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Old 12-08-2009, 02:25 AM   #61
bks6721

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 I just find it slightly amusing to see people debate the quality of loot vs the difficulty of encounter while at the same time defend the concept of selling loot rights in another thread.  I mean, if I can't get raid gear in Deep Forge, I certainly shouldn't be able to buy it in level chat while harvesting in EL.   I don't see how it can go both ways.

Maybe more people would run the harder heroic content if the option of letting others clear the zone and bidding on the gear in level chat didn't exist.

Seriously, why lock yourself out from a zone when the loot is sold every night in level chat at affordable prices? Path of least resistance is to buy WoE gear, not run the zone as intended.

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Old 12-08-2009, 02:38 AM   #62
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[email protected] wrote:

 I just find it slightly amusing to see people debate the quality of loot vs the difficulty of encounter while at the same time defend the concept of selling loot rights in another thread.  I mean, if I can't get raid gear in Deep Forge, I certainly shouldn't be able to buy it in level chat while harvesting in EL.   I don't see how it can go both ways.

At least when gear is sold someone is killing the mob at the intended difficulty.  You can't buy Munzok loot from a guild that can't kill Munzok, for example.

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Old 12-08-2009, 05:17 AM   #63
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In my opinion, sale of loot-rights is merely a consequence of the ubiquity of the no-trade tag. There is literally nothing to buy on the broker for many players, so of course they are doing what they can to accomodate the demand for raid gear. If SOE wouldn't stick no-trade on anything worth wearing, players wouldn't feel the need to buy loot rights.

Of course, then you have the debate about whether somebody deserves to own an item that drops off a MOB they cannot personally kill, but that is a can of worms I don't really feel like opening in this thread.

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Old 12-08-2009, 10:25 AM   #64
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[email protected] wrote:

 My point was that not everyone runs zones over and over to get gear. 

...and his point was that Ward of Elements was and is extremely popular.  Just because I know people who don't have their driver's license at 35 doesn't mean driving is suddenly unpopular.

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Old 12-08-2009, 11:36 AM   #65
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[email protected] wrote:

I have NONE of the gear you mention.  My point was that not everyone runs zones over and over to get gear.  My best geared character is in all T2, T4 bracers and shard jewelry.   My guild does not raid at all.  Many guilds are similar.

If you don't run zones over and over for gear then why are you playing a game that the main goal in it is to make your character better and progress through zones?

I would say that the guilds that do not raid AT ALL are in the minortity.

BTW your guild has 2 people in it....1 if you dual box.....just sayin.

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Old 12-08-2009, 12:32 PM   #66
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One thing caught my eye was the term or the phase, "shallow heroic progression", with all due respect, i would like to see people, who do not raid, clear PoF or Outerhold with  minimal problems. That is not to say you cannot clear it, it can be done easily but would require your A-game.

Regarding the difficulty of heroic zones, in my humble opinion the zones scale well with your own progression, be it your level or gear, try doing the guk zones with mastercrafted gear for example and you will immediately see how difficult "trash" can be.

I always emphasise on the rule, Player ability >>player gear, yes they both complement each other but you can have a player fully packed in class set and if he/she does not know what to do with it, you are not going anywhere.

Coming back to the crux of the matter, some of the loot from heroic instances is on par if not better than  some raid loot i have seen. Some of the PoF loot is pretty exceptional and i think rightly so considering the difficulty of the boss you need to kill in order to acquire it. To say that heroic encounter progression is not parallel with raiding is kind of a perosnal preference, i.e. depends on how you play your character. I still use some stuff from heroic zones in raids, not because i have nothing else better but because they are in fact very good and help my character out. For some things, i had to run group instances for God knows how many times and i hate to admit it, this ploy ties the raider to heroic content for some time.

If you do not raid then the current heroic content is more than enough to keep you busy. Im sure there are many players , not taking a shot at anyone here, who have not yet completed all of the TSO heroic zones. It would take even longer to complete i suspect if you run with guild groups who are all equally geared in t2 etc.

Anyway, that was my opinion, i do not expect anybody to agree with me but felt the need to say something.

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Old 12-08-2009, 04:44 PM   #67
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Posts like this provide hours of entertaining reading for me at work...

First and foremost, since I don't think its been beaten enough to make sure that people get it, the ONLY true way to have progression with Solo content, Heroic content, and Epic content is to have:

solo loot < group loot < raid loot.

Otherwise you have the EXACT opposite of progression. I have played at all 3 levels of this game at different points. Ive even raided different amounts at different times. Each has its percs. This is a classic case of people wanting to have the best stuff w/ the least work. To reiterate what Bigron has already said a few times, if you add an easier way for people to get the best gear.. they will use it. This would be an isnult to all the people who want a challenge and like being rewarded for that success.

Oh, and of any expansion, I think TSO offers the MOST variety of difficulty at the heroic level of ANY expansion... by a solid margin too. You have several easier instances, some medium ones, and a couple that are fairly difficult. TBH, i love the Varsoon fight. I think they did a solid job of coming up with a heroic encounter that required a decent amount of time, work, and thought.

To make my point very clear, Im not opposed to heroic progression.. but to have it be in ANY way comparable to end game raid content loot wise is just insane. Thats not to say there can't be the occasion item thats on par with some of the intro level raid gear.. but to have end game items out of heroic content is silly.

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Old 12-08-2009, 06:55 PM   #68
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[email protected] wrote:

 I just find it slightly amusing to see people debate the quality of loot vs the difficulty of encounter while at the same time defend the concept of selling loot rights in another thread.  I mean, if I can't get raid gear in Deep Forge, I certainly shouldn't be able to buy it in level chat while harvesting in EL.   I don't see how it can go both ways.

The argument is really that you're not the one getting the reward of beating the encounter. The person who is selling the item is, and you just happen to be exchanging something for it. It's not really inconsistent, and all tradable loot follows the same pattern. If  you followed your argument to its logical conclusion, harvesting materials should be no trade also, and all crafted gear should be no-trade, since you're the one doing the work for it and should be the only one allowed to use it. Understand?

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Old 12-08-2009, 07:13 PM   #69
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Posts like this provide hours of entertaining reading for me at work...

First and foremost, since I don't think its been beaten enough to make sure that people get it, the ONLY true way to have progression with Solo content, Heroic content, and Epic content is to have:

solo loot < group loot < raid loot.

Otherwise you have the EXACT opposite of progression. I have played at all 3 levels of this game at different points. Ive even raided different amounts at different times. Each has its percs. This is a classic case of people wanting to have the best stuff w/ the least work. To reiterate what Bigron has already said a few times, if you add an easier way for people to get the best gear.. they will use it. This would be an isnult to all the people who want a challenge and like being rewarded for that success.

Oh, and of any expansion, I think TSO offers the MOST variety of difficulty at the heroic level of ANY expansion... by a solid margin too. You have several easier instances, some medium ones, and a couple that are fairly difficult. TBH, i love the Varsoon fight. I think they did a solid job of coming up with a heroic encounter that required a decent amount of time, work, and thought.

To make my point very clear, Im not opposed to heroic progression.. but to have it be in ANY way comparable to end game raid content loot wise is just insane. Thats not to say there can't be the occasion item thats on par with some of the intro level raid gear.. but to have end game items out of heroic content is silly.

I think you are still looking at my proposal through the filter of current content expectations. As I have said, the success of my proposal hinges on new heroic content that is equal in difficulty to epic content. Because of this, the heroic progression path would not be quantitatively easier than the epic path--it would offer similar challenges with similar rewards. Now, if you believe that it is impossible to create heroic content as challenging as epic content, that would be a valid argument, though I ask that you explain your opinion so that I could better understand your reasoning.

Also, as mentioned in a previous post, I personally do not see heroic -> epic as being a realistic progression path. Raiders tend to jump directly from the previous tier's raid content into the next tier's raid content, and only dip their toes into heroic zones for very corner-case situations (like Najena's ring). For more discussion on this topic, you may want to check EQ2Flames, their topic, "Item Ratings Scrapped! And other news" discusses this point starting around page 7 (I won't link the site, because it does use strong language). Anyway, for that reason, I believe that it would be better to design heroic and epic progression as parallel paths, rather than progressing from one to the other.

I believe strongly in rewarding people for completing very difficult and challenging content. What I do not agree with is limiting access to such content based on play style. Especially when there are significant numbers of players who are unable to meaningfully participate in one play style due to circumstances outside of their control, such as out-of-game responsibilities that restrict their ability to attend scheduled raids. Getting 24 people together regularly for a significant period of time takes some major time commitments, and with the economic downturn, more and more folks find their available free time diminishing. Not to mention the fact that, as mentioned above, casual play is a rapidly growing market in gaming--a play style that conflicts dramatically with such strict attendance requirements.

Please note, I am not saying that casuals can't raid. I am primarily casual these days, and I love to raid as often as I can. However, I have a job with a constantly-changing schedule that often eats-up my evenings, so my opportunity to join raids is fairly slim. I know I am not alone in my plight, and that there are other players who would be very happy to have a method of progression that allowed them to test and hone their abilities without the requirement of building one's life around scheduled raiding.

At it's core, my argument is that raiding should not remain the only means to reach end-game levels of progression. Heroic content, if designed properly, could prove just as challenging as raiding and should therefore provide similar rewards. In this way, players who cannot adhere to scheduled raiding would have the opportunity to progress to the end-game via a means that fits with their lifestyle. Such progression would be just as taxing, but the opportunity to attempt it would be more available, due to less scheduling commitment. Also, raiders who would normally be left with little to do until their lockouts expire could work alongside the more casual players to earn rewards in heroic content that are actually valuable to them. I see it as a win-win situation.

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Old 12-08-2009, 08:27 PM   #70
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

[email protected] DLere wrote:

Posts like this provide hours of entertaining reading for me at work...

First and foremost, since I don't think its been beaten enough to make sure that people get it, the ONLY true way to have progression with Solo content, Heroic content, and Epic content is to have:

solo loot < group loot < raid loot.

Otherwise you have the EXACT opposite of progression. I have played at all 3 levels of this game at different points. Ive even raided different amounts at different times. Each has its percs. This is a classic case of people wanting to have the best stuff w/ the least work. To reiterate what Bigron has already said a few times, if you add an easier way for people to get the best gear.. they will use it. This would be an isnult to all the people who want a challenge and like being rewarded for that success.

Oh, and of any expansion, I think TSO offers the MOST variety of difficulty at the heroic level of ANY expansion... by a solid margin too. You have several easier instances, some medium ones, and a couple that are fairly difficult. TBH, i love the Varsoon fight. I think they did a solid job of coming up with a heroic encounter that required a decent amount of time, work, and thought.

To make my point very clear, Im not opposed to heroic progression.. but to have it be in ANY way comparable to end game raid content loot wise is just insane. Thats not to say there can't be the occasion item thats on par with some of the intro level raid gear.. but to have end game items out of heroic content is silly.

I think you are still looking at my proposal through the filter of current content expectations. As I have said, the success of my proposal hinges on new heroic content that is equal in difficulty to epic content. Because of this, the heroic progression path would not be quantitatively easier than the epic path--it would offer similar challenges with similar rewards. Now, if you believe that it is impossible to create heroic content as challenging as epic content, that would be a valid argument, though I ask that you explain your opinion so that I could better understand your reasoning.

Also, as mentioned in a previous post, I personally do not see heroic -> epic as being a realistic progression path. Raiders tend to jump directly from the previous tier's raid content into the next tier's raid content, and only dip their toes into heroic zones for very corner-case situations (like Najena's ring). For more discussion on this topic, you may want to check EQ2Flames, their topic, "Item Ratings Scrapped! And other news" discusses this point starting around page 7 (I won't link the site, because it does use strong language). Anyway, for that reason, I believe that it would be better to design heroic and epic progression as parallel paths, rather than progressing from one to the other.

I believe strongly in rewarding people for completing very difficult and challenging content. What I do not agree with is limiting access to such content based on play style. Especially when there are significant numbers of players who are unable to meaningfully participate in one play style due to circumstances outside of their control, such as out-of-game responsibilities that restrict their ability to attend scheduled raids. Getting 24 people together regularly for a significant period of time takes some major time commitments, and with the economic downturn, more and more folks find their available free time diminishing. Not to mention the fact that, as mentioned above, casual play is a rapidly growing market in gaming--a play style that conflicts dramatically with such strict attendance requirements.

Please note, I am not saying that casuals can't raid. I am primarily casual these days, and I love to raid as often as I can. However, I have a job with a constantly-changing schedule that often eats-up my evenings, so my opportunity to join raids is fairly slim. I know I am not alone in my plight, and that there are other players who would be very happy to have a method of progression that allowed them to test and hone their abilities without the requirement of building one's life around scheduled raiding.

At it's core, my argument is that raiding should not remain the only means to reach end-game levels of progression. Heroic content, if designed properly, could prove just as challenging as raiding and should therefore provide similar rewards. In this way, players who cannot adhere to scheduled raiding would have the opportunity to progress to the end-game via a means that fits with their lifestyle. Such progression would be just as taxing, but the opportunity to attempt it would be more available, due to less scheduling commitment. Also, raiders who would normally be left with little to do until their lockouts expire could work alongside the more casual players to earn rewards in heroic content that are actually valuable to them. I see it as a win-win situation.

Making heroic content more like raids would only serve to make it more difficult for people with limited play time or irregular schedules to participate.

Raid guilds are able to complete the content they can because of the level of teamwork and institutional capability they develop. Successful raid guilds will have clear leaders, and players will have specific roles to play within the raid force, both in general terms (specific heals, buffs, debuffs, etc.) and encounter-specific roles like off-tanking adds, interrupting mobs and so on. Further, raid guilds will spend quite a bit of time analyzing combat logs and parses to figure out exactly what is going on in a fight and how to counter certain effects. This teamwork comes from playing together on a  regular basis, and spending time out of game reviewing and discussing tactics.

If heroic fights start to resemble raid encounters, then in order to succede, players will need to adopt the same sorts of play styles as raiders do now, and that means the people who cannot or do not want to raid will subsequently be shut out of heroic content. The same scheduling commitments required for raids would be applied to heroic content, as you would need to have reliable particpation so your group can learn the encounter. Further, in a 6 person group, each person is likely to have a much bigger role, so replacing one person is more of a loss, thus you may even see tighter scheduling and participation requirements for heroic content than you do for raid content.

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Old 12-08-2009, 08:44 PM   #71
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A few reasons why Heroic content cannot compare to raid content, and would never be able to:

1) If it did, most heroic level players would *never* have a chance to complete those zones. Have you ever tried to get 6 people from channels that are a) competent, b) know the game mechanics well enough to figure things out on the fly, c) follow directions well enough to kill it. I know I have... and I know it usually ends badly lol.

2) Part of the challenge in raiding is *needing* to have 24 people to kill something, and having all 24 people on the same page and coordinated together so that all 24 can help acomplish the kill. This means no mistakes from 24 people in what can be 20 minute encounters... especially when you're learning something new. That cannot be emulated in a group. 6 people is a lot easier to coordinate. Take Trakanon back in RoK. I said many times the mob is easier w/ fewer people. Fewer people = fewer fail conditions. It also = less dps.

3) Time commitment. Most people who like heroic content do not want to spend 6 hours in a zone figuring it out before they can finish it. So even if your idea was implemented, youd still see more or less the same numbers of people w/ "end game loot" The difference is, it would kill raiding. Why coordinate 24 people when you can coordinate 6.

4) The progression you want is already in game. It just doesn't compare to end game raid loot. Why? Because you don't *need* end game raid loot for heroic content. You need the loot out of the heroic zones for heroic content. And the loot out of the raid zones for raid content.

Makes sense to me.

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Old 12-09-2009, 01:04 AM   #72
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Dasein wrote:

Making heroic content more like raids would only serve to make it more difficult for people with limited play time or irregular schedules to participate.

Raid guilds are able to complete the content they can because of the level of teamwork and institutional capability they develop. Successful raid guilds will have clear leaders, and players will have specific roles to play within the raid force, both in general terms (specific heals, buffs, debuffs, etc.) and encounter-specific roles like off-tanking adds, interrupting mobs and so on. Further, raid guilds will spend quite a bit of time analyzing combat logs and parses to figure out exactly what is going on in a fight and how to counter certain effects. This teamwork comes from playing together on a  regular basis, and spending time out of game reviewing and discussing tactics.

If heroic fights start to resemble raid encounters, then in order to succede, players will need to adopt the same sorts of play styles as raiders do now, and that means the people who cannot or do not want to raid will subsequently be shut out of heroic content. The same scheduling commitments required for raids would be applied to heroic content, as you would need to have reliable particpation so your group can learn the encounter. Further, in a 6 person group, each person is likely to have a much bigger role, so replacing one person is more of a loss, thus you may even see tighter scheduling and participation requirements for heroic content than you do for raid content.

None of the habits you describe are exclusive to raiding. They are effective habits of players who care about improving their characters and increasing their level of success in the game. There is absolutely nothing that prevents somebody from running ACT, reading forums, and analyzing data just because they don't have available time in the evenings to commit to raiding. For example, most of my free time is at night, between 11pm EST until 6am EST, because I work evenings and sleep during morning and early afternoon. It's rare that I see anybody raiding at those times on my server, but that doesn't stop me from wanting to be the best I can be. However, it is discouraging to know that the effort I put into improving my character will not be adequately tested unless I find some new profession that allows me to play during prime raid times. Heroic content simply isn't on the same level.

As for heroic content requiring raid-like scheduling, I think you exaggerate a bit. I have a regular group of friends who I play with often, and who share similar play times as myself. However, these friends number 5-8 or so, depending on the night, which is plenty to run instances, but far from sufficient for any kind of raiding. My friends and I would love to work hard to complete truly challenging content, we just don't have enough people in our clique to fill-out a full raid with any regularity. I think this is a situation faced by many players.

EDIT: Allow me to clarify something, here. The distinction I am trying to make between raiders and non-raiders is not that they have different skill levels or even different total play time, but rather that they have different scheduling freedom. Many "hardcore" raiders only log-on to raid, maybe 3-4 hours a day, 3-5 times per week. Some people play a lot, but their play times are unpredictable, and therefore they cannot commit to regularly scheduled raiding. I suppose there should be a term like, "hardcore non-raider" to describe this group, but as no such term currently exists in the common vernacular, I am simply calling them "non-raiders" and making their total playtime inconsequential.

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Old 12-09-2009, 01:21 AM   #73
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

A few reasons why Heroic content cannot compare to raid content, and would never be able to:

1) If it did, most heroic level players would *never* have a chance to complete those zones. Have you ever tried to get 6 people from channels that are a) competent, b) know the game mechanics well enough to figure things out on the fly, c) follow directions well enough to kill it. I know I have... and I know it usually ends badly lol.

2) Part of the challenge in raiding is *needing* to have 24 people to kill something, and having all 24 people on the same page and coordinated together so that all 24 can help acomplish the kill. This means no mistakes from 24 people in what can be 20 minute encounters... especially when you're learning something new. That cannot be emulated in a group. 6 people is a lot easier to coordinate. Take Trakanon back in RoK. I said many times the mob is easier w/ fewer people. Fewer people = fewer fail conditions. It also = less dps.

3) Time commitment. Most people who like heroic content do not want to spend 6 hours in a zone figuring it out before they can finish it. So even if your idea was implemented, youd still see more or less the same numbers of people w/ "end game loot" The difference is, it would kill raiding. Why coordinate 24 people when you can coordinate 6.

4) The progression you want is already in game. It just doesn't compare to end game raid loot. Why? Because you don't *need* end game raid loot for heroic content. You need the loot out of the heroic zones for heroic content. And the loot out of the raid zones for raid content.

Makes sense to me.

I shall address your points in order.

1) There is no point in designing "end-game" content if you expect everybody to finish it. Just like it is with raiding, some people will have to come to terms with the fact that they will have to wait until a level-cap increase if they wish to finish the toughest zones in the game. Progression is meaningless unless it allows you to advance beyond the norm and display outstanding skill. Not everybody can be exceptional (despite what the public education system would have you believe). However, just knowing that they can TRY to reach the end-game, even if they cannot raid, would motivate people to improve. As it is, non-raiders reach a point where there is more they wish they could accomplish, but they are locked-out of doing so due to out-of-game commitments.

2) I actually covered this in an earlier post. However, allow me to reiterate that while heroic content and epic content are not designed the same way, they can be equally challenging. Instant fail-conditions that rely on simply communication and coordination skills (like most raid fail conditions do) wouldn't be as difficult to overcome in a smaller group, which is why many raids do try to minimize their numbers in such encounters. However, there are plenty of ways besides that to make an encounter difficult, indeed I am sure there are many that would work even better against small groups than against raids. Adds, for example, are much more difficult to deal with in small groups, because you probably have only one tank, and a greater concentration of vulnerable party members for them to attack. You can't devote a group to off-tanking when you only have one group!

3) This point is essentially your opinion regarding the attitudes of players. I feel you are incorrect, but since this entire point is subjective, I can offer no other rebuttal.

4) The progression I want is obviously not in-game, or else I wouldn't have been motivated to start this discussion. TSO did attempt to introduce progression-based heroic content, but as I explained in a previous post, the entire concept was ruined by the existence of raid gear that was obtained outside of the heroic progression path, and served to trivialize heroic content. Obviously raid loot is not needed for current heroic content, that is essentially the entire problem. Raiding makes heroic trivial, which undermines the entire purpose of heroic progression. If you spend 3 months playing your heart out, analyzing logs and reading forums, installing beneficial UI mods, optimizing your casting order, and are eventually able to defeat Palace of Ferzhul by the blood, sweat, and tears of your heroic-only team of friends, it's very demoralizing to watch a bunch of raiders blow through it in half an hour and complain that it's [Removed for Content] and not worth the effort.

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Old 12-09-2009, 01:22 AM   #74
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

Dasein wrote:

Making heroic content more like raids would only serve to make it more difficult for people with limited play time or irregular schedules to participate.

Raid guilds are able to complete the content they can because of the level of teamwork and institutional capability they develop. Successful raid guilds will have clear leaders, and players will have specific roles to play within the raid force, both in general terms (specific heals, buffs, debuffs, etc.) and encounter-specific roles like off-tanking adds, interrupting mobs and so on. Further, raid guilds will spend quite a bit of time analyzing combat logs and parses to figure out exactly what is going on in a fight and how to counter certain effects. This teamwork comes from playing together on a  regular basis, and spending time out of game reviewing and discussing tactics.

If heroic fights start to resemble raid encounters, then in order to succede, players will need to adopt the same sorts of play styles as raiders do now, and that means the people who cannot or do not want to raid will subsequently be shut out of heroic content. The same scheduling commitments required for raids would be applied to heroic content, as you would need to have reliable particpation so your group can learn the encounter. Further, in a 6 person group, each person is likely to have a much bigger role, so replacing one person is more of a loss, thus you may even see tighter scheduling and participation requirements for heroic content than you do for raid content.

None of the habits you describe are exclusive to raiding. They are effective habits of players who care about improving their characters and increasing their level of success in the game. There is absolutely nothing that prevents somebody from running ACT, reading forums, and analyzing data just because they don't have available time in the evenings to commit to raiding. For example, most of my free time is at night, between 11pm EST until 6am EST, because I work evenings and sleep during morning and early afternoon. It's rare that I see anybody raiding at those times on my server, but that doesn't stop me from wanting to be the best I can be. However, it is discouraging to know that the effort I put into improving my character will not be adequately tested unless I find some new profession that allows me to play during prime raid times. Heroic content simply isn't on the same level.

As for heroic content requiring raid-like scheduling, I think you exaggerate a bit. I have a regular group of friends who I play with often, and who share similar play times as myself. However, these friends number 5-8 or so, depending on the night, which is plenty to run instances, but far from sufficient for any kind of raiding. My friends and I would love to work hard to complete truly challenging content, we just don't have enough people in our clique to fill-out a full raid with any regularity. I think this is a situation faced by many players.

Actually from what I have seen and heard from people either from the forums or from looking in-game, you are in a rather small minority of people who do heroic content and are capable/competent. From all the complaining I see on the forums most people dont want engaging or challenging content in the heroic game, they want to just grab some friends and go tank and spank stuff for loot with minimal deaths or difficulty and sub-obtimal groups.

There is evidence enough in the many threads that popped up with the start of TSO from players claiming that "heroic content is ruined", "small group content is ruined", "we dont want x1 raids", "heroic players cant do heroic content". "You shouldnt have to analyze anything to play the game", "the moment you start analyzing ACT etc you stopped being casual", "if it werent for grey shards I wouldnt have any" blah blah blah. So yea, I would say we probably wont see much a chance of heroic content being too rewarding or challenging, or anywhere near the same level of raiding.

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Old 12-09-2009, 01:40 AM   #75
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Morghus wrote:

Actually from what I have seen and heard from people either from the forums or from looking in-game, you are in a rather small minority of people who do heroic content and are capable/competent. From all the complaining I see on the forums most people dont want engaging or challenging content in the heroic game, they want to just grab some friends and go tank and spank stuff for loot with minimal deaths or difficulty and sub-obtimal groups.

There is evidence enough in the many threads that popped up with the start of TSO from players claiming that "heroic content is ruined", "small group content is ruined", "we dont want x1 raids", "heroic players cant do heroic content". "You shouldnt have to analyze anything to play the game", "the moment you start analyzing ACT etc you stopped being casual", "if it werent for grey shards I wouldnt have any" blah blah blah. So yea, I would say we probably wont see much a chance of heroic content being too rewarding or challenging, or anywhere near the same level of raiding.

Well, I can't say that the thought hasn't crossed my mind, but I do try to maintain a level of optimism about the state of humanity. However, I do agree that if what you say is true, and the vast majority of heroic-only players honestly do not wish to be challenged, it would be selfish of me to wish to adapt the game to my preferences. I certainly hope that this is not the case, and that the complaints you describe (which I do remember vividly, myself) merely originated from the very vocal minority of players who were not too busy enjoying the game to visit the forums.

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Old 12-09-2009, 02:20 AM   #76
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I'm one of the people who would very much enjoy incredibly challenging heroic content, but it can't work in this game for all of the reasons listed previously in this thread.  With that said, it would be interesting to see what a next generation MMO could do with single group content if they didn't even include multi-group content (raiding) in the game at all.  I think it could be pretty awesome.

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Old 12-09-2009, 02:51 AM   #77
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[email protected] wrote:

I have NONE of the gear you mention.  My point was that not everyone runs zones over and over to get gear.  My best geared character is in all T2, T4 bracers and shard jewelry.   My guild does not raid at all.  Many guilds are similar.

My point is, if you want better gear, it is available to you. If your guild is able to clear most of the group zones in TSO, you could be starting to do WoE once a week.

What are we talking about again? Oh yes, whether there is a smooth progression from Grouping to x2 raiding to x4 raiding, and I think there is.

If you are happy with group gear (which honestly there is a lot of fabled available from grouping), then that's perfectly fine. If you want to expand your options, WoE ramps up from easy to medium to hard, based on the 150 AAs, legendary gear, and no mythical baseline they set.

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Old 12-09-2009, 05:32 AM   #78
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feldon30 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I have NONE of the gear you mention.  My point was that not everyone runs zones over and over to get gear.  My best geared character is in all T2, T4 bracers and shard jewelry.   My guild does not raid at all.  Many guilds are similar.

My point is, if you want better gear, it is available to you. If your guild is able to clear most of the group zones in TSO, you could be starting to do WoE once a week.

What are we talking about again? Oh yes, whether there is a smooth progression from Grouping to x2 raiding to x4 raiding, and I think there is.

If you are happy with group gear (which honestly there is a lot of fabled available from grouping), then that's perfectly fine. If you want to expand your options, WoE ramps up from easy to medium to hard, based on the 150 AAs, legendary gear, and no mythical baseline they set.

Yes I'm happy.  I think progression is fine.  I was just saying that "gearing up" is not the only reason to play this game. I'm perfectly happy to max aa's and tradeskill levels on my guys.  When I log in I consider what quest to work on, not which piece of gear needs upgraded.   The only reason I lucked into the T4 bracers is I have some friends that raid and they asked me to fill in one night when their main templar couldn't play.  Was I happy?  You bet, but not enough to want to raid full time.   I've been to WoE but by the 3rd time in I found it boring.  My ADD isn't raid friendly.  lol

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Old 12-09-2009, 05:39 AM   #79
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Kizee wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I have NONE of the gear you mention.  My point was that not everyone runs zones over and over to get gear.  My best geared character is in all T2, T4 bracers and shard jewelry.   My guild does not raid at all.  Many guilds are similar.

If you don't run zones over and over for gear then why are you playing a game that the main goal in it is to make your character better and progress through zones?

I would say that the guilds that do not raid AT ALL are in the minortity.

BTW your guild has 2 people in it....1 if you dual box.....just sayin.

The 2nd person in my guild is just an alt of the wife so I can have her invite all my alts.  My main goal is to raise 9 tradeskillers to cap and have all my high level characters at max aa.  It is a valid playstyle even if it isn't the popular one.   Even though I spend most of my time soloing I still managed to get 2 myth'd characters and a Levi trophy for my guild hall that I'm proud of. (rolled a 999 on a /ran 1000 during a PUR)

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Old 12-09-2009, 06:59 AM   #80
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[email protected] DLere wrote:

Posts like this provide hours of entertaining reading for me at work...

First and foremost, since I don't think its been beaten enough to make sure that people get it, the ONLY true way to have progression with Solo content, Heroic content, and Epic content is to have:

solo loot < group loot < raid loot.

Otherwise you have the EXACT opposite of progression. I have played at all 3 levels of this game at different points. Ive even raided different amounts at different times. Each has its percs. This is a classic case of people wanting to have the best stuff w/ the least work. To reiterate what Bigron has already said a few times, if you add an easier way for people to get the best gear.. they will use it. This would be an isnult to all the people who want a challenge and like being rewarded for that success.

Totally disagree, you straight away assume that because something requires less people it must be easier, why?

Personally I want a challenge here, I left another MMO because they presented me with exactly what you are asking for here, a easy mode trivial world where the game is reduced down to running a couple of instanced raids to find any sort of challenge.  The rest of it is just easy stuff that offers no progression path, that grew boring very very fast.

You can actually easily go the other way, and often in a raiding enviroment you do, unless there are numerous instant fail conditions added its very easy to drag the 24th person on auto follow through a raid zone, its much harder to do that in a 6 man heroic.

For that reason I'd say keep a heroic 6 man path that awards at its top level loot that compares to some of the raids just as long as its rock hard, that will mean that specific group compositions will be favoured, but that always happens anyway. Actually this to me screams challenge, if you've completed a zone with the optimum group, I'm the sort of person who then wants to go back and do it again with something wacky, that to me is an achievement as its one thing to beat a game with the right stuff, its another to hammer it into the ground doing it with the wrong stuff.

Not everyone wants to raid, I'd expect if the system is done right for the loot to overlap a bit at the solo to heroic to raid loot levels, the reason to raid should be to do the ultimate storyline completing events and eventually at the top end to get the ultimate gear.

If there is the worry that people will somehow find a way to short cut this progression by missing the lower raids to do heroic content then that means either

  • The heroic content is too easy
  • The early raiding is too hard
  • The early raiding is less enjoyable then the heroic content
  • Or people cannot get raid groups

The first three problems are things the designers should fix, not doing a kludge like that other MMO where if content was boring they'd up the reward to make sure people "experienced" it.  The last problem is exactly why there should be a varied path of heroic content.

I've played another MMO where they changed the heroics to be very easy, that meant that for things to do you now have a lot of bored people with nothing else in the game to do but run raids.  That also means that unless the raids are easy enough to pug (because these people aren't interested in raiding and the challenges of syncing up with 23 other people, even if they might be individually very skilled at running their class in the 6 man environment) you dumb down the team work of raiding to accomodate them.

[email protected] DLere wrote:

Oh, and of any expansion, I think TSO offers the MOST variety of difficulty at the heroic level of ANY expansion... by a solid margin too. You have several easier instances, some medium ones, and a couple that are fairly difficult. TBH, i love the Varsoon fight. I think they did a solid job of coming up with a heroic encounter that required a decent amount of time, work, and thought.

To make my point very clear, Im not opposed to heroic progression.. but to have it be in ANY way comparable to end game raid content loot wise is just insane. Thats not to say there can't be the occasion item thats on par with some of the intro level raid gear.. but to have end game items out of heroic content is silly.

I agree on the TSO, what I've seen so far really has excited me, that's exactly what I want from a game with the variety of hard content outside of a raid, I do actually want to raid again too.  But I don't want to feel like I have to raid to find anything challenging to do, but if I'm being challenged in the heroic content then I expect it to overlap to an extent to the raiding content gearwise.

Put it this way, I don't expect some keyboard droolers who get carried through the first level of raiding content to just be able to blast through all the heroic content without any sort of challenge.  Neither would I want to be that person who after stepping out of the first tier of raid to have nothing else to do but raid because everything was now trivialised with the early raid gear I'd acquired.

So I'm completely against the sort of progression you want there, if something in the game has a challenge it should offer loot in comparison to the challenge, the loot being needed to progress onto the next challenge.  And if/when I do get raiding I don't expect to be spending my entire EQ2 life in one instanced raid or another instanced raid, I want a MMORPG and I expect with that deal a big huge challenging world.

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Old 12-09-2009, 02:19 PM   #81
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Actually I think with TSO SOE got the progression quite right.

- Is there enough heroic content? - Yes, lots of zones.

- Is there a heroic content progression? - shure, it is definitly there - especially if you have no raid loot. Just go to PoF, Guk3 or MManor in all legendary gear plus  epic weapon... it's not impossible but will be hard.

- Are the top heroic trivialized by having high level raid loot? - Not really - I have failed with PUGs in T4 TSO gear in these zones when they wanted to just "burn'em"

- Are there incentives to go to those heroic zones? - Shure, some of the rare fabled drops in there are still on the hardcore raiders shopping list - just think Rolling Pin, varsoon Robe or Najena Ring...

- And finally: should the top level heroic zones consistently drop loot comparable to endgame raiding - I think not, as the top raid stuff is still quite a bit harder than PoF.

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Old 12-09-2009, 03:10 PM   #82
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I also feel TSO got the zones, difficulty and progression right. While there are things that I don't agree with in the design of TSO raid encounters, I feel the Heroic side was very good in TSO. Solo, well, TSO left much to be desired IMO and I play all 3 styles.

- WOE is extremely popular and is one of the most run zones ATM on my server. When it was released, there was a huge outcry by the casual population to nerf it down and make it easier - mostly due to the detrmentals from trash. Now, casuals have adjusted, this is no longer an issue and casuals are having fun running the zone.

- RE2 was also a very popular zone that was supposedly "too difficult" on release. Everyone was running it right before TSO.

- SOE has to design for multiple playstyles. This includes the HC Raider, Casual Raider, Casual Heroic, Solo Quester, Crafter and Socialites. Sacrificing one of these playstyles or trying to merge it will be a failure.

TSO zones did a very good job of introducing raid script mechanics in heroic zones. Unfortunately, most zones with those more complex scripts are the ones people complain about. Nec Asylum, Ravenscale, POF, Outer Stronhold - these are all good tastes of complex scripts yet people hate many of these zones.

I am personally in favor of large-scale epic questlines that start in casual settings and eventually take you to epic. The best example I can find is the Peacock Club quest series. LOTRO does this throughout the game with a system of Books and Chapters and I fell it's very effective from all standpoints. The TSO Signature Quest was a good start but honestly was a very superficial quest series. Just blatantly requiring that you run all heroic zones as a requirement with no reason is dull and not imaginative. I feel like one of the best TSO questlines was the Dragonscale Cloak HQ. It was different, funny and had a pretty decent reward.

Raiders don't all go from raid zones -> raid zones to the exclusion of heroic and solo content. Some might try, but especially on a level cap raise, this is not the most efficient way. Raiders will also do heroic content if there are items that are needed - such as NHT, RE2 in ROK, The TSO Sig Quest series etc.

When it comes down to it, itemization is what makes or breaks a zone. If it's messed up, people won't run the zone. Take MMB before it was boosted and Miragul's before it was boosted. Even the heroic zones that don't have the goods don't make the cut. Don't see many people running Kor Sha or Veks2 (now that the sash is proven to be ungodly rare and many have the Brainless Belt from the HH) or some of the other zones that don't have desireable pieces.

Most players are loot motivated - that's what this game is about. it's also important to keep the loot tables seperate and distinct. Raid gear is motivation for casuals to break out of the mold and take the game more seriously. Heroic gear is motivation for the soloers to spend more time learning how to group.

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Old 12-14-2009, 09:32 AM   #83
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

Morghus wrote:

Actually from what I have seen and heard from people either from the forums or from looking in-game, you are in a rather small minority of people who do heroic content and are capable/competent. From all the complaining I see on the forums most people dont want engaging or challenging content in the heroic game, they want to just grab some friends and go tank and spank stuff for loot with minimal deaths or difficulty and sub-obtimal groups.

There is evidence enough in the many threads that popped up with the start of TSO from players claiming that "heroic content is ruined", "small group content is ruined", "we dont want x1 raids", "heroic players cant do heroic content". "You shouldnt have to analyze anything to play the game", "the moment you start analyzing ACT etc you stopped being casual", "if it werent for grey shards I wouldnt have any" blah blah blah. So yea, I would say we probably wont see much a chance of heroic content being too rewarding or challenging, or anywhere near the same level of raiding.

Well, I can't say that the thought hasn't crossed my mind, but I do try to maintain a level of optimism about the state of humanity. However, I do agree that if what you say is true, and the vast majority of heroic-only players honestly do not wish to be challenged, it would be selfish of me to wish to adapt the game to my preferences. I certainly hope that this is not the case, and that the complaints you describe (which I do remember vividly, myself) merely originated from the very vocal minority of players who were not too busy enjoying the game to visit the forums.

I do see a lot of posts like this, however I think there is a big difference between what people ask for, and what people actually want.

This is where I really do hope the dev's that read the forums know how to translate the various ideas, suggestions and rants into actually what we want.

E.G. if I complain on the forums that it takes too long to get enough xyz rep, then the obvious solution is to increase the speed you get rep at.

But thinking it through what I'm actually saying is I'm not enjoying the process of getting that rep, so maybe the real problem I have is that the method of getting that rep is not fun/satisfying/too repetitive?

Spending 2 hours grinding away just doing tank + spank on masses of mobs with the occasional boss you need to interrupt isn't my idea of fun, but for some people that's indeed what they seem to be asking for, I never played EQ1 and while it sounds great it also sounds like it had some pretty tedious mechanics in areas (camping!).  However looking at the most popular MMO out there right now and they have all their dungeons with raid like scripts, that seems to be popular there (even if you quickly get enough gear to trivialise them all).

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Old 12-15-2009, 12:51 PM   #84
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Gaige wrote:

The_Cheeseman wrote:

So, what I am gathering here is that most players agree that casual players don't really want to be challenged by heroic content, and raiders don't believe that non-raiders deserve the same level of rewards.

If raid encounters really are more difficult by nature, then I could see the point of keeping them separate. However, it is my belief that were a competent design team to seriously attempt to create heroic encounters that equaled the challenge of raid encounters, that similar rewards would be deserved for completing them.

Casual players do not want to be challenged, even if the rewards are worth it.  The perfect example is WoE x2 vs KT x2.  KT x2 has some great gear but hardly anyone does it because its challenging.  WoE has been nerfed into a snoozefest tank and spank zone and you see PURs running it nightly.

Same with heroic zones.  What gets PUG'd the most?  HT, DF - the least?  Palace and the Guk instances.

"Challenging" heroic content with minor scripts (when compared to raid scripts) exist and they reward great gear and for the team's effort hardly anyone does them.  They'd rather mindlessly do HT for the 300th tanking and spanking with any group of 6 (or less).

Almost every player outside of the players who consistently raid only care about the path of least resistance.  If a quest had them either run HT 50 times or kill Varsoon in PoF, they'd do HT 50 times.

Your idea won't work.

Seriously?   Whoever said that Casual players don't want a challenge is just spreading a stereotype.     I am a casual player, meaning I have a family and RL commitments that I cannot always be on the computer for 2 to 3 hours straight to go through some of the content.    

I am also a skilled player who LOVES a challenge.  

The key is finding the right balance between the time required for encounters and the challenge.    It IS possible to tell a story, create a challenging encounter, and make it SHORT.    I love this game and would gladly come back to it for good if the designers would just make it less time intensive.    You raiders don't get rewarded for skill inasmuch as you get rewarded for living your life in the game.    You wanted EQ1 with an EQ2 skin, you got it.   

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Old 12-15-2009, 12:58 PM   #85
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Kizee wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

I have NONE of the gear you mention.  My point was that not everyone runs zones over and over to get gear.  My best geared character is in all T2, T4 bracers and shard jewelry.   My guild does not raid at all.  Many guilds are similar.

If you don't run zones over and over for gear then why are you playing a game that the main goal in it is to make your character better and progress through zones?

I would say that the guilds that do not raid AT ALL are in the minortity.

BTW your guild has 2 people in it....1 if you dual box.....just sayin.

Seriously - it's this attitude that is sad.

Why play if you don't want the best gear and to progress through zones?    We the casuals play for what some people call "fun".    I know it's a concept foreign to your breed. 

As a casual I want to see story, I want a challenge,  I want to face danger and I want to be able to have that and still spend time with my family every evening. 

Sadly, that is no longer possible through the successful efforts of you and those like you.   Congrats.     I'm not here for the best gears, I am here for fun.

**Sorry for the double post

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Old 12-15-2009, 01:01 PM   #86
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Saneos wrote:

Seriously?   Whoever said that Casual players don't want a challenge is just spreading a stereotype.     I am a casual player, meaning I have a family and RL commitments that I cannot always be on the computer for 2 to 3 hours straight to go through some of the content.    

I am also a skilled player who LOVES a challenge.  

The key is finding the right balance between the time required for encounters and the challenge.    It IS possible to tell a story, create a challenging encounter, and make it SHORT.    I love this game and would gladly come back to it for good if the designers would just make it less time intensive.    You raiders don't get rewarded for skill inasmuch as you get rewarded for living your life in the game.    You wanted EQ1 with an EQ2 skin, you got it.   

You complain about someone spreading a stereotype while spreading your own.

I work a full time job that is occassionally 50 hours a week. I have other RL commitments as well. I don't "live my life in the game". I do, however, raid 5 days a week and play some outside of that as well because THIS is my hobby and what I choose for entertainment (I watch very little TV or movies, spending more time in game than with either of those).

I don't call myself hardcore or casual. I jsut call myself a player of EQ2.

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Old 12-15-2009, 01:03 PM   #87
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Rijacki wrote:

Saneos wrote:

Seriously?   Whoever said that Casual players don't want a challenge is just spreading a stereotype.     I am a casual player, meaning I have a family and RL commitments that I cannot always be on the computer for 2 to 3 hours straight to go through some of the content.    

I am also a skilled player who LOVES a challenge.  

The key is finding the right balance between the time required for encounters and the challenge.    It IS possible to tell a story, create a challenging encounter, and make it SHORT.    I love this game and would gladly come back to it for good if the designers would just make it less time intensive.    You raiders don't get rewarded for skill inasmuch as you get rewarded for living your life in the game.    You wanted EQ1 with an EQ2 skin, you got it.   

You complain about someone spreading a stereotype while spreading your own.

I work a full time job that is occassionally 50 hours a week. I have other RL commitments as well. I don't "live my life in the game". I do, however, raid 5 days a week and play some outside of that as well because THIS is my hobby and what I choose for entertainment (I watch very little TV or movies, spending more time in game than with either of those).

I don't call myself hardcore or casual. I jsut call myself a player of EQ2.

Do a /played and post it here.    Enough said.

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Old 12-15-2009, 01:27 PM   #88
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I think the OP's idea actaully has a lot of merit here, but only if the loot in the raid zone was itemised (maybe with a stat like anti-crit) that made it needed for raid progression.  I'd probably also make the raid gear 1 level up in power for the difficulty, therefore the ultimate gear has to be raided for, that's the ultimate carrot.

The_Cheeseman wrote:

I can definitely see where you are coming from there. Much of the current market research in the gaming industry points toward a trend of casual gamers dominating the market. The success of systems like the Wii and family-oriented games does suggest that the "hardcore" play style is diminishing in number. However, I think that games like EQ and EQ2 appeal to the hardcore and therefore make a good home for such players.

I definitely agree, EQ2 despite what people are saying isn't a casual game, Facebook RMT games are casual, Lego games on the Wii are casual, even WoW is a bit more hardcore seeing you have to spend nigh on a month to get to 80.

I believe the player base of EQ2 is actually on the whole pretty much more hardcore then WoW, over time too the more WoW dumbs down the more appealing EQ2 becomes to the hardcore there (of which WoW has a surprisingly large number still, although for them there is only 1-2 raids at a time that off any sort of challenge hence people burn out).

The_Cheeseman wrote:

Also, if all the heroic content was not so trivial (as the vast majority of it is, today) the casual player would spend more time consuming the heroic content available to them before they get bored with it and need more. Running Crypt of Agony 50 times is pretty boring, but working on conquering Guk3 or PoF over a series of attempts, learning the scripts and MOB strategies and refining your gear and spell choices for each encounter, would be much more rewarding in the long run (again, assuming that they were actually end-game and could not be trivialized by raiders, as I explained in my previous post). It would also be much better training for raid encounters, serving as an additional boon in that it would help casual players get some experience with raid-level scripting and encounter tactics.

Well WoW has all its dungeons with scripted boss encounters which are actually at times fairly complex, that's a very easy game aimed at very casual players, the formulae of having scripted bosses is a proven success too since their TBC expansion was the one that took them from ~2 million players to the non-chinese peak of about 5 million, it remains to be seen if the dumbing down in the latest expansion will actually be a big success in the rear view mirror.

So based on that I think the casual players do actually enjoy a challenge, or at least offering them a sort of cheat to beating a seemingly invincible boss (by working out his abilities - reading up on wiki!), grinding mindlessly isn't too successful or stimulating.

Personally I'd put a few abilities on mobs/bosses in the heroic content that worked on % damage here and there, that would straight away keep the challenge in the game.  For example there was a raid boss in WoW that periodically lowered several people's health to 1, and then 3s later AoE'd 20 yards around him.  I've run there since it became grey content, and very well geared players get found out instantly there either not heeding the warning signs, or running into the fire

The_Cheeseman wrote:

EDIT: To further clarify my point about content sharing, think of heroic and epic content as two halves of a pie. In today's EQ2, you basically have raiders eating the epic half and ignoring the heroic half (finding it bland and tasteless), while casuals devour the heroic half, but are unable to take more than a couple bites of the epic half (let's say, due to a food allergy or whatever). If my proposal were to be implemented, raiders would see a much more flavorful and desirable heroic half of the pie that they'd enjoy consuming, while casuals would have the ability to overcome their food allergy and take some big, juicy bites of the epic half, even if their appetite wasn't great enough to finish either half on their own.

Hmm, I'm not sure though that you can make it so that someone can progress in the heroic content and then turn around and jump to the end raid content.  I think maybe if the raid content progresses over 5 raids I'd not like to see heroic people jump in earlier then raid 2 or maybe at a pinch 3, the problem will be that heroic content will need to be slightly harder as its easier to co-ordinate 6 people then 24 and also some class combinations will be more ideal.

But if you make the raid content drop gear that really is needed to progress further in the raid content (for example if it had some sort of heavy poison resistance on it or another stat), you could limit the jump that someone could make just purely doing heroic content.  Then at the same time you can keep the heroic content dropping similar gear with a few items being quite tasty for raiding, that's extra content to play for raiders.

Personally when I've raided I have enjoyed it, the problem is it just feels too often to me like a chore organising things hence I've wanted to take a break for a while, heroic content with a level of progression excited me about TSO. 

Sure there will be something harder then I can handle somewhere, but lots of people moaned about that with WoW's TBC, but at the same time it was the most popular expansion ever, I think people moaning about wanting to get further in the game is a very healthy thing.  In the WoW guild I played in a lot of long time players have left there after burning out with a diet of just easy mode content during WotLK, they were kept entertained during TBC, even if sometimes a bad run wiping 5-9 times in a dungeon was frustrating we kept coming back for more.

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Old 12-15-2009, 01:46 PM   #89
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Saneos wrote:

Do a /played and post it here.    Enough said.

Quit blaming your inability to be successful at EQ2 on your RL commitments, no one is buying it.

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Old 12-15-2009, 02:10 PM   #90
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Gaige wrote:

Saneos wrote:

Do a /played and post it here.    Enough said.

Quit blaming your inability to be successful at EQ2 on your RL commitments, no one is buying it.

I'm not interested in being successful at EQ2.    I want to play and have fun, yet still be able to experience all the content I'm paying the same price for.    

Someone said I was being hypocritical about pointing out a stereotype and making my own.    I wasn't making my own stereotype, I was pointing out the truth.

Do a /played and post it here.     Then you'll see how much of your "life" you do spend in the game. 

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