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Old 06-27-2012, 06:28 PM   #61
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BChizzle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

It already takes away avoidance for brawlers.. the only avoidance that counts .. uncontested wich is tied to our def stance.  and we taking the 50% more damage hehe =p. This update just gives pallys and sk's what they want.. brawlers nerfed! I am fine with loosing the strikethrew imunity.. but taking like a 2k mit hit hurts.. have a focus effect that added mit on my self str buff.. doesnt seem to be there anymore on test.. plus the other mit things they took away from lvling. This potency dps buff def buffs pallys and sk's alot more then any other fighter.   

After this goes live.. Guards gunna be the only real MT i think.  

Inner focus focus only increases HP the mit is part of the buff.

ahh yah your right.. hmm didnt notice it on test will have to look again when i get home.

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Old 06-27-2012, 06:47 PM   #62
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BChizzle wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

yep it should be adding to thier wards.

Yeah... I think the stance should be rethought a bit...

This way it hits all fighters equally... of course you might have to add something for Stance Mastery for Warrior for its Endline to remove some of those penaltys.

It doesnt hit fighters equally, brawlers have 0 avoid in recklessness stance while plate tanks still have their shields.  This will need to be balanced.

I think to balance this.. it would have to be a buff outside of stances.. fixes both those problems.. u can be in def stance and still use the buff.. or offence..   As for the buff just adding potency.. that will still effect sk's/pallys tons more tho lol.

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Old 06-27-2012, 06:51 PM   #63
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I think it should be a Mitigation/Avoidance/Healing Reduction Hit instead.
25% Reduction to TOTAL Mitigation. (this way brawlers don't take a big hit.)
25% Reduction to SELF heals. (So paladins/shadowknights can't just ward everything away.)
25% Reduction to All Avoidance Checks. (parry, block, riposte, dodge.)
Stance Mastery in the Warrior Tree should reduce all that by 5-10%, making the talent a viable option to warriors who choose to use the Stance.
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Old 06-27-2012, 06:58 PM   #64
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/shrug i was just looking for a way it would effect all fighters the same lol... making it a buff instead of stance and adding reduces avoidance to 0.. would make it the same for everyone and not effect aa lines tied to stances much.

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:02 PM   #65
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[email protected] wrote:

/shrug i was just looking for a way it would effect all fighters the same lol... making it a buff instead of stance and adding reduces avoidance to 0.. would make it the same for everyone and not effect aa lines tied to stances much.

I think this solution is best.

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:04 PM   #66
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I agree, a buff would let me use my stances and my aas with them.

But I also with the buff's penaltys effected all fighters evenly.

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:05 PM   #67
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[email protected] wrote:

It already takes away avoidance for brawlers.. the only avoidance that counts .. uncontested wich is tied to our def stance.  and we taking the 50% more damage hehe =p. This update just gives pallys and sk's what they want.. brawlers nerfed! I am fine with loosing the strikethrew imunity.. but taking like a 2k mit hit hurts.. have a focus effect that added mit on my self str buff.. doesnt seem to be there anymore on test.. plus the other mit things they took away from lvling. This potency dps buff def buffs pallys and sk's alot more then any other fighter.   

After this goes live.. Guards gunna be the only real MT i think.  

What a joke this post is.  Reckless Stance only nerfs brawlers IF THEY USE IT.  The other changes were necessary, fighter disparity has been at an all time high since the Strikethrough immunity was added to brawler DStance, and you are supposed to have lower mitigation thatn plate-wearers.

I will agree the potency buff helps the crusaders the most, after that Monk's OP Dragonfire is going to be doing even more stupid amounts than it already is.

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:07 PM   #68
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Tekadeo wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

It already takes away avoidance for brawlers.. the only avoidance that counts .. uncontested wich is tied to our def stance.  and we taking the 50% more damage hehe =p. This update just gives pallys and sk's what they want.. brawlers nerfed! I am fine with loosing the strikethrew imunity.. but taking like a 2k mit hit hurts.. have a focus effect that added mit on my self str buff.. doesnt seem to be there anymore on test.. plus the other mit things they took away from lvling. This potency dps buff def buffs pallys and sk's alot more then any other fighter.   

After this goes live.. Guards gunna be the only real MT i think.  

What a joke this post is.  Reckless Stance only nerfs brawlers IF THEY USE IT.  The other changes were necessary, fighter disparity has been at an all time high since the Strikethrough immunity was added to brawler DStance, and you are supposed to have lower mitigation thatn plate-wearers.

I will agree the potency buff helps the crusaders the most, after that Monk's OP Dragonfire is going to be doing even more stupid amounts than it already is.

Dragonfire destroys people in pvp from my experiences.

But I can't give the buff any doubt until its fixed.

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:09 PM   #69
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[email protected] wrote:

/shrug i was just looking for a way it would effect all fighters the same lol... making it a buff instead of stance and adding reduces avoidance to 0.. would make it the same for everyone and not effect aa lines tied to stances much.

Would you want it to remove all Avoidence or just Block?  Would you want it to remove the benifit of Avoidence food/drink and the repost of gear/adorns?  Also avoidence from others? 

that may be balinced enuff to me also.

My only consern about this is that plate tanks that only ever get Block from there shield will not be using a shield with this anyway so they are not lowsing anything?

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:11 PM   #70
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Tekadeo wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

It already takes away avoidance for brawlers.. the only avoidance that counts .. uncontested wich is tied to our def stance.  and we taking the 50% more damage hehe =p. This update just gives pallys and sk's what they want.. brawlers nerfed! I am fine with loosing the strikethrew imunity.. but taking like a 2k mit hit hurts.. have a focus effect that added mit on my self str buff.. doesnt seem to be there anymore on test.. plus the other mit things they took away from lvling. This potency dps buff def buffs pallys and sk's alot more then any other fighter.   

After this goes live.. Guards gunna be the only real MT i think.  

What a joke this post is.  Reckless Stance only nerfs brawlers IF THEY USE IT.  The other changes were necessary, fighter disparity has been at an all time high since the Strikethrough immunity was added to brawler DStance, and you are supposed to have lower mitigation thatn plate-wearers.

I will agree the potency buff helps the crusaders the most, after that Monk's OP Dragonfire is going to be doing even more stupid amounts than it already is.

You do know why they gave brawlers strikethrough immunity in first place right? becuse we had less mit and were getting 1 shoted lols.. So they gave us strikethrough immunity, then mit.. Wich was bit op.. Problem is they cant make an encounter that both types of tanks could tank.. avoidance and a mit tank..  So For brawlers to tank u have to bring up their mit! i dont want strike threw imunity.. i just want mit. Beucse soe cant do avoidance tanking. AND FOR YOUR INFO GUARDS ARE GETTING 65% + uncontested avoidance with quite a bit more mit then brawlers.. lols..  soo like i said GUARDS will be the only MT"S in progression.

ps i am sure brawlers will still be able to tank some but wont know till we try!!

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:16 PM   #71
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but ya as for reckless stance! make it a buff so it can be used with stances, and add reduces avoidance to 0, And maybe change from potency to crit bonus!! not sure on that one how it would effect all tanks dps tho,, but it wouldnt effect any wards the tanks have.

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:17 PM   #72
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[email protected] wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

/shrug i was just looking for a way it would effect all fighters the same lol... making it a buff instead of stance and adding reduces avoidance to 0.. would make it the same for everyone and not effect aa lines tied to stances much.

Would you want it to remove all Avoidence or just Block?  Would you want it to remove the benifit of Avoidence food/drink and the repost of gear/adorns?  Also avoidence from others? 

that may be balinced enuff to me also.

My only consern about this is that plate tanks that only ever get Block from there shield will not be using a shield with this anyway so they are not lowsing anything?

Remove all avoidance.. they dont want tanks to be tanking with it =p. and pallys and sk's would prob still use shields with this buff if they kept their avoidance lol.

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:18 PM   #73
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[email protected] wrote:

but ya as for reckless stance! make it a buff so it can be used with stances, and add reduces avoidance to 0, And maybe change from potency to crit bonus!! not sure on that one how it would effect all tanks dps tho,, but it wouldnt effect any wards the tanks have.

If it was crit bonus it would be insanely OP since we would be auto attacking for crazy numbers.

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:20 PM   #74
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lol. if anyone has a right to complain about recklessness and fighter changes in general its zerkers. were still the crappiest tank post strikethrough nerf and now we'll probably be the crappiest (maybe 2nd) dps fighter too lol. our CAs do jack for damage comparitively so were gonna see the least benefit from extra pot... overall tho recklessness should be able to run in conjunction with ostance. i think it should reduce avoid and mit, threat should switch to dethreat, and there should be some sort of melee increasing tool not just potency.

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:23 PM   #75
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BChizzle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

but ya as for reckless stance! make it a buff so it can be used with stances, and add reduces avoidance to 0, And maybe change from potency to crit bonus!! not sure on that one how it would effect all tanks dps tho,, but it wouldnt effect any wards the tanks have.

If it was crit bonus it would be insanely OP since we would be auto attacking for crazy numbers.

lol your probly right.. ok change it to crit bonus but at a reduces amount lolnot double + 50, they would have to test dps to see what would be even i guess haha... ya dunnno how they could balance the dps part of the stance but balance the negative effects between fighters would be easy as a buff.

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:23 PM   #76
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Well, if Brawlers can't avoid attacks, nobody should in my opinion.

So... recklessness.

from what i've gathered so far, I don't think anyone should beable to avoid attacks in it.  And nobody should beable to just turn it off and tank either, and nobody should get increased healing with it.

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:24 PM   #77
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[email protected] wrote:

lol. if anyone has a right to complain about recklessness and fighter changes in general its zerkers. were still the crappiest tank post strikethrough nerf and now we'll probably be the crappiest (maybe 2nd) dps fighter too lol. our CAs do jack for damage comparitively so were gonna see the least benefit from extra pot... overall tho recklessness should be able to run in conjunction with ostance. i think it should reduce avoid and mit, threat should switch to dethreat, and there should be some sort of melee increasing tool not just potency.

You just need to play better.  Zerkers can put up insane DPS numbers.

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:27 PM   #78
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BChizzle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

lol. if anyone has a right to complain about recklessness and fighter changes in general its zerkers. were still the crappiest tank post strikethrough nerf and now we'll probably be the crappiest (maybe 2nd) dps fighter too lol. our CAs do jack for damage comparitively so were gonna see the least benefit from extra pot... overall tho recklessness should be able to run in conjunction with ostance. i think it should reduce avoid and mit, threat should switch to dethreat, and there should be some sort of melee increasing tool not just potency.

You just need to play better.  Zerkers can put up insane DPS numbers.

Well on test all damaged is bugged atm (Critical Bonus is not applying at all.)

But our offensive stance gives us lots of accuracy/a huge damage proc.

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:37 PM   #79
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BChizzle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

but ya as for reckless stance! make it a buff so it can be used with stances, and add reduces avoidance to 0, And maybe change from potency to crit bonus!! not sure on that one how it would effect all tanks dps tho,, but it wouldnt effect any wards the tanks have.

If it was crit bonus it would be insanely OP since we would be auto attacking for crazy numbers.

With recklessness? its a pure dps stance, I'd never use a shield with that one up SMILEY

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:38 PM   #80
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dont put any crit bonus on it. just add autoattack mod or weapon damage bonus.  

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:43 PM   #81
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BChizzle wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

lol. if anyone has a right to complain about recklessness and fighter changes in general its zerkers. were still the crappiest tank post strikethrough nerf and now we'll probably be the crappiest (maybe 2nd) dps fighter too lol. our CAs do jack for damage comparitively so were gonna see the least benefit from extra pot... overall tho recklessness should be able to run in conjunction with ostance. i think it should reduce avoid and mit, threat should switch to dethreat, and there should be some sort of melee increasing tool not just potency.

You just need to play better.  Zerkers can put up insane DPS numbers.

i was just saying we'll see the least benefit lol. and our dps is only super beast on ae stuff. its solid but were very auto dependent. pot effects us less than other fighters. especially  if we wont be able to use gibe or jeering due to positional increases

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Old 06-27-2012, 07:46 PM   #82
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auto attack mod would be nice hehe... but def make buff so we can get + skills from offence stances!!

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Old 06-27-2012, 08:04 PM   #83
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[email protected] wrote:

auto attack mod would be nice hehe... but def make buff so we can get + skills from offence stances!!

You are seriously overrating the +skills part of your OStance....  Even the proc from Zerker's Offensive Stance doesnt add much DPS anymore.

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Old 06-27-2012, 08:13 PM   #84
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If you're not using gibe it's your own fault for not canceling your myth buff.

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Old 06-27-2012, 08:17 PM   #85
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

If you're not using gibe it's your own fault for not canceling your myth buff.

I sure do like cancelling buffs to use a skill.  By using Recklessness we arent supposed to be tanks anymore, so why do we still have snaps and defensive temps anyway?

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Old 06-27-2012, 08:25 PM   #86
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Auto attack multiplier buff, something like .2-.25

Give us the same hit rates from behind 95+

 +50% cb

+50% potency

+50% damage taken

Changes the threat part of abilities into a damage value worth half the value of the hate.

Changes threat postionals into negative values

Can't be cast in combat

Takes user to 10% hp upon exiting in combat.

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Old 06-27-2012, 08:26 PM   #87
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-- Recklesness --

There are a few issues that I see with this ability.  

First off is that for the major dps orientated stance of all  tank classes it does nothing to increasethe primary damage contributor of most tanks, their auto attack, which leaves it giving an overall boost in outgoing damage, but not from what would be intuitive for this stance.  As is the stance will grant an addition of 50 pot then double the result of what your new pot would be.  As such if someone has 200 pot the Recklessness stance would leave the character with (200 + 50) x 2 = 500 pot.  This in turn means that Recklesness does not give an equally proportional increase in outgoing damage between characters with different amounts of potency.  This will leave lesser geared characters with the feel of this stance doing more for them right now than it will in the future when their stats increase.  I realize that removal entirely of the pot addition would leave the stance nigh worthless at the low levels though.  

Secondly I would like to say that the penalties for Recklesness make it nigh suicidal to use in certain situations, especially on raids.  Since a tank in the Recklesness stance will recieve 50% more incoming damage it stands to reason that they will often be one shotted by AOEs that even the squishy mages would live through without worry.  I realize that mages fear physical AOEs like no other, but I mean all AOEs.  Mages can get their resistances against nox, elemental and arcane just as high as a tank for the most part when self buffed, and on raid there is not an overwhelming difference.  As such the damage that a mage takes from those types of AOEs are pretty much in line with the damage that the tank would recieve.  Now if we increase the damage that a tank in the Recklesness stance would take from such AOEs by 50% it stands to reason that they would often end up being one shotted whereas the mages would survive just fine.  For example... let us say that the tank takes perhaps 20% less damage from an AOE than a mage just to reinforce the mage being a squishy little thing and an AOE hits the mage for say 60k dmg.  Then it stands to reason that the tank would normally take 48k dmg.  Now... if the tank were to be in the Recklessness stance they would be hit for 72k dmg.  Take into consideration that the mage is likely in a different dmg bracket due to their range as compared to the dpsing tank or a scout and you'd likely see something a good deal higher than a 72k hit on the tank in this scenario unless they were to joust out to where the mages were standing.  This leads me to believe that a tank in the Recklesness stance risks being one shotted by AOEs that scouts and mages would survive on raids, which makes the stance a bit lack luster on raids. Now there is another issue that I have with the mechanic of the 50% inc dmg increase being the only real penalty while in the stance which is that defensive temps for avoidance such as Tsunami, Dragoon's Reflexes and Shadowknight's Furor will  still grant 100% avoidance and strikethrough immunity.  Which means that an OT with no adds to tank could use such an ability if the MT were to die to pick up the named and tank for a duration of about 20 seconds with little fear of dying so long as they are not one shotted by an AOE or throat punched by the avoidance dmg procs. 

Also, the requests for a larger decrease to hate gain make some semblance of sense.  A berserker for example can stand easily at 40% hate gain just from adorns and AAs these days.  Also groupwide dehate from troubs and chanters do not effect tanks at the moment.  If dehate buffs would be changed to apply to fighters in this stance that would be nice some of the time, but also rather undesireable if the tank were to want to pick up a mob for a short duration while in this stance.  I believe it would be better to simply double the amount of dehate to counter the hate adorns that many fighters wear these days so that you would get to the intended -30% hate mod more reliably.  Otherwise there could be an effect that cancels out hate buffs on the tank.  

I would like to comment that the rampant requests for the pot increase to instead be changed to cb likely comes from people wanting to have a benefit for their auto attack damage.  In my opinion the increase being to pot is fine so long as a multiplier to auto attack be added as well.  I mean let us be realistic here...  If this is to be the true dps stance for tanks then why not have it grant an auto attack multiplier?  Even Priests have base auto attack multipliers at this point in the game, and I figure that if the characters that are to be healing the grp/raid have an auto attack multiplier why not grant tanks the ability to have one when in their most offensive stance?  

I would like to add that the lack of weapon skill bonuses from the stance more or less make sense.

Not removing positionals/threat from abilities makes sense as well.  Any tank that whinges because they can't use their snaps to dps should either still their tongue, or realize that they can hop in front of the mob and pop a save then use the ability and wait half a second for the MT to pick the named back up.  

Due to these issues/concerns I have a proposal for what this ability could be changed to that I believe would make it more useful, but also more dangerous to use in certain situations.  

Recklesness

[description of ability]

Target          Self

Casting         0.5 seconds

Recast          5.0 seconds

Duration        Until Cancelled

Level           20

Effects:

- Exiting this stance in combat sets the fighter

  to extremely low health

- Decreases Hate Gain of caster by 30.0%

- Cancels up to 50% of Hate Gain buffs on caster.

- Increases Potency of caster by 25.0%

- Doubles the caster's potency

- Improves baste auto attack multiplier of caster by 0.25  

- Decreases the effectiveness of worn

  armor vs physical damage by 20%

- Decreases Mitigation of caster vs elemental, 

  noxious and arcane damage by 10%

- Decreases Parry, Dodge and Block chances by 100.0%

- Must not be engaged in combat

- Cannot be modified except by direct means

I believe that a Recklesness stance more in lines with this would cause tanks to take drastically increased damage while at the same time countering avoidance temps to some degree and giving a more rounded increase to the outgoing damage of all tank types.  Remember that a temp like Tsunami gives 100% parry and makes you strikethrough immune.  With this altered version it would return you to your normal parry value and make you striketrhough immune which in some sense makes this version a bit more risky to use.  

Now I guess it is time for the rage over such a proposal to ensue.  

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Old 06-27-2012, 08:29 PM   #88
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Xaxtionlorex wrote:

Auto attack multiplier buff, something like .2-.25

Give us the same hit rates from behind 95+

 +50% cb

+50% potency

+50% damage taken

Changes the threat part of abilities into a damage value worth half the value of the hate.

Changes threat postionals into negative values

Can't be cast in combat

Takes user to 10% hp upon exiting in combat.

Yeah how about no.It doesn't need more advantages than it gives already.You're still a fighter, NOT a DPS class.Unless DPS classes are given a magical buff to make then fill an entirely separate roll as well, fighters shouldn't get more than what they are.

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Old 06-27-2012, 08:34 PM   #89
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And no "real dps class" should be worried in the least about being out dps'ed by a fighter in wreckless. If my 500k is going to bother you, pick it up, real dps are already in the 800-1mil range on a single target, fighters won't ever get near that.

If we shouldn't be, more then what we are, we should also

Nerf chanter and bard dps into the ground, they are power feed and buff classes, support and utility, they don't need to dps well to do any of that.

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Old 06-27-2012, 08:48 PM   #90
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Xaxtionlorex wrote:

And no "real dps class" should be worried in the least about being out dps'ed by a fighter in wreckless. If my 500k is going to bother you, pick it up, real dps are already in the 800-1mil range on a single target, fighters won't ever get near that.

If we shouldn't be, more then what we are, we should also

Nerf chanter and bard dps into the ground, they are power feed and buff classes, support and utility, they don't need to dps well to do any of that.

If a raid geared SK can't compete with every single t1 dps on ae fights in wrecklessness, then they suck. the double potency is only going to compound more and more at the rate this game advances on stats, and crusaders have 2-3x more blues then any other class in game.

Remove the pvp aspect on test, let a high end guild go in there, and see what its capable of at its current state. I really think people here are underestimated the potential of a crusader with that stance. I think back to some parses i saw Jeal put up during SF and i can't help but think what he'd do with this type of a stance, AND the buffs that a mage/scout would be getting. You buff up that paly/sk with ev/ut a link, and they will destroy with a buff that adds 50 potency and then doubles their total on top of  that. Never mind they get all of the advantages of all the melee auto atk mechanics too, and most likely close to or at 100% ae auto atk. the hit taken from it is a joke, and all they have to do is put up furor and the hate jumps wont matter bc they'll be fine until the mt has time to get them back.

I'm against a stance that tries to put a fighter in with t1 to begin with or even close to it, but if they wanna do this they can't do a mechanic that doubles a core stat like cb or potency. it needs to be straight gain or a smaller % gain, like say 15% and then let them use their ostance with it. this is way to far tho for crusaders. I'm not sure how they can balance this out between a class like an SK and a class like a guardian. Because the double potency and potency gain is leaps and bounds better for that SK than the guardian. This is just very poorly thought out.

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