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Old 09-26-2006, 04:22 AM   #1
Didi

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Thread for opinions and thoughts from today's play test ... in hopes of keeping comments mostly in one place.  Post below!
 
 
After a lot of testing of actual lag and population issues, Glendral gathererd folks at the Claymore monument in NQ and asked a few questions:
  • Say in Elddar Grove, where there aren't really any buildings of any type of merchants, would you want to see a little tradeskill area set up, rather than trying to fit them into the buildings like they are now.  These would be in adddition to anything else, including instances or the like?
  • Would you rather see 1 of each type of station in a village, or each village be a specific one (type of station) if we added them to the villages/hoods ?
  • if we had one of each type (or more) of crafting station in villages/hoods (not in instances) plus banker/broker/etc., would just the main tradeskill instances (Ironforges/Coalition) be enough?
When asked WHY all these proposed changes, Glendral's response was:  "We really just want to try and make crafting more of the community, rather than the hidden thing in the basement" and "The crafters are their own community, but separated from the adventurers.  We want to try and make it one big community."
 
He also added, "Thanks again for the feedback, we will be discussing this.  I'll try to post on the forums when we have reached a decision."

---

Personal opinions:

I think the testing proved pretty conclusively that outdoor crafting stations in only the main city zones is going to have serious performance issues.  Having the stations there in ADDITION to other stations elsewhere would be ok, but they can't be the only option as it is on test now.  Crafters were reporting they were unable to counter events, FRAPS showed my own framerate was dropping down to 1 fps in the worst areas and often around 12-15, whereas normal would be in the 30-40 area.  The buildings are too small and crowded for many crafters to fit into, and Sneed's was just a nightmare with the broker plus crafting stations together.

I think the main issue is the reduction in the number of available crafting areas, whether they're instanced or overland.  Currently if I want a loom in Qeynos, I have a choice of 3 looms in each of 6 newbie zone instances plus Ironforge Exchange.  That's 21 looms, in 7 locations, all of them close to fuel vendors, brokers, and writ givers.  If one area is crowded, it's easy to head to another.  The new layout provides far fewer stations and far fewer zones.  Any good solution will need to provide as many different location options as we currently have, and they need to have the same easy accessibility to NPCs, broker, and bank.

Regarding the point that crafters are isolated -- I strongly feel this is a false perception.  Physically, we may be sitting in crafting dungeons; but we aren't limited to speaking with people where we physically are.  Most conversation crafters have (indeed, most conversation anyone in this game has) is not affected by where they physically are, but takes place in channels, guild chat, group chat --- methods of communication not limited by physical location.  How often do you chat with someone next to you in /say, no matter whether you are a crafter or an adventurer?  Far more likely you're chatting in guild, and in channels.

This is very true for crafters.  On most servers I've visited the crafting channels is viewed by many non-crafters as an excellent place to come to for friendly advice on all areas of the game, often quite unrelated to crafting.  People hang out in there who have no intention of ever crafting.  Crafters also lurk in the level channels and offer advice and opinions on all things crafting and non-crafting.  Personally, while I'm crafting I am normally chatting in the crafting channel, chatting in guild, and watching the newbie and level 1-9 channel for newbie questions I can help with.  I can't count the number of lost newbies I've helped with random questions, and then sent a couple of strong boxes to help them on their way.

Taking crafters out of the instances will not have any affect on how social they are or how they interact with the community.  One's physical location has nothing at all to do with who one interacts with in this game.  Crafters are generally already very outgoing and social, regardless of where we are physically crafting.  I think the fundamental statement of intention (to make crafters a bigger part of the community by moving them out of the instances) is flawed.  Being in the basements is not stopping them from being that, and moving them out will not help make them more so.

That said, I have no objection to moving out of the instances *if it's no reduction in convenience* and I expect that adding a full set of the crafting machines to newbie villages above ground instead of underground will work just fine.  Nicer view, and one less zone to reach the bank, that's got to be good.  But I truly don't think it will have any effect on the community interaction between crafters and non-crafters (which I think is already much higher than the devs apparently think it is).

One final, very essential note, however:  if crafting stations are going to go overland in villages, mounts need to be disabled in the village zones once again.  Ideally, mounts would be disabled in all city zones but we would keep the run speed buff.  If that's not possible however, disabling the mounts in newbie villages would be good enough.  But I really don't feel we can have crafting stations and brokers in the newbie zones and still have mounts visible -- the amount of lag, not to mention just the size of some of those ogre mounts, would make it horrible.

Message Edited by Didi on 09-26-2006 11:52 AM

Message Edited by Didi on 09-26-2006 11:57 AM

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Old 09-26-2006, 04:30 AM   #2
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First, thank you very much Glendral for taking the time to gather us around and ask how we felt.
 
Second: as suspected, it was very laggy. And crowded and cramped.
 
Third: I am probably  in a minority that enjoys crafting outdoors (has seen how good that can be in other games.)
 
However, I must note:   I  agree with Neeta above. Community also occurs in chat channels, not just physically. As I said in NQ, the crafting community I am a part of takes place in the crafting chat channel. I have formed friendships with people I have never seen in game. The crafting chat channel on my server is also the place where a lot of players come looking for overall game advice. And where I, and many other crafters offer advice to all sorts of level of players (including new ones), via the other chat channels. Keeping an eye on chat, and being able to chat while crafting (in non-lag situations) is part of the joy of crafting.
 
Fourth: Keeping easy / quick access to crafting (all tables), mailboxes, broker, banker and apartments is important.
 
Fifth:  An outdoor crafting area with access (see above) as long as it is not in a major city zone (please avoid NQ, SQ, QH) is acceptable.  Please disenable mounts in this zone!
 
Sixth: As long as (for other crafters): there are additional crafting stations/broker available in the starting villages. I personally don't care if those are via an instance or outside (under awnings). I understand many crafters like the cozy, get-away-from-it-all feel of the TS. I support them. They are part of my community.  If, in order to save space, the instances need to be reduced to 1 station only each per craft,   I can support that as well. :smileyhappy:
 
 
 
 
Edit: one last comment:
 
 
I would like to be to see/test whatever the new design is, if that is possible. Thank you.
 

- Summeraire

 

 

 

Message Edited by Goldenflight on 09-25-2006 05:50 PM

Message Edited by Goldenflight on 09-25-2006 05:56 PM

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Old 09-26-2006, 04:34 AM   #3
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Quite a few people showed up.  NQ was over 100 the entire time... at one point there were 140 people between levels 1 and 30 alone.

The bad news, many reported long load times and crashes.  I can attest that it took well over 15 seconds for objects to load around the forge.  Also with as many as a dozen crowded around some craftng stations I'm certain finding the clibboards for invoices was challenging and possibly impossible depending on who parked near them.

The good news.  Writs were doable.  I was four for four with the armorer and one for one with the carpenter through the event, with time to spare.  This was crafting on a flying carpet with a mushroom pet out and using the most shiny/glowy objects I could equip while others ran around on horses with numerous pets.  Stress is an understatement! SMILEY  Time remaining was less than my normal timed writs, but within comfort zone.  That said, I'm not sure it would have worked with my alchemist as writs frequently have six unique combines.  I have no idea of 150-200 people in a zone is normal on live (I'm guessing not, but it is feasible it could happen).

I appreciated the opportunity to provide feedback and discussion, the 'town hall' at the Claymore was nice.

General thoughts:

- At least one instance would be good

- Balanced amenities per village are critical

- The clipboards need to be bigger objects if the stations can get crowded

- It's possible that all instances should be left in, at least for a time, and phased out (or reduced to the Ironforge only option) if usage shifts to outdoor zones.

- We didn't have rain during the playtest, it's absolutely critical that load testing occurs in actual play conditions.  This concerns me.

I can see some variant of this option working, but it needs to be phased in very slowly and deliberately.

Interesting session though.

 

 

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Old 09-26-2006, 04:36 AM   #4
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I will post my general feedback when I calm down.

2 things put me off the whole thing.

1 - Devs forcing different playstyles to mix by taking away something that works from 1 of them.

2 - The dev that oversaw the playtest used a character that was unskilled in tradeskills. I did an inspeck Lvl 33 adventure..unskilled tradeskill.

 

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Old 09-26-2006, 04:44 AM   #5
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Well, as an Alchemist, I can tell you, it wasn't possible to do the writs.  I ended up with failures on each I tried, whereas I have never failed a writ prior to today except when I tried talking during writting.

The conversation at the end was hopeful.

If the only reason for doing this is to force people to socialize, then it's being done for the wrong reason.  No one likes being forced to do anything.  Look at the amount of angst you get when grouping was forced.

Several options mentioned by Glendral's posts were interesting.  One of which was each village had a specific type of craft assigned to it (all open air, but with Ironforge and Coaltion as the only tradeskill instances as we knew it).  If that was the case, and the outside the city zones were added too (TS, CL, etc) then it could be workable.  Certainly more workable than the current fiasco.

All in all though, the original set up was best, but adding the option to craft in the open air would have been a better choice.  As I said, if the only reason for doing away with these instances were to force a community atmosphere, then it will be doomed to failure. 

As stated by many people, the instances themselves were a community in itself, and people did socialize within those instances, a lot more than they did in towns.

If for some reason we are forced into this situation exactly as it is right now on test, then the guild requirements for the tradeskill benches need to be removed, and their cost substantially lowered.

I liked crafting prior to this change, now I feel like I am enduring it.

 

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Old 09-26-2006, 04:46 AM   #6
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The Tradeskill changes idea sucks, and here's why:

You say that you want to bring crafters out of their dungeons, and make crafting more a part of the community...

Unfortunately, it's a little late for that and you might have wanted to consider the ramifications when you started making most dropped items in the game far more desireable than anything crafters could hope to make.

Adventurers simply do NOT need crafters anymore, with the exception of possibly drinks and repair kits, and maybe a totem thrown in here and there.

Even without the level cap, most players want THE BEST for their characters. Therefore, they are focused almost exclusively on raiding and "getting their toons relic'd, mastered, and fabled".  If you take two characters of the same level and class but one is decked out in Mastercrafted gear with Adept 3's, and the other is decked out in Masters and fabled gear, who do you think is going to get picked last for dodgeball? Even named mobs are farmed because they drop better items than crafters can make with high chances of masters dropping.

If you are truly, seriously interested in making crafters a vital part of the community AS A WHOLE, then you need to focus on the real issue: THE QUALITY OF THEIR PRODUCTS! Not the fact that they craft in instanced zones.

And those instanced zones, as that LAGFEST we just went through known as the Playtest showed, are necessary not only to cut down on the lag which can cause crafters to miss reactives and lose pristine crafts on rare items (not to mention timed writs), but also can cause non-crafters just as much grief as they are lagged all to heck just trying to traverse those same zones.

And please don't forget the crafters who happen to enjoy the relative peace and quiet of those crafting zones -- away from the duels, the NPC chat spam...  Just a place to go where they can focus on their work...

Honestly, I applaud you for wanting to "help" crafters become a larger presence in the EQ2 community as a whole.  But this forcing them to craft out in the open like animals on display in a zoo, isn't the solution.

It's the products they're making that is the issue...

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Old 09-26-2006, 04:50 AM   #7
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I posted this in the other thread, i'll CC it here (and I second everything Didi said) :Glendral,The changes suck. Here's why.First, the framerate lag in Qeynos and Freeport is higher than most every zone in the game. Especially on lower end machines that barely meet system requirements, traversing the city proper literally means taking 5 or 10 minutes to get from one end of the zone to the other. Moving your character in such an environment is very hit or miss, and NOT fun. Even higher end systems sometimes struggle to keep up. That's before you start gathering large amounts of people in one area.Second, it always seems that zones poorly handle a large number of people in them as far as network latency goes. This is always a reoccuring issue when zone populations reach near triple digits, and it starts to affect spell casts and combat arts. When tradeskill instances start to get laggy, the network latency is often large enough to make you miss your reaction arts to counter tradeskill events.Third, as for what's on Test right now, the placement of many stations is very poor and doesn't work well with the way the cities are designed. In order for it to work, MANY buildings would need to undergo major architectural revamps to avoid players getting stuck either by objects like tables and desks, pets, NPCs, or other players. Also, in the case of classes that use multiple stations (especially Carpenters), they are MUCH too spread far apart, and absolutely need to be closer.In the playtest you stated "The crafters are there own community, but separated from the adventurers. We want to try and make it one big community." I myself have several problems with that statement. First, crafting is, by definition, separate from adventuring. They help each other, but they are sometimes mutually exclusive goals. When an adventurer wants crafted gear he seeks a crafter because he wants to buy goods. However, a crafter will rarely seek an adventurer and try to sell goods to that adventurer, except maybe through the global chat channels. Part of the reason may be because Artisans are hiding in dungeons, but the biggest reason is because of the huge parity between crafted gear and very common mob dropped gear. Removing the instances may expose the artisan community more, but it won't help the underlying problem of crafted gear being undesirable compared to common mob drops.The crafting community on Test seems VERY united in what they want: Keep the status quo as it is, because it works and it works extremely well. Few are opposed to the idea of putting crafting stations in the city proper as a choice (along with other essentials such as bankers, brokers, fuel merchants, and the like), but almost all seem opposed to removing the instances completely.You said one possibility is to keep the Ironforge Exchange, and the Coalition of Tradefolk. However, if you keep those two instances only, and remove the rest (no matter how you decide to implement it), you will see the vast majority of crafters flocking to these instances to get away from the framerate lag fest in the city proper.Any zone that has crafting stations needs crafting stations in locations that make sense for them to be, are easy to get to without getting stuck, and need excellent proximity to a mailbox, fuel vendor, bank, broker, writ givers, and all other crafting stations that a player will likely use. Right now, none of the city zones meet all these requirements. If it were to go Live tomorrow, it would be a complete disaster for the Tradeskill community.I would also like to add that I would pay 100 plat and 50 million status points to have my own personal fuel merchant in my house, so I could craft there in peace!

Message Edited by Xalmat on 09-25-2006 05:56 PM

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Old 09-26-2006, 04:50 AM   #8
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1. Having crafting stations other than in instances will cause the zone to lag the population gets large.

2. If you put just stations in the villages, it will be awful at night with people on horses, carpets, pets etc. --it will be impossible to craft and do writs. You saw that tonight in Qeynos.

3. Also lag will increase when it rains if you put the stations outdoors.

4. Instances are convenient as everything is neatly packaged in one zone which had one purpose -- CRAFTING.

5. People will be running all over the zones if you make outdoor crafting stations and getting in each other ways during peak hours.

6. I think you should leave everything the way it is. Put stations in the outdoor zones if you want but leave the newbie villages and main town instances as they are now. Don't try to fix what isn't broken!

7. It is not the job of SOE to dictate how people socialize or if and when they socialize. I am not sure why you think crafting and adventuring must be forcibly co-mingled. Remember how well forced grouping went over? Well this smacks of the same thing. Forcing changes of behaviour on people is usually disastrous especially in a game where people go to have fun. Maybe they don't feel like socializing -- forcing radical changes on players will end up costing you customers.

I am not even sure why you care, or if you should care whether adventuring and crafting are co-mingled? What is the purpose in that? Are you changing the direction of the game? Remember you have made it better for players who solo -- is some new grand social scheme going to make you change game play so people can no longer solo?

Let me repeat:To me the reason you gave smacks too much of Socialism -- the USSR demonstrated it did not work, EQ1 showed you what a disaster "forced grouping" was.  Game designers have no business trying to create forced socializing environments -- players who want to socialize will, those who don't won't and if you try to make them they will cancel their account. Is that what you really want to have happen?

 

 

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Old 09-26-2006, 04:53 AM   #9
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It was nice to see proof that the devs do listen, at least when a lot of players agree on something :smileyhappy:
 
I don't mind the idea of having the stations outdoors in the villages, it always seemed odd to me that you can't use the forges outside the armor shop in NQ. Personally I've always found it annoying to have to zone back and forth to go to the bank or buy new books. That should probably be tested as this was tonight before going live. An announced playtest time like today would be nice.
 
They need to be close together and close to the writ givers. The current setup on test I can't see how you could possibly complete a rush order, and it definately gives an advantage to those who can afford higher runspeed enhancements.
 
I can understand the motivation for the changes, but given the way crafting works its important not to have lag. I'm always looking for the less crowded places to craft. Some instances already have too much lag, like Willow Wood. Maybe its me, but I find I miss more counters when its more crowded. A setup like Haven, where theres an area with all the crafting NPC's and stations seems ok to me. I'm not sure all the villages have an area that would work well for that though.
 
Anyway, it was really great to see the community jump in to test it, and provide feedback, and the devs listening and soliciting everyone's ideas. Nicely done, on both sides!
 
 
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 04:54 AM   #10
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The test was a disaster in my opinion.  I will explain:
 
1)  The lag was the worst I have ever seen.  I bought my computer to play EQII.  I have the best hardware available in November 2004, so the game should at least be playable.  I play one step below balanced to remove the grass and weeds look from the outdoors.  From the time I zoned in to NQ and visited the trainer, the broker, the bank, and the fuel merchant and finally made it to the keg & stove 35 minutes had elapsed. It was an EQII slideshow.
 
2)  I crafted 2 items and crashed to the desktop.  My 3.4 ghz, 256 GT6800 SE, and 1 GB of ram could not handle the load of people, pets, horses, and spell effects, etc.
 
3)  The crafting community is just fine.  No one wants this change.  We like our crafting instances.  Everything is perfectly organized and available.  As one astute player stated, perhaps there would be better community between crafter and adventurer if we had something to sell that an adventurer would want to buy.  Other than drinks, what does a crafter have to offer that cannot be easily obtained elsewhere, for free and at a higher quality?
 
4)  Forcing players to do anything is always a recipe for failure.  MMO's are about freedom of choice.  If I wanted a linear, structured game I would'nt be playing an MMO.
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Old 09-26-2006, 04:55 AM   #11
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I would enjoy 'outdoor' crafting, but having everything in one spot would seem to be a little silly. There are a lot of different options in Freeport that could make it much more immersive imo. As a jeweler, I would LOVE to go to the jewelry store in NFP and theres a couple of tables, some writ guys and a wholesaler, and craft away. The same could be said about the Alchemy shop right down the road. Take out the npc merchants and throw in a wholesaler and some writ guys, and bam it's heaven. I'd like that much more than seeing a set of tables around the bend in WFP sticking out like a sore thumb. But..still leave the instances the way they are. That way if say I don't want to  be bothered, I can run down into the cave and hide away. But if i feel like peddling my wares on the street, everyone knows to go to the jewelry store and find something they're looking for. As it has been since launch, I can't see why anyone would ever set foot in there for any reason. Take advantage of what's already there instead of throwing in some new stuff.The only thing i'd like to comment on as far as jewelers go is this. Put some minor resists back on jewelry. Stats are all well and good, but when i changed over from my pre-update T6 rare gear to T7 new gear, my stats improved greatly but my resists are down the toilet. I know the lockets and studs and all that are solely for filling this gap, but of all of those i have made, selling 1g for T5 commons, i've sold maybe 2 on the broker. There's never another one up to compete with me, people just don't want it.

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Old 09-26-2006, 05:00 AM   #12
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I for one am in a minority, playing on a less than stellar machine I expected crashes, ect.  What I got was long load and zoneing times, and a few fps issues here and there.  I like the new tradeskill out of the instance feel.   Leaveing in one instance (ironforge and coalition) would help I think alleviate some of the lag concerns, and let those with less then omg machines have a place to go.  I can honestly say atm if this went live tommorw, besides a few placement issues noted in other threads, I would be happy with it, and would craft outside rather than inside the hole.

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Old 09-26-2006, 05:10 AM   #13
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Make it like any other out of city zone (irongforge 1 or 2 or 3) and it MIGHT work, I say don't change it but if you must MAKE THEM INSTANCED. so we can avoid the lag that is coming
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Old 09-26-2006, 05:21 AM   #14
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Did anyone happen to ask if personal crafting stations were definitely staying in  the game?
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Old 09-26-2006, 05:57 AM   #15
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The concept of moving the tradeskillers "out of the dungeon" is not a bad one, but the execution of it has been exceptionally flawed.The bad:- Reducing the number of crafting stations overall and not having essential craft related services near the crafting stations (writ givers, tradeskill delegates/trainers, -proper- fuel merchants, bank, broker, etc) is nothing short of ludicrous.  It concentrates the tradeskillers nearer to the -few- places where they can find most (but never all, I noticed) services relatively close.- Putting the primary (most complete number of tradeskill stations and services) in the biggest city zones which have LONG been a source of lag complaints is a guarentee of disaster.- Having tradeskill stations with a crafting system relying on a small measure of player skill in timing events and counters and then putting those in places where mounts, rampent pets, duels, effects, etc are the norm means the skill of the player is negated by lag.- Having a tradeskill system reliant on being able to be within a close proximity of the tradeskill station and target it while other "distractions" are allowed creates even more problems.-Having -choices- of where to craft and having some of them include locations outside of "dungeons" is not a bad idea, it just should not be the only choice (only means no choice).The good:-Adding a -few- crafting stations to the main city zones (with at least one of each -and- services close by) to give it flavour is rather nice.  Having been in the Freeport zones before today's test (my not oft played Test character is Freeport based), I saw some rather nice placements of crafting stations that added to the ambiance and looked like they belonged (many though were horridly out of place and some had the wrong fuel or no fuel anywhere near).  -Having crafting stations out in the open might give the feel of more players since they won't be tucked away, hidden from view.The suggestions:-Have at least 1 crafting station per type outside of the instance in each of the villages/hoods, either inside -logical- buildings (either removing furniture already there and putting in the crafting stations.. like in some of the Freeport locations) or outside the building, and also have a delegate, trainer, writ givers, fuel seller, and broker.  Or if you want those to be 'starter' or convenience stations, have all the services except the writ givers (but still have the clipboards).-Have at least 1 of each crafting station type in each of the city zones, but only in -logical- locations, inside buildings or our, and with lots of room around them -and- mindful of the potential lag (in otherwords, not 3 or 4 different crafting stations in the same cramped building with the broker).  Also have all the services (delegate, trainer, writ givers, fuel sellers, clipboards, etc).-Retain an instance for the Tradeskill Coalition (kinda foolish to have -no- connection to tradeskills there as it is on Test currently) and the Ironforge estate.  That would be an available location for those people who have lag issues or who want a "quieter" atmosphere.  To keep it as an "option" but not the only choice, omit the broker there, but keep the rest, especially the writ givers, fuel merchant(s), and faction goods merchant.  That might make it a primary place for writs but not make it the only choice for tradeskilling.-Add tradeskill "nooks" in places like Windstalker village with or without the ability to easily do writs (but if no writ givers and the like, then their own crafting related quests or reasons to be chosen for crafting).But... note the number of tradeskill stations on Live now and don't have fewer than that even if they are in locations different than they are now.
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Old 09-26-2006, 06:08 AM   #16
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I would be able to give constructive feedback about the playtest, however, it was not at a convenient time for people that have to work for a living. 

But, from what I've read, there's probably no way that there could have been any good data because of outright lagging out and/or crashing that would have occured had they done a true playtest and not this one.

Also, what does it matter how the performance was?  The simple fact it that people don't care how it runs, they just don't want instances taken away.  That's the bottom line.

There is something about this idea that we have to come out and be a part of the "adventure" community that is really putting me out.  Do they have keggers in town that we are missing while we are down in the instances?  I don't get it.

 

Zaldor - I bought two collector's editions when this game came out for the tradeskilling, man was that dumb

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Old 09-26-2006, 06:15 AM   #17
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Crafting stations outdoor is a great idea   IN ADDITION to keeping the existing tradeskill instances.  Since most of my crafters ten tto be in teh mid 20s-mid 30s, I jump crafting stations a lot.  Sometimes my Sage goes back and makes fighter spells for friends, sometimes she makes jewelry...every once in awhile she skis down to the tier 1 stuff to make something for a brand new toon.  Making me run all over creation to get anything done does nothing for my immersion factor - in fact it takes away from it greatly.Getting people together into the tradeskill instances is nice.  ITs like going to work -- which a crafter would be doing.  I go to work , produce some goods.  I don't need to be out in the open, I don't need to be in the rain, I don't need those annoying people who think we are there just for them.  It makes it a bit easy for the adventuring type running by to be like "Make me this now".  I am an adventurer.  I am a crafter.  Let me keep my peaceful tradeskill instance for when i need to produce goods.  Make public outdoor stations for those that want them but don't take something we love away from the rest of us** oh and as a side note, since I play on a PvP server...I dont' really like the idea of my crafter being that out in the open - easy to attack.  Crafters are not front line kinda people....they are behind the scenes.  Yes there is a little danger in the instances but nothing like being out in the open of the city.  Please keep that in mind also

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Old 09-26-2006, 06:18 AM   #18
Kesah

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Voting NO as play tested tonight and over the weekend.
 
In response to the social aspects of crafting:    There are so many ways of going about bringing the communities together that it is difficult to answer. 
 
The short answer is of course Options. 
 
Long answer full of personal opinions are: 
 
Player made items that are desirable to purchase by adventurers.
 
Tradeskill instances in every zone along with the needed banks and brokers in each zone. This alone would get me to move into the city. If there were instances in every zone along with a bank and broker. Would not move for outside only crafting even with bankers and brokers. 
 
In addition to the instanced zones in every city and village zone, a bazaar or market with all the tables in one large building, under tent or whatever (no zone)  for crafters looking for work and adventurers looking for crafted goods. This needs to look like a bazaar or market not slinking into some business I do not own or have a relationship with to steal the use of their tools. This would NOT be a place you would do writs, just a place to act as a player based free market. You could do this in the villages or in any underutilized city zone. 
 
Ok, I kept it as short as possible. In summary Tradeskill Instance with bank and broker in every zone AND a outside bazaar or market for community crafting and trading. 
 
 
 
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Old 09-26-2006, 06:20 AM   #19
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OOC.
 
The Playtest
 
I took part in this with my own test character, Cerianna, a level 23 templar / level 22 sage, whom I brought along to Sneeds in North Qeynos, to work on a non-timed work order as part of this test.
 
There were at the height of the test, over 100 people in the zone.
 
The lag was very bad. Combines were taking a long time, and some counters were missed just due to the lag. It took me almost an hour to complete the work order (although this included a long search for the clipboards amongst the crowd of people (sigh) and several trips to the bank. The crowding around the workstation was incredibly bad, and the number of people (and mounts!) and their movement was upsetting my PC at times, causing me to crash to desktop with an out of memory error on one occasion. (I have a decent PC, 4GB RAM, 1GB graphics card, not the top of the range but not too bad, and no, it is not on top settings, just middling ones, which are fine for me 99.9% of the time on Antonia Bayle).
 
Then Glendral called us all to the Claymore to chat. The resulting crowd caused me just to keep crashing with graphics memory issues, so I gave up and logged back to Antonia Bayle to join the Test.test channel from there.
 
Comments on the Proposed Changes
 
Now for my comments on these proposed changes. I refer in the entire post to Qeynos (all my characters are good), but I imagine the situation is similar in Freeport as well. I will take some quotes made by Glendral during the event, and answer them (I missed most of his specific questions at the end due to the constant crashing). All times are in British Summer Time, if anyone wanted to know.
 
Two related comments (made seperately) :-
 
[Tue Sep 26 00:31:54 2006] Glendral says out of character, "im not saying that its exact, im just trying to explain that we want to test stuff so we can get feedback"
[Tue Sep 26 01:18:37 2006] Glendral BROADCASTS, "Posts such as "it sucks, here is why in a constructive manner, will be read."
 
Thank you sir. To use Glendral's own phrase, the changes *as currently implemented on Test* do indeed "SUCK" *chuckle*,  and I explain why in the words that follow.
 
[Tue Sep 26 00:52:20 2006] Glendral BROADCASTS, "We really do want people to get out of the tradeskill instances and into the cities so that your not stuck inside an instance seperated from people."
 
I am a roleplayer, in some senses, a hardcore roleplayer. I do like immersion in the game, and I am not keen on the idea of having things that dont make sense, like forges underwater or in a treetop or even sitting in the grass in Eldarr Grove would be strange. However, craftsmen gathering in crafting halls does seem to "make sense" to me.
 
So bearing this in mind, I have to ask, why exactly do you want people "out of the instances"? Personally, I love instances, and I think they fit the game. Furthermore, it seems almost arbitrary to remove them now, two years after release. Am I to assume there is another reason for wanting this change? Such as freeing up server-side resource for other things? If so, why not just admit it, that would be a reason with merit.
 
But if it is just a roleplay/community reason, I would have to say, my characters would actively prefer being with other crafters (especially other Koada`Dal crafters!) and not with non-crafters when they are crafting! Furthermore, for many crafters, being in a crafting zone is sending a message to other players, that they are crafting! Well, that is my opinion anyway, but when all is said and done, loss of crafting instances would not be the end of the world. As long as what replaced them was sufficient to meet the needs of the crafting community.
 
Regardless, if I let that go, then the next question is - why on Test is there such a massive decrease in the total number of crafting station per craft in the city? Currently in Qeynos on Live, there are how many - is it 6 villages with a tradeskill instance? Then there is the one in Qeynos Harbour, making seven. Each of these has 3 crafting stations for each trade, so we have is that 21 crafting stations per tradeskill spread over 7 zones. These zones all contain brokers, fuel vendors and writ-givers, and most are just a few steps to a zoneline (with a fast zone time) away from a bank and a recipe-book seller. The key word is - convenient!
 
However, on Test now, there are how many crafting stations per tradeskill? Down from 21 to 6 perhaps? So a huge reduction. Furthermore, they are in the laggiest zones in the entire game (Qeynos Harbour, South Qeynos and North Qeynos), zones many of us avoid due to the lag to begin with! Add to this, the distances one has to run between writ-givers, bank etc (if there is one - there is not one at all in South Qeynos, so thats a long run and slow zone to another zone and back for a bank trip) are now longer. The key words here are - lag-infested, overcrowded and inconvenient.
 
And to add to this, we are being pushed out of the villages that some of us actually want to be part of, as members of the community. Want a RP reaction? Darn it, my characters are uncomfortable having to live in the human city, no matter how benevolent its leaders, because they let the evil filthy Teir`Dal and their subserviant evil races in. Qeynos is nothing like the majesty of Felwithe, where such evil was kept OUT, but at least in Castleview it is *mostly* Koada`Dal and Frogloks, so there is at least some sense of community!
 
[Tue Sep 26 00:54:32 2006] Glendral BROADCASTS, "We will be adding crafting stations in the overland zones as well."
 
There is nothing wrong with this, of course. But you should also realize, that if the resources that crafters crave (banker, broker, fuel-sellers, writ-givers) are not all close by, the out of city ones will be underused. I know if I am planning a normal crafting session, I am absolutely not going to travel out of the city to a crafting station where if I find I am missing one item or want to buy/sell or change coin, I just have to come back to the city again. It would be a waste of my most precious resource (as a player) - my time!

[Tue Sep 26 01:02:24 2006]Glendral says out of character, "okay so say in Elddar Grove, where there arent really any buildings or any type of merchants, would you want to see  a little tradeskill area set up."
 
This is a valid point. A forge in Eldar Grove might look inconsistent. However, by the same argument, a forge in Castleview, in Willow Wood, in Nettleville, in Baubleshire, etc - would look perfectly reasonable. Each is a racial community, and would have its own crafting facilities. So ok, forget forges in Eldarr Grove, but put them everywhere else please.
 
[Tue Sep 26 01:10:26 2006] Glendral BROADCASTS, "If we had one of each type(or more) in villages/hoods, would just the main tradeskill instances be enough(coalition/ironforge)?"
 
This was one of the last things I heard before my chain-crashing started. It sounded a lot better. The answer would probably be yes - one or more of each type in each village and the main instance in QH (and freeport equivalent) would likely work well.
 
So, rather than just tell you a list of reasons why I dislike the Test changes, I will now come up with some constructive alternatives:
 
1) Don't change anything at all. Yes, that is an option, unless there are other reasons for doing this that we are not currently being informed of.
 
2) Ok, remove the instances. However, put crafting stations in all the villages as well as in the city centres. This might make the villages somewhat crowded, but it won't be anything like as bad as North Qeynos was tonight, because people will be spread over all of them. It would also mean players like myself could choose remain in their communities - in my case, Castleview Hamlet.
 
3) Make sure there are lots of crafting stations overall, and that the resources that crafters actually want for
convenience are close by and clearly labelled with plenty of detaied quest help for finding brokers, bankers,
writgivers, "clipboards" and crafting stations.

Summary
 
I had not posted on this issue til now, as I wanted to try the playtest before commenting. Now having taken part in the playtest, my view is a big thumbs DOWN on these proposed changes. I won't mince my words, they are a disaster in terms of community reaction waiting to happen, and I suggest some significant changes are made in line with the comments of the Test community at large, and folks like Niami and Calthine and others, before any changes go to live.
 
Felishanna.
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Old 09-26-2006, 06:31 AM   #20
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Didi wrote:

Regarding the point that crafters are isolated -- I strongly feel this is a false perception.  Physically, we may be sitting in crafting dungeons; but we aren't limited to speaking with people where we physically are.  Most conversation crafters have (indeed, most conversation anyone in this game has) is not affected by where they physically are, but takes place in channels, guild chat, group chat --- methods of communication not limited by physical location.  How often do you chat with someone next to you in /say, no matter whether you are a crafter or an adventurer?  Far more likely you're chatting in guild, and in channels.


There's an old saying I tend to repeat quite a bit within my guild that "nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd". I bring this up because one of the largest complaints I hear about Everquest 2 is that our cities don't feel "alive" like cities in other games...especially when compared to cities like World of Warcraft.Those players aren't complaining about a lack of chat. They're complaining about a lack of actual players running around. Just being in chat channels isn't enough. (It's a bit like saying you don't need to go out with your friends, because they can talk to you online anytime they want so what's the difference, right?)In a game like Everquest 2 with a large virtual world, that has quite a bit of instancing, it's hard enough to bump into other players. Just being able to hear the players in a chat channel simply isn't going to replace the actual sight of more PC's where it matters.
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Old 09-26-2006, 06:45 AM   #21
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Some somewhat disjointed observations, impressions and suggestions from the test.

I only have a tailor on test so that is what I did. The NQ tailoring shop was so crowded at one point I could not get out. I was trapped back where the loom was. There simply was not room enough for all the people, mounts, pets and the sheer quantity of furniture shoved into such a tiny space. I'd say one loom in there would have to be enough, 2 is just too much. Either that or you'd have to remove so much of the nice 'atmospheric furniture' like the racks with bolts of cloth.

The tailoring station I found in SQ wasn't as cramped, but felt like it was jammed up in the attic because people didn't know what to do with it. In that particular case I'd say actually to add more atmospheric items to make it feel more like a over the store tailoring workshop rather than just somewhere you threw the loom.

I rather liked the forges outside in NQ, however the placement of those could be a bit better. They really look like they were just kinda of tossed over near the shop willy nilly with no thought to how pathways by them and around them to the building would be.

The placement of the Tradeskill delegates/writgivers/etc was a bit absurd. There needs to be a better place to put them even if it is adding a little tent somewhere. It doesn't make much sense for people who are apparently somewhat well established in the tradeskill societies to stand around out in the rain twiddling their thumbs waiting for us to come.

The amount of lag produced from having us crafting in SQ/NQ was terrible. Even after we split between zones I had enough lag that I was missing counters, failing combines, and botching writs (things that really just don't happen on live servers unless I'm distracted). Upon walking up to an area where either NPCs or crafting tables were it would take a bit for them to actually render. Not to mention the huge increase to zonetimes.

Despite the fact that most of the areas for crafting areas being absolutely crammed and cramped with machines, npcs and random other bits of furniture, there simply would not be enough crafting stations as it was tonight for people to be comfortable. Definately if this plan goes forward, there need to be at least as many crafting stations as there are on live now readily available (as in not tucked away in some treestump halfling hidey hole in Rivervale or somesuch). While it'd be nice to have some there just because, the really out of the way ones really should be in addition to the current numbers. As for more 'out in the world' I can easily picture the building Matsy is in having a stove and keg. There is an ideal place right outside there for a forge by the dwarf. There are stacks of wood around back, toss up a lean-to or awning and you have a good spot to put a woodworking table.

I'm not opposed to people being able to craft outside of the instances. But there should be instances left available for those who would choose to use them. They should remain just as convient as they are currently (as in having all the amenities we've become accustomed to). I'd say leave instances in the villages. Place any additional outdoor stations in sensible locations so they don't look like they just fell off a wagon and no one has gotten around to shifting them yet. It wouldn't be a bad thing to see all the tradeskill stations outdoors in the villages, however the villages are small. Their placement would have to be well thought out.

What ever happens, villages need to have all crafting stations, bankers, brokers, writ givers, fuel/book merchants etc. The ones in the main city zones if they are going to stay, need to be placed more sensibly giving some thought to the ease of access.

 

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Old 09-26-2006, 07:00 AM   #22
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Kendricke wrote:

In a game like Everquest 2 with a large virtual world, that has quite a bit of instancing, it's hard enough to bump into other players. Just being able to hear the players in a chat channel simply isn't going to replace the actual sight of more PC's where it matters.

Crafters are not organ grinder monkeys, there to entertain adventurers and make folks think that the would is more active with the "actual sight of more PC's". And the playability for crafters should not be compromised for your (or anyone else's) enjoyment or immersion in the game. And if you're just making the point of "crowds draw crowds", I say who the heck cares? All a crowd does is put our framerates in the toilet... wanting larger crowds of people in the city so it seems more "real" is like saying you want a frontal lobotomy so you'll never be sad again. It makes zero sense in any practical way.

Fundamentally, it sounds like SoE is trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. At least not in the minds of the people for whom the changes affect the most. And as far as the community stuff is concerned, the thing that affects participation in the community the most is rush order writs, not where the crafting is done. No time for idle chit-chat when you're doing those.

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Old 09-26-2006, 07:03 AM   #23
KerowynnKaotic

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My Humble Opinions:

I am actually looking forward to getting out of the crafting dungeon. 

That said, I would very much like to see (1) dungeon in each in Qeynos & Freeport stay  ** but ** I would like a revamp of the lay-out of the dungeons .. make them 1 level and an open floorplan with only 1 each of the TS devices.   That way we have the option of doing the dungeon and additional TS devices but with potential for crowding in that (1) zone people will prefer to go outside. 

I would also like to see each Hamlet & Slum have their own set of Tradeskill Devices.  Or, at least "activate" the ones that are already in each of the zones .. 

I am very much looking forward to the day that the Devs add in MORE TS devices in OTHER areas.  ie: Windstalker Village, the Crossroads ...

Wouldn't it be nice if you "dinged" T3 crafting and were able to go to The Thundermist Village and had access to your Tradeskill devices, fuel and harvesting supplies?   Or, anywhere else we have a sort of "village" mock up.  It only makes sense that they could add functioning Tradeskill devices to those areas ..

That would ease off the pressure of the Lag for the Home Cities .. and .. don't forget that there is now going to be another "goodie" home and we'll have the same type of Open Tradeskill Devices there as well ..

Before we know it we will have options for those TS Grind sessions coming out our ears! 

So, even though for the next few Game Updates we might be abit croweded .. I am of the opinion that the changes are towards a better crafting experience!  SMILEY

---

But, Horses and Carpets and "other mounts"; seriously need to remove Player Mounts in the City Zones again!   Even if it just hides the mount and the player still gets the run speed!  Something so that everyone isn't having to load up everyone's mount!  

 

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Old 09-26-2006, 07:07 AM   #24
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Kordran wrote:

Kendricke wrote:In a game like Everquest 2 with a large virtual world, that has quite a bit of instancing, it's hard enough to bump into other players. Just being able to hear the players in a chat channel simply isn't going to replace the actual sight of more PC's where it matters.

Crafters are not organ grinder monkeys, there to entertain adventurers and make folks think that the would is more active with the "actual sight of more PC's". And the playability for crafters should not be compromised for your (or anyone else's) enjoyment or immersion in the game. And if you're just making the point of "crowds draw crowds", I say who the heck cares? All a crowd does is put our framerates in the toilet... wanting larger crowds of people in the city so it seems more "real" is like saying you want a frontal lobotomy so you'll never be sad again. It makes zero sense in any practical way.

Fundamentally, it sounds like SoE is trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. At least not in the minds of the people for whom the changes affect the most. And as far as the community stuff is concerned, the thing that affects participation in the community the most is rush order writs, not where the crafting is done. No time for idle chit-chat when you're doing those.


Don't get upset with me for introducing a differing perspective. I'm simply pointing out that the idea that "crafters are social...in chat channels" isn't addressing the issue.Frankly, it affects me if server population is negatively impacted because players don't stick around in part because there aren't enough "warm bodies" around.In addition, this is another reason why introducing more tradeskill implements without removing the instances wouldn't work...because a number of players would simply continue to utilize the underground spaces they're already used to.That said, I also like the changes overall, minus the obvious bugs and lag issues, of course.

Message Edited by Kendricke on 09-25-2006 08:09 PM

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Old 09-26-2006, 07:07 AM   #25
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Kendricke wrote:


Didi wrote:

Regarding the point that crafters are isolated -- I strongly feel this is a false perception.  Physically, we may be sitting in crafting dungeons; but we aren't limited to speaking with people where we physically are.  Most conversation crafters have (indeed, most conversation anyone in this game has) is not affected by where they physically are, but takes place in channels, guild chat, group chat --- methods of communication not limited by physical location.  How often do you chat with someone next to you in /say, no matter whether you are a crafter or an adventurer?  Far more likely you're chatting in guild, and in channels.





There's an old saying I tend to repeat quite a bit within my guild that "nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd".

I bring this up because one of the largest complaints I hear about Everquest 2 is that our cities don't feel "alive" like cities in other games...especially when compared to cities like World of Warcraft.

Those players aren't complaining about a lack of chat. They're complaining about a lack of actual players running around. Just being in chat channels isn't enough. (It's a bit like saying you don't need to go out with your friends, because they can talk to you online anytime they want so what's the difference, right?)

In a game like Everquest 2 with a large virtual world, that has quite a bit of instancing, it's hard enough to bump into other players. Just being able to hear the players in a chat channel simply isn't going to replace the actual sight of more PC's where it matters.

 

I love the way EQ2 does not feel overridden, overcrowded, and "alive" with naked idiots dancing on mailboxes and having to wait 30 mins to retrieve mail from the mailbox. I like not being 20 players deep, shoulder to shoulder (watch those "birds" perched up there Mr. Druid, please) inside the bank, behind the teller window (not in front). I like not finding 30 people or more sitting in front of the gryphon. It was certainly alive there. FPS-stuttering so.

There's space to breathe, to move, to not stutter every 2 steps on the way into the AH.

I realize all of the above are personal feelings, and I can certainly understand how someone would want more life around. Or how the game can feel empty sometimes. Too open. Too deserted.

 

I can also understand how having trade centers, crafters all centered around an open area, busy with commerce and chat and selling can make a place feel bustling, and community oriented. I've played games where that existed. Where crafting was vital to the other players: required, respected, and all for the benefit of the entire realm. Good gear meant better rewards for everyone.

 

The game dynamics are different here. It almost feels like crafting is a secondary game. It certainly can be played that way. I have 6 crafters and 4 main adventurers.

I don't want to be forced to be outside as a visual sign that the game has life. I'm not a performing artist (unless I can get SP for that). I'm not window dressing.  I'm a fellow player.

Bringing "life" to the game is a noble cause. Finding an alternative that doesn't require other people to become the backdrop for someone else's virtual pleasure is perhaps a better way build community.  Especially if you find a way that doesn't minimize their gaming pleasure as well.

 

 

Message Edited by Goldenflight on 09-25-2006 08:14 PM

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Old 09-26-2006, 07:17 AM   #26
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Goldenflight wrote:

I love the way EQ2 does not feel overridden, overcrowded, and "alive"


Excellent for you. It's refreshing to find someone who enjoys the current game. Unfortunately, a great many players do not...and more's the pity for the rest of us.Obviously I'm fighting against the current here, and I respect that, but at the same time, I can completely see the benefits of this change, and feel such benefits outweigh the penalities quite a bit.I do hope something can be done to help optimize and alleviate the lag a bit, and I'm certainly hoping to see even more tradeskilling devices throughout the cities, but at the same time, I'm curious as to how often we'll really (truly and really) see 150+ crafters/adventurers within the same exact zone in either Qeynos or Freeport. It can't be THAT often...and if so, so much the better (again, lag issues aside).For so long, the cities in Everquest 2 have felt stale and almost lifeless to me...a place to rush through as quickly as possible on your way to the next quest, writ, or what have you....Then again..here's my idea to help with that. When a player engages a crafting device, have all other PC models disappear. *POOF* So long as you remain engaged to the device, no other PC's are drawn/rendered at all. You could even have a dark fog envelop the surrounding world for added dramatic effect (make sure sound is dampened appropriately as well).From a roleplaying perspective, consider this to be the effect of your character concentrating on his or her task.
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Old 09-26-2006, 07:20 AM   #27
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Kendricke wrote:In a game like Everquest 2 with a large virtual world, that has quite a bit of instancing, it's hard enough to bump into other players. Just being able to hear the players in a chat channel simply isn't going to replace the actual sight of more PC's where it matters.
the only problem is that eq2 requires a lot more hardware to pull this off, wow looks better  *giggles* and plays faster even when Ironforge is packed (most times)... we all want what you are talking about in Norrath (hence me playing this and not wow) but with the requirements this game needs to make these changes fun and interactive its just not to happen... it wont make the game better for most part it will just make it unplayable
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Old 09-26-2006, 07:21 AM   #28
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My feelings are that this is far too drastic a change. Your players like options and they don't like it when things are removed from the game or forced on them.I'd say go with a small change first. Keep all the crafting instances as they are and add some devices to the quieter zones like South Freeport and the Elddar Grove. If people like crafting there, they can go there. Any new crafting area has to have the same conveniences that crafters want, otherwise they won't use them. They need fuel, a broker, writ givers and recipe book merchants nearby. Banks have never been close to the crafting zone, but they shouldn't be too far away. Crafting on horseback is pretty silly, so you should be required to dismount to craft, like riding a griffon.That's my feedback from the testing today.Othesus - Dirge - Lucan DLereVaspar - Fury - Lucan DLere
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Old 09-26-2006, 07:23 AM   #29
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The one thing that I really like about EQ2 is the fact that if I don't feel like hacking and slashing I have the option of crafting. It's the thing I want to do when I feel like I need to be really productive. Something I can do fast and get quick results at. The reason I can do this, convience. I have everything I need in one place. The problem with the new set up is there is no convience. A lot of running around and getting no where. The ts writs were not only good for players but for their guilds as well. The rush order writs you just put in, will be for naught. In NQ all the time will be wasted before you even get started. Trying to find a table, making sure you have all the necessary components, it will be like Santa (checking your list, then checking it twice just to make sure you have everything), what a waste of time. If I know that I only have s short amount of play time, I can get on and craft. If this change goes into effect as is, that is out of the window.

You saw the results as to how laggy it will be, and that is only on test, can you imagine what will happen on live servers where you have thousands of players if you try to do that. No one will be able to move. 

So my suggestion is this, Stop, Take a deep Breath, and lets start over. Keep the ts instances, whittle them down abit,maybe one to two crafting tables for each station, move the other crafting tables to one area outside under a big top tent like building/ market type area, not inside of shops as it is too cramped, have all the conviences of the ts instances in that one place,  remove the npc's that are not needed in that city, they are taking up space and causing unnecessary lag. For example, in QH where the bank is you have all that space and you have merchants lining up along the side of the street, something along those lines would be great. That would give adventures the opportunity to interact with crafters but also allow the crafter some space to craft. But remember convience is the key here. Everything (meaning broker, fuel availability, bank and mail) have to be easily accessible and within close proximity to the ts area.

If you want a good picture of what will happen to tradeskilling, watch the Everfrost ts area for awhile, it gets used, but very rarely. Of the many months that I have played in that zone, the ts area has always been empty with the exception of the one or two times that I have actually seen a player there using it. It is a rarity. Why? Because there are no conviences.

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Old 09-26-2006, 07:24 AM   #30
Goldenflig

 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Kendricke wrote:


Goldenflight wrote:

I love the way EQ2 does not feel overridden, overcrowded, and "alive"





Excellent for you. It's refreshing to find someone who enjoys the current game. Unfortunately, a great many players do not...and more's the pity for the rest of us.

Obviously I'm fighting against the current here, and I respect that, but at the same time, I can completely see the benefits of this change, and feel such benefits outweigh the penalities quite a bit.

I do hope something can be done to help optimize and alleviate the lag a bit, and I'm certainly hoping to see even more tradeskilling devices throughout the cities, but at the same time, I'm curious as to how often we'll really (truly and really) see 150+ crafters/adventurers within the same exact zone in either Qeynos or Freeport. It can't be THAT often...and if so, so much the better (again, lag issues aside).

For so long, the cities in Everquest 2 have felt stale and almost lifeless to me...a place to rush through as quickly as possible on your way to the next quest, writ, or what have you.

...

Then again..here's my idea to help with that.

When a player engages a crafting device, have all other PC models disappear. *POOF* So long as you remain engaged to the device, no other PC's are drawn/rendered at all. You could even have a dark fog envelop the surrounding world for added dramatic effect (make sure sound is dampened appropriately as well).

From a roleplaying perspective, consider this to be the effect of your character concentrating on his or her task.

 

I understand and empathize.

I'm curious why this has to be fixed with changes to crafters.

Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the few that actually enjoys crafting outside. I don't want others to disappear in a fog. That means I don't see life going on around me either.

I believe the current implementation detracts rather than adds.

And I'm trying to understand why, it feels to me, that  the solution to "lack of life in the city" (IF that the real issue being addressed) seems to be a "shoot from the hip" response (move crafters outdoors).

"Any intuitive change to a complex system will inevitably leave that system worse off." 

 


 

Message Edited by Goldenflight on 09-25-2006 08:27 PM

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