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Old 04-28-2012, 04:53 PM   #1
niteowl53

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With today's triple station cash even going on for 24 hours, this question really needs to be answered. I have read many posts old and new, about using in-game plat to buy SC game cards.  I don't want to argue the point of should it be allowed or not. I don't care either way.What I am asking for is a difinitive answer from EQ2/SoE on whether THEY sanction this action? They him haw around it, do little tippy toe dances, but never come out and say it one way or another, because all they care about is getting their cash. If they say they don't support it, then their card sales will drop. If they say they do support it, well then they are going to have to regulate it and punish those scammers, and anyone else who has a complaint about their transactions.  By not anwering they get it both ways, they get their money and don't have to be bothered with any complaints or problems."[EQ2] EverQuest II Rules of Conduct state:You may not defraud other players.Fraud is defined as falsely representing one's intentions to make a gain at another's expense. Examples of this activity include, but are not limited to, using deception to deprive another player of items or coin (by trade scamming or any other method), slandering another player or impersonating them with the intention of causing harm to that player's reputation, or falsely representing one's identity in order to gain access to another player's account or account information.Fraud in all transactions between players may result in disciplinary action when confirmed by an EQII CSR."Since yesterday, I know 4 people who got ripped off trying to buy SC cards. Scammer got the Plat then logged and deleted toon within 1 few minutes, it was on EQ2 players for about 10 mins, then it was gone, Got the Plat, then given bad card numbers, etc... And these scammers advertised in channels and auction channels. They advertised to sell real world monetary items, in-game.Which amounts to buying Plat.

In reading thru the forums, I have seen many that say SoE says tough luck, but we can't and won't do a thing. I've read other posts that say a very helpful GM got them their Plat back.  Whether you can get it back or not should not depend on if you get the "right" GM or not, it should be company policy, which they will not define.I know everyone is gonna jump on here and say hahaha they got ripped off, good for them, just like SoE as long as it isn't them, they don't care. But SoE needs to come out and say one way or another, and put it into their rules. Either Allow it, and prosecute/ban those that commit Fraud as it states in your rules of conduct, or not allow it and punish those that try to sell cards. But stop trying to have it both ways at the expense of your player base.Please can I get someone who has the authority and the honesty to just state here and now, without dancing around it, what is your policy, not that you are just turning a blind eye?  Why have a policy concerning fraud if you never intend to enforce it?/awaits the h8

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Old 04-28-2012, 05:09 PM   #2
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If the scammer deleted the toon right afterwards it's obviously a low level character.  Ask the person with the SC take anon off, and if they are on a lower level character ask them to switch to their higher level one.  If they claim to not have one then decide on your own to pass or take the risk.

It would be too much work for SOE CS so they'll never officially promise to enforce trade agreements outside the in game trade system.  At best all pushing for increased customer support will do is get trading SC for pp officially labeled as against the rules which would be unfortunate for those able to weigh the risks, minimize them, and decide it's still worth giving somebody pp in exchange for SC. 

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Old 04-28-2012, 05:44 PM   #3
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I truly doubt they will ever make it illegal to buy sc with plat. Not because they care about what the people involved think/want, but because of the simple fact that it's a win/win for Sony. It's actually kind of genius-by saying they dont "officially support the activity, do it at your own risk" they absolve themselves of any lost plat or having to refund sc thats lost due to scamming, and either way, they (sony) gets paid lol. It's basically plat selling/buying where they are guaranteed a "cut". They're probably raking it in hand over fist, especially on triple sc days lol. As a gamer, i think it's scummy that its been allowed to continue, but from a business standpoint, i would think them fools if they did otherwise.

As far as people being cheated, if you're..(I'll say naive here lol) enough to trust some random guy in 1-9 to play by the rules and not cheat you, well, then the only way you're going to learn is to get cheated. Its unfortunate, and i think people that rip others off should get really bad rashes lol, but thats life.

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Old 04-28-2012, 05:49 PM   #4
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If they're going to continue to allow people to trade cards for plat, they really should go ahead and make an official way of handling it to not only stop the scamming, but to save themselves the headache they must endure from constant petitions. Just give us a no-hassle window where people can buy SC from other players without any fear of being ripped off.

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Old 04-28-2012, 05:53 PM   #5
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

They're probably raking it in hand over fist, especially on triple sc days lol. 

I doubt they're raking it in on triple days, as most people buying the things are probably turning around and using them to pay for very cheap 12-month subs, which would actually lose SOE money.

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Old 04-28-2012, 09:23 PM   #6
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those guys who cheat or scam are hurting other players who are selling honestly.

as rule of thumb, never buy anything from 'un-guilded' or low level.

buy them from well established characters is the best way, personally i feel that we should limited to sell 2 cards a month by per account client.

so, i am sorry you got tricked and they are ruining others' reputations who are selling and helping others who cant get cards in their local home zones to built up SC points.

so i am learning the conversion with plats to SC trade are 100p = $5 value recently, Walmart cards are the best valued deals that has bonus.

just becareful during special SC days, so i recommended meet that character first to see legitimate seller if it established or unknown low level, if you see newly created, just avoid them. they could be plat farmer or cheater who can delete and rerolled.

by the way Tiger,

those who used SC for monthly wont get free bonus perks, only works if you use CC or other means of paypal formats to get free SC points.

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Old 04-28-2012, 10:40 PM   #7
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gerlord001 wrote:

[email protected] Bayle wrote:

They're probably raking it in hand over fist, especially on triple sc days lol. 

I doubt they're raking it in on triple days, as most people buying the things are probably turning around and using them to pay for very cheap 12-month subs, which would actually lose SOE money.

this ^

if you have a recuring monthly sub you pay 179.88 a year , tripple sc you can buy a year for 30.00 makes soe loosing $149.88.

after you buy that year with sc you can add a credit card to your account making it recurring, so you still get the free mothly SC, gifting ability etc etc.   

now weather or not people take advantage of tripple sc days like this instead of buying a shiny new mount or apearance gear who knows , but i know i did along with many in my guild.

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Old 04-28-2012, 10:52 PM   #8
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really, buy at your own risk works.  I myself have been scammed, and lost a fair chunk of plat because of it.  When I looked back on it the next day i had myself an epic /facepalm moment, and learned a valuable lesson~dont buy SC with plat when your tired and falling asleep at the keyboard.  lvl 5 toon, anon, unguilded...signs were there, I learned my lesson, and the scammer got my plats.  I was upset sure, but more because I felt stupid about falling for it.  If you use a little basic intelligence and common sense, its NOT a problem and you will not be scammed.

DO NOT BUY FROM

~Low Level Toons

~Unguilded Toons

~People with shoddy english

~Anyone who gives you a "bad feeling"

DO BUY FROM

~High Lvl Toons 80+

~Folks in KNOWN and RESPECTABLE guilds

~People you "know"

~Well Known RESPECTABLE Characters

WHEN IN DOUBT~ask in chat channels, people know the reliable sellers with a good name, and players with reputations, even if you don't.

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Old 04-28-2012, 11:07 PM   #9
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Old 04-28-2012, 11:18 PM   #10
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Old 04-28-2012, 11:21 PM   #11
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Old 04-28-2012, 11:54 PM   #12
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Yes, all good advice after the fact, but the scammer was guilded, and the ones scammed contacted the guild leader of that guild, and got alt names and such, but not much they can do, that info was turned over to SoE, with no answer yet to the petition. The purpose of my post is to get a difinitive answer from Soe. They need to man up and just say Yes or No. It's a very simple question. Their policy states that you may not de-fraud someone or there will be consequences, will they act upon that as well, since it is in their own rules? All they need to do is look at the logs of the names that were given to them and follow the money. It cannot be that hard to do,if you know what you are doing. Screenshots and logs were sent in the petition as well, but I heard those don't matter also.

So the question still remains, What is SoE's Official stance on selling Game Cards in game for plat?

/awaits answer

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Old 04-29-2012, 12:04 AM   #13
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niteowl53 wrote:

So the question still remains, What is SoE's Official stance on selling Game Cards in game for plat?

/awaits answer

Without sifting back through the forum, smokejumper did make the official response of

~buy/sell SC for plat at your own risk; as long as it is done on a player to player basis, they will not interfere, but only so long as its a player to player transaction, and not SC/plat site X  to player, with definitive guidelines on how much SC equals how much plat~

That is a very loose quote, the gist of it really.  And while, yes, various servers have their own "rough" guidelines on X plat is equal to X SC, they are not definitive and fluctuate, sometimes wildly.  Your welcome to go back and sift through the various forum posts and such, but that is the ~official stance~ on SC4PP.

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Old 04-29-2012, 12:18 AM   #14
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I truly doubt they will ever make it illegal to buy sc with plat. Not because they care about what the people involved think/want, but because of the simple fact that it's a win/win for Sony. It's actually kind of genius-by saying they dont "officially support the activity, do it at your own risk" they absolve themselves of any lost plat or having to refund sc thats lost due to scamming, and either way, they (sony) gets paid lol. It's basically plat selling/buying where they are guaranteed a "cut". They're probably raking it in hand over fist, especially on triple sc days lol. As a gamer, i think it's scummy that its been allowed to continue, but from a business standpoint, i would think them fools if they did otherwise.

As far as people being cheated, if you're..(I'll say naive here lol) enough to trust some random guy in 1-9 to play by the rules and not cheat you, well, then the only way you're going to learn is to get cheated. Its unfortunate, and i think people that rip others off should get really bad rashes lol, but thats life.

They could get the same effect -- probably better -- by selling plat on marketplace.  And they wouldn't have people getting gold subs for free.

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Old 04-29-2012, 12:42 AM   #15
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I only mention this because its in Beta, but GW2 has built in to their Marketplace where you can buy 'gems' for Gold from other players.

So player A uses cash to buy gems. Then list it on the broker. Player B uses Gold to buy gems from player A.

When its done, player A get Gold for dollars and player B gets gems for Gold.

Totally within the secure Marketplace they have set up. This is based on the model Eve Online uses for their Plex system.

So, since two totally different game companies can make this process secure, why can't SoE?

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Old 04-29-2012, 12:52 AM   #16
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Gravy wrote:

So, since two totally different game companies can make this process secure, why can't SoE?

they tried that, remember live gamer?

that worked out pretty well , so well in fact that players avoided those servers like the plague .

most rerolled on other servers just to get away, in the end both servers ended up compleatly dead.

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Old 04-29-2012, 01:03 AM   #17
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yohann koldheart wrote:

Gravy wrote:

So, since two totally different game companies can make this process secure, why can't SoE?

they tried that, remember live gamer?

that worked out pretty well , so well in fact that players avoided those servers like the plague .

most rerolled on other servers just to get away, in the end both servers ended up compleatly dead.

Totally different. Plus at that time Station Cash didn't exist.

Live Gamer was to sell Plat and Characters to other players for cash. SoE got no money from the transation.

The system in place in GW2 and Eve allows the game company to make money because someone has to buy the gems or PLEX or Station Cash before a player can buy that for Plat.

See the difference?

In the system being used the game company sells Game Cards. In the Live Gamer system, the game company sold nothing.

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Old 04-29-2012, 01:10 AM   #18
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niteowl53 wrote:

So the question still remains, What is SoE's Official stance on selling Game Cards in game for plat?

/awaits answer

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting on a better answer. SmokeJumper and Co are fine with it as long as they get their cut. They're getting paid and they don't have to acknowledge the process. The Prosieben nonsense shows that they're clearly not against the idea that silence is an appropriate response...and this is one that's actively making them money every day already. Why would they address the issue?

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Old 04-29-2012, 01:21 AM   #19
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niteowl53 wrote:

So the question still remains, What is SoE's Official stance on selling Game Cards in game for plat?

/awaits answer

the question doesent still remain at all, for anyone to think they have to comment on the same topic over and over is rediculous.

smokejumper himself posted in at least 2 other threads on the same topic saying it was alowed, aslong as somone dont set up a website and put a hard value on SC.

he said to do it at your own risk and that its not supported

here just because people are to lazy to look for them selves.

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We really don't want to put a hard value on platinum to SC conversion rates, so we would probably only step in on this if we thought it was going to cause us legal headaches in the future. So...if kept on the low-down, it'll never cause problems. But if someone put up a website selling items officially with posted conversion rates, I have a feeling that legal might want to step in and stop it to avoid issues.

Make sense? Keep it person-to-person and I don't think this will ever be an issue.

  

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Old 04-29-2012, 02:16 AM   #20
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yohann koldheart wrote:

niteowl53 wrote:

So the question still remains, What is SoE's Official stance on selling Game Cards in game for plat?

/awaits answer

the question doesent still remain at all, for anyone to think they have to comment on the same topic over and over is rediculous.

smokejumper himself posted in at least 2 other threads on the same topic saying it was alowed, aslong as somone dont set up a website and put a hard value on SC.

he said to do it at your own risk and that its not supported

here just because people are to lazy to look for them selves.

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We really don't want to put a hard value on platinum to SC conversion rates, so we would probably only step in on this if we thought it was going to cause us legal headaches in the future. So...if kept on the low-down, it'll never cause problems. But if someone put up a website selling items officially with posted conversion rates, I have a feeling that legal might want to step in and stop it to avoid issues.

Make sense? Keep it person-to-person and I don't think this will ever be an issue.

  

So, if it's "legal" and okay with them that it goes on, then the next question is, When player commits outright fraud against another player ingame, what are they going to do about it.  By letting this go on, they have in effect already put a "hard vlue" on plat to sc conversion rates. anyone who buys sells cards or just watches the auction channel, knows how much to pay for a card. It is standardized. Why would it need to be kept on teh "low-down" if it is legal to do in game? Me selling you crack in game is the same thing as me selling you crack on a website, either way it's dealing drugs. I really don't see the difference.   They want to allow it, but not be responsible for the fraud that comes with it. Hopefully they will do something about this, if not.....then anyone can just make toons and rip off anyone they want at will...with no repercussions what so ever, is that what they are going to say....open season for scammers to scam EQ2 players?

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Old 04-29-2012, 02:53 AM   #21
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its been goin on since soe thought up SC, and put the cards out. players asked for the ability to sell items off the sc market so soe added the ability to gift most of the stuff on it .

this isnt as big of a problem as some make it out to be , if you bought SC from a low level unguilded toon you asked for it.

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Old 04-29-2012, 03:40 AM   #22
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It's quite simple1. Plat for SC sales is not legal or illegal it's a bit of a grey area, it will probably remain that way.

2. If you buy from a player character you will stand a chance of being scammed.

3. Customer support will not  do anything about it if you are scammed and it is a case of player beware, this was already stated by smokejumper and has been repeatedly reitterated by players on the forums many times.

4. If you've unhappy about those conditions do not buy station cash from Player Characters for Plat.

The only thing that would happen, is if they made it illegal, they would police it and the buyer AND seller would be banned, but I doubt that they can afford the manpower now to do this,  coming to the forum to whinge is not going to do anything at all , no matter how often the same argument is used in different ways.

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Old 04-29-2012, 03:51 AM   #23
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niteowl53 wrote:

yohann koldheart wrote:

niteowl53 wrote:

So the question still remains, What is SoE's Official stance on selling Game Cards in game for plat?

/awaits answer

the question doesent still remain at all, for anyone to think they have to comment on the same topic over and over is rediculous.

smokejumper himself posted in at least 2 other threads on the same topic saying it was alowed, aslong as somone dont set up a website and put a hard value on SC.

he said to do it at your own risk and that its not supported

here just because people are to lazy to look for them selves.

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We really don't want to put a hard value on platinum to SC conversion rates, so we would probably only step in on this if we thought it was going to cause us legal headaches in the future. So...if kept on the low-down, it'll never cause problems. But if someone put up a website selling items officially with posted conversion rates, I have a feeling that legal might want to step in and stop it to avoid issues.

Make sense? Keep it person-to-person and I don't think this will ever be an issue.

  

So, if it's "legal" and okay with them that it goes on, then the next question is, When player commits outright fraud against another player ingame, what are they going to do about it.  By letting this go on, they have in effect already put a "hard vlue" on plat to sc conversion rates. anyone who buys sells cards or just watches the auction channel, knows how much to pay for a card. It is standardized. Why would it need to be kept on teh "low-down" if it is legal to do in game? Me selling you crack in game is the same thing as me selling you crack on a website, either way it's dealing drugs. I really don't see the difference.   They want to allow it, but not be responsible for the fraud that comes with it. Hopefully they will do something about this, if not.....then anyone can just make toons and rip off anyone they want at will...with no repercussions what so ever, is that what they are going to say....open season for scammers to scam EQ2 players?

It's not illegal, but it's not supported.  Because they've come out and said that, you're right, they won't be held responsible for fraud that comes with it, with the exception of when they had the problems with stolen credit cards being used to purchase SC.  But that's a completely different system.

SOE has also always had the standpoint that trades being done outside of the standard trade system are not supported.  You give someone the codes, they cash them in, and don't give you the plat, as far as they're concerned, nothing changed hands.  EQ1, whenever you paid someone to Multiquest something with you, where you gave them the plat, and they turned in the item, same deal.  As soon as you hit accept, as far as they were concerned you agreed to all terms and took the risks of being scammed if what you were receiving wasn't actually in the trade window.

It's the same as if you gave someone a stack of rares to make experts with and as soon as you traded them over without receiving the experts and they logged out with your rares, technically, you agreed to the trade where you received nothing.

It's not open season, it's about being smart about how you're going to do it.  Do I care for the practice, not really.  But there are certainly steps you can take to protect yourself if you're going to participate, either as a buyer or seller.

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Old 04-29-2012, 05:52 AM   #24
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niteowl53 wrote:

yohann koldheart wrote:

niteowl53 wrote:

So the question still remains, What is SoE's Official stance on selling Game Cards in game for plat?

/awaits answer

the question doesent still remain at all, for anyone to think they have to comment on the same topic over and over is rediculous.

smokejumper himself posted in at least 2 other threads on the same topic saying it was alowed, aslong as somone dont set up a website and put a hard value on SC.

he said to do it at your own risk and that its not supported

here just because people are to lazy to look for them selves.

Exec. Producer  Joined: Aug 8, 2005Messages: 1068Offline 

We really don't want to put a hard value on platinum to SC conversion rates, so we would probably only step in on this if we thought it was going to cause us legal headaches in the future. So...if kept on the low-down, it'll never cause problems. But if someone put up a website selling items officially with posted conversion rates, I have a feeling that legal might want to step in and stop it to avoid issues.

Make sense? Keep it person-to-person and I don't think this will ever be an issue.

  

So, if it's "legal" and okay with them that it goes on, then the next question is, When player commits outright fraud against another player ingame, what are they going to do about it.  By letting this go on, they have in effect already put a "hard vlue" on plat to sc conversion rates. anyone who buys sells cards or just watches the auction channel, knows how much to pay for a card. It is standardized. Why would it need to be kept on teh "low-down" if it is legal to do in game? Me selling you crack in game is the same thing as me selling you crack on a website, either way it's dealing drugs. I really don't see the difference.   They want to allow it, but not be responsible for the fraud that comes with it. Hopefully they will do something about this, if not.....then anyone can just make toons and rip off anyone they want at will...with no repercussions what so ever, is that what they are going to say....open season for scammers to scam EQ2 players?

Lol what he said is ground enough to get soe sued right now

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Old 04-30-2012, 02:17 AM   #25
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not exactly i mean you cant flat out sue or put someone in jail just because one said they did this or that especially without creditable proof of this happening, but SOE also state to never use black market trades because SOE is not responsable for any loses, for people putting up site exc.... all you can do is report it and block it and never think of using a black market trading again. you can never really eliminate black market it will always be around but you cant randomly start acusing people for it because theres always that time you can be wrong.

Can there be something done about it no not really. The only thing you can do is be wise and smart be the better person and not accept those types of trades. But when you see people doing it you go to those right away before making that trade and tell them its not worth it you will just get scammed it will drop the ball on those type of people quickly.

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Old 04-30-2012, 05:08 AM   #26
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Gravy wrote:

So, since two totally different game companies can make this process secure, why can't SoE?

Youy've used the words "SOE" and "secure" in the same sentence. Now think a bit about it ...

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Old 04-30-2012, 05:19 AM   #27
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There is no guarantee that a high level/guilded toon won't scam you.  AB has a couple that are level 90 and have scammed several folks.

Of course buying from a level 1 unguilded, freshly made toon doesn't give any warm feelings, but the other doesn't always guarantee an honest seller.

I thought about buying sc this weekend, but I'm just too chicken to do it.  So I went ahead and just took a drive to wal-mart.

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Old 04-30-2012, 10:52 PM   #28
Ciara52

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I've sold items for plat from the sc store.  I am unguilded too and have never cheated anyone.

I usually go to SS by the mailbox so they can get the mail right away and then pay me.  It goes both ways as I

take a chance on mailing first in good faith.  I've never been cheated and hope I never am.  But it is a chance I take.

As to is it legal well no one has come right out and said I can't do it so I do if I have excess SC at the time.

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Old 05-02-2012, 01:48 PM   #29
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What I understand from SJ's post on this is kinda

"here you have SC to buy neat things you can also easily scam other users with it although you shouldn't because fraud is forbidden by our guidelines but still, as long as you keep the scamming player-to-player and don't bother us with it, don't worry - just don't make a website"

which I find rather  -ing.

Sounds like:

...here you have guns, but please keep the killing on a person-to-person rate and don't set up a website for killing

as long as noone sets up a website we won't enforce given laws, even though we made these laws...

k, maybe the comparison is not the best but that's what comes to my mind. SMILEY

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Old 05-02-2012, 02:10 PM   #30
Aurorrae
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Part of the issue, as highlighted by SJ's post, is a legal matter.  While I don't practice in the area of banking law specifically, I think that once SC to plat, then you get into currency trading and securities law issue.  The plat that you just bought has value - and that value will fluctuate on the market.  Really, it would be no different than trading in a foreign currency - albeit a foreign currency that's spendable only online, but it now has real world value and would regulated as such.  So long as those trades are private so there is no market mechanism for the currency trade, these issues aren't there.

If you look at the GW2 mechanics for this from this weekends beta, its not just a simple box to buy and sell.  There's a good deal of market data on historical values and such, and I would assume that part of that is due to this issue.  It may be easier for them to do as a new game where they can start from zero than it would be to try to figure out to to implement it in an existing game.

Just some educated guesses.

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