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Old 09-30-2012, 12:25 AM   #1
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The animator did a TERRIBLE of placing the character on the mounts. Actually if they sat that way they would fall off in the sky.

Someone needs to go bacck and look at the great illustrations for Dragonlace and see how those artists positioned riders. I can assure that they were not as tottery as the EQ2 version. Also the Pern stories. Those artists had a much better idea of placing the figure on the mount than does EQ2.

Basically if you can sit on a flying horse correctly - sitting on a flying dragon should be no different in position. You don't ride ANYTHING with you feet on its shoulder and think you will stay on.

Please redo the rider graphics for dragon/wyvern mounts

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Old 09-30-2012, 02:22 AM   #2
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Thanks for your feedback. Unfortunately that's how I ride my wyvern.

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Old 09-30-2012, 04:36 AM   #3
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lol - kick %#$ response Ttobey - seriously made me spit out some coffee.

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Old 09-30-2012, 12:39 PM   #4
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ttobey wrote:

Thanks for your feedback. Unfortunately that's how I ride my wyvern.

I hope you fall off your perch.

Where did you ever get the idea that a rider perched up there so unstable. Take a look at the maganificent paintings done for Dragonlance and you wont see such unstable positions.

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Old 09-30-2012, 02:57 PM   #5
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Not copying seems a surprisingly unforgivable sin...

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Old 09-30-2012, 04:30 PM   #6
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Nooooo idea what you're talking about man, wyverns look great, Ttobey. :D

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Old 09-30-2012, 08:15 PM   #7
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he's talking about the position of the rider, that on a wyvern does seen a little bit precarious. not so much on the drakota though

but yes, do go back and look at those paintings you want TTobey too. notice something else? all the dragonlance dragons have 4 legs. they are all designed like basically like a horse for the idea of riding.

the Wyvern, and the Drakota, don't have the frontleg/chest structure to support the saddle/rider postion a horse would.

for all intents and purposes, on those two particular mounts, your not riding on it's 'back' but more on it's neck/shoulders. the saddle position/shape to me resembles more of riding a camel, then a horse which while it does look funny, actually is pretty stable.

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Old 09-30-2012, 10:50 PM   #8
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The odd positioning is why I use a different appearance mount when on my drake.

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Old 10-01-2012, 12:51 AM   #9
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A wyvern necromically speaking is two legged and not four legged like a "horse".  I just went out to my stable and double  checked, but my Wyvern Wally has two legs not four. The saddle on the Norrathian wyvern is high on the spinal column to alllow for digestion of various chemicals that allow the wyvern to spew it's various poisons. Horses don't sprew poison, so the rider never has to worry about his legs being melted off. 

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Old 10-01-2012, 03:57 AM   #10
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@Maroger this pretty silly thing to complain about. If you don't like the mount don't use it.

On a side note I bet this was done for clipping reasons. Wyvern Dragon is a lot wider than a horse.

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Old 10-01-2012, 10:14 AM   #11
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I just did some research myself and made a startling discovery. Turns out EverQuest IS NOT Dragonlance. I am going to have to seriously rethink the entire franchise (this is where you say 'omg yeah dragonlance looks way betteh lul').

I love how OP has now twice referenced these paintings but has refused to just provide a link to what they are talking about. Usually when people rudely say "you're bad, make it like this" they provide some reference material, not a vague homework assignment.

Personally I love the way wyverns were done. The way the player rides it allows the wyverns to be much bigger opposed to always having a middle section small enough the players legs can wrap around. Also conveys this sense that they aren't really supposed to be ridden because they are so huge and muscle bound but players have managed to do it anyway. Like players are so over the top awesome we turned this beast into a mount. Kind of like how giants would use huge mammoths as basic livestock if you get my meaning. Only way we can top this is if we get full on dragon mounts we stand on while riding.

Or THIS

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Old 10-01-2012, 02:44 PM   #12
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Ironically enough, if you look at the covers of dragonrider BOOKS and read the stories, the riders are on the necks of the dragons, not the backs SMILEY

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Old 10-01-2012, 03:13 PM   #13
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[email protected] wrote:

he's talking about the position of the rider, that on a wyvern does seen a little bit precarious. not so much on the drakota though

but yes, do go back and look at those paintings you want TTobey too. notice something else? all the dragonlance dragons have 4 legs. they are all designed like basically like a horse for the idea of riding.

the Wyvern, and the Drakota, don't have the frontleg/chest structure to support the saddle/rider postion a horse would.

for all intents and purposes, on those two particular mounts, your not riding on it's 'back' but more on it's neck/shoulders. the saddle position/shape to me resembles more of riding a camel, then a horse which while it does look funny, actually is pretty stable.

Yes it looks like you are riding a camel --

I think Dragonlance took the anatomical structure of Dragons from Dinosaurs and lizards as Dragons were always considered to belong to the lizard family like Dinosaurs.

The wyvern has either 2 legs or no leg - depending on what source you use.

Drakota are definiately 4 legs - yes the humanoid ones they have 2 arms but in animal form that means legs - so drakota are 4 legged.

But riding bird images show the legs of the rider down - not perched on it shoulders.

http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/image/62109751

Even in Dinotopia the legs are down.

If the rider just perches on the shoulder -- they WILL FALL OFF as it is an unstable position.

Look at where Larry Elmore places his rider.

http://larryelmore.com/category/art/color/page/2

I know for example that James Gurney of Dinotopia - makes clay models of his figures to get anatomay and position correct so they don't look silly like having a rider perches on shoulders and expecting them to stay on in flight.

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Old 10-01-2012, 04:10 PM   #14
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*facepalm* Wings =/= legs. Wyverns and Drakota do not have the same bodily stuctures as dragons. Even then, in the Dragonlance novels themselves, the riders actually ride on the necks of their dragons.

Dragons =/= wyverns, dragons =/= drakota. Okay? Okay.

Also...the Larry Elmore picture you linked looks no different than the placement on the wyvern. The guy's butt is still on the dragon's wings' shoulders.

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Old 10-01-2012, 04:18 PM   #15
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Maroger wrote:

The animator did a TERRIBLE of placing the character on the mounts. Actually if they sat that way they would fall off in the sky.

Someone needs to go bacck and look at the great illustrations for Dragonlace and see how those artists positioned riders. I can assure that they were not as tottery as the EQ2 version. Also the Pern stories. Those artists had a much better idea of placing the figure on the mount than does EQ2.

Basically if you can sit on a flying horse correctly - sitting on a flying dragon should be no different in position. You don't ride ANYTHING with you feet on its shoulder and think you will stay on.

Please redo the rider graphics for dragon/wyvern mounts

I absolutely agree with this. 

The wyvern model itself is utterly AWESOME.  I love it.  But the way my character sits on it is pure and unadulterated crap.

You can argue about this or that third party illustration, but I think that whenver the wyvern is moving the character should be much more secure in the saddle.  To look like I'm always about to fall off is definately not in keeping with the heroic look of the wyvern itself.

I still use it because of how awesome looking the wyvern is, but I try to ignore my character when I do.

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Old 10-01-2012, 09:31 PM   #16
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I have to say this: the argument can be made until the wyvern fly home.  Bottom line is that whatever SOE creates for the world of Norrath is the way it'll be.  It may not be "right" or "correct" according to real life's lore, but it's not what we want, it's what SOE wants.

I see this with readers of books, watchers of movies, etc.  They feel something is wrong, they want it changed, but they forget it's not their world.

That said, I'd say that something akin to a camel saddle would work for a wyvern to sit upwards where the neck and shoulders meet.

The only thing I totally dislike in wyverns is the pogo air humping that the drakota mount does.  Omg...lol!

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Old 10-02-2012, 12:03 AM   #17
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kelvmor wrote:

*facepalm* Wings =/= legs. Wyverns and Drakota do not have the same bodily stuctures as dragons. Even then, in the Dragonlance novels themselves, the riders actually ride on the necks of their dragons.

Dragons =/= wyverns, dragons =/= drakota. Okay? Okay.

Also...the Larry Elmore picture you linked looks no different than the placement on the wyvern. The guy's butt is still on the dragon's wings' shoulders.

The key to riding is the position of the legs -- the legs provide the stability-- you can forward of the wings but the legs are DOWN by the sides - not sitting up on his neck as if you were on a sleigh and steering with your feet.

The downward position of the legs helps anchor the rider in the saddle and gives him a better position of gravity.

The rider on the wyvern has no position of gravity and is just perches there waiting to fall off at the slightest movement.

Obviously the person who put the rider on the wyvern knows nothing about riding and animal of any kind.  He must have looked at someone on a camel as that is what the rider looks like although less secure than on a camel mount.

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Old 10-02-2012, 12:12 AM   #18
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Check out this picture by Clyde Caldwell

http://www.clydecaldwell.com/large_...agon_steed.html

or the more famous one of the GOlden General on her Silver dragon - also Caldwell

http://www.knightsofsolamnia.org/History.htm

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Old 10-02-2012, 12:29 AM   #19
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Maroger wrote:

Check out this picture by Clyde Caldwell

http://www.clydecaldwell.com/large_...agon_steed.html

or the more famous one of the GOlden General on her Silver dragon - also Caldwell

http://www.knightsofsolamnia.org/History.htm

Every single comment you make is for a DRAGON and not a WYVERN. Do you even realise there is a difference between them?

Dragon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon

Wyvern: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyvern

Of course the placement on a wyvern is going to be different than a dragon, their backs are bent into a completely different posture.

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Old 10-02-2012, 12:39 AM   #20
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Rijacki wrote:

Maroger wrote:

Check out this picture by Clyde Caldwell

http://www.clydecaldwell.com/large_...agon_steed.html

or the more famous one of the GOlden General on her Silver dragon - also Caldwell

http://www.knightsofsolamnia.org/History.htm

Every single comment you make is for a DRAGON and not a WYVERN. Do you even realise there is a difference between them?

Dragon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon

Wyvern: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyvern

Of course the placement on a wyvern is going to be different than a dragon, their backs are bent into a completely different posture.

As usual you don't read - I already commented on the origin of the wyven and its history and depiction in heraldry.

However,that does not alter the fact that if the legs of the rider ARE NOT DOWN - their position is unstable. In these animation the riders legs are elevated which means their center of gravity is off and they cannot stay on the animal -- it does NOT matter where you decide to put the rider - but the the gravity of the rider's position MUST BE CORRECT - which means LEGS DOWN not UP.  The leg position is very important to rider stability -- NO MATTER IF IT IS A WYVERN OR NOT - if they legs are not down the rider is unstable and will fall off.

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Old 10-02-2012, 01:19 AM   #21
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Maroger wrote:

kelvmor wrote:

*facepalm* Wings =/= legs. Wyverns and Drakota do not have the same bodily stuctures as dragons. Even then, in the Dragonlance novels themselves, the riders actually ride on the necks of their dragons.

Dragons =/= wyverns, dragons =/= drakota. Okay? Okay.

Also...the Larry Elmore picture you linked looks no different than the placement on the wyvern. The guy's butt is still on the dragon's wings' shoulders.

The key to riding is the position of the legs -- the legs provide the stability-- you can forward of the wings but the legs are DOWN by the sides - not sitting up on his neck as if you were on a sleigh and steering with your feet.

The downward position of the legs helps anchor the rider in the saddle and gives him a better position of gravity.

The rider on the wyvern has no position of gravity and is just perches there waiting to fall off at the slightest movement.

Obviously the person who put the rider on the wyvern knows nothing about riding and animal of any kind.  He must have looked at someone on a camel as that is what the rider looks like although less secure than on a camel mount.

Obviously. My favorite post ever. You have taken the crown from Talathion.

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Old 10-02-2012, 01:56 AM   #22
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In all actuality, due to code constraints, the wyvern rider is the same rider set as the drakota.

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Old 10-02-2012, 02:12 AM   #23
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Sharing player character assets makes it easier to make the mounts better. I personally think the wyvern is the best flying mount in game.

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Old 10-02-2012, 03:07 AM   #24
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Wyvern looks pretty good to me, even the rider up on the high saddle doesn't look bad. Better than how the riders look on the drakota mounts (drakota just look way too small to me to be carrying many of the character models around).

Adding some straps or stirrups wouldn't hurt but I could understand that could be difficult to do for all models.

The only thing I personally don't like about the SC wyverns is the scale patterns. I'm holding out for one with less leathery patchy dinosaur looking skin & more slick or keeled snake type scales =). Here's hoping there's one in the zone or something I can eventually get.

I have to say I'm kind of hoping to one day see mounts so big we are standing on their backs holding reins/ropes like riders of sand worms in Dune lol =) though I'd rather ride a dragon than a worm...unless it's a wyrm

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Old 10-02-2012, 08:54 AM   #25
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Love how people are trying to use the "thats not realistic" or the "physics of it don't make sense" argument here SMILEY

Hi, this is a fantasy game. Where you can shoot fireballs and call down storms of lightning and ice, and teleport to different lands, swim in lava, and resurrect the dead! Since when did things need to make sense in a fantasy MMO?

If you don't like it because its not asthetically pleasing is one thing, but not liking it because its not "realistic" is a pretty.... stupid point to try and argue SMILEY

Rofl....

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Old 10-02-2012, 10:15 AM   #26
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Mohee wrote:

Love how people are trying to use the "thats not realistic" or the "physics of it don't make sense" argument here

Hi, this is a fantasy game. Where you can shoot fireballs and call down storms of lightning and ice, and teleport to different lands, swim in lava, and resurrect the dead! Since when did things need to make sense in a fantasy MMO?

If you don't like it because its not asthetically pleasing is one thing, but not liking it because its not "realistic" is a pretty.... stupid point to try and argue

Rofl....

I think you're wrong. Magic is a physical reality in Norrath. There are reasons (known or unknown) why magic does what it does. Wyverns fly because they have wings. If it was magic that kept them in the air, they wouldn't need wings at all. Aerodynamics, mass, weight and gravity all exist in Norrath. Therefore our understanding of them applies.

In this case, the argument of realism is valid. Norrath is supposed to be a realistic interpretation of a fantasy world.

Having said that, if it doesn't look like rubbish and gameplay is served by it (ie. horses reversing at the same speed as they go forward) I'd say it's the feel and convenience of a mechanism that's the most important and reality be damned. That does not negate the realism argument, it trumps it...

Personally, I would never ride a bear, rhino or warg mount because the "ride" is too bumpy, I would never ride a wyvern with a large character because it just looks wrong (although I might with a fae) and I very rarely go with the discs or carpets because, aesthetically, I don't like my characters to crouch. They're my choices - luckily there are plenty of other options.

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Old 10-02-2012, 12:29 PM   #27
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Maroger wrote:

Yes it looks like you are riding a camel --

I think Dragonlance took the anatomical structure of Dragons from Dinosaurs and lizards as Dragons were always considered to belong to the lizard family like Dinosaurs.

The wyvern has either 2 legs or no leg - depending on what source you use.

Drakota are definiately 4 legs - yes the humanoid ones they have 2 arms but in animal form that means legs - so drakota are 4 legged.

But riding bird images show the legs of the rider down - not perched on it shoulders.

http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/image/62109751

Even in Dinotopia the legs are down.

If the rider just perches on the shoulder -- they WILL FALL OFF as it is an unstable position.

Look at where Larry Elmore places his rider.

http://larryelmore.com/category/art/color/page/2

I know for example that James Gurney of Dinotopia - makes clay models of his figures to get anatomay and position correct so they don't look silly like having a rider perches on shoulders and expecting them to stay on in flight.

I noticed the page you linked, is selling EverQuest artworkhttp://larryelmore.com/category/art/color/page/7I wonder if this is permitted?

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Old 10-02-2012, 12:54 PM   #28
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ttobey wrote:

Sharing player character assets makes it easier to make the mounts better. I personally think the wyvern is the best flying mount in game.

Yes the Wyvern is better than the griffin flying mount, but I still prefer the horse. But then I like horses.

But I will not get a wyvern because of the rider position - I looked in the dressing room and thought the characters looked silly and stupid perched on the wyvern but the mount itself is very nice.

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Old 10-02-2012, 12:55 PM   #29
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[email protected] wrote:

Maroger wrote:

Yes it looks like you are riding a camel --

I think Dragonlance took the anatomical structure of Dragons from Dinosaurs and lizards as Dragons were always considered to belong to the lizard family like Dinosaurs.

The wyvern has either 2 legs or no leg - depending on what source you use.

Drakota are definiately 4 legs - yes the humanoid ones they have 2 arms but in animal form that means legs - so drakota are 4 legged.

But riding bird images show the legs of the rider down - not perched on it shoulders.

http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/image/62109751

Even in Dinotopia the legs are down.

If the rider just perches on the shoulder -- they WILL FALL OFF as it is an unstable position.

Look at where Larry Elmore places his rider.

http://larryelmore.com/category/art/color/page/2

I know for example that James Gurney of Dinotopia - makes clay models of his figures to get anatomay and position correct so they don't look silly like having a rider perches on shoulders and expecting them to stay on in flight.

I noticed the page you linked, is selling EverQuest artworkhttp://larryelmore.com/category/art/color/page/7I wonder if this is permitted?

Larry Elmore and many TSR artist did the artwork for the original Everquest - I am sure they have permission -- Larry Elmore usually negotiates his contracts that way.

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Old 10-02-2012, 02:37 PM   #30
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Maroger wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Maroger wrote:

Yes it looks like you are riding a camel --

I think Dragonlance took the anatomical structure of Dragons from Dinosaurs and lizards as Dragons were always considered to belong to the lizard family like Dinosaurs.

The wyvern has either 2 legs or no leg - depending on what source you use.

Drakota are definiately 4 legs - yes the humanoid ones they have 2 arms but in animal form that means legs - so drakota are 4 legged.

But riding bird images show the legs of the rider down - not perched on it shoulders.

http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/image/62109751

Even in Dinotopia the legs are down.

If the rider just perches on the shoulder -- they WILL FALL OFF as it is an unstable position.

Look at where Larry Elmore places his rider.

http://larryelmore.com/category/art/color/page/2

I know for example that James Gurney of Dinotopia - makes clay models of his figures to get anatomay and position correct so they don't look silly like having a rider perches on shoulders and expecting them to stay on in flight.

I noticed the page you linked, is selling EverQuest artworkhttp://larryelmore.com/category/art/color/page/7I wonder if this is permitted?

Larry Elmore and many TSR artist did the artwork for the original Everquest - I am sure they have permission -- Larry Elmore usually negotiates his contracts that way.

Not to mention Mr. Elmore has a booth at Fan Faire/SOE Live specifically to sell his art work. So yea, I imagine he has permission.

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