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Old 10-05-2007, 05:59 PM   #31
Gareorn

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[email protected] wrote:

As it stands Scouts are literally the #1 class that tends to not follow the tank, not follow the group .. and get themselves and the group killed by wandering around touching things they shouldn't.

Could you please point us to the specific statistics please?   I'm not saying I don't believe you, but that is one incredible claim if you can't back it up with some real data.
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Old 10-05-2007, 06:20 PM   #32
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I recently created an Arasai Brigand simply because of the stealth ability.  I consider stealth to be class-defining in my case.  There are times when all I want to do is go through a zone without having to fight, since I'm a soloist who enjoys exploring.  But if I do choose to fight, I want to be able to sneak up behind my target and attack from there in hopes of keeping the fight brief.  I cannot do that if the mob sees through stealth.  I can understand the logic of scout mobs seeing through stealth since scouts know what to look for.  The same applies to the inviz classes.

I'm glad that there are no mobs there that can see inviz.  Let's see how long it stays that way.

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Old 10-05-2007, 06:34 PM   #33
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Stealth, or rather group stealth used to be pretty much a class defining ability. Before SoE started play bowling with the classes I generally went /anon on my swashie in tier5 (somethin I did on my healers in tier3) because of repeatedly getting /tells and ninja-invites. Why? Because of group stealth and how it made life so much easier when goin to naggy. That was back then tho, today stealth is about as usefull as a tin arrow versus Avatar of Mischief.

Anyways, I dont think the disagreement is that no mobs should see stealth, but the notion from OP that all mobs should see stealth. SoS is a fairly boring zone, but one thing I really liked was how you with selective killing could open up 'lanes' of non-see invis mobs, due to some but not all seeing. Of course, when you finally have your nice pathway, some idiot comes and kills them and the see invis ones spawn *grins*

Dont make stealth essential or gam breaking, but give it some use beyond allowing you to use stealthed attacks.

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Old 10-05-2007, 06:38 PM   #34
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What's wrong with allowing stealth to work?I mean, it might let your scouts... wait for it.... SCOUT the area before you move?Are you worried about all those darned scout plat farmers? Don't worry... all the plat farmers made Wizards.
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:11 PM   #35
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Guys, there is no way that SOE is going to let this go live with no see invis mobs. It just isn't gonna happen. It would make it too easy to just jump from name to name with no risk. And I say that as a ranger who absolutely delights in acting like a scout.

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Old 10-05-2007, 10:17 PM   #36
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Problem is there is no middle ground. You're either in stealth or you arent. It either works or it doesnt work. I liked the part in the Hooloh hat quest where you had to sneak to the top of the Nest of the Great Egg for your update.

This required a new approach since if you got too close to a mob they would see you. I'd like stealth to work in a similar way.

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Old 10-05-2007, 10:31 PM   #37
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Iseabeil wrote:

That was back then tho, today stealth is about as usefull as a tin arrow versus Avatar of Mischief.

Ya know, with all the problems that Bristlebane's avatar causes, I would laugh if the secret to beating him really was using tin arrows. Sorry. I have a seriously warped sense of humor. I couldn't help but giggle about it.

As for the stealth debate... Stealth is not "THE" class defining ability of a scout, but it is one of the class defining abilities, just as feign death is one of the class defining abilities of a monk/bruiser, but now literally anyone can feign death. However, I'm kind of in agreeance with the others here. Every other class defining ability has a failure rate including feign death. Stealth does not. The mob either sees through it, or it doesn't. Currently, there is not a single mob in the zone that sees through stealth, and this should be fixed. I'm not saying make every single mob see through it, but you should have a couple at least be able to see through.

What? Do they all stand around totally clueless with their thumbs up their rear? You're telling me that there shouldn't or couldn't even be one single mob in there that isn't more situationally aware than his colleagues?

If you're going the route of needing stealth to position yourself etc. and how mobs shouldn't see you in stealth at all, then I think there should be a limit on how long stealth lasts. After all, if you're standing behind someone, eventually their hackles are gonna raise when they get the feeling something's watching them. They may hear you breathing, whatever. They may see your footprints tracking on the ground, or feel the brush of air as you pass. Moving around with all that gear on is work, and chain and metals weapons are both noisy and heavy. Eventually, you need to breathe deeper than normal for air. If you can track things that are stealthed or invis, why can't they?

By the way, making a few of the mobs see through isn't just going to change things for scouts. It'll change it for mages too, as well as anyone else who may be using totems.

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Old 10-06-2007, 04:17 AM   #38
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This is Shard of Fear, it shouldn't be a easy zone, mobs should be really really more powerfull. And they should see invis/stealth to avoid the fast farming groups ( or even solo). It's not because mobs see stealth that rogues will be useless, in a group you can still in stealth and attack, and do your freaking useless backstab.

Some people ONLY want the zone to stay so, because it will be easy for them to kill all named and finish the instance in no time.

And it should be more difficult than Nizara.

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Old 10-06-2007, 04:35 AM   #39
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well sure nothing sees invis. and there is no loot atm, why? because it's test and those things (see invis. and the real loot) get added when the zones go live.

its enough of a 'free peek' at the new zone without making it to hard for test server people to even zone in. don't worry after you all kill a bunch of the mobs they can easy adjust just how tuff they are and they will SMILEY now they can just have the kill logs to study, so go ahead kill kill, say its to easy hehe 

if Fear will be more than a shadow of it's real self , once it's live you're gonna need a "break-in group" remember those? SMILEY

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Old 10-06-2007, 04:42 AM   #40
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Some see stealth patrols would be nice, almost all see stealth like unrest wouldn't be so good imo. Detection when you get to close to someone or even use of the environment and so on(stuff like splinter cell,metal gear, tenchu....) would be great, but i doubt this will happen with all the other stuff they have to do.

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Old 10-06-2007, 08:22 AM   #41
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Sunlei wrote:

well sure nothing sees invis. and there is no loot atm, why? because it's test and those things (see invis. and the real loot) get added when the zones go live.

its enough of a 'free peek' at the new zone without making it to hard for test server people to even zone in. don't worry after you all kill a bunch of the mobs they can easy adjust just how tuff they are and they will SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /> now they can just have the kill logs to study, so go ahead kill kill, say its to easy hehe 

if Fear will be more than a shadow of it's real self , once it's live you're gonna need a "break-in group" remember those? SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />

Test doesn't get a shot at the real loot untill a zone goes live? That's a new one to me. I'm kinda puzzled here so I really would like to hear an explanation for this.

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Old 10-06-2007, 03:39 PM   #42
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Ok, while I agree that some mobs should see invis, making them all see invis is kind of over the top.  I look at stealth/invis as an archetype skill.  The same way that fighters taunt, healers heal, and mages cast spells.  Yes there is crossover between other classes being able to accomplish those things, but for the most part when I think scout, I think invis.

Making a zone hard is not going to make it better.  It's about the content inside that makes it interesting.   Someone mentioned that SoS is a boring zone, and I do have to agree that now, after being out for a year and a half, with us being at 70, that is true.  I still think that it is one of the best dungeons in the game though, because when it first came out, when everyone was 60, it was a challenge, and it also had a TON of quests, offered better gear compared to what we had, and scaled with difficulty the deeper you went.

With EoF, the new dungeons lacked a lot of that.  I blame most of it on the fact that they made the expansion from 1-70, so they had a lot to focus on, and not enough resources to give everything the attention it deserved.  Nizara also falls into this category. 

Nizara is hard, and to a point of being rediculous vs the rewards one would receive from going in there.  First, it is a PITA to navigate.  Second, with the social aggro set up the way it was, if you didn't have a mezzer, your tank would need the finesse of a Russian balerina in order to pull one a group of mobs without also bringing down the entire zone on top of your heads.  Now having to pull that way is fine every once in a while, but with Nizara, it was almost every time.  The end boss in Nizara was a challenge, and you needed a good group with a good strategy to take her out, and I have no problem with that.  The content (gear, quests, etc) was lacking though, and that does not help to give reason to go into a zone.  Yes I have cleared it on more than one occasion, but the desire to go there is pretty much nil, imo.

Unrest was a good instance. However, once you had gotten your class hat, chest piece, and whatever other shiny item out of there, again no reason to go back.  I like Unrest, and now that it is a persistent zone it is much better, because with the amount of time it took when it first came out, it wasn't viable for a lot of people to run that play on a limited schedule.

Castle Mistmoore, falls into the Nizara category, very difficult with not a lot of reward (with the exception of League gear, shoulders, pants, and a couple Sig quests) .  It will probably be a good zone to grind XP once RoK comes out, but other than that I don't think it offers that much.

In conclusion, my hope is that they make the Shard of Fear challenging, while also offering enough rewards to make people want to keep going back into it.

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Old 10-06-2007, 03:55 PM   #43
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Hm for me no dungeon had a faster interessting to boring ratio than sos, maybe it's just the art of this dungeon which made me sick for some reason.
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Old 10-06-2007, 07:10 PM   #44
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Ookami-san wrote:
[email protected] DLere wrote:

  Well, lets see.

 Taunts are contested skill checks

 Healers can be stifled.

 Damage spells can be resisted/mitigated

 Pets can be killed

 But stealth should be a get-through-the-zone-free card?  

Not saying stealth should be a get-through-the-zone-free card, but a little more use of a CLASS DEFINING skill would be nice for a change.

How can an ability that any class can use be classified as a class defining skill?  Anyone with a couple of gold in their pocket can buy totems to give them stealth or invisibility.  How "class defining" is it when a Templar is able to move undetected through a zone next to your swashbuckler?

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Old 10-06-2007, 07:52 PM   #45
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[email protected] wrote:
Hm for me no dungeon had a faster interessting to boring ratio than sos, maybe it's just the art of this dungeon which made me sick for some reason.
Claymore did it for me. I loved SOS until I did the Claymore line twice on Venekor. Now I'm dragging through it on one of my LDL girls and one of my AB girls. I'm sick of it... POA comes in as a close second as my least favorite because I'm sick of seeing it.
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Old 10-07-2007, 12:19 PM   #46
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[email protected] wrote:

This is Shard of Fear, it shouldn't be a easy zone, mobs should be really really more powerfull. And they should see invis/stealth to avoid the fast farming groups ( or even solo). It's not because mobs see stealth that rogues will be useless, in a group you can still in stealth and attack, and do your freaking useless backstab.

Some people ONLY want the zone to stay so, because it will be easy for them to kill all named and finish the instance in no time.

And it should be more difficult than Nizara.

Nope.This is a casual game. Heroic encounters should be balanced for a 3-character group of the same level , playing for under an hour, in treasured gear.And my opinion is as valid as yours is.
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Old 10-07-2007, 01:39 PM   #47
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MrWolfie wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

This is Shard of Fear, it shouldn't be a easy zone, mobs should be really really more powerfull. And they should see invis/stealth to avoid the fast farming groups ( or even solo). It's not because mobs see stealth that rogues will be useless, in a group you can still in stealth and attack, and do your freaking useless backstab.

Some people ONLY want the zone to stay so, because it will be easy for them to kill all named and finish the instance in no time.

And it should be more difficult than Nizara.

Nope.This is a casual game. Heroic encounters should be balanced for a 3-character group of the same level , playing for under an hour, in treasured gear.And my opinion is as valid as yours is.
Even it is heroic encounter, there should be difference between each encounter. Some are easier and some are harder.We have enough easy encounters already.
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Old 10-07-2007, 01:56 PM   #48
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Brega wrote:
Sunlei wrote:

well sure nothing sees invis. and there is no loot atm, why? because it's test and those things (see invis. and the real loot) get added when the zones go live.

its enough of a 'free peek' at the new zone without making it to hard for test server people to even zone in. don't worry after you all kill a bunch of the mobs they can easy adjust just how tuff they are and they will SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" /> now they can just have the kill logs to study, so go ahead kill kill, say its to easy hehe 

if Fear will be more than a shadow of it's real self , once it's live you're gonna need a "break-in group" remember those? SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />

Test doesn't get a shot at the real loot untill a zone goes live? That's a new one to me. I'm kinda puzzled here so I really would like to hear an explanation for this.

Brega - 70 Ranger, Test Server

Especially as part of what we test is the loot. "11 out of 12 groups got the theoretically ultra-rare spawn, and we didn't?""Well, we killed six nameds and got nothing but treasured loot...""This chest keeps lodging itself in a mountain halfway across the zone..."Test gets the real loot, too.  Sometimes in all sorts of fascinating incarnations.  It's just that no-one but us cares. SMILEY
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Old 10-07-2007, 02:33 PM   #49
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Gareorn wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

As it stands Scouts are literally the #1 class that tends to not follow the tank, not follow the group .. and get themselves and the group killed by wandering around touching things they shouldn't.

Could you please point us to the specific statistics please?   I'm not saying I don't believe you, but that is one incredible claim if you can't back it up with some real data.
I don't even know why I'm responding to this, because it was so far out in left field that it made my head hurt reading it.  Are we playing the same game?  Have you made it past level 20?You need to look around a bit more if you haven't noticed this.  It's so frequent there are even comic strips that touch on it.Here's your statistical proof Chuckles:
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Old 10-07-2007, 02:39 PM   #50
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[email protected] wrote:

As it stands Scouts are literally the #1 class that tends to not follow the tank, not follow the group .. and get themselves and the group killed by wandering around touching things they shouldn't.

I couldn't agree more with this observation.  Based on my experience scouts tend to wander off and OH MY we have adds!Not saying all scouts do this, just a sizeable portion of them.
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Old 10-07-2007, 03:01 PM   #51
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A. It's not factual, it's an opinion. B. Reading it in a comic strip doesn't make it true. C. It's improper to introduce conjecture aimed at insulting an entire archtype. D. Doing so makes you look silly.
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Old 10-07-2007, 03:04 PM   #52
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[email protected] wrote:
Gareorn wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

As it stands Scouts are literally the #1 class that tends to not follow the tank, not follow the group .. and get themselves and the group killed by wandering around touching things they shouldn't.

Could you please point us to the specific statistics please?   I'm not saying I don't believe you, but that is one incredible claim if you can't back it up with some real data.
I don't even know why I'm responding to this, because it was so far out in left field that it made my head hurt reading it.  Are we playing the same game?  Have you made it past level 20?You need to look around a bit more if you haven't noticed this.  It's so frequent there are even comic strips that touch on it.Here's your statistical proof Chuckles:

I so love those comics. Hehehe. It's not statistical proof so much as it is an observation, and one that I happen to agree with. It seems like most of the adds I've gotten have occured because the scout wandered off to look at things thinking, "I'm in stealth. I'm safe to have a look see."

I think the urge scouts have to wander off and bring adds comes from the the feeling they get that they should be wandering around "scouting" the area... even if said area doesn't need scouting. Then they meet Johnny Q. Uber Mob who sees trough invis and stealth and spots them, either because they've gotten careless or just plain silly.

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Old 10-07-2007, 04:29 PM   #53
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[email protected] wrote:
Gareorn wrote:
[email protected] wrote:

As it stands Scouts are literally the #1 class that tends to not follow the tank, not follow the group .. and get themselves and the group killed by wandering around touching things they shouldn't.

Could you please point us to the specific statistics please?   I'm not saying I don't believe you, but that is one incredible claim if you can't back it up with some real data.
I don't even know why I'm responding to this, because it was so far out in left field that it made my head hurt reading it.  Are we playing the same game?  Have you made it past level 20?You need to look around a bit more if you haven't noticed this.  It's so frequent there are even comic strips that touch on it.Here's your statistical proof Chuckles:

LOL That comic is awesome!  Good laughs!

BTW I see more Inqs and other classes besides Scouts that roam and get adds all the time!  Shame on all u to be blamin us Scouts!

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Old 10-07-2007, 04:42 PM   #54
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Gareorn wrote:
A. It's not factual, it's an opinion. B. Reading it in a comic strip doesn't make it true. C. It's improper to introduce conjecture aimed at insulting an entire archtype. D. Doing so makes you look silly.
A. It's factual when we're discussing stealth.  Scouts are the only classes with stealth.  Because most of the scout classes rely on stealth for one or more attacks, they spend MORE time in stealth then out.  B. Yes it does.  Especially when people find the comic amusing.  Would it be as amusing if you swapped the ranger for any other class?  No it wouldn't.C. I like insulting archtypes.  But in case you haven't noticed, I wasn't exactly insulting anyone was I?  Just pointing out something that happens VERY frequently.  I say this as a Tank, and I say this as a Scout.D. I'm a very silly person.
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Old 10-07-2007, 06:10 PM   #55
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[email protected] wrote:
D. I'm a very silly person.
If you say so.  You're also unable to provide proof of your outrageous claims.  Punching out.
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Old 10-08-2007, 01:18 PM   #56
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Grats to those of you that have fabled and relic gear - but  please do not make this another zone that only a small percentage of people, that have time to waste away 40 hours a week playing, have time or gear to do.
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Old 10-08-2007, 01:29 PM   #57
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[email protected] wrote:
Grats to those of you that have fabled and relic gear - but  please do not make this another zone that only a small percentage of people, that have time to waste away 40 hours a week playing, have time or gear to do.

SMILEY

How dare they make a zone thats an actual challenge. SMILEY

I think the people that don't raid play it up and say its worse than it actually is. When me (templar) and my 2 friends (coercer, zerker) didn't raid (we all had treasued/legendary gear)we used to trio every instance besides niz back when HoF was hard.

Why don't you guys at least try to get better at playing your class instead of asking for zones to be a walk in the park.

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Old 10-08-2007, 02:00 PM   #58
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[email protected] wrote:
Grats to those of you that have fabled and relic gear - but  please do not make this another zone that only a small percentage of people, that have time to waste away 40 hours a week playing, have time or gear to do.

I don't think people are asking for a group zone that only raid-geared people can enter. They're asking for a group zone that is an actual challenge. Some people actually like being pushed to and beyond their limits to achieve something that may seem impossible. What is wrong with have just one zone out of the many that are coming out and the many that are already here that actually provides this challenge? Halls of Fate? 65s in treasured gear are clearing it. Unrest? It's more of a giant riddle than a challenge. Once you figure out the riddle, it's easy peasy. Plus, they made it persistant so that you don't have to do it in one sitting. Nizara so far is the only zone that provides an actual challenge to a group, and even then, I have gone in there with groups who were not raid-geared and in a less-than-optimal setup... and cleared the zone.

As it stands right now, this zone is no challenge at all to anyone. Anyone remember the Plane of Fear in EQ1? OMG! You couldn't move in there without wiping, and if you were anywhere within range of a fearling, it was too late. They saw you, and they were bringing friends. I lost count of the number of times I had to have my corpse retrieved for me by SOE because I literally couldn't get to it. Having the Shard of Fear as easy as it currently is is a disappointment and a let down, especially to those who remember how Fear used to be.

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Old 10-08-2007, 03:14 PM   #59
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Then you are not reading the same post I am - scroll back a few pages and read - unrest difficulty zone is fine - doesn't need to be much harder than that - just my opinion - and at least I can give one without making personal attacks like the person 2 posts above - you don't know me, you have never played with me and you don't know my friends.
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Old 10-08-2007, 03:22 PM   #60
Kizee

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[email protected] wrote:
Then you are not reading the same post I am - scroll back a few pages and read - unrest difficulty zone is fine - doesn't need to be much harder than that - just my opinion - and at least I can give one without making personal attacks like the person 2 posts above - you don't know me, you have never played with me and you don't know my friends.

Well don't bring the raid gear/non raid gear debate into this thread. Every instance is doable with treasured/legendary equipment and thats what SoE balances around.

IMO the only thing hard about unrest was figuring out the puzzles. The mobs are not overly tough.

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