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Old 12-26-2011, 01:13 PM   #31
Luterin

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DrkVsr wrote:

Luterin wrote:

The game knows what characters you have and what levels they are, and if you don't match the criteria you will not be able to "Need on Alt". 

Guess you must have one of those mega-super giant computers to prevent your machine from either lagging to a near halt or exploding from it having to keep a running tally of not only your playing characters' level and the quality of all their abilities/spells but also those of all your alts as well

What are you high on? Can I have some?

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Old 12-26-2011, 05:40 PM   #32
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[email protected] wrote:

When school starts back up and all the kids are done with the Christmas holiday, this will decrease dramatically.

Oh what a hilarious myth.  You really think kids are behind this?  No, it's 24-35 year olds who just really don't care.

It'll only get worse after the break when SWTOR malcontents return after their free month is up.  Enjoy!

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Old 12-26-2011, 05:45 PM   #33
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DrkVsr wrote:

Luterin wrote:

The game knows what characters you have and what levels they are, and if you don't match the criteria you will not be able to "Need on Alt". 

Guess you must have one of those mega-super giant computers to prevent your machine from either lagging to a near halt or exploding from it having to keep a running tally of not only your playing characters' level and the quality of all their abilities/spells but also those of all your alts as well

You really have absolutely no idea how anything about computers works, do you?

Here's how to perform this miracle without having a mega-super giant computer:  Query the server.  You could do it on your phone.  You could do it on a Pentium 100 with a 56k dialup.  What kind of dread magic do you think goes into recording your character on the server's side?  You could probably compress everything about a character down to a few megabytes, if not less, if you felt like it.

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Old 12-26-2011, 05:57 PM   #34
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bohohoboprobono wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

When school starts back up and all the kids are done with the Christmas holiday, this will decrease dramatically.

Oh what a hilarious myth.  You really think kids are behind this?  No, it's 24-35 year olds who just really don't care.

It'll only get worse after the break when SWTOR malcontents return after their free month is up.  Enjoy!

I didn't say it would disappear. I said it would decrease dramatically.

And when I say kids, I don't mean elementary school.

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Old 12-26-2011, 07:05 PM   #35
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There is this lovely new feature that any member of a group can use now:  /vote_kick

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Old 12-26-2011, 07:05 PM   #36
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I'm still waiting for someone in favour of this change to indicate something that SOE can do to the game which will solve the problem better, quicker and easier than what those against the change have already achieved through simple communication.

Anyone?

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Old 12-26-2011, 07:16 PM   #37
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bohohoboprobono wrote:

DrkVsr wrote:

Luterin wrote:

The game knows what characters you have and what levels they are, and if you don't match the criteria you will not be able to "Need on Alt". 

Guess you must have one of those mega-super giant computers to prevent your machine from either lagging to a near halt or exploding from it having to keep a running tally of not only your playing characters' level and the quality of all their abilities/spells but also those of all your alts as well

You really have absolutely no idea how anything about computers works, do you?

Here's how to perform this miracle without having a mega-super giant computer:  Query the server.  You could do it on your phone.  You could do it on a Pentium 100 with a 56k dialup.  What kind of dread magic do you think goes into recording your character on the server's side?  You could probably compress everything about a character down to a few megabytes, if not less, if you felt like it.

Wow!  I didn't realise Alan Turing was alive and well and playing EQ2.  We are honoured by your presence, sir.

So just a few megabytes?  And how many are playing?  And how many alts do they have?  And how many of those alts need to be tracked and searched? And now how many megabytes? Plus you forget the time taken to run the algorithm required to decide what is needed and by whom.  And you also forget that when it's implemented it won't actually work and will probably result in nobody being able to loot anything for 2 months while the bug is sorted.

You really need to think before you post, especially if you are going to use that post to have a dig at someone

I'm not convinced an increase in server lag is a reasonable trade-off for getting rid of something that so few people regard as a problem.

I can think of a million and one fixes that are a much higher priority than this, if a fix is even needed at all.

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Old 12-26-2011, 07:27 PM   #38
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Wolfmyth wrote:

Why can everyone roll need on nearly all items? It's pretty rediculous a SK can roll NEED on fabled cloth/leather/chain/master books(non SK) and the like.

I've tried to do DF 4x now and 3 of thoes times I had to leave because someone was rolling NEED on everything, and I don't help greedy pigs.

Why don't they fix this? It's not hard to do so I guess they must have a reason?

SOE doesn't need to regulate every single tiny little aspect of the game. 

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Old 12-26-2011, 08:23 PM   #39
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It's funny to me that some people cannot fathom this being implemented in the game when it's been in Vanguard since it's start and works really well there. It's also not my job to make a group and have an interview first to be sure that everyone's not going to be a loot vacuum (all the other words I want to use are forbidden.) If I'm group leader and someone needs on loot they can't use w/o explaining themselves first, they are immediately booted.

This idea of oh well someone steals some nice loot you just don't group with them again doesn't really help the fact that you or your deserving groupmate just lost out on a nice item. I don't care if people have 'alts' - guess what, I have alts too and if I want gear on them I go run that zone or specifically state that I will be rolling for an alt and make sure it's okay with the group. Basically I would like if it were an checkbox type loot option. That way there's no "accidental" needs, or "Oh, didn't you see me say I was rolling for my alt... I swear I said it...", or any of the other BS that goes on. If all my friends played this instead of other MMO's that'd be great, I'd be so happy, but in the real world they play other games so if I feel like ever seeing a higher heroic zone again, I get to venture out into PUG-land.

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Old 12-26-2011, 08:42 PM   #40
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kahonen wrote:

Wow!  I didn't realise Alan Turing was alive and well and playing EQ2.  We are honoured by your presence, sir.

So just a few megabytes?  And how many are playing?  And how many alts do they have?  And how many of those alts need to be tracked and searched? And now how many megabytes? Plus you forget the time taken to run the algorithm required to decide what is needed and by whom.  And you also forget that when it's implemented it won't actually work and will probably result in nobody being able to loot anything for 2 months while the bug is sorted.

You really need to think before you post, especially if you are going to use that post to have a dig at someone

I'm not convinced an increase in server lag is a reasonable trade-off for getting rid of something that so few people regard as a problem.

I can think of a million and one fixes that are a much higher priority than this, if a fix is even needed at all.

Oh, I'm not saying it's a good idea.  It's a terrible idea.  I'm just saying you don't need a super computer for it.  You need an internet connection.

I can't imagine the character data in question would need much space.  Name, server, class, race.  Slider values for character render.  Associated account info, probably.  Item IDs for equipment/appearance/inventory/bank + slot location + adorns/reforging.  AA setup.  Adventure, Trade, AA XP.  That's about all I can think of for an avatar.  Housing, guild stuff, etc would add more, but again that's nothing magic.  You could distill a character into a readable text file with absolutely no problem, and I'd bet it'd be a few megs at most.  Is that how they actually do it?  Probably not, but it's possible.

The server overhead is minimal.  The group loot option (let's call it AltLoot) would have to be set to this special system, so it wouldn't be in effect all the time anyway.

An equippable item drops under AltLoot.  The server makes six (at max) queries to see what other characters are on the respective account on the server.  Character cap is, what, 12?  Check their class (this wouldn't require the entire character retrieval).  If it fits, move on to check the character versus equipment level.  If the character can equip it based on level, we get into the controversial "How is one item better than another?" fight.  Let's say they choose to do this by comparing item level * quality.  If this value is less than the drop, alt loot lights up and we stop, mark the player as eligible for AltLoot, and move on to the next player.  Otherwise, if there are any more characters than can equip the item, we move on to them and run the check.

Worst case is a group of six, none of which can equip the item, with 11 alts, all the correct class, each ineligible on the final check with player 6 character 11 being the only eligible for AltLoot.  That'd be 66 operations if I'm not mistaken.  In general the algorithm's arbitrary complexity would be n^2, I think, but I'm rusty in that department.

Then the server would have to return which players are eligible for the loot, which we can assume is near-trivial (6 packets, one to each player).

It's a terrible idea but totally implementable.  Whether it's fast or not depends entirely on account -> character access time.

You need to think before you post.  

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Old 12-26-2011, 08:44 PM   #41
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kahonen wrote:

bohohoboprobono wrote:

DrkVsr wrote:

Luterin wrote:

The game knows what characters you have and what levels they are, and if you don't match the criteria you will not be able to "Need on Alt". 

Guess you must have one of those mega-super giant computers to prevent your machine from either lagging to a near halt or exploding from it having to keep a running tally of not only your playing characters' level and the quality of all their abilities/spells but also those of all your alts as well

You really have absolutely no idea how anything about computers works, do you?

Here's how to perform this miracle without having a mega-super giant computer:  Query the server.  You could do it on your phone.  You could do it on a Pentium 100 with a 56k dialup.  What kind of dread magic do you think goes into recording your character on the server's side?  You could probably compress everything about a character down to a few megabytes, if not less, if you felt like it.

Wow!  I didn't realise Alan Turing was alive and well and playing EQ2.  We are honoured by your presence, sir.

So just a few megabytes?  And how many are playing?  And how many alts do they have?  And how many of those alts need to be tracked and searched? And now how many megabytes? Plus you forget the time taken to run the algorithm required to decide what is needed and by whom.  And you also forget that when it's implemented it won't actually work and will probably result in nobody being able to loot anything for 2 months while the bug is sorted.

You really need to think before you post, especially if you are going to use that post to have a dig at someone

I'm not convinced an increase in server lag is a reasonable trade-off for getting rid of something that so few people regard as a problem.

I can think of a million and one fixes that are a much higher priority than this, if a fix is even needed at all.

Which is all irrelevant to user's computer specs.  This would all be happening server side.

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Old 12-26-2011, 10:31 PM   #42
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"Needing" on everything in a dungeon because "Oh I need it for an alt" is a WoW-mentality type playstyle that most mature players won't do.

We used to marvel about this phenomenon in guild chat, and set up guidelines that were CLEARLY announced BEFORE we hit a dungeon for guildies and non-guildies alike: You are only allowed to need on items that are the class you are playing in that dungeon/group. If you want items for another alt, you must play that alt, under-geared or not. Anyone who ignores those rules gets booted from group.

It was pretty simple, and pretty much 100% of folks who grouped adhered to it, because it was fair. I had such great guildies, that if they won something major, they declined on all further loot so others could have a chance. But they were pretty exceptional people and I understand most don't work that way, particularly in a pug.

As someone else suggested, just keep a list of names of greedy players and if you zone in via DF or happen to go into a group with one of them, you can bail. When the group leader sends you a tell asking why, you can calmly explain. Most pug groups will boot the greedy player. (I personally use my friends list to keep track of those types -- you can add notes beside their name so you have instant feedback any time you group, if you tend to lose pieces of paper, or forget who was the @ss).

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Old 12-26-2011, 11:28 PM   #43
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Wolfmyth wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Wolfmyth wrote:

Well the fix is simple isn't it? Only a SK can roll need on SK books. If the SK wan'ts a mystic book, they don't NEED it for their toon they are playing on and thus should be limited to GREED or PASS. Thought its pretty simple. If you "NEED" for an alt it is not NEED, you shouldn't be able to roll and win over the mystic for that mystic book, if he NEEDs it.

They already implemented this on test for two weeks, and the community raised holy heck over it because it created more problems than it solved.  Groups basically starting going like this:

  • SK Item drops.
  • Everyone who is not a SK hits Greed, not needing it, being reasonable people.
  • One person says "Hay, do you mind if I Need on that for an alt?"
  • Group says "Sure, no problem", being a group of reasonable people
  • Sony swoops in and says "MUHAHAHA - You're not a SK, you can't need on that! Even if everyone agrees, we still won't let you!" (*)
  • The person that could use it on an alt then has the choice of asking the leader to reset group options, so he can roll greed, and everyone else could switch to decline, or pestering the winner pretty please for a trade after the fact, either way slowing down and possibly irritating the group.  Or just saying to heck with it, and not getting the item everyone agreed they could have.

Yes, there are jerks in the game.  But screwing with the loot mechanics of groups of reasonable people just punished the reasonable people, punished guild groups, punished groups of friends, punished raids, and the jerks still found ways to be jerks.

(*) Apologies to Rothgar, who truly did have the best of intentions when he put it in......

So why doesn't the winner of GREED just pass it on if they don't mind?

Why can't you be an Adult and stop asking for Nanny to make the Jerks play nice who woudl not anyway

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Old 12-26-2011, 11:35 PM   #44
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kahonen wrote:

I'm still waiting for someone in favour of this change to indicate something that SOE can do to the game which will solve the problem better, quicker and easier than what those against the change have already achieved through simple communication.

Anyone?

+1

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Old 12-26-2011, 11:40 PM   #45
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[email protected] wrote:

Wolfmyth wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Wolfmyth wrote:

Well the fix is simple isn't it? Only a SK can roll need on SK books. If the SK wan'ts a mystic book, they don't NEED it for their toon they are playing on and thus should be limited to GREED or PASS. Thought its pretty simple. If you "NEED" for an alt it is not NEED, you shouldn't be able to roll and win over the mystic for that mystic book, if he NEEDs it.

They already implemented this on test for two weeks, and the community raised holy heck over it because it created more problems than it solved.  Groups basically starting going like this:

  • SK Item drops.
  • Everyone who is not a SK hits Greed, not needing it, being reasonable people.
  • One person says "Hay, do you mind if I Need on that for an alt?"
  • Group says "Sure, no problem", being a group of reasonable people
  • Sony swoops in and says "MUHAHAHA - You're not a SK, you can't need on that! Even if everyone agrees, we still won't let you!" (*)
  • The person that could use it on an alt then has the choice of asking the leader to reset group options, so he can roll greed, and everyone else could switch to decline, or pestering the winner pretty please for a trade after the fact, either way slowing down and possibly irritating the group.  Or just saying to heck with it, and not getting the item everyone agreed they could have.

Yes, there are jerks in the game.  But screwing with the loot mechanics of groups of reasonable people just punished the reasonable people, punished guild groups, punished groups of friends, punished raids, and the jerks still found ways to be jerks.

(*) Apologies to Rothgar, who truly did have the best of intentions when he put it in......

So why doesn't the winner of GREED just pass it on if they don't mind?

Why can't you be an Adult and stop asking for Nanny to make the Jerks play nice who woudl not anyway

By this slippery-slope logic anyone who doesn't just use FFA loot is letting SOE babysit their group... ? 

What I really, truly do not understand is that since heirloom items are tradable for 24hrs why is this an issue? If someone wins something that you want for an alt, send them a tell and offer to pay for it. It's what I've been doing for a while now. If the person doesn't want the money, cool that's their deal, or maybe they don't want to trade it to you at all. Maybe they want it to transmute for adornment items for their lvl 90 instead of it sitting in your shared bank for that lv 24 SK you're never going to level anyway.

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Old 12-27-2011, 12:08 AM   #46
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Roslyn wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Wolfmyth wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

Wolfmyth wrote:

Well the fix is simple isn't it? Only a SK can roll need on SK books. If the SK wan'ts a mystic book, they don't NEED it for their toon they are playing on and thus should be limited to GREED or PASS. Thought its pretty simple. If you "NEED" for an alt it is not NEED, you shouldn't be able to roll and win over the mystic for that mystic book, if he NEEDs it.

They already implemented this on test for two weeks, and the community raised holy heck over it because it created more problems than it solved.  Groups basically starting going like this:

  • SK Item drops.
  • Everyone who is not a SK hits Greed, not needing it, being reasonable people.
  • One person says "Hay, do you mind if I Need on that for an alt?"
  • Group says "Sure, no problem", being a group of reasonable people
  • Sony swoops in and says "MUHAHAHA - You're not a SK, you can't need on that! Even if everyone agrees, we still won't let you!" (*)
  • The person that could use it on an alt then has the choice of asking the leader to reset group options, so he can roll greed, and everyone else could switch to decline, or pestering the winner pretty please for a trade after the fact, either way slowing down and possibly irritating the group.  Or just saying to heck with it, and not getting the item everyone agreed they could have.

Yes, there are jerks in the game.  But screwing with the loot mechanics of groups of reasonable people just punished the reasonable people, punished guild groups, punished groups of friends, punished raids, and the jerks still found ways to be jerks.

(*) Apologies to Rothgar, who truly did have the best of intentions when he put it in......

So why doesn't the winner of GREED just pass it on if they don't mind?

Why can't you be an Adult and stop asking for Nanny to make the Jerks play nice who woudl not anyway

By this slippery-slope logic anyone who doesn't just use FFA loot is letting SOE babysit their group... ? 

What I really, truly do not understand is that since heirloom items are tradable for 24hrs why is this an issue? If someone wins something that you want for an alt, send them a tell and offer to pay for it. It's what I've been doing for a while now. If the person doesn't want the money, cool that's their deal, or maybe they don't want to trade it to you at all. Maybe they want it to transmute for adornment items for their lvl 90 instead of it sitting in your shared bank for that lv 24 SK you're never going to level anyway.

me thinks you do not know what a slippery slope is.

The people I group with are Adults and communicate what we are rolling for and if it is ok to role for an alt when they ask me to bring my well geared main who deso'nt need anythign there If I do PUG I let the leader and others tell me the lloot rules and if I notice someone being a Jerk and neededing on everything I make a note not to group with them again and then let my guild and friends know the type of person they are so they don't group with that jerk in other words let the player community police the jerks and stop expecting SoE to punish those who aren't jerks becuase of those that are jerks.

I do not Roll on toons that I"m not leveling and dont' plan to play and only if they are close to the level(nice try at poisening the well there with a baseless assumption) i'm rolling on like 1 or 2 levels. 5 max. of course my friends and guild have always been willing to play the toons needed to succeed in the objective becuase we can state at the beginning who we are rolling for and just roll need no problems and get on with playing the game instead of stopping at every roll and discussing who is going to decline go for greed or need. the trade within 48 hours is for those who make a mistake and want to rectifiy it not for a jerk who thinks it would be a great way to make money off of others bad luck on rolls.  the need before greed was put in to make the instance runs go more smoothly not so that jerks could be jerks and others could be whine about them being jerks instead of letting the community handle them. this argument has already been done with people on each side saying the same things the one in answer to those who want mechanics put in place that will not punish those it is intended to but those who want to play the game and be good community members.

IF I sound short about it all is becuase I've been there done that with this discussion before go to the test forum adn look upt the need before greed thread when they tried to change the mechanics to what the op wanted.

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Old 12-27-2011, 12:44 AM   #47
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Roslyn wrote:

What I really, truly do not understand is that since heirloom items are tradable for 24hrs why is this an issue?

Because it was a pain in rear to sort it out manually after every fight for those that felt the existing mechanic worked fine.

As an enableable *option*, it's a good idea.   As a mandatory change to all group mechanics, it caused more irritation than it solved.

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Old 12-27-2011, 02:05 AM   #48
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Ah was talking about spells/abilities, not gear/items/weapons

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Old 12-27-2011, 01:13 PM   #49
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Luterin wrote:

kahonen wrote:

And how, exactly, does the game know that you do actually need an item on the alt?

Here's an idea, if you need it for an alt, how about saying "I need that for an alt, do you mind if I NEED on it?"

Yah, revolutionary I know!

The game knows what characters you have and what levels they are, and if you don't match the criteria you will not be able to "Need on Alt".

Perhaps using the 'need' option should automatically bind it to you - no-trade and attuned. That would solve the vast majority of the problem in this and other MMO's.

Otherwise, everyone just ends up 'needing' - last time I did a dungeon finder, some idiot was needing on everything - so I did the same, functionally reducing it to 'greed' rolls anyway. Then when they REALLY need an item - tough crap, I'm needing on it too - someone else is going to do that to me the whole time and not expect me to hit 'need' to even the playing field.

But then - this is WHY my Guardian solos 90% of the time, unless I'm grouping with guildies - then I can leave it on auto-greed and do the dungeon properly instead of dealing with stupidity and drama.

If you really WANT an item for an alt and don't have time or consideration to ASK the group first then you should go solo anyway. Last time someone in the group 'asked' for a potential drop the whole group was like 'sure whatever'.

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Old 12-27-2011, 03:36 PM   #50
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If you really need "items", group with people you know and trust.  Otherwise just use the instance or group for XP and a good time.  Like the poster above...Autogreed and forget about it.

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Old 12-27-2011, 10:57 PM   #51
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[email protected] Bayle wrote:

Luterin wrote:

kahonen wrote:

And how, exactly, does the game know that you do actually need an item on the alt?

Here's an idea, if you need it for an alt, how about saying "I need that for an alt, do you mind if I NEED on it?"

Yah, revolutionary I know!

The game knows what characters you have and what levels they are, and if you don't match the criteria you will not be able to "Need on Alt".

Perhaps using the 'need' option should automatically bind it to you - no-trade and attuned. That would solve the vast majority of the problem in this and other MMO's.

Otherwise, everyone just ends up 'needing' - last time I did a dungeon finder, some idiot was needing on everything - so I did the same, functionally reducing it to 'greed' rolls anyway. Then when they REALLY need an item - tough crap, I'm needing on it too - someone else is going to do that to me the whole time and not expect me to hit 'need' to even the playing field.

But then - this is WHY my Guardian solos 90% of the time, unless I'm grouping with guildies - then I can leave it on auto-greed and do the dungeon properly instead of dealing with stupidity and drama.

If you really WANT an item for an alt and don't have time or consideration to ASK the group first then you should go solo anyway. Last time someone in the group 'asked' for a potential drop the whole group was like 'sure whatever'.

That bind thing doesnt work where the group asks someone to change to an alt to balance the group and they agree on the condition they can roll for their main.

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Old 12-27-2011, 11:49 PM   #52
Roslyn

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[email protected] wrote:

Roslyn wrote:

[email protected] wrote:

me thinks you do not know what a slippery slope is.

The people I group with are Adults and communicate what we are rolling for and if it is ok to role for an alt when they ask me to bring my well geared main who deso'nt need anythign there If I do PUG I let the leader and others tell me the lloot rules and if I notice someone being a Jerk and neededing on everything I make a note not to group with them again and then let my guild and friends know the type of person they are so they don't group with that jerk in other words let the player community police the jerks and stop expecting SoE to punish those who aren't jerks becuase of those that are jerks.

I do not Roll on toons that I"m not leveling and dont' plan to play and only if they are close to the level(nice try at poisening the well there with a baseless assumption) i'm rolling on like 1 or 2 levels. 5 max. of course my friends and guild have always been willing to play the toons needed to succeed in the objective becuase we can state at the beginning who we are rolling for and just roll need no problems and get on with playing the game instead of stopping at every roll and discussing who is going to decline go for greed or need. the trade within 48 hours is for those who make a mistake and want to rectifiy it not for a jerk who thinks it would be a great way to make money off of others bad luck on rolls.  the need before greed was put in to make the instance runs go more smoothly not so that jerks could be jerks and others could be whine about them being jerks instead of letting the community handle them. this argument has already been done with people on each side saying the same things the one in answer to those who want mechanics put in place that will not punish those it is intended to but those who want to play the game and be good community members.

IF I sound short about it all is becuase I've been there done that with this discussion before go to the test forum adn look upt the need before greed thread when they tried to change the mechanics to what the op wanted.

I've already made a counter-point to literally everything you've said. You're really lucky that you play with good people, but please realize that it's not like that for most everyone else and when an item is taken not grouping with them again doesn't bring it back. I don't understand why simply having an option is so terrible for people who are fortunate enough not to have the problem. Also, not sure why you'd take it personally what I said about people taking things for alts they don't level lol, but okay, was just an example of how easy it is to say 'I have an alt I could use that item on.'

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