have plummeted below EQ2 with one of them looking terminal for next year if accurate, Lotro has climbed up above (they actually sell that game actively outside of the US, although how many players there have for life accounts or are in China I wonder), and that other game seems to be showing signs of slowing down, if I could I'd put money on a fall there even without the Chinese fiasco they've had.

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