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Old 04-10-2006, 05:12 PM   #1
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I currently play a level 48 Warlock on the Mistmoore server. 
 
I've been reading these forums quite a bit as of late, and it seems to be a popular opinion the high end Warlock is a tad underpowered in a raid setting.  I've gathered this is mainly due to the fact most raids focus on single mobs, and the Warlock shines when using our AE spells.
 
Might it be a possible solution to implement more raids that are based around grouped encounter based mobs?  Would this offer a possible solution to balancing the playing field between the heavy hitting single target classes and the AE folks?
 
 
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Old 04-10-2006, 06:18 PM   #2
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currently, there are a number of multiple mob raid encounters....PPTR has huge amounts of trash - warlocks can shine in the trash clearing, but are often outdistanced by conjurers due to our long cast times, and 'target not alive ' messages, while their pets dont suffer from those limitations. - but if we do manage to get off more than 1-2 aoe's, we're probably dead.  T7 however, is limited on this kind of 8-16 mob trash groups.

Encounters [Removed for Content] 3 mobs (doom trio, goliathan, etc) generally don't allow us to air out our aoe's enough to pull ahead on the dps charts....

 

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Old 04-10-2006, 08:17 PM   #3
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Well its not that warlocks are really gimped on dps even on single targets its very possible to be doing 1200 dps every fight. The real issue with warlocks is that, you simply require more management than other dps classes, and it takes a greater skilled warlock to achieve the same results as any other dps class because of very complicated cast orders, and ice thin aggro control. Tho with adept 3's its alot easier to control aggro, than it is with all masters or using lower tiered spells of the really bad ones. You will do slightly less dps, but have alot more control over your aggro.
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Old 04-10-2006, 09:14 PM   #4
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Hennyo wrote:Well its not that warlocks are really gimped on dps even on single targets its very possible to be doing 1200 dps every fight. The real issue with warlocks is that, you simply require more management than other dps classes, and it takes a greater skilled warlock to achieve the same results as any other dps class because of very complicated cast orders, and ice thin aggro control. Tho with adept 3's its alot easier to control aggro, than it is with all masters or using lower tiered spells of the really bad ones. You will do slightly less dps, but have alot more control over your aggro.

It is not possible to achieve this kind of DPS on a single target mob without using NON-single target spells. There are many situations where you can't use these spells (e.g. Apocalypse or Dark Infestation) which will dramatically lower your DPS.

 

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Old 04-10-2006, 10:51 PM   #5
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You won't be #1 in DPS on a raid in most cases.  You will still be in the top 6 - unless you just stop casting for some reason.  That still counts for a lot of damage.  The only classes capable of consistently coming out on top right now - on raids - are the Summoner classes ... and I guarantee - at some point - they (or rather - their pets) are going to get some kind of reduction just like Rangers did and just like all the other classes get at some point when things become unbalanced.Bottom line is most raids will be glad to have you along ... I've never been shut out of a raid for not doing enough damage.  I'm sorry that some people here seem to think we are worthless.   We are still a sorcerer class and we still trade top spots with only a few other classes.  Nearly any group I've been in is glad to have me.
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Old 04-10-2006, 11:20 PM   #6
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Hi there, I"m a very newbie Warlock, my main is a lvl 70 paladin.  My particular guild, while we have the numbers for t7 raids, do not have the dps to pull it off (too many tanks).  The theme that comes off time and time again is our need to ranged dps.  I often see the ground littered with up-close dps classes especially when there is a mis-time in the aoe call.  I'm hoping that my warlock will be able to contribute to the DPS we badly need, without eating dirt that the other classes end up doing.
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Old 04-10-2006, 11:40 PM   #7
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Old 04-11-2006, 02:22 AM   #8
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:smileywink: hmm, we need those too, trade you an overconfident guardian and a mouthy bruiser for a illusionist and a conjuror!
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Old 04-11-2006, 03:17 AM   #9
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Sorry to temporarily hijack this, but I was wondering if other Warlocks in raids keep their debuffs cycled and still pull off T1 dps (on named T7 mobs)?  Are our debuffs really worth casting?

I haven't ran my parser too much, but it does seem I lose a slight, not overly significant amount of dps when I keep my debuffs cycled.

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Old 04-11-2006, 04:00 AM   #10
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Fat T wrote:

Sorry to temporarily hijack this, but I was wondering if other Warlocks in raids keep their debuffs cycled and still pull off T1 dps (on named T7 mobs)?  Are our debuffs really worth casting?

I haven't ran my parser too much, but it does seem I lose a slight, not overly significant amount of dps when I keep my debuffs cycled.


only ones i ever cast are the str/int debuff(which is about 40% of the time) and the poison/disease AE debuff(all the time)
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Old 04-11-2006, 10:54 AM   #11
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I afraid of a lot trash mobs RAID. Cause no one can hold a warlock agroo generation ratio. But I think even we are not tier 1 DPS we do a good amount of damage.

The problem I see is that our class is unbalanced. We have no good agroo management system. Wizzards have contusion, contusion works on a single mob. Soo contusion is nice for them cause they are especialist of single mobs. We have contusion too, and it's nice to help tank to keep agroo. But We do not have NOTHING to reduce agroo on group of mobs, and that's our especiality.

I see how we are worser and worser on single mobs, and we are "too good" on grouped mobs. So we'll be useless on single mobs encounters and no one wi'll be able to hold agroo from grouped mobs when we figth.

That's not the first time we speak about that. But I see that's will be our future.

We should have some kind of group agroo management system and we should do more damage on our single target spells. That's all. And of course we should have more utility spells. Cause now we are not the top DPS class it's not fair we are the less util class. We should have some equivalent spell like wizzards "evac" or necro FD or conjurors teleport. 

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Old 04-11-2006, 05:18 PM   #12
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Sorry to temporarily hijack this, but I was wondering if other Warlocks in raids keep their debuffs cycled and still pull off T1 dps (on named T7 mobs)?  Are our debuffs really worth casting?"
The slow recast timers on nukes makes this important, and also to keep aggro low, you will surely end up dead often if you dont start encounters by debuff and even dot's. I keep debuffs and small DoT's going while single target nukes are on timer, along with Aura of Nihilty all the time and are only out DPS'd by summoners and wiz and some dps tanks on occassions. The AE encounters are tricky because you get aggro very easily and need to use de-aggro moves like Concussive a lot more, and also get in close to  be really effective, something that isn't possible on a lot of hard raid mobs. PPtR is a Warlock feast, I often do 2k+ dps on trash mobs thanks to Rift and Chaostorm.
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Old 04-11-2006, 06:34 PM   #13
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Ah well if I had to read those boards more I would start to believe templars do more dps then warlocks. Lol
 
Realy what have you been smoking ? On my raids with my warlock I parse consistly top3 and number one on AE encounters. The only moment rangers/assassin beat me on single target is when they do not have to joust or have their big attacks up. Our wizards come close to me and beat me now and then. I am better equipped then our wizards. All I am saying is that we are T1 dps. We are not gimped. I don't know why poeple keep saying htat.
 
Now you are gonna come with, well your assassin/ranger sucks ... Well fine stay blind and don't accept that it might be that you suck at playing your warlock. Enough said. I am just sick of seeing people saying warlocks suck and getting other classes nerfed. Casters have it very good in this expansion, their dps is pretty nice and the gear drops are very well designed. So what do you want more ? THE BIG I WIN BUTTON RANGERS HAD IN DOF ?
 
It still happens that people say holy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] when I cast an AE in raid while they are parsing. I still want to see another class burst like that and do some serious damage like that. The potental is there. You can not deny it. The numbers are there. The way you handle that dps output is called skill. If you don't have the skill to keep AE aggro from you, you might as well go play some low AE dps class. Like templars. Warlocks have some very well thought spells that give tons of damamge like our dark infestation spell. It's our choice to cast it at start, where it will matter the mobs, or debuff the mob first and loose precious proc opportunities. All I am saying is that when I am not paying attention I do around 600-700dps.  This is by just spamming some buttons at random. Any 10year old kid can do that. But adding 500dps on that to realy get the T1 dps requires some thought on spell casting order. It also require experience with fight duration. On long fights you'll have another kind of spell casting then on short fights. AE fights are a totaly other way of casting hten single target fights. And so on and so on. THERE IS NO I WIN MACRO FOR WARLOCKS. But there are skilled warlocks who win the dps fight more often then loose it.
 
Thx for reading.
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Old 04-11-2006, 07:22 PM   #14
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Hi, it's the paladin turned warlock again.

If you can, get yourself in a group with a Paladin (insist on it :smileywinkSMILEY

We have a wonderful spell called amends... it takes 41% of your hate (M1) and transfers it to the paladin.  This doesn't allow you to go wild in a raid... but does give you some added space.

In group settings I always MT with my paladin... and when I get a warlock I tell them to go wild... and they do... and they never get agro... and they love me!

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Old 04-11-2006, 07:39 PM   #15
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pharacyde wrote:
 
Now you are gonna come with, well your assassin/ranger sucks ... Well fine stay blind and don't accept that it might be that you suck at playing your warlock. Enough said. 

Thats a pretty wild accusation.  You need to realize that a LOT of the people who are upset with the warlock at upper tiers and in raids are die hards.  we've been here since launch, thru broken periods you missed, (noting your reg date) thru fixes, uber godly proccing status, uber nerfdom, and back again.  Many of us were not happy and have rolled alts, many have stuck with the warlock.  Personally, warlock was always my #1 character, thru thick and thin...and is still my main raiding character.  But no, i'm not pleased with our damage output vs our survivability... and our lack of utility.  while we're doing fine in comparison to other t1 classes, many t2 classes are eclipsing us, and it's NOT just the occasional situational encounter.  It's pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] consistent. 

T1 should ALWAYS be T1.  Situationally, the top dps should fluctuate between the four t1 classes.  Situationally, i'd be fine if some t2 dps classes approached or met our dps output, but it should NOT ever be exceeded by a t2 player (assuming similar skill/gear levels.)

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Old 04-11-2006, 08:25 PM   #16
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sammcduff wrote:

Hi, it's the paladin turned warlock again.

If you can, get yourself in a group with a Paladin (insist on it :smileywinkSMILEY

We have a wonderful spell called amends... it takes 41% of your hate (M1) and transfers it to the paladin.  This doesn't allow you to go wild in a raid... but does give you some added space.

In group settings I always MT with my paladin... and when I get a warlock I tell them to go wild... and they do... and they never get agro... and they love me!




again in group settings amends in nice but in raid settings if i had amends on me and i was told to go wild...you would be dead in a heartbeat :smileywink: trust me its happened before and the pally was like [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that I'm not dying again and never gave me it again :smileysad:
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Old 04-11-2006, 10:41 PM   #17
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Bad Paladin... seriously, that's the reason why we get overlooked by raids.

Playing this way is always a bit tricky... the MT still needs to stay 59% ahead of you... and that's having the paly do nothing.  My thoughts is, while we are able to do decent DPS, like a warlock we are AE dps oriented, I still think that warlocks full out can out dps themselves toned down and the paly pretending to dps... which means the paly is there to buff the MT (we add 400 mit and 40% something avoidance), rez, and keep the warlock alive... and toss in heals and damage without pulling agro.

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Old 04-16-2006, 09:32 PM   #18
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Pharacyde is correct. I'm in the best raid guild on Mistmoore (Static) and I can easily get Tier 1 dps on single target in raids. And that's not because other dps in my guild have crap gear or don't know how to play their class. I just cast my 2 debuffs, then dots and pet. Then nukes with a deaggro here and there so I don't get pwned. Only one conjuror can easily beat me in dps, but he also gets like 4 times as many critical hits as I do.For AA lines I went wis (freehand sorcery and the passive % increase) and str (critical % increase). I tried agi + str but I didn't like it so respecced back to wis.And yes, in groups it's awesome to have paladin as MT. Full out AE is a beatiful sight!
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Old 04-17-2006, 06:44 AM   #19
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Underpowered? Heh - warlock in our guild consistently puts up 4k DPS at level 64. Fighting the trash mobs in the nest he has parsed over 8000 dps. You read right, 8000 dps. He dies a lot, but the 8k fight he did not - none of the mobs made it to him.

A responsible warlock who doesnt want to pull aggro like an electro-magnet would prolly do a lot less - but put a warlock in the right group and ba-dam! You guys arent t1 - you are in a class by yourself.

 

 

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Old 04-17-2006, 06:59 AM   #20
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Problem is trash mobs are our speciality ... single target Named mobs we drop down the list.
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Old 04-17-2006, 10:43 AM   #21
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im out of here ! ! GL on the powerwhiner forum !  !

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Old 04-17-2006, 11:51 AM   #22
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omg omg, theres a spell check button.  please use it before ever posting on a forum again
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Old 04-17-2006, 01:40 PM   #23
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Dang...there should be a disclaimer on that post. I think I just lost 5 IQ points...and they're getting pretty valuable now, I don't have many left!  :smileysad:
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Old 04-17-2006, 01:56 PM   #24
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yeah, I am still trying to stop the blood flow from my left eye.  Got the right one stopped finally, but it took 2 qtips,  a gauze pad, and 4 inches of duct tape. 
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Old 04-20-2006, 01:37 AM   #25
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Guys look, honestly on raid you can be out DPSed by "tier 2" classes strictly based on the fact that as compared to the t2 classes you guys are "shotgun" DPS. As a necro I have fast casting low dmg, low pwr cost spells, allowing me to sustain basically the same DPS the whole fight, T1 DPS on the other hand has large dmg longer recast spells that means the longer the fight goes, the better T2 starts looking.  My largest non-master strike spell I get is around 1600 dmg at M1 compare that to your largest dmg nukes. No comparison.
 
 
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Old 04-20-2006, 02:35 AM   #26
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Vamms A'bashin wrote:
Guys look, honestly on raid you can be out DPSed by "tier 2" classes strictly based on the fact that as compared to the t2 classes you guys are "shotgun" DPS. As a necro I have fast casting low dmg, low pwr cost spells, allowing me to sustain basically the same DPS the whole fight, T1 DPS on the other hand has large dmg longer recast spells that means the longer the fight goes, the better T2 starts looking.  My largest non-master strike spell I get is around 1600 dmg at M1 compare that to your largest dmg nukes. No comparison.
 
 
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since when?  warlocks have always been long term sustainable damage.  this burst damage crap that some of you take about is bs.    And lets be honest...its not just long fights or raids. It's a consistent parse of 1.5 to 2x the damage of most of the t1 dps classes. 

One of the two following statements MUST be true....

Summoners are overpowered-

or

Sorcerors and Predators are underpowered.

Now...  seeing as how the most recent dev fixes went in  affecting proc rates on predators, and previously all sorceror procs have been nerfed to hell and back, that leads me to believe (stupid as it seems) that the devs have us where they want us, and that its summoners who need to be nerfed to bring them into line...

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Old 04-20-2006, 11:46 AM   #27
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I do not see nefer is the solution. I think we should be fixed. Not Summoners be neferd. That's IMHO

 

 

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Old 04-20-2006, 12:53 PM   #28
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I agree. I'd much rather have beneficial fixes applied to our class.  But lets be realistic....we've already had all the fixes we're gonna get.  and their net results were to nerf the hell out of our class. 

Now that we've been nerfed, and rangers have been nerfed, they finally have t1 dps classes where they want us. 

 

This has created the imbalance we see today.  The only way for soe to act now is to nerf summoners similarly, to achieve a relative balance. 

IF they were going to do a beneficial, comprehensive fix to t1 dps classes, they would have done it already.  It's not going to happen.  As such, it's time for the summoners to get their abilities nerfed to bring them into line now.

So rather than the summoners flaming the warlocks for asking for nerfs, why don't the summoners champion our cause?  Few of them have.  Many have accepted the fact that a nerf is incoming.  The ones who sneer and take the high and mighty attitudes  are the ones that are fueling this dispute.

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Old 04-20-2006, 05:21 PM   #29
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Ranger here (with a Warlock alt - be gentle pls).

I don't see them adding DPS to the T1 classes that are not quite up there with the other classes that seem to be over-performing. That would add too much extra damage across a raid / group and require mobs at all levels to be adjusted up in difficuly.

Adjusting one or two classes down is way easier than adjusting 3 or 4 up and then having to rebalance all the mobs in game to match the new (higher) DPS of a group or raid. And if you are only detuning one or two classes by 100 to 200 DPS, unless the raid force was biased toward those classes, it has a lower impact on the raid outcome.

It looks to me like SoE have quite a few of the 'T1' classes where they want them. I'm guessing future changes will be to overperforming 'T2' and 'T3' classes. And given the variability in group makeups, player skill, spell / CA levels etc etc, it's not an easy job to tune it all in. From a Ranger PoV, there's literally hundreds of DPS difference in a good raid group to a bad one for me.

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Old 04-21-2006, 02:11 PM   #30
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I agree it's easier to nerf 2 classes than empower 4.

But They changed a LOT ALL classes in the revamp. So they can change these 4 classes and let everybody happy.

It's really ease to SOE see with classes are nicer and with ones sucks.

the classes with more active players are the ones who rocks. And Now the fact is that there is a huge amount of Summoners, and a Few amount of Warlocks.

There are a lot of Wizzards and few warlocks... Why? Cause Warlocks are not a TOP class.

Most encounters are designed to be versus only one mob. And We are a AE expecialist class. So on most encounters we are useless.

On AE situations we are the kings only on agroo. few tanks can keep our agroo. And that's sucks. We have a great problem of agroo control. We have only a agroo control spell. And this spell afects only ONE target. We are AE expecialist and we have no AE control spells? What kind of joke it's?

I grouped with summoners and I think they do even more AE damage than us. And they have their nice pets to keep then alive and we must trust on our ease to break roots? COME ON!!!

Our main nukes are DoT... And our only way to be safe is rooting... Roots and DoT are bad friends...

And of course we do not have utils spells live evac.

I do not say we are garbage, cause we are not garbage. I just think we need to be empowered. We need a revamp. That would be fair.

Low damage to be sorcerers, Cast times, agroo management, Rooting and utils... that are our main problems. If you say we do not have utils cause we are a fully damage oriented class... Let us make a realy good amount of damage.

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