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Old 05-17-2006, 07:09 PM   #31
SideshowBob

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Mawie wrote:


Clearly you haven't looked at other boards then. I'm seeing a lot of people who only have second hand knowledge commenting on things.
 
And there have been things that have been on the test server that have not made it to live, and there are things that have gone live that have been changed back. I'm not going to count out the possibility that this might not be as seriously terrible as everyone is making it out to be.



Clearly you prefer to assume.  What difference it makes to the original subject I am not sure, but I DO look at the other boards.  Either that or I'm not sure how I got the "Philosopher" title by only buring my nose in the Troub forums' hefty 8000 or so post count...

Correct me if I am wrong, but the purpose of a Discussion Forum is to discuss issues with the game. What you are seeing are a lot of people who are discussing changes that were posted by people with first hand knowledge from the Test server. It's not like we are pulling these changes to Charm and Mez out our posteriors.

And as someone else said, Sony's track record with pushig content through Test to Live, is not a good one.  Hence, my comments about how we need to make our concerns heard NOW, before the content goes live. WHY force the changes on the general population, when there is opportunity to modify the content while it still resides on the Test server? Isn't that what the Test server is for?  Isn't that what the Test Feedback Forum is for? Isn't that what the TroubadoUr Forum is for? Answer me that.

Also answer my original question - Do you play a high level Troub? Do you understand what impact these changes will have to the very core of our play style?

And I am not going to count out the possibility that this might actually be worse than we imagined. Sony's track record with the nerf bat is not an impressive one, nor does it allow much "optimism" in the face of reality/history. I saw what they did to Rangers. I saw what they did to Gaurdians. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. There is no need to force Troubs to live with a severe nerf on the Live servers where it generally takes weeks (if not months) for patches to fix the broken. Not when the fixes can be made on Test before it ever sees the light of day on Live.

You're an optimist.  Good for you.  I'm a realist. And I refuse to sit idly by like some beaten animal while this nerf is still on the Test center.

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Old 05-17-2006, 07:19 PM   #32
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I know you guys probably already saw it... but Moorguard posted this last night:

We value player feedback and read it every day on these boards and others, but to design the game through a series of polls would be a sure way to satisfy no one, and furthermore it would be an administrative nightmare. Games aren't built by voting; they are built by game designers. The customers then vote with their dollars as to whether or not they enjoy the product. Anyone looking for an MMO that matches every single ideal of what they'd like a game to be is going to be disappointed no matter where they turn.

Hence why I am adding my three votes and have cancelled my accounts. I just believe it is unfortunate that I am paid through July.

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Old 05-17-2006, 07:20 PM   #33
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I play a 58 troubador. I am well aware of what impact this will have on us. With that said, there is a huge difference between saying "devs tell us what we want to know NOW" (they simply won't do it, trust me, not only do I post a lot, but I read alot, too... and more often then not, they don't jump when the players say jump) and coming in making one concise post about why the forthcoming changes are bad and what should be seen (rather than the eight that have popped up.) The templars and guardians each have one or two good stickied threads on what is wrong with their classes and what they'd like to see happen. I bet the devs read those. I say we try one. The nature of MMOs is that they change. If you don't like the change being presented, there are some really easy solutions. Yeah, they stink, but that's life. Again, wait until you've PERSONALLY tried the changes before coming here complaining. In closing, I ignore post counts when responding to people. I couldn't care less about yours or mine. I suggest some of you do the same when responding to me. K?
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Old 05-17-2006, 07:36 PM   #34
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Mawie wrote:


ForgottenFoundling wrote:


Mawie wrote:
 
Clearly you haven't looked at other boards then. I'm seeing a lot of people who only have second hand knowledge commenting on things.
 
And there have been things that have been on the test server that have not made it to live, and there are things that have gone live that have been changed back. I'm not going to count out the possibility that this might not be as seriously terrible as everyone is making it out to be.



You're incredibly optomistic or naive...  Sony's history of testing and implementing has been such a letdown to the populace that there is no doubt in my mind that we will suffer the same treatment as MANY other classes.  If anything, SOE is quick to nerf, slow to fix and very uncommunicative throughout the entire process. 

The most important thing I look for in a product is competence, whether it be a service or physical product.  Pushing out untested/broken content and making sweeping changes to the core of any class shows a lack of competence in development, testing and QA.  SOE has even commented on their "position within the industry" to explain away their bad service skills.  It's thoroughly unacceptable and people leave the game all the time as a result of it.  Sure, new people come into the game, but eventually, they will see the same problems if they choose to explore the world provided.  If they choose to take a passive role, then maybe they won't see as many of the issues, but that doesn't mean the issues are gone.




I'm going more for optimist.
 
I see the problems of the past, but ultimately, people adapt. People cried when templars were nerfed. People cried when guardians were nerfed. People cried when rangers were nerfed. But I still see a ton of people playing those classes to this day.
 
/shrug
 
What it comes down to is that this is just a game, and I see no reason for people to complain. The best thing people can really do to show their dislike is quit.


Yes, ultimately people do adapt.  Does that make it right? 
Do a large percentage of those people adapt by making totally new characters and (for al intents and purposes) waste months of time and effort they put into the nerfed-into-oblivion class? Does that make the nerf right?
Did you stop to think that you see a ton of people playing those classes today because they finally put them back to where they can 'compete' with other similar classes in group as well as solo desireability/playability? Does that make the inital beating they took with the nerf bat right?
Or perhaps the people that originally shelved those toons can finally come back to them now that these many months later they have been fixed? Does that make the nerfing they took initially right?

/shrug

What it comes down to is that people invest a lot of time, energy and money in this game. And they have every right to complain when they see that all that hard work they poured into their character is about to be thoughtlessly smashed into tiny little bits by Sony's bootheel. They have every right to complain when their character is no longer a viable option in the scope of the game. They have every right to complain when they can no longer keep pace level-wise with their counterparts just because they play at odd hours or do not always have the luxury of being able to instantly find full groups to join - guildies or otherwise.

The best way for people to show their dislike is through FEEDBACK. Quiting is nothing more than the opposite extreme of your rose-colored-glasses pacifism. It accomplishes very little because it instantly breaks the communication cycle. Adults discuss things and hopefully work out a compromise. Children pack up their bat and ball and go home. I prefer to try and deal with issues I see in a game I still love, as an adult. And apparently so do a lot of other people on this forum, fortunately. Now we just have to hope and pray that our voices and concerns do not fall on deaf ears.

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Old 05-17-2006, 07:39 PM   #35
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JBW wrote:

I know you guys probably already saw it... but Moorguard posted this last night:

We value player feedback and read it every day on these boards and others, but to design the game through a series of polls would be a sure way to satisfy no one, and furthermore it would be an administrative nightmare. Games aren't built by voting; they are built by game designers. The customers then vote with their dollars as to whether or not they enjoy the product. Anyone looking for an MMO that matches every single ideal of what they'd like a game to be is going to be disappointed no matter where they turn.

Hence why I am adding my three votes and have cancelled my accounts. I just believe it is unfortunate that I am paid through July.



I'm sorry to see you go JBW. I enjoy your posts on the WS forums as well.

Sadly, the only thing still holding me to this game is my RL friends in my guild. If not for them I would have canceled after LU13. 

This is getting to be to much and my patients is growing thin. If SOE wants me to vote so badly I will be casting my vote for Blizzard if nothing changes. I do have friends that play WOW also, I just happen to not be a fan of the warcraft universe in general, but at this point I'm almost willing to let that go. 

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Old 05-17-2006, 07:42 PM   #36
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I think that people should complain. I never said otherwise. I just wish that people would complain once they had experienced it for themselves. I think it makes the complaint more legit. Ya know what I mean? SMILEY I also think one of the most powerful tools to show disdain for any product is to avoid it.  Yeah, it sucks after dedicating all this time and money into something to dump it, but it is bound to happen eventually anyway. I left SWG when EQ2 launched. I had spent a ton of time making my character awesome. It sucked to leave, but there was greener grass on the horizon. I love EQ2 and don't plan on quitting it any time soon, but I've always advocated people who are at the end of their ropes taking a break. If you really love and miss the game, you'll be back.
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Old 05-17-2006, 07:58 PM   #37
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> I think that people should complain. I never said otherwise. I just wish
> that people would complain once they had experienced it for themselves.
> I think it makes the complaint more legit. Ya know what I mean?

Frankly, no.

I don't see why I have to experience an 8 second charm to know what it means. I think the time to complain about it starts now while it is on test. You are free to wait as long as you wish, though. SMILEY

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Old 05-17-2006, 08:15 PM   #38
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No.  You are correct. You never directly said people shouldn't complain.  You certainly alluded to it when you stated that you see no reason for people to complain, because, silly them (yes that was added for what was not said, but what was certainly implied), it's "just a game".

Sorry, I don't have the time, nor the inclination to level a Troub on Test server to the level my main is at now, in order to see how the changes will affect the character I have spent the past year and a half playing on the Live server.  So I am relegated to reading what those who do play on Test center report, and seeing how those changes differ from what is currently on Live. I guess I have to resort to my limited conceptualization skills, as do most other people in the same boat I am... But I can say that it probably doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how the nerfs to Charm and Mez will affect my Troub once it hits the Live server. 

I am very happy that you prefer to wait for the changes to hit the Live servers and experience them fist hand for yourself. I am sure a lot of people are of a similar opinion. That does not, however, invalidate the opinion of others that prefer to try and enact changes while the content still resides on the Test server by discussing the changes with those who do play on Test, as well as discussing the changes within the TEST FEEDBACK FORUM. It does not make the feedback they are providing any less legitimate.

I'm also glad you feel that the best way to show disdain for a product is by avoiding it.  I'm sure to most people, myself included, that is exactly what we will do if and when we reach the end of our rope.  I, however, have not lost hope that our voices will be heard. Therefore I am not compelled to avoid it (aka: quit) just yet, so I will keep posting my feedback and hope some of the powers that be read it and consider it. I hope most of the other folks here in this forum feel the same way and are not quite ready to give up on their beloved Troubs, and am very saddened to read about those who have reached that point.

Oh, and P.S. - I couldn't care less about anyone's post count. Just don't assume that I am uninformed and don't read other forums, and I won't assume that you spend too much time posting on them. People with one post tallied under their name can have just as valid of a point as someone with 10,000+ posts tallied under their name. Regardless, I am signing out on this discussion by agreeing to disagree on how best to engender change in this game. Any further disputation on that subject does nothing to further the original subject of contention: the state of the TroubadoUr as it sits on Test.

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Old 05-17-2006, 11:52 PM   #39
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Mawie wrote:/snip With that said, there is a huge difference between saying "devs tell us what we want to know NOW" (they simply won't do it, trust me, not only do I post a lot, but I read alot, too... and more often then not, they don't jump when the players say jump) and coming in making one concise post about why the forthcoming changes are bad and what should be seen (rather than the eight that have popped up.) The templars and guardians each have one or two good stickied threads on what is wrong with their classes and what they'd like to see happen. I bet the devs read those. I say we try one. /snip

Yes you are right. I guess the thing that bugs me and others, I assume, is that we had this twice allready in the past. Well formed, constructive input giving posts outlined very well to the detail. More than a simple thanks for the feedback we didn't get.Quite opposite, we did get LU13.I applaud anyone picking the idea up again. I did once and discarded it after all these "changes" and getting the feeling regardless of what you did, it would run hollow and be meaningless.
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Old 05-18-2006, 12:15 AM   #40
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One of the issues is what if there's some good stuff for Troubs in TU24b? Then a lot of the complaining is rather moot. On the other hand, it would've been a smart move by the devs to atleast drop a message to the effect of "Don't worry, we're on it Troubs."

A little communication to the troubs would have gone a long way I think. Alas...

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