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Old 10-15-2009, 03:57 AM   #1
Ratche

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Is it intentional that frostburn from Earring of Intuitive Reflux will not proc when wearing any mutagenic burst gear?  It also does not modify the mutagenic burst gear.  For reference, pieces I've tested this with: Signet of Kurn's Army, Burning Lavastud, Bone Knuckled Gauntlets and Mighty Hauberk.

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Old 10-15-2009, 10:49 AM   #2
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Historically there have always been a host of stacking issues when it comes to procs of this type.  The Hood of Chaotic Manipulation's Chaos Burst doesn't stack with any "Detonation" proc, and Mutagenic Burst items didn't used to stack with Detonation either.   Now Frost Burn isn't stacking....

  To summarize, Please make ALL of the AoE Damage Shield effects work together:

Detonation

Chaos Burst

Mutagenic Burst

Frost Burn

And any more that get added in.  

  The appeal of these items is the fact that you can keep adding many of them to have some nice AoE damage.   If they don't stack then they are garbage.  

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Old 10-15-2009, 12:02 PM   #3
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Please fix this issue because really this is the only item in the whole zone that I have put on my wish list, including the items from Enraged Haladen.  Proc nerf already killed it so it is only worth wearing 1 piece of mutagenic gear for AE fights.  Now the only reason this earring was actually appealing for those AE fight situations was the understanding that it is a different proc, hence it should stack with mutagenic.  Otherwise, I guess it goes back to this whole zone not having anything my tank is going to want.

Anyway, please fix this so that the proc goes off seperately from Mutagenic, like one is led to believe.

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Old 10-16-2009, 05:27 PM   #4
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These effects are not meant to stack (they're the exact same proc with a different damagfe type). They should modify each other, however, and have been updated to do so. I'll try to get this pushed with the next hotfix, but it may not be in until the next game update.

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Old 10-16-2009, 07:09 PM   #5
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thats makes having more than 1 type of those items compleatly worthless.

if ya didnt mean them to be diferant efects then dont give them diferant names.

all your doing by puting in procs that override eachother is makeing other items compleatly useless.

and by making them have diferant names with has basikly always in the past ment thay would stack you are missleading people to think that items have more value than thay actualy do its like having it so only 1 type of bane can proc at all so you couldnt have void bane and undead bane   just bane.

how many more times are ya gonna nerf procs to the point that all items have a proc named proc and you can only have 1 proc even if its one every peice of gear.

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Old 10-17-2009, 01:08 AM   #6
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Fyreflyte wrote:

These effects are not meant to stack (they're the exact same proc with a different damagfe type). They should modify each other, however, and have been updated to do so. I'll try to get this pushed with the next hotfix, but it may not be in until the next game update.

No they are not the exact same proc.  They have different names, just like Chaos Burst and Detonation. 

Since when is a proc with a different name and different damage not supposed to stack?  I spent alot of dkp on this earring based on looking at it...  It's pretty lame to hear now that it's not going to stack with mutagenic burst.  After all, Chaos Burst and Detonation are the same type of proc, yet they stack with mutagenic burst, so why is Frostburn different? 

 From now on, when an item is not going to actually DO what the description SAYS it does... can you warn people before they spend all their dkp on this stuff?

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Old 10-17-2009, 02:46 AM   #7
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Fyreflyte wrote:

These effects are not meant to stack (they're the exact same proc with a different damagfe type). They should modify each other, however, and have been updated to do so. I'll try to get this pushed with the next hotfix, but it may not be in until the next game update.

basikly destroyed the value of that an other items with 1 sentance.

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Old 10-17-2009, 04:26 AM   #8
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Fyreflyte wrote:

These effects are not meant to stack (they're the exact same proc with a different damagfe type). They should modify each other, however, and have been updated to do so. I'll try to get this pushed with the next hotfix, but it may not be in until the next game update.

+1 for worst item designer of the year.

You've got to be freaking kidding.  How can you possibly sit there in your little cubicle and come up with this stuff and think that it's fair and worthwhile to do so?

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Old 10-17-2009, 10:18 AM   #9
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Well you started out with a good idea but as usual you ruined it. Why even make it a different proc name, what does it matter the damage type? You could have kept them independant and able to stack. Without procs critting its not like you could even get out of hand with this.

More awesome itemization from Fireflyte the great!

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Old 10-17-2009, 11:04 AM   #10
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Soe hiring? My pet gold fish is looking for a job.
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Old 10-17-2009, 01:52 PM   #11
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Fyreflyte wrote:

These effects are not meant to stack (they're the exact same proc with a different damagfe type). They should modify each other, however, and have been updated to do so. I'll try to get this pushed with the next hotfix, but it may not be in until the next game update.

Seriously?  This is ridiculous and all I can say is thank goodness it hasn't dropped yet so I didn't waste DKP thinking that the item would actually be useful and work as it sounds.  Guess I can stick with my Charm that drops off a mob that is almost solo'able in a group zone.

Fix it so that it procs independently from Mutagenic so the item is actually useful and than there is actually something worth grabbing in the zone for a tank.  I mean the only other item I want in the whole zone is from Miragul, the charm.  Everything else is below what is already obtained in other instances for a tank.  Even enraged Haladen drops a shield that is not nearly as good as the Ykesha shield...that makes sense.

Do us a favor, if you are not going to make it proc independently just give it the Mutagenic proc name so that we can tell right away.  It makes no sense right now that a proc that is named something entirely different and does a completely different type of damage is considered to be a stack with another proc.

EDIT: Do you realize since the proc nerf that 1 piece of burst gear is all that is worth wearing.  The appeal for the proc on multiple slots is not worth what same slot items give by a long shot.  To think I was actually excited that it seemed like there was a nice item in the zone.

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Old 10-17-2009, 02:18 PM   #12
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How much thought, planning, and testing, goes into itemization and its effects?This entire expansion has been absolutely dismal.

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Old 10-17-2009, 04:53 PM   #13
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Fyreflyte wrote:

These effects are not meant to stack (they're the exact same proc with a different damagfe type). They should modify each other, however, and have been updated to do so. I'll try to get this pushed with the next hotfix, but it may not be in until the next game update.

And why not exactly? Why even make them in the first place? Just make em all mutagenic burst if you put so little thought into that set of procs.

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Old 10-17-2009, 06:03 PM   #14
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God, you guys are a**holes. I get that you're upset, but re-read what you're writing and listen to how it sounds. And people wonder why devs don't like posting on the forums....

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Old 10-17-2009, 06:19 PM   #15
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I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with the design of having things like that not stack, but rather enhance each other. I do think the base values are much too low for the item to be desirable though, and the amount they improve each other by (20%, I think?) is too low. Most procs just globally need their damage at least doubled (in some cases would need to be quadrupled or more to be significant), and things like this should probably see like a 50% or 75% improvement for additional items, rather than the current 20%.

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Old 10-17-2009, 11:01 PM   #16
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Ya I mean who cares what the players want, I mean obviously these 2 procs stacking would break the game.  Its much better to stick to your guns and [Removed for Content] everyone off instead of listening to feedback and try to throw people a bone and let them have fun.........

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Old 10-18-2009, 06:09 PM   #17
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with the design of having things like that not stack, but rather enhance each other. I do think the base values are much too low for the item to be desirable though, and the amount they improve each other by (20%, I think?) is too low. Most procs just globally need their damage at least doubled (in some cases would need to be quadrupled or more to be significant), and things like this should probably see like a 50% or 75% improvement for additional items, rather than the current 20%.

75% to damage and 50% to proc chance increase and it might be a viable way to go but as it is its total garbage and a waist of itemeization and a total slap in the face by anyone who goes off the previosly corect asumtion of difearnt name = dif proc an will and should stack

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Old 10-19-2009, 11:28 AM   #18
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I'm starting to see a trend.   The trend is that items that appear to be very good, often turn out to get nerfed into oblivion, but only after people have invested weeks, or months worth of DKP into them.  

That is the problem here essentially.  There is no concern for the cost people have spent in aquiring these items... once you nerf them.  I am having less and less faith in the items that I can see with my own eyes, because tomorrow they could be completely different. 

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Old 10-19-2009, 11:34 AM   #19
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Fyreflyte wrote:

These effects are not meant to stack (they're the exact same proc with a different damagfe type). They should modify each other, however, and have been updated to do so. I'll try to get this pushed with the next hotfix, but it may not be in until the next game update.

Unless you can provide some sort of feedback on the item examine regarding what it does and doesn't stack with, you've really need to just name the effects the same.

It is grossly unfair to your players to do otherwise.

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Old 10-19-2009, 12:39 PM   #20
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As a non-mind reader, I think it is worth pointing out that if you intend new effects to not stack with existing effects, you should let us know before we loot an item with said new effect.

I mean, you *could* just make sure everyone playing this game is indeed a mind reader, but it would be easier to simply put a note on the item that it does not stack with other effects.

If that is not possible, they should stack as would be expected.

Looting items in a raid setting, only to find they do not function as would be assumed really does = teh suck.

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Old 10-19-2009, 01:52 PM   #21
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Fyreflyte wrote:

These effects are not meant to stack (they're the exact same proc with a different damagfe type). They should modify each other, however, and have been updated to do so. I'll try to get this pushed with the next hotfix, but it may not be in until the next game update.

Your ability to fail on itemization continues to amaze me.

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Old 10-19-2009, 11:47 PM   #22
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The correct answer is "Alright after further analysis this proc IS actually supposed to stack with the others.  It will be fixxed right away".

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Old 10-20-2009, 03:31 AM   #23
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Some sort of way to easily determine item stacking would be pretty keen. Ideally they'd have some sort of message when you examine it and you already have a proc equipped that would block it, like a blue message under Frostburn that would say, 'This effect would not stack with the Mutagenic Burst effect you already have' or some such. It'd hopefully prevent items from having pages of stacking issues listed in their description, but let players at a glance see if there'd be a problem.

I don't think the item itself is that bad for what drops it, though. It's not like Xaxia is a beast, afterall. I think the proc probably does way less damage than it should, but that's just sort of a global problem of procs right now in general.

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Old 10-20-2009, 10:24 AM   #24
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Some sort of way to easily determine item stacking would be pretty keen. Ideally they'd have some sort of message when you examine it and you already have a proc equipped that would block it, like a blue message under Frostburn that would say, 'This effect would not stack with the Mutagenic Burst effect you already have' or some such. It'd hopefully prevent items from having pages of stacking issues listed in their description, but let players at a glance see if there'd be a problem.

I don't think the item itself is that bad for what drops it, though. It's not like Xaxia is a beast, afterall. I think the proc probably does way less damage than it should, but that's just sort of a global problem of procs right now in general.

I almost agree with you.  Yes the item drops from a mob that isn't too bad, but is the 4th mob in so you do have to clear the couple mobs before it that are tougher.  The other items in the zone for tanks completely blow.  I wasn't kidding when I said that this item(if it stacked with Mutagenic) and the Miragul charm are the only items in the whole zone I would even consider a slight upgrade.  Even the fighter items from Enraged Haladen are lack-luster compared to what you find elsewhere.  Example, Haladen shield.  Anybody killing enraged Haladen has already been killing Ykesha for a while.  Because of the tank intensity the fight is just as hard if not harder than Ykesha.  So why does it drop a shield that is not as good as Ykesha's?  Really its an appearance item not worth spending DKP on until there is nothing else.  We also had a fighter ring drop from Haladen.  Its not as good as the Jewel and Anashti ring.  For pure tanking nothing beat SoH ring.  So kill a tough mob for no upgrade to gear.

This earring is simply situational gear that I would have wore a lot, if it was an issue with Mutagenic.  Its only good when tanking big AE fights because its not going to be as good as the other ears for ST.  I just really think they are missing the ball here and this proc that is named completely different and even has a different type of damage, cold v disease, should stack with Mutagenic.  Its definitely not going to break the game, and even with these 2 different procs up at the same time they are not going to come close to what Mutagenic was doing pre-proc nerf.

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Old 10-20-2009, 10:25 AM   #25
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EDIT: Ooops double post

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Old 10-22-2009, 06:49 PM   #26
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when good items go bad next on eq2

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Old 10-23-2009, 05:09 PM   #27
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[email protected] wrote:

Unless you can provide some sort of feedback on the item examine regarding what it does and doesn't stack with, you've really need to just name the effects the same.

I've talked to the coders quite a bit about this, and their short answer is that there's no way to fit it in with their current workload. It's something I'd definitely like to see in the future, so I'll hit them up again after the expansion is out. In the meantime, one of the other designers has put in quite a bit of time standardizing the naming and stacking of effects for the next expansion. By name alone, it should be apparent which buffs stack with which, and in tricky cases we'll try to include some extra text to indicate buff types that won't stack.

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Old 10-23-2009, 05:27 PM   #28
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if it was a pre known concern why put in a item deliberatly misleading the players to think it was an item that should stack by having a diferant name and you still have items that stack with a similer proc and some that dont witch is totaly stupid there in no way of identifying what stacks and dosnt and you knew this and left it that way.

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Old 10-23-2009, 05:28 PM   #29
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So basically you have been done with TSO loot changes since the avatar gear nerf?

Im sure many already put that together, but thats for anyone who did not.

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Old 10-23-2009, 05:29 PM   #30
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Fyreflyte wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Unless you can provide some sort of feedback on the item examine regarding what it does and doesn't stack with, you've really need to just name the effects the same.

I've talked to the coders quite a bit about this, and their short answer is that there's no way to fit it in with their current workload. It's something I'd definitely like to see in the future, so I'll hit them up again after the expansion is out. In the meantime, one of the other designers has put in quite a bit of time standardizing the naming and stacking of effects for the next expansion. By name alone, it should be apparent which buffs stack with which, and in tricky cases we'll try to include some extra text to indicate buff types that won't stack.

That would be awesome.

Gear selection is by far the most complicated part of EQ2, and anything that standardizes the information comming to us in that regard improves our experience significantly.

I can't tell you how many hours have been wasted in vent just explaining what your current item descriptions really say vs what they really do.

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