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Old 12-07-2009, 01:43 AM   #31
therodge

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The_Cheeseman wrote:

I think Therodge brought up some interesting points, unfortunately the format of the post makes it difficult to addess each one point-by-point, but I'll do my best to cover the parts I disagree on.

Regarding Palace of Ferzhul, I agree that it is a significantly underused zone. However, I disagree that this is ONLY because it is very difficult. The main problem I see with PoF is that it was designed to be an extremely difficult, end-game zone for the heroic progression path. The problem? Raiding allows one to completely bypass the heroic progression path and acquire loot that makes the best heroic loot obsolete. Because of this, what would normally be a very difficult zone that few players are able to complete (as it should be, it being an end-game zone) it turned into a zone that only people with raid loot even attempt (since such loot can guarantee victory). However, while the loot in PoF is very good, it's not end-game for most raiders, so they have little motivation to run it often. This basically means that heroic players refuse to do it without raiders along to trivialize it, and raiders rarely bother to do it at all, so it very rarely get's done.

Now, if PoF dropped loot that was equal to Munzok's Material Bastion, you bet your bottom people would be doing it. Of course, this comparison is flawed because Munzok's was designed as the end to a much longer progression line, but the point is this: if PoF was end-game for both heroic AND epic progression, and was just as challenging as the end-game epic zones (only designed for 6 people rather than 24) people would be doing it. Raiders would run it regularly on days when they are locked-out of their raid zones because the rewards are just as desirable. The truly skilled and dedicated heroic players would have the required gear levels to succeed as well (though it likely took them longer to reach such levels, being unable to raid) and could join the raiders on their excursions. Those players who lacked the skill or dedication to reach that level of progression (probably the majority) would never experience it, but they never experience end-game content as it is, either.

The attitude of entitlement that so many players feel towards heroic content is much of the problem. There would be many people who would feel it is unfair that they cannot finish PoF with any random group of 6, but personally, I feel no sympathy for that attitude. Without challenges to which we can aspire, we have no motivation to improve or even keep playing. I think that heroic content deserves the same scale of challenge and reward as epic content, which means that--like the current raiding game--there will be points where some players simply reach the limit of their success and are unable to proceed further.

well simply put, their are only so many zones they can put in game during a period of time makeing content for the smallest minority of eq2 (hard core groupers?) wont see the returns and will only force the game into the abyss that is all

Edit i suppose what im saying is that by devloping what you are thinking of effectivly takes development time from 2 much more popular areas of the game hardcore raiding and casual grouping, this for raiding might be a slightly good thing as it would give high end players more content, but in the end kills off any chance of casual content which is atleast 50% of the player base (and thats being nice)

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Old 12-07-2009, 02:07 AM   #32
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Palace of Ferzhul and Ykesha's Outer Stronghold both drop some incredibly good loot that's on-par with mid-level TSO raid loot. Hell even some HQ rewards are extremely good for raiders.

*Robe of the Undying is the best Summoner robe you can get without killing Anashti Sul, Ykesha, or Avatars.

*The signature quest rewards for priests and mages are the best out there without raiding.

*A good chunk of raid healers use Ferhustr's Furious Rolling-Pin because the proc is good.

*White Dragonscale Cloak, a Heritage Quest reward, is one of the best cloaks in the game for mages; only Munzok's Material Bastion cloaks, Ward of Elements cloaks, or Drape of the Void-Touched from PoFerzhul cloaks can compete.

*Dark Mail Gauntlets, a Heritage Quest reward, are the best caster gloves in the game if you don't have your T4 gloves.

*Najena's Ring of Readiness from Najena's Hollow Tower is, simply put, the best ring in the game.

*Aidyl's Scaled Sash of Dragon Songs can only be matched by killing Miragul or his Menagerie, Trakanon, or Ykesha.

Hell, T2 void shard shoulders are the best in the game without raiding Ward of Elements or Mynzak/Zarrakon.

To say there's no loot out of heroic zones that even Raiders want is an outright lie. Certainly if you have endgame loot it's a downgrade, but the majority of raiders do not have endgame raid loot.

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Old 12-07-2009, 02:13 AM   #33
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therodge wrote:

well simply put, their are only so many zones they can put in game during a period of time makeing content for the smallest minority of eq2 (hard core groupers?) wont see the returns and will only force the game into the abyss that is all

Edit i suppose what im saying is that by devloping what you are thinking of effectivly takes development time from 2 much more popular areas of the game hardcore raiding and casual grouping, this for raiding might be a slightly good thing as it would give high end players more content, but in the end kills off any chance of casual content which is atleast 50% of the player base (and thats being nice)

I can definitely see where you are coming from there. Much of the current market research in the gaming industry points toward a trend of casual gamers dominating the market. The success of systems like the Wii and family-oriented games does suggest that the "hardcore" play style is diminishing in number. However, I think that games like EQ and EQ2 appeal to the hardcore and therefore make a good home for such players.

I agree that sacrificing low-end content for the sake of producing more high-end content is probably not ideal. However, I also do not think that such a situation would have to be the result of my proposal. If properly implemented, there would be more heroic zones that casuals would never see than there are today, but there would be more epic zones that they could see when they have the opportunity to raid, since their gear would not restrict them as much. In the end, they'd have less heroic content to participate in, but more epic content, so it would balance out.

Also, if all the heroic content was not so trivial (as the vast majority of it is, today) the casual player would spend more time consuming the heroic content available to them before they get bored with it and need more. Running Crypt of Agony 50 times is pretty boring, but working on conquering Guk3 or PoF over a series of attempts, learning the scripts and MOB strategies and refining your gear and spell choices for each encounter, would be much more rewarding in the long run (again, assuming that they were actually end-game and could not be trivialized by raiders, as I explained in my previous post). It would also be much better training for raid encounters, serving as an additional boon in that it would help casual players get some experience with raid-level scripting and encounter tactics.

EDIT: To further clarify my point about content sharing, think of heroic and epic content as two halves of a pie. In today's EQ2, you basically have raiders eating the epic half and ignoring the heroic half (finding it bland and tasteless), while casuals devour the heroic half, but are unable to take more than a couple bites of the epic half (let's say, due to a food allergy or whatever). If my proposal were to be implemented, raiders would see a much more flavorful and desirable heroic half of the pie that they'd enjoy consuming, while casuals would have the ability to overcome their food allergy and take some big, juicy bites of the epic half, even if their appetite wasn't great enough to finish either half on their own.

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Old 12-07-2009, 02:18 AM   #34
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

It would also be much better training for raid encounters, serving as an additional boon in that it would help casual players get some experience with raid-level scripting and encounter tactics.

Raiding and running instances isn't all that different: Pull the mob, see what it does, see what you need to do, adapt, kill. Even the final boss of Deep Forge, arguably the easiest TSO instance, has a script that needs to be learned (albeit an easy one).

The difference is that learning a raid boss could take as many as 50 pulls until you finally find a strategy that works, then repeated pulls to refine the strat, until you finally kill it. This is expecetd for raids.

PuGs, on the other hand, expect to be able to kill a mob within 1 or 2 pulls.

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Old 12-07-2009, 02:23 AM   #35
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Xalmat wrote:

To say there's no loot out of heroic zones that even Raiders want is an outright lie. Certainly if you have endgame loot it's a downgrade, but the majority of raiders do not have endgame raid loot.

I never said that there is no loot in heroic zones that raiders want. I said that raiders have little motivation to expend significant effort to repeatedly run heroic content for such loot, because they can look forward to obtaining better loot from raid encounters. It's not that there isn't loot that would be valuable to some raiders, it's that the effort needed to acquire the best heroic items (which are generally very rare) is usually too great for an item that's just a modest upgrade and will be replaced later by raiding. This is of course a generalization, and it depends on exactly how tough such items are to get, but in general I'd say that the majority of successful raiders feel little motivation to run heroic zones except for very specific, corner-case items (like Najena's Ring).

Heck, look at the complaints from many raiders regarding Najena's Ring, specifically. There were many who were outright angry that they felt forced to do heroic content (which they considered trivial and below their ability) to acquire an item that was equivalent to end-game raid drops. This does not represent all raiders of course, but these opinions were at least a significantly vocal minority.

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Old 12-07-2009, 02:27 AM   #36
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Xalmat wrote:

Raiding and running instances isn't all that different: Pull the mob, see what it does, see what you need to do, adapt, kill. Even the final boss of Deep Forge, arguably the easiest TSO instance, has a script that needs to be learned (albeit an easy one).

The difference is that learning a raid boss could take as many as 50 pulls until you finally find a strategy that works, then repeated pulls to refine the strat, until you finally kill it. This is expecetd for raids.

PuGs, on the other hand, expect to be able to kill a mob within 1 or 2 pulls.

Your post here supports everything I have been saying. Raiding and grouping aren't all that inherently different, the main points that set them apart are encounter design and player expectations. Raids tend to be designed for greater challenge, while players expect to be able to succeed in heroic content without much difficulty. My solution is to expand encounter design to include difficult heroic content, and dispel the attitude of entitlement that surrounds heroic content.

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Old 12-07-2009, 02:30 AM   #37
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

There were many who were outright angry that they felt forced to do heroic content (which they considered trivial and below their ability) to acquire an item that was equivalent to end-game raid drops.

I say "boo hoo". But in principle heroic loot should never be better than end-game raid loot.

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Old 12-07-2009, 02:31 AM   #38
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

therodge wrote:

well simply put, their are only so many zones they can put in game during a period of time makeing content for the smallest minority of eq2 (hard core groupers?) wont see the returns and will only force the game into the abyss that is all

Edit i suppose what im saying is that by devloping what you are thinking of effectivly takes development time from 2 much more popular areas of the game hardcore raiding and casual grouping, this for raiding might be a slightly good thing as it would give high end players more content, but in the end kills off any chance of casual content which is atleast 50% of the player base (and thats being nice)

I can definitely see where you are coming from there. Much of the current market research in the gaming industry points toward a trend of casual gamers dominating the market. The success of systems like the Wii and family-oriented games does suggest that the "hardcore" play style is diminishing in number. However, I think that games like EQ and EQ2 appeal to the hardcore and therefore make a good home for such players.

I agree that sacrificing low-end content for the sake of producing more high-end content is probably not ideal. However, I also do not think that sucb a situation would have to be the result of my proposal. If properly implimented, there would be more heroic zones that casuals would never see than there are today, but there would be more epic zones that they could see when they have the opportunity to raid, since their gear would not restrict them as much. In the end, they'd have less heroic content to participate in, but more epic content, so it would balance out.

Also, if all the heroic content was not so trivial (as the vast majority of it is, today) the casual player would spend more time consuming the heroic content available to them before they get bored with it and need more. Running Crypt of Agony 50 times is pretty boring, but working on conquering Guk3 or PoF over a series of attempts, learning the scripts and MOB strategies and refining your gear and spell choices for each encounter, would be much more rewarding in the long run (again, assuming that they were actually end-game and could not be trivialized by raiders, as I explained in my previous post). It would also be much better training for raid encounters, serving as an additional boon in that it would help casual players get some experience with raid-level scripting and encounter tactics.

the main problem with this is you assume people will Rise to the Challenge, so to speak. I beileve this to be an incorrect assumption, i would say 95% of he casual base will simply give up and move to another game before that happens, right now id say 70% of the casual base hasent even steped foot in Necrotic asylum and 90% of the casual base hasent set foot in ferzual, im not saying that they havent completed it im saying they havent even tryed and or tryed once and said screw it.

Alot of casuals say, hey i just dont have the time, this is a lie to themselves you see, as most dont try too i mean why would they, i think we can agree that dieing over and over is frustrating the hardcore players (weather the raid or not) see this as a chance to acheive something thats difficult the casual see this as a waste of time and would rather do other things if the game does not offer them avenues for that then they will move to something more to their playstyle

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Old 12-07-2009, 02:49 AM   #39
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therodge wrote:

the main problem with this is you assume people will Rise to the Challenge, so to speak. I beileve this to be an incorrect assumption, i would say 95% of he casual base will simply give up and move to another game before that happens, right now id say 70% of the casual base hasent even steped foot in Necrotic asylum and 90% of the casual base hasent set foot in ferzual, im not saying that they havent completed it im saying they havent even tryed and or tryed once and said screw it.

Alot of casuals say, hey i just dont have the time, this is a lie to themselves you see, as most dont try too i mean why would they, i think we can agree that dieing over and over is frustrating the hardcore players (weather the raid or not) see this as a chance to acheive something thats difficult the casual see this as a waste of time and would rather do other things if the game does not offer them avenues for that then they will move to something more to their playstyle

I can see where you are coming from, here, but I question whether it is wise to design content in a progression-based MMO (of which EQ2 is most assuredly an example) that caters to what is essentially unwillingness to progress. I feel this is a good example of player's not actually knowing that they want. If all content is easy and doesn't require you to expend much effort, what is the point in continuing to play? I am sure that if SOE were to offer every player in EQ2 a button that could spawn any item they want, very few would turn the offer down. However, after a short period of excitement while enjoying their new uberness, they'd just get bored and move on to a new game. Players always ask for easier access to the things they desire, but they don't actually enjoy when it happens (unless the specific goal was actually unbalanced and overly hard in the first place, but that is a whole other can of worms). It just makes the game boring and monotonous. Therefore, I claim that while many people may complain at first, even more people would welcome the chance to face real challenges and achieve tangible successes in the game.

At least, that is what I prefer to believe. If you are indeed correct, and MMO players in general are too complacent to enjoy challenging content, then I am worried that my own days of MMO-playing will come to and end. I hope that this is not the case.

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Old 12-07-2009, 02:56 AM   #40
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

 My solution is to expand encounter design to include difficult heroic content, and dispel the attitude of entitlement that surrounds heroic content.

All that your solution is doing is disolving raid content and just having a heroric game design with the best loot coming at the highest diffucult heroric dungeon.If there is heroric content that drops the best gear in game...this is no incentive to get 24 people together to die 50 times to get the same quality of loot.

People take path of least resistence as a majority.

There is a clear path of progression

Solo

Heroric

Epic

And generaly itemization represents this.But to take the highest quality of loot and make it availible with the easy of heroric content just destroys the epic part of progression...so why even bother then.

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Old 12-07-2009, 03:09 AM   #41
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I consider myself to be a light raider, have full t3 and some jewelery from WOE and my myth.  I have an SK alt, ful t2 with myth.  He has sucessfully tanked every TSO zone, except for YOS,(haven't tried it yet) and PoF (have cleared everything up to Varsoon.  The only reason that we couldn't kill varsoon is that in full T2 my crit mit is just not high enough, I would get creamed way toeasily , in the dozen or so pulls we attempted we got to blade room twice, and that was mainly because we got insanely lucky during fire room with me hitting damage avoids at the right time.  Maybe it would have been different with a better group make up, but if we had brought in a second healer then we wouldn't have had enough DPS to kill him quick enough in the blade room.  I'm all for challenging content, heck I wish I could do more of it, but it seems most people don't want to take rangers anywhere, but I digress, but if the content is supposed to be doable by groupers at the top of their games, then a group geared tank shouldn't be consistantly one rounded by the mob due to unlucky crits.  Bring on the scripts and the jumping through hoops and rubbing your belly while saying the alphabet backwards or whatever, I'm all for it, just keep in mind that people in group gear need to be able to survive while that is going on.

for reference http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...erId=1192125203 has 200AA

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Old 12-07-2009, 03:33 AM   #42
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[email protected] wrote:

All that your solution is doing is disolving raid content and just having a heroric game design with the best loot coming at the highest diffucult heroric dungeon.If there is heroric content that drops the best gear in game...this is no incentive to get 24 people together to die 50 times to get the same quality of loot.

People take path of least resistence as a majority.

There is a clear path of progression

Solo

Heroric

Epic

And generaly itemization represents this.But to take the highest quality of loot and make it availible with the easy of heroric content just destroys the epic part of progression...so why even bother then.

I disagree that Solo -> Heroic -> Epic is any sort of progression. You, yourself, have posted on Flames in a topic discussing this very subject, and as it was brought-up there, most raiders tend to go straight from last tier's raid content into the current tier's content without ever touching heroic zones. On the other hand, those players who cannot raid regularly but who still consumed heroic content can generally plow over all the trivial solo content on their way to the level cap without getting many significant upgrades. Therefore, I make that claim that solo is trivial for everybody and shouldn't be seriously considered a "play style" but rather something to do when you can't find a group. Heroic and Epic are the two real play styles, and considering how rarely they interact, I don't see why one should produce better rewards than the other.

You claim that offering equal rewards in heroic content will stop people from raiding. I say that some people really enjoy raiding as a play style and will continue to do so regardless. Also, the heroic content that I suggest would drop end-game loot would be just as difficult as the end-game epic content, so getting the loot from those heroic zones wouldn't be easier, just different. I fail to see how offering alternative advancement paths is a bad idea, generally having more options is considered a benefit of successful design.

Besides, there will always be people who min-max and want specific items for certain slots. Even if the overall quality of loot is equal between end-game epic and heroic content, people will still prefer certain items over others. If what you consider to be the best healer charm in the game drops in a heroic zone, you'll do that zone until you get it. If the best healer wrist drops in an epic zone, you'll do that zone as well, etc. The point is you have more choices in how you want to advance your character, rather than just farming the same handfull of raid zones once every 5 days and barely logging-on otherwise.

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Old 12-07-2009, 03:59 AM   #43
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

 Therefore, I make that claim that solo is trivial for everybody and shouldn't be seriously considered a "play style" but rather something to do when you can't find a group. Heroic and Epic are the two real play styles, and considering how rarely they interact, I don't see why one should produce better rewards than the other.

You claim that offering equal rewards in heroic content will stop people from raiding. I say that some people really enjoy raiding as a play style and will continue to do so regardless.

These 2 points say it all.

Solo is very much a play style and  is one of the major ones.

Just because you can steamroll it as a heroric player doesnt make it any less .....just as i  can steam roll any heroric content and that doesnt make it any less of a progression or play style.

After you kill a mob a couple times you raid only to get loot to progress your charactor for the next target untill there is no more targets.Just as the Domini in RoK once it is killed for AA it is left up  becuase the loot sucks.If heroric content had the same rwards as raiding there is zero incentive to raid except for the achievement or AA and that is the case not only in this game...but any game that has progression based on solo/group and raid content...this is nothing new.

You think people would play more if they was to mindlessly grind heroric content?

But wait the loot would be as awesome as the best loot in game.......and as said befor it still wouldnt matter.The only people that would do it for the most part would be raiders.And all that would be on these boards is the  cxomplaints about it.Remember Nizara ..well i do.Know who did that zone  mostly ....raiders did.It dropped  the best item in game for a mage did that matter....noope, raiders was majority that did the zone.This is nothing new and  just a classic example of what woul,d happen if all gear of that type  of equal power was to drop in raid and heroric zones...only raiders would do the heroric content....but it would kill raiding content to the point of why bother.

As i said people will go with path of least resistence and will choose heroric content and steamroll through it instead of dieing 50 times over and over just learning a encounter to be able to get 2 pieces of loot every 5 days from it.

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Old 12-07-2009, 08:08 AM   #44
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[email protected] wrote:

Solo is very much a play style and  is one of the major ones.

Just because you can steamroll it as a heroric player doesnt make it any less .....just as i  can steam roll any heroric content and that doesnt make it any less of a progression or play style.

After you kill a mob a couple times you raid only to get loot to progress your charactor for the next target untill there is no more targets.Just as the Domini in RoK once it is killed for AA it is left up  becuase the loot sucks.If heroric content had the same rwards as raiding there is zero incentive to raid except for the achievement or AA and that is the case not only in this game...but any game that has progression based on solo/group and raid content...this is nothing new.

You think people would play more if they was to mindlessly grind heroric content?

But wait the loot would be as awesome as the best loot in game.......and as said befor it still wouldnt matter.The only people that would do it for the most part would be raiders.And all that would be on these boards is the  cxomplaints about it.Remember Nizara ..well i do.Know who did that zone  mostly ....raiders did.It dropped  the best item in game for a mage did that matter....noope, raiders was majority that did the zone.This is nothing new and  just a classic example of what woul,d happen if all gear of that type  of equal power was to drop in raid and heroric zones...only raiders would do the heroric content....but it would kill raiding content to the point of why bother.

As i said people will go with path of least resistence and will choose heroric content and steamroll through it instead of dieing 50 times over and over just learning a encounter to be able to get 2 pieces of loot every 5 days from it.

I claim that soloing is not a true play style not simply because it is easy, but also because the game was not designed for it. Every character in EQ2 has an adventuring class, and each of these classes is designed to fill a single role in an inter-dependent group of characters. Tanks absorb incoming damage, but rely on healers to maintain their own HP and DPS'ers to wear down the MOBs. None of these roles are meant to function solely on their own, they were built as puzzle-pieces, aspects of a whole. Because of this, solo content is fundamentally different than any other kind of content, because it must be possible to succeed with less than a complete unit. This is why solo content is trivial by design, it's simply not feasible to create content that can be challenging for each role individually, for each one is missing part of the total package that provides for a functioning entity. Because of this fact, comparing solo to heroic is simply not relevant to this discussion. Solo content can never be as challenging as content that is designed to include multiple characters in cooperation.

Your other points I have already covered in previous posts. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on them.

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Old 12-07-2009, 09:42 AM   #45
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

I claim that soloing is not a true play style not simply because it is easy, but also because the game was not designed for it.

This is utterly false.  The game may not have started out that way, but it certainly is today.  In fact, the devs continue to add more solo content.

There are plenty of people in this game that rarely group and never raid.  So what exactly is their playstyle?

Also dismissing an entire area of the game because its not YOUR preference just loses you credibility.

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Old 12-07-2009, 09:45 AM   #46
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

Your other points I have already covered in previous posts. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on them.

Everyone disagrees with you and I personally think you should play a different game.  You're not going to get what you're looking for here.

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Old 12-07-2009, 10:10 AM   #47
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The_Cheeseman wrote:

I've been thinking about the state of EQ2's two primary content tiers: single group (heroic) and multi-group (epic) and I've come to the conclusion that the current setup is probably not ideal. Right now we have very shallow heroic progression, with the majority of zones being intended as merely repeatable grinds rather than actual accomplishments. On the other hand, raiding progression is deep and complex, but the rewards completely trivialize all heroic content, making that content pointless for those who raid. This seems like a silly design choice, because it basically forces players into two separate strata:

Players who either can't or don't raid and are therefore limited to only shallow heroic progression.

Players who raid regularly, and have no real motivation to run heroic content (outside of rare, corner-case items like the Najena ring).

Whichever camp you're in, you are unable to enjoy approximately half the content in the game in the way that was intended by the designers. This of course leads to situations where raiders complete all the raid content and get bored because they find no challenge or reward in heroic content, while non-raiders complete all the heroic content, but are unable to ever participate in most of the raid content due to insufficient gear progression. The Devs are basically forced to design two separate games for two separate groups of players. This seems like a waste of resources to me.

I propose that the better solution would be to design truly deep and challenging heroic content, with item-based progression that equals raiding. In this situation, players who are unable to commit to raiding schedules could still experience the challenging encounters we associate with raiding and earn appropriate rewards that would allow them to be meaningful participants in raids when they are able to join them. Also, raiders would have an alternative means of progression, allowing them to meaningfully engage in heroic content without trivializing it, while earning rewards that are actually valuable to them.

Of course, some consideration must be made for the fact that assembling and organizing 24 people is a difficult task. Therefore, I'd suggest that progression via raiding work more quickly--raiders would have access to a larger amount of quality loot in each "tier" of content, allowing those who raid to gear-up faster than those who primarily do so via heroic content. However, the overall quality of the loot would remain equal based on the overall challenge level of the content, ensuring that while raiders could earn items faster, the end result would be approximately equal regardless of which path an individual character chose to pursue.

This entire concept hinges on SOE being capable of producing engaging heroic content that equals the challenge level of raid encounters, however. Whether the design team is up to the task is really impossible to say, since I am unaware of such an attempt ever having been made in the past. However, were it successful, I think the game would be much more enjoyable as a result.

Other games do this quite successfully.  The old, cranky, e-peens of EQ1/EQ2 would toast the devs alive should they ever try something like this.  I've come to believe that most raiders don't even like raiding.  They do it for the loot and the loot alone.  And they'll be darned if someone gets to have their shinies while actually having fun. 

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Old 12-07-2009, 10:40 AM   #48
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kcirrot wrote:

Other games do this quite successfully.  The old, cranky, e-peens of EQ1/EQ2 would toast the devs alive should they ever try something like this.  I've come to believe that most raiders don't even like raiding.  They do it for the loot and the loot alone.  And they'll be darned if someone gets to have their shinies while actually having fun. 

May I ask why you play this game then?

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Old 12-07-2009, 10:48 AM   #49
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therodge wrote:

no what here is a better idea, who here would support the complete oppisite of what was stated

Heroic zones drop legendary loot of legendary quality mostly tank and spank maybe a few small scripts with the only fabled thing being a master (chelsith CoA maidens vaults CoV OoB basically every zone before tso yada yada minus the fabled loots )

Raid zones drop Fabled  loot at Fabled quality lowest teir fabled loot= highest teir legendary and progressess up from their. to give casuals their occation raid fix drop maybe a x2 or a x4 thats fairly cake light scripts and very low teir fabled (think labs) and the rest raised up deficulty exponentially.

This is great idea, but let me ask you. 

What would be the difference between say loot dropped from the easy raid instance and the most difficult raid instances in the game?  What would be the difference between the solo treasured gear and the highest raid stuff.  Because that's the rub. 

There should be a disparity, of course, but given the small population of those who will make it to the heights, IMO it should be analogous to the following:

Say best in slot raid gear = 100%

Easy raid instances should equal = 90% of the power of the best in slot gear.

Solo gear should equal = 80% of the power of the best in slot gear

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Old 12-07-2009, 11:17 AM   #50
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glowsinthedark wrote:

I consider myself to be a light raider, have full t3 and some jewelery from WOE and my myth.  I have an SK alt, ful t2 with myth.  He has sucessfully tanked every TSO zone, except for YOS,(haven't tried it yet) and PoF (have cleared everything up to Varsoon.  The only reason that we couldn't kill varsoon is that in full T2 my crit mit is just not high enough,

I tanked Varsoon in T1 set, Fabled Epic on my SK with no particular issues.  The first time I ever killed Varsoon (on my Illy), back in November of 2008, NONE of my group had ANY crit mit at all.  Crit mit is not your problem.  I'd guess weak healing, because there most definitely is a lot of healing to be done on that fight.

Hint:  Start in the blade room, it is the harder of the three.

Pro Tip:  Jack your heat and noxious resists up as high as you can.

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Old 12-07-2009, 11:19 AM   #51
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kcirrot wrote:

Say best in slot raid gear = 100%

Easy raid instances should equal = 90% of the power of the best in slot gear.

Solo gear should equal = 80% of the power of the best in slot gear

More like about 65% for solo gear.  Solo content is cake.

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Old 12-07-2009, 11:37 AM   #52
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TSO made some dungeons require skill and not level 62 mastercrafted. Result? You've got folks running around who think you cannot do any group zones in TSO without "mythical and raid gear". Making even harder group zones is not a good idea. PoF was about as hard as they should really go IMO.
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Old 12-07-2009, 11:49 AM   #53
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Banditman wrote:

kcirrot wrote:

Say best in slot raid gear = 100%

Easy raid instances should equal = 90% of the power of the best in slot gear.

Solo gear should equal = 80% of the power of the best in slot gear

More like about 65% for solo gear.  Solo content is cake.

In raid gear or even legendary gear, yes.  In treasured gear...not so much.  I've tried it all three ways.

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Old 12-07-2009, 11:50 AM   #54
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erin wrote:

kcirrot wrote:

Other games do this quite successfully.  The old, cranky, e-peens of EQ1/EQ2 would toast the devs alive should they ever try something like this.  I've come to believe that most raiders don't even like raiding.  They do it for the loot and the loot alone.  And they'll be darned if someone gets to have their shinies while actually having fun. 

May I ask why you play this game then?

Who said I didn't raid, and that I wasn't an old, cranky, [Removed for Content]?

EDIT:  To answer your question seriously, this fight keeps coming up IMO, because the devs went back on their stated goal with EQ2.  They said originally that this game wasn't intended to be EQ1 with prettier graphics.  But many old EQ1 players have demanded it be so.

The devs need to sack up and decide what kind of game they want this to be.  Trying to be everything to everyone is silly and it's the reason for all these arguments.  The devs just need to decide if this game is going to cater to hardcore, casuals or something else entirely.  Then stick with it. 

Other games do so.  Some expect PvP in order to get the best stuff, some expect you to play the in-game economy, others try to cater to hyper-casuals.  But in so many other games, they take a side.  EQ2 doesn't.  It seems every new Producer tries to go in another direction while trying not to offend the folks they aren't catering too.  I wish they would stop.

If hardcore raiding is the expected playstyle, cool.  Just say so, and then build the game around that.  If you're trying to appeal to casual gamers, then you're going to have to have alternative paths to gain nice loot that don't involve that.

Pipe dream, I know.

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Old 12-07-2009, 04:25 PM   #55
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Banditman wrote:

glowsinthedark wrote:

I consider myself to be a light raider, have full t3 and some jewelery from WOE and my myth.  I have an SK alt, ful t2 with myth.  He has sucessfully tanked every TSO zone, except for YOS,(haven't tried it yet) and PoF (have cleared everything up to Varsoon.  The only reason that we couldn't kill varsoon is that in full T2 my crit mit is just not high enough,

I tanked Varsoon in T1 set, Fabled Epic on my SK with no particular issues.  The first time I ever killed Varsoon (on my Illy), back in November of 2008, NONE of my group had ANY crit mit at all.  Crit mit is not your problem.  I'd guess weak healing, because there most definitely is a lot of healing to be done on that fight.

Hint:  Start in the blade room, it is the harder of the three.

Pro Tip:  Jack your heat and noxious resists up as high as you can.

Crit mit only applies to raid targets. Varsoon is not a hard fight from a tanking perspective - while Varsson can hit hard, most of the damage comes from things like the curse or the blades, not strictly from his physical attacks.Where Varsoon differs from pretty much every other heroic encounter in the game is the level of coordination required to pull off. Rarely do fights require significant group movement, or adds to be controlled/burned as in the healing room.

Conversly, I could easily see the Varsoon fight scaled to x4 and maintain its difficulty, which is not something I could say about most other heroic fights. Really, Varsoon is a raid encounter scaled down to heroic levels, and thus requires a raiding approach - good group communication, proper leadership and a solid understanding the less obvious parts of combat like interrupts. Not surprisingly, this is not the sort of fight your average group will be able to pull off, and is not friendly to PUGs.

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Old 12-07-2009, 04:31 PM   #56
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feldon30 wrote:

TSO dungeons range from easy-as-can-be (Deep Forge) to pickups-never-win (Palace of Ferzul).

TSF will be inheriting all the scaling group zones in TSO. So right off the bat, in addition to the 12 new group zones, we'll have those 8 scaling group zones from TSO. 20 group zones from Day One compared to the measly 4 group zones we had in Kunark.

The popularity of Ward of Elements totally blew devs out of the water. You've got all but the top end raid guilds running WoE 2x a week to gear up alts, you've got casuals throwing together x2 groups to kill some of the names, really everyone who can clear TSO group zones is going out of their way to get into WoE raids because it's well-balanced and has a smooth progression. It really was a stroke of genius to add an x2 zone with solid loot just when guilds are struggling to recruit more than 2 1/2 groups and need content to run while they are trying to get 4 groups. WoE is IMO the best x2 zone EQ2 devs have ever done.

We know there will be a huge contested zone in TSF with 3 entrances called The Hole, ranging from level 82 to 90. Think Sanctum of Scaleborn but over twice as big.

At least as far as what types of zones the devs are doing, you can't say they don't listen to the players. The players want sprawling tank-and-spawn contested zones, lots of group instances, and at least one x2 raid zone to sink their teeth on. I'd be shocked if TSF didn't have a x2. Hopefully it's more a Ward of Elements grand slam and less of a Kurn's Tower x2 type zone.

Other than contested content, TSO has a decent progression and variety of group content.

well said, /agree

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Old 12-07-2009, 06:24 PM   #57
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Gaige wrote:

Everyone disagrees with you and I personally think you should play a different game.  You're not going to get what you're looking for here.

I do not mean to imply by my posts that I do not enjoy EQ2. I have played since launch and I still have a great time. However, I always feel that engaging in dialogue regarding ways to improve the game is healthy, and sometimes can cause people to look at their preferred hobby from a different angle, or help them understand the preferences of others. If others disagree, I fully support that. I didn't start this thread expecting a chorus of agreement, nor do I expect the development team to actually change the game to match my vision. However, I do believe that talking about alternatives is superior to just complaining, and there certainly is a lot of that on the forums (always has been, always will be).

I heartily welcome conflicting opinions--nothing interesting ever arises out of thoughtless endorement or patronization. However, I would prefer that you actually make your reasoned arguments against my idea, not simply tell me to leave. That doesn't really accomplish anything.

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Old 12-07-2009, 07:48 PM   #58
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Xalmat wrote:

The_Cheeseman wrote:

It would also be much better training for raid encounters, serving as an additional boon in that it would help casual players get some experience with raid-level scripting and encounter tactics.

Raiding and running instances isn't all that different: Pull the mob, see what it does, see what you need to do, adapt, kill. Even the final boss of Deep Forge, arguably the easiest TSO instance, has a script that needs to be learned (albeit an easy one).

The difference is that learning a raid boss could take as many as 50 pulls until you finally find a strategy that works, then repeated pulls to refine the strat, until you finally kill it. This is expecetd for raids.

PuGs, on the other hand, expect to be able to kill a mob within 1 or 2 pulls.

It's snarky, but I think this should be clarified:

PuGs of self-proclaimed "true" casuals expect to be able to kill a mob within 1 or 2 pulls in marginal gear (whatever they happened to get without giving any regard to if it was actually 'good' for their class) with who ever they happened to add to the group, and frequently with a group of less than 6. If they can't do this in the hardest heroic zone, they complain about how much the game is catering to raiders and those who buy their way into the game. 

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Old 12-07-2009, 07:55 PM   #59
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feldon30 wrote:

TSO made some dungeons require skill and not level 62 mastercrafted. Result? You've got folks running around who think you cannot do any group zones in TSO without "mythical and raid gear". Making even harder group zones is not a good idea. PoF was about as hard as they should really go IMO.

PoF was hard enough for launch.

It would have been nice to get a harder challenge futher into the expansion.  Nek4, Nizara, whatever you want to call it, just nice to get some tougher stuff thown in as the launch stuff becomes easy.

I could invision a zone similar to PoF but caked with adds requiring truely pro tanking and healing and/or actually needing crowd control.

I'd like to see a TSO instance that wasn't just 'get as many things as possible hitting the sk, then aoe dps it all down'.

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Old 12-08-2009, 02:10 AM   #60
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feldon30 wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

feldon30 wrote:

The popularity of Ward of Elements totally blew devs out of the water. You've got all but the top end raid guilds running WoE 2x a week to gear up alts, you've got casuals throwing together x2 groups to kill some of the names, really everyone who can clear TSO group zones is going out of their way to get into WoE raids because it's well-balanced and has a smooth progression. It really was a stroke of genius to add an x2 zone with solid loot just when guilds are struggling to recruit more than 2 1/2 groups and need content to run while they are trying to get 4 groups. WoE is IMO the best x2 zone EQ2 devs have ever done.

"all but top end raid guilds running WoE 2x a week"?    You really think everyone is running that zone on a regular basis? Sure some are, but surely not "all but the top end raid guilds".

I've been there a dozen times and I am bored to death with it.   Once I aquired enough shards for T2 I almost completely quit running TSO zones as well.  Grinding is not fun and entertaining.  Varsoon is the ONLY herioc mob I have not killed yet and honestly don't care if I ever do.

My point is, we all have opinions.   Nobody speaks for everyone.

So you got all your T3 gear from WoE, all the jewelry upgrades, the awesome cloak, etc. in a dozen runs of WoE? I'm thinking you are underconning your guild's progress in TSO.

Maybe it depends on what your definition of Is is.

Seriously, if you are clearing Palace or YIS, then yes, you have moved on past WoE. But for a guild that is only killing half of the original TSO raid targets, and not clearing Kurn's x2, WoE still has the goods for us (and especially alts).

I have NONE of the gear you mention.  My point was that not everyone runs zones over and over to get gear.  My best geared character is in all T2, T4 bracers and shard jewelry.   My guild does not raid at all.  Many guilds are similar.

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