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Old 09-21-2006, 06:28 AM   #1
EtoilePirate

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A surprising number of Test players are fuming with tonight's (09/20/06) patch.The addition of more crafting locations is not necessarily a bad thing.  However, the tradeskill stations are spread out inconveniently throughout the lag-prone city zones, laid out in a kind of ugly way that doesn't make much in-game sense.  Even so, they wouldn't be a bad thing, except that the crafting instances that we know and sometimes love are now completely MIA.Now -- the patch notes don't really tell us if it's intentional or not.  It could be a bug.  That's been known to happen on Test. SMILEY  But as it stands right now, it's either a bad bug or a bad design choice.1.) City zones -- Qeynos Harbor, East Freeport, etc -- are notoriously laggy.  Adding gluts of crafters won't help.2.) There are now fewer crafting stations than there were after the consolidation of the workshops.  I believe on Live servers they already complain of overcrowding.3.) The in-game logic makes no sense.  Why would I be a hard-working artisan in the furniture store?  Or on the sidewalk outside of an inn?  Why would the man in the furniture store sell me fuel for tailoring?  Why would a writ-giver hang out in a city square?4.) I used to have fun in the Dark Bargainers with the rest of Freeport.  There was camraderie on the dings and mini-dings and Innovations.4a.) Staring at the wall of a furniture store is really no more interesting than staring at the wall of a crafting instance.5.) The layouts are just really not convenient.Now, as I say -- for all I know, it's totally unintentional, in which case I reserve and reverse my emotional reaction.  But whether it was an accident or on purpose, please reconsider this!
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Old 09-21-2006, 06:37 AM   #2
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Horrible Idea on the Tradeskill instances. I don't normally complain but this is absurd. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the way it was. Don't try to butter us up by saying we should be out in the open showing our skills. This is lame. I hope this is reconsidered and it should have been something put out to the players before making this decision. Don't forget you work for us. Putting the crafting table in lag prone areas is only going to cause problems. Very unhappy customer. Please take a look at this problem.
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Old 09-21-2006, 06:43 AM   #3
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EtoilePB wrote:A surprising number of Test players are fuming with tonight's (09/20/06) patch.The addition of more crafting locations is not necessarily a bad thing.  However, the tradeskill stations are spread out inconveniently throughout the lag-prone city zones, laid out in a kind of ugly way that doesn't make much in-game sense.  Even so, they wouldn't be a bad thing, except that the crafting instances that we know and sometimes love are now completely MIA.Now -- the patch notes don't really tell us if it's intentional or not.  It could be a bug.  That's been known to happen on Test. SMILEY  But as it stands right now, it's either a bad bug or a bad design choice.1.) City zones -- Qeynos Harbor, East Freeport, etc -- are notoriously laggy.  Adding gluts of crafters won't help. agreed2.) There are now fewer crafting stations than there were after the consolidation of the workshops.  I believe on Live servers they already complain of overcrowding.  agreed3.) The in-game logic makes no sense.  Why would I be a hard-working artisan in the furniture store?  Or on the sidewalk outside of an inn?  Why would the man in the furniture store sell me fuel for tailoring?  Why would a writ-giver hang out in a city square? to make you buy crafting stations I would assume.  Most high end crafters own one anyway.4.) I used to have fun in the Dark Bargainers with the rest of Freeport.  There was camraderie on the dings and mini-dings and Innovations. agreed4a.) Staring at the wall of a furniture store is really no more interesting than staring at the wall of a crafting instance. Probably, but if it doesnt matter, then, it doesnt matter...5.) The layouts are just really not convenient. Since you dont need subs, it doesnt matter where they are really.  They seem laid out well, in areas that you would logically find them. (chem table near alchemists, loom near tailors...)Now, as I say -- for all I know, it's totally unintentional, in which case I reserve and reverse my emotional reaction.  But whether it was an accident or on purpose, please reconsider this!
*** Crafting: No Longer Underground! *** - Have you ever wondered why poor crafters have always been forced to forge their creations in the damp, dark reaches of Norrath? Blame the gnomes! - Tradeskillers will now find crafting stations placed throughout their home cities. - Now you can display your skill to all your potential customers, without having to work in cramped quarters.
Looks like it means "no longer underground" meaing "no longer instances underground"

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Old 09-21-2006, 06:58 AM   #4
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It really has to be a bug.  Otherwise it is the most ill-conceived concept ever tested.

It's awful now.  Why follow up a great GU with one that is this bad?

 

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Old 09-21-2006, 07:12 AM   #5
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I can't conceive why they would have made a Crafting Trainer who gets you started and sells all your books and put all the writ givers and Profession Qeust fellows inside the TS instances if they were just going to remove them.

On the other hand, there was a post noting that most of Antonica had disappeared, so I'm hoping it's a bug.

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Old 09-21-2006, 07:20 AM   #6
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Silverpaws wrote:


EtoilePB wrote:

3.) The in-game logic makes no sense.  Why would I be a hard-working artisan in the furniture store?  Or on the sidewalk outside of an inn?  Why would the man in the furniture store sell me fuel for tailoring?  Why would a writ-giver hang out in a city square? to make you buy crafting stations I would assume.  Most high end crafters own one anyway.

Which also would mean being required to be in a level 25+ guild to craft pristine items (minimum guild level requirement to purchase the fully-functional tables) - which in turn makes a GL 25 requirement to do crafting writs. I can't believe that's intended.

5.) The layouts are just really not convenient. Since you dont need subs, it doesnt matter where they are really.  They seem laid out well, in areas that you would logically find them. (chem table near alchemists, loom near tailors...)

Carpenter timed writs often have you make items at more than one crafting station. It's not just a matter of subs or no-subs - if a timed writ asks for items from multiple tables, you now have to run across town to complete the order, with a timer going. Again - doubt that's intended.

 

No, I'd have to say that removing the tradeskill instances doesn't make any sense. It seems to create a number of problems, without solving any obvious ones. There was nothing in tonight's patch notes saying that instances were removed. For now then, I'm assuming it's a bug, in much the same way that large portions of Antonica going missing are also a bug.  SMILEY

Having the option to craft out in the city is very nice. Some of the locations may be weird, yes, but the idea is alright. But, and especially when it comes to rush order writs, forcing crafting to be done in a non-centralized location like the instances is just not a good idea, and I have a hard time believing that it's by design choice.








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Old 09-21-2006, 07:20 AM   #7
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Call me conspiracy theorists but...With previous expansion they removed specialized TS instances... We have an upcoming expansion, now they removing filled up many TS zones to spare more space for the expansions. No matter or what if they remove more instances, it will save more server space. TS instance load might be huge to maintain...I hope it is a bug, but somewhere in my mind says it is not a bug or "untought" development decision.

Message Edited by selch on 09-20-2006 08:22 PM

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Old 09-21-2006, 07:32 AM   #8
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 I already lag in city zones... I like to craft and do writs.... If you do this Devs Cancel my accounts I will not pay to lag.
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Old 09-21-2006, 07:45 AM   #9
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Thins like this make you wonder if SOE's devs actually think, from the sounds of it, this is a horrible Update and needs to be removed. Lag is the enemy when crafting, it can make you miss a counter, or worse yet, make you use the wrong counter.
 
Please SOE, remove this update and rethink it before trying something this drastic. (makes me glad I don't play test)
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Old 09-21-2006, 07:52 AM   #10
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I agree this is a poorly planned update. It contributes to lag in the cities ( didn't they "fix" that in the last patch and now they want to break it??).

But worse -- it is just plain silly. Whoever saw a tradeskill instance on a city street or in a store? What is wrong with just reactivating some of the old tradeskill instances??

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Old 09-21-2006, 07:56 AM   #11
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I'm not likeing the removal also.I don't like haveing to run to differnt stations, and to differnt folks for fuels. Don't like haveing to go back to a central place for writs and/or the seeking a proffesion quest line.I'm trying to keep a open mind about this. But with out some type of improvment, I'm not going to be happy.Oh well gives me a chance to gain tradeskill vitality again.Unhappy Camper...
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Old 09-21-2006, 01:46 PM   #12
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I agree totally with the orginal poster.  The crafting instances are a place that can have community.
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Old 09-21-2006, 03:45 PM   #13
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The removal of the tradeskill instances is an extremely bad idea but it fits in with how crafting is seen in this game nowperhaps soe should get rid of something else than the instances like some developers perhaps that would help the game
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Old 09-21-2006, 03:48 PM   #14
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I am hoping that this is a REALLLLLLY bad Bug.  I can barely  MOVE in the city zones at night and weekends.  I LOVE my crafting and was sad to see that my instances were cut down and had to deal with that lag.  I cant imagine having to deal with City lag as well...  Please....  if this is a bug, let usknow....  If it is working as intended.....  WHAT are your plans?  Help us understand why????  *sniffles*
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Old 09-21-2006, 03:48 PM   #15
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Well first of all I would hold off a little on calling this a terrible update until one of the devs makes an official statement on whether ot not the Crafting instances are gone or if it is a bug. From the notes I would say it is probalby a bug and the new devices in the city is something they are adding but you will still be able to craft in the instances.
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Old 09-21-2006, 04:15 PM   #16
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I thought of another possibility. Unless they do something carved into the tree, or a tradeskill building etc, I can't see how they would make indoor tradeskill instances in Kelethin. Based on that, and assumeing they want to make it so newbie life is similar wherever you start out, I can see this as a move to turn Freeport and Qeynos into the same style as Kelethin could be - i.e. all the tradeskill equipment scattered around the platforms. Has anyone looked at either of the isles, have those work areas moved out into the camp clearing as well?What I've missed most, is not just the ease of crafting close to my home and bank-vault, but the loss of easy access to the broker.

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Old 09-21-2006, 06:11 PM   #17
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AnnMarieR wrote:

What I've missed most, is not just the ease of crafting close to my home and bank-vault, but the loss of easy access to the broker.

Message Edited by AnnMarieR on 09-21-200601:19 PM


This is a very valid point. While I try not to have to use the broker to purchase any raws, it was nice to have if I was making an item out of my current tier (for an alt or an order) and just needed to grab a few ashen roots etc to complete the order.

As to the instances disappearing, Im guessing its a bug. This change IMO is an attempt to address the current lag in the TS instances. It serves no purpose simply moving everyone somewhere else with even more people in the zone.

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Old 09-21-2006, 06:43 PM   #18
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I have to contribute here, too...

I also hope they do NOT intend on taking crafting zones out of the game, and forcing people to craft in the main cities/zones.  That would just be the worst idea I have ever heard.  And the suggestion of making people buy guild level 25 crafting stations is NOT an acceptable alternative. Those crafting stations cost, if I recall correctly, well over a half a million status points and reoughly a plat each! For my carpenter, I'd need to buy THREE of those (a woodworking table, a loom, and a forge). Plus the crafting station for my provisioner alt, and the ones for my sage alt.  I'm sorry, but spending MILLIONS of status points so I can effectively avoid the massive lag I already get when in the main zones, is just more of that stuff that comes out the back end of a bull.

From a crafter standpoint: The lag is already horrible in those zones, with people dueling and emoting each other (or even just standing around chatting). I can only imagine how much worse it will be when you throw in people crafting -- with the animations the characters do when crafting, the animations of the crafting stations, the combat spam we'd get every time someone misses a reactive (which will likely be more frequent with the increased lag), not to mention the absurd idea of trying to do timed writs that require multiple stations. This is just (for lack of a better word) stupid.

From a non-crafter standpoint: The lag is so bad in Longshadow Alley, Qeynos Harbor and Willow wood, just to name a few zones, that I already ofentimes lag and wind up running into the side of a building or such.  And I have a pretty nice computer compared to a lot of people I know in my guild/friends/etc. Adding all those displaced crafters into these already lag infested zones is going to make it PAINFUL getting anywhere. Fortunately, most non-crafters will have little reason to 'hang out' in those zones, but that doesn't justify moving crafting stations there -- the fact is that they do hang out in those zones, for whatever reason. It just makes the lag expotentially worse when anyone is forced to venture through those zones to get from point A to point B.

For the love of , DON'T REMOVE CRAFTING INSTANCES!

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Old 09-21-2006, 06:49 PM   #19
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As I was looking around Test last night, I became pretty sure that the removal of the TS instances was not a bug. The TS instances were not just inaccessible, they were removed and as was the TS trainer beside them too.  The TS trainer, work order giver, rush order giver and one other TS quest giver were placed in locations in the city zones. Clip boards for starting writs were placed by each new TS area in the city zones.  Also re-reading the patch notes for 28a, it does sound like they are removing basement TS areas.
 
I agree that lag in the city zones is going to make tradeskilling difficult. Even a little lag makes it very difficult to respond to events with the correct counters or to recover from critical failures. If we have to fight both the RNG and lag, tradeskilling is going to be an exercise in frustration having nothing to do with the skill of the crafter.
 
On the other hand, I noticed there are some cellar doors similar to the old TS instances that are scattered through the city zones. What is even more mysterious is that some of them are labeled if you run your cursor over them. I am not sure whether or not they were there before this patch. You cant get into them, but why label them if they will not have a purpose at some point.
  • In Elddar Grove, there is a cellar door labeled "In Range Basement - no admittance"  near the bowyers shop.
  • In NQ, there is a cellar door labeled "Ironforge Workshop - no admittance" by the Call to Arms (this is a different location that the previous Ironforge Exchange TS instance that has been removed).
  • In NQ, there is another cellar door labeled "Celestial Watch Meeting Hall - no admittance" in back of the building next to the Clothspinners shop.
  • There are other similar unlabeled cellar doors near the mage's tower in SQ and near the castle docks in NQ

If these aren't intended to become TS instances, there is no reason the dev's could offer some TS instances either in the city or replace the ones in the villages as options for those tradeskillers that prefer them or need them to get away from city lag.

Message Edited by Heattanu on 09-21-2006 07:49 AM

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Old 09-21-2006, 07:09 PM   #20
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Hmm interesting, I missed those SMILEY. Of course, after spending half my evening accidentally crashing because I couldn't control my urges to look at my persona/faction page, I gave up and hung out in Antonica to kill the scarecrow king (and a whole lot of scarecrows and gnolls lol).
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Old 09-21-2006, 07:13 PM   #21
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I have to agree with the many opinions posted here.  Please put the crafting instances back in.  Not only are the instances great places to meet other crafters, but they are quaint little locations that I personally love.  Also, I think trying to craft out in the 'open' would be quite distracting.  I, for one, do not wish to have all kinds of things spamming across my screen, nor do I wish to have the duel lag if someone decides to duel near me.
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Old 09-21-2006, 07:24 PM   #22
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/agreeBring back things as they were before, and just put the crafting trainers IN the TS instance. Come on, can't you guys be serious? Why are you spending so much time and efforts in developping such stupid changes while gamers are asking for something else?I've been looking at the Work Orders giver, the Rush Orders giver, the Tradeskill Trainer in South Qeynos and they just look ridiculous, standing where they have nothing to do, juste like vegetables aligned in a garden!

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Old 09-21-2006, 07:24 PM   #23
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Those instances are used in the betrayal quest -- specifically, Qeynos to Freeport.  There are equivalent ones in  Freeport for Freeport to Qeynos


Heattanu wrote:
On the other hand, I noticed there are some cellar doors similar to the old TS instances that are scattered through the city zones. What is even more mysterious is that some of them are labeled if you run your cursor over them. I am not sure whether or not they were there before this patch. You cant get into them, but why label them if they will not have a purpose at some point.
  • In Elddar Grove, there is a cellar door labeled "In Range Basement - no admittance"  near the bowyers shop.
  • In NQ, there is a cellar door labeled "Ironforge Workshop - no admittance" by the Call to Arms (this is a different location that the previous Ironforge Exchange TS instance that has been removed).
  • In NQ, there is another cellar door labeled "Celestial Watch Meeting Hall - no admittance" in back of the building next to the Clothspinners shop.
  • There are other similar unlabeled cellar doors near the mage's tower in SQ and near the castle docks in NQ

Message Edited by Heattanu on 09-21-2006 07:49 AM


 

Message Edited by Loredena on 09-21-2006 08:26 AM

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Old 09-21-2006, 07:25 PM   #24
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Re: "In Range Basement" and such... I doubt those are crafting instances, considering that there's 5 of them that match up with the five writ-giving factions (they're even in the correct towns).Add my voice to the chorus of "what were you thinking??" if there's no instances to do writs in. Carpenters need, what, four different tradeskill tables? (sawhorse = most stuff, forge = lights, loom = rugs, workbench = vases). Weaponsmiths need the forge and the loom. Even if they place a "writ pickup table" next to every station, some crafts will be at a serious disadvantage when doing writs.Also, what of heavily lagged zones like Willow Wood? Do you get a longer writ timer there? Or a bonus to success chance to offset the lag?This just seems rather... underconsidered... to me. Maybe not quite as bad as the T6-harvests-in-Tenebrous-Tangle fiasco that was shot down due to player feedback, but this idea needs either (1) some serious 'splaining, especially WRT timed writs, or (2) a knife in the back. (Poisoned, of course. My alchemist will get right on it...)
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Old 09-21-2006, 07:27 PM   #25
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Heattanu wrote:
As I was looking around Test last night, I became pretty sure that the removal of the TS instances was not a bug. The TS instances were not just inaccessible, they were removed and as was the TS trainer beside them too.  The TS trainer, work order giver, rush order giver and one other TS quest giver were placed in locations in the city zones. Clip boards for starting writs were placed by each new TS area in the city zones.  Also re-reading the patch notes for 28a, it does sound like they are removing basement TS areas.
 
I agree that lag in the city zones is going to make tradeskilling difficult. Even a little lag makes it very difficult to respond to events with the correct counters or to recover from critical failures. If we have to fight both the RNG and lag, tradeskilling is going to be an exercise in frustration having nothing to do with the skill of the crafter.
 
On the other hand, I noticed there are some cellar doors similar to the old TS instances that are scattered through the city zones. What is even more mysterious is that some of them are labeled if you run your cursor over them. I am not sure whether or not they were there before this patch. You cant get into them, but why label them if they will not have a purpose at some point.
  • In Elddar Grove, there is a cellar door labeled "In Range Basement - no admittance"  near the bowyers shop.
  • In NQ, there is a cellar door labeled "Ironforge Workshop - no admittance" by the Call to Arms (this is a different location that the previous Ironforge Exchange TS instance that has been removed).
  • In NQ, there is another cellar door labeled "Celestial Watch Meeting Hall - no admittance" in back of the building next to the Clothspinners shop.
  • There are other similar unlabeled cellar doors near the mage's tower in SQ and near the castle docks in NQ

If these aren't intended to become TS instances, there is no reason the dev's could offer some TS instances either in the city or replace the ones in the villages as options for those tradeskillers that prefer them or need them to get away from city lag.

Message Edited by Heattanu on 09-21-2006 07:49 AM



those are instances for betrayal faction quests.
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Old 09-21-2006, 07:27 PM   #26
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As long timer tradeskiller, I fail to understand lag issues... First, "As an example of Willow wood has more lag than any city zones in live, it is way crowded from all races picking there for some reason"Second, "Lag inside TS instance with 30 people in same zone in  a little area seeing all others graphics / models / textures / pets is more than any city zones" with exception of Qeynos Harbor on both examples as being a travel hub (ofcourse)Yes, it was nice to have everything together, however, I don't accept lag as an excuse from my part.
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Old 09-21-2006, 07:41 PM   #27
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Snce this is intentional, I am assuming that all pets, horses, and carpets will be removed from these city zones to reduce the lag and the problems with blockage?  I am also going to assume that the tradeskill tables for sale by the city merchants will have their guild requirements removed and the status lowered?  By the same token, I assume that all the exploited purchases of the tradeskill tables will be removed from the players who bought them when you sent the broken city merchants to live a few patches back?

I know that 3 chemistry tables, a bunch of NPCs and furniture in the little alchemist shop in SQ will be unusuable if you add players, pets, horses, and carpets.  From the looks of the other locations,  it will be the same.

Oh, and placement of the engraving desks in the Mage tower?  Poor.  Nice to know if you back up a centimeter, you are ported to another floor, that really helps with writs.

This is a poor design choice, I think we need to be told why this is necessary because otherwise it just seems to be done for no good reason except to be punative to people who craft and/or are not members of 25+ rated guilds with a ton of plat and status to throw around.

This deserves a public comment from a dev, it is a major, and destructive, change to tradeskilling, right on the heels of a GU that finally helped tradeskillers.

 

Message Edited by ZeyGnome on 09-21-2006 10:42 AM

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Old 09-21-2006, 07:54 PM   #28
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Duel spam lag. (Wasn't in-tradeskill-zone dueling disabled to stop this sort of griefing of tradeskillers?)Horse/carpet-related lag. No mounts in the tradeskill zones. I play in 3rd person all the time (seeing the numbers fly off the forge is nice), so horses running around behind me could hurt.General zone-related lag... I see more lag with 10 people in the Nettleville bank than I do with 10 people in the Nettleville crafting zone's broker area. i.e. the first is significant, if not game-breaking, the second barely noticable.Additional broker lag, assuming the brokers are standing about in the starter villages now, too... 10 people brokering in the Elusive Commonwealth plus 10 people banking in Nettleville is much less lag than 20 people all milling about in one zone. (I haven't logged into test since the changes, since I heard that half the windows are crashing the game, so I don't know if the brokers moved out or disappeared.)But, you are correct in that lag is only 10% of the issue. I've got a decent system, it probably won't even affect me, personally. But I have friends who play the game with 1GB RAM, and who are (rightfully) more worried about upgrading their kids' wardrobes to clothes that fit than in buying more RAM and a niftier video card to play a game.Timed writs are issue #1, timed writs are issue #2 SMILEY, loss of some of the tradeskill community's camaraderie is #3 (we don't have groups, tradeskilling is all solo. Getting us together in one place helps... a "grats" from a tailor when I make level on my woodworker is nice to hear.) Lag is #4.The only possible good I can see of this is it might shame one or two of the AFK-crafters into quitting if it's more than just two or three other crafters watching them act like doofuses. (You know the ones, stand in front of the alchemy table for hours at a time, but never counter a single damage-dealing reaction... just hit "start" every 2 minutes and go back to watching American Idol.)
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Old 09-21-2006, 07:56 PM   #29
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selch wrote:
As long timer tradeskiller, I fail to understand lag issues...

First, "As an example of Willow wood has more lag than any city zones in live, it is way crowded from all races picking there for some reason"

Second, "Lag inside TS instance with 30 people in same zone in  a little area seeing all others graphics / models / textures / pets is more than any city zones"
with exception of Qeynos Harbor on both examples as being a travel hub (ofcourse)

Yes, it was nice to have everything together, however, I don't accept lag as an excuse from my part.


As a long time crafter myself (since Nov 04) I am less concerned about the lag while crafting and more concerned about the lag that will be created simply traversing through these zones. Some of them were bad enough before, but adding a bunch of crafters to the mix doesnt seem to me to be helping the situation.

To those running top of the line rigs who never have lag, please keep in mind that not everyone has an uber machine and this game has to be playable by all who meet the minimum specs.

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Old 09-21-2006, 08:07 PM   #30
Loredena

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Join Date: Nov 2004
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There's also an increased possibility of pet griefing, whether intentional or not -- in some of the smaller buildings, it would be very easy for a caster's pet to block the doorway, preventing crafters from entering and exiting.  I know my conjurer has gotten blocked by her own pet more then once when visiting the mender in some of the smaller huts.   Imagine this when running between stations on a timed writ?  Even if accidental, it would be upsetting.
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