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Old 11-14-2006, 06:00 AM   #31
mikemcmodmi

 
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Yea, the crusader iow.  We usually raid with 6 healers and buff up a 2nd tank.  G1:  Tank, Defiler, Templar.  G2:  Tank Defiler, Inquis.  G3:  Warden  G4:  Fury.  We used a Crusader in G1 since we almost never have 7 healers so wouldn't be able to buff up the 2nd tank without spreading the healers out.

Now we're going to pickup another healer.  So we're going:  G1:  Tank, Defiler, Templar, Warden  G2:  Tank, Defiler, Inquis.  G3:  Fury  G4:  Fury.  Palladins got some nice healing AAs and things along those lines so I'll prob put them with the 2nd tank as a shielder.  Then hopefully someone to put amends on.  Shadowknights got some interesting AAs with a siphon hate ability for group.  I'm not sure where I'll put them, maybe in the caster group.  I'll need to test some stuff out before deciding where to put them.  MIght be 2nd tank now, they got some nice AAs.

Sorry not trying to derail but this is what we've done and are planning on doing.

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Old 11-14-2006, 06:50 PM   #32
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With the exclusion of the phyiscal mit buff / Verdant Gasp, the Warden AAs do truely blow, even more so for raiding wardens.  Roots, useless in raid as the debuff is STILL tied to the epic root immunity, dps bonus, useless in raid, natures watch, well, has anyone ever got it to fire and not have the tank die on the next hit?With the cap raised, Urchin and is huge bonus to a MT group.  The first 30 seconds of a raid fight, regens are next to useless until we can keep up after debuffs are all put down, Urchin is going to shine well beyond anything that a Warden can offer to keep a single target MT up.  Ill have to see just how the raids with warden/fury mit plays out but I suspect that some changes will happen in the next couple of weeks.

Message Edited by FuzzBall on 11-14-2006 08:39 AM

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Old 11-14-2006, 10:26 PM   #33
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Wow, my experience is 100% the opposite.  Urchin blows.

There's no more of the heal a bit while the mob is being pulled, then when the mob's debuffed and wards are up sit there nuking until it's dead.  Mitigation doesn't absorb enough damage anymore so healing is needed through the entire fight.  I'd also say that hps > mitigation now when it comes to buffing a tank.

Urchin imo just isn't worth it.  You're better off having a fury healing instead of being stunned because so little is being absorbed.

In my raid experience in beta we tried both, fury and warden buffing the tank.  Warden blew the fury out of the water for tank buffage in the raids I was in.  I just wish I turned my logs on so I could parse this stuff out to make sure, but that was the feel I got.

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Old 11-14-2006, 10:36 PM   #34
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mikemcmodmike wrote:

Wow, my experience is 100% the opposite.  Urchin blows.

There's no more of the heal a bit while the mob is being pulled, then when the mob's debuffed and wards are up sit there nuking until it's dead.  Mitigation doesn't absorb enough damage anymore so healing is needed through the entire fight.  I'd also say that hps > mitigation now when it comes to buffing a tank.

Urchin imo just isn't worth it.  You're better off having a fury healing instead of being stunned because so little is being absorbed.

In my raid experience in beta we tried both, fury and warden buffing the tank.  Warden blew the fury out of the water for tank buffage in the raids I was in.  I just wish I turned my logs on so I could parse this stuff out to make sure, but that was the feel I got.




How did a warden blow a Fury away for buffing when our buffs are more or less the same?
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:47 PM   #35
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Well with the group mitigation buff we provide we can keep that up with very little power cost on the tank.  The tank was still taking shots for 3k or so easy from what I remember (remember my logs were off so I couldn't parse this out).  So with all the mitigation on the tank he was taking heavy shots with our buffs up.  When we tried a fury for Urchin on the tank he was still taking shots for 3k, with a warden in G1 he was still taking shots for 3k.  There seemed to be little difference between Urchin being up or having a warden in G1 buffing mitigation.

Then add for that 36 secs that Urchin was up the fury was stunned and there was less healing power on the tank.  The tank wasn't being topped off as well and the tank was hovering around the 50% mark for a lot longer then usual (pickup so might have been crap healers too).  Then when we put the warden in G1 the tank seemed to be mitigating about the same amount, more after the 36 secs were up but the point being healing was a lot easier and we had better healing power on the tank.  The tank wasn't hovering below green for as long.

What I took from all this is that Urchin wasn't worth it.  The healing power you lose from having a healer stunned isn't as good as more constant mitigation and greater healing power.  The days of mitigating so much damage and barely needing to heal are gone.  You need to heal all the time in raids now.

Plus our buffs USED to be the same.  The only thing we added was spores and wis (furies buff more agi for single target then we do).  Now we add 550 mitigation to group that furies don't give.  Plus we add 550 mitigation through solo cures.

Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 11-14-2006 09:49 AM

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Old 11-14-2006, 10:54 PM   #36
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mikemcmodmike wrote:

Well with the group mitigation buff we provide we can keep that up with very little power cost on the tank.  The tank was still taking shots for 3k or so easy from what I remember (remember my logs were off so I couldn't parse this out).  So with all the mitigation on the tank he was taking heavy shots with our buffs up.  When we tried a fury for Urchin on the tank he was still taking shots for 3k, with a warden in G1 he was still taking shots for 3k.  There seemed to be little difference between Urchin being up or having a warden in G1 buffing mitigation.

Then add for that 36 secs that Urchin was up the fury was stunned and there was less healing power on the tank.  The tank wasn't being topped off as well and the tank was hovering around the 50% mark for a lot longer then usual (pickup so might have been crap healers too).  Then when we put the warden in G1 the tank seemed to be mitigating about the same amount, more after the 36 secs were up but the point being healing was a lot easier and we had better healing power on the tank.  The tank wasn't hovering below green for as long.

What I took from all this is that Urchin wasn't worth it.  The healing power you lose from having a healer stunned isn't as good as more constant mitigation and greater healing power.  The days of mitigating so much damage and barely needing to heal are gone.  You need to heal all the time in raids now.

Plus our buffs USED to be the same.  The only thing we added was spores and wis (furies buff more agi for single target then we do).  Now we add 550 mitigation to group that furies don't give.  Plus we add 550 mitigation through solo cures.

Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 11-14-200609:49 AM


 

I guess my point is there isn't much difference with us being in the MT group and not being in the MT group.  The only difference is spores... wis... and 550 mit, since we can cast our other one from outside the group.  I see what you're saying though.

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Old 11-14-2006, 11:10 PM   #37
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Come play on a PvP server because these changes are going to rule in PvP.  I've seen wardens parse 1k DPS on Beta.  The cure AA's aren't that bad for raiding.  But for PvP the root tree and the melee tree are going to own face.
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Old 11-14-2006, 11:14 PM   #38
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Yea, a friend tried out the melee line for maxing dps.  He said he was parsing 900-1k dps.  What he did was take the double attack AA and the crit chance AA, then he used his spells instead of CAs for damage.  You can get a hefty dps increase going that way.  He still didn't use his CAs though (except maybe the AoE one).  The recast makes them not worth it.
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Old 11-14-2006, 11:15 PM   #39
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actually now we can also buff more agility than furies I think.. cuz we can get sotb upgraded to give more agi so just put tha ton the tank adn it should outweigh the little extra furies added over us.
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Old 11-14-2006, 11:20 PM   #40
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Hey, that's true.  I always cast sotb on the tank anyways.  I like to cap my mana regen and with a coercer and dirge in G1 it's so easy.  I forgot about sotb.
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Old 11-15-2006, 12:11 AM   #41
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Dragonrealms wrote:
actually now we can also buff more agility than furies I think.. cuz we can get sotb upgraded to give more agi so just put tha ton the tank adn it should outweigh the little extra furies added over us.


SOTB is a druid spell, not warden. This means Furies get it too, how then would this put us over the top?
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Old 11-15-2006, 12:25 AM   #42
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while it is true that all druids get SoTB,  dragonrealms is talking about the enhance:SoTB aa  that we get. Only wardens get that in their aa line, and not the furies.    Since the aa gives 2 ft +10% agility per rank,  we will be able to buff more agility, and more ft than our fury counterpart.
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Old 11-15-2006, 12:30 AM   #43
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Score 1 - 0 for Wardens!
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Old 11-15-2006, 02:10 AM   #44
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mikemcmodmike wrote:

Well with the group mitigation buff we provide we can keep that up with very little power cost on the tank.  The tank was still taking shots for 3k or so easy from what I remember (remember my logs were off so I couldn't parse this out).  So with all the mitigation on the tank he was taking heavy shots with our buffs up.  When we tried a fury for Urchin on the tank he was still taking shots for 3k, with a warden in G1 he was still taking shots for 3k.  There seemed to be little difference between Urchin being up or having a warden in G1 buffing mitigation.

Then add for that 36 secs that Urchin was up the fury was stunned and there was less healing power on the tank.  The tank wasn't being topped off as well and the tank was hovering around the 50% mark for a lot longer then usual (pickup so might have been crap healers too).  Then when we put the warden in G1 the tank seemed to be mitigating about the same amount, more after the 36 secs were up but the point being healing was a lot easier and we had better healing power on the tank.  The tank wasn't hovering below green for as long.

What I took from all this is that Urchin wasn't worth it.  The healing power you lose from having a healer stunned isn't as good as more constant mitigation and greater healing power.  The days of mitigating so much damage and barely needing to heal are gone.  You need to heal all the time in raids now.

Plus our buffs USED to be the same.  The only thing we added was spores and wis (furies buff more agi for single target then we do).  Now we add 550 mitigation to group that furies don't give.  Plus we add 550 mitigation through solo cures.

Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on 11-14-2006 09:49 AM


A very interesting statement (see in red above). Can you elaborate on why you think that is? Supposedly the changes are such that mobs no longer 1 shot players. So why is it that MT takes more damage? Is it the nature of diminishing returns? Mage with 1.5k Mitigation is not getting hit as bad as before but tank with 5.5k Mitigation is getting hit more? Leshii
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Old 11-15-2006, 06:46 AM   #45
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Jorack wrote:
while it is true that all druids get SoTB,  dragonrealms is talking about the enhance:SoTB aa  that we get. Only wardens get that in their aa line, and not the furies.    Since the aa gives 2 ft +10% agility per rank,  we will be able to buff more agility, and more ft than our fury counterpart.



Thanks for clearing this up for me.
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Old 11-15-2006, 06:38 PM   #46
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A number of people have mentioned the added mitigation wardens get from the EoF cure line.  They like to label wardens as the "defensve druid".  I've reviewed the buffs furies and wardens get a number of times.  Frankly, I have yet to see why people think wardens are defensive.  Apart from sandstorm which is unusable in its present form and spores we are pretty much equal with furies in the buff department. 

Note:  I already have 50 AAs from KoS, now I'm expected to dump ANOTHER 25 AAs to get the cure/mitigation benefits from EoF.  Furies get the majority of their offensive capabilities without using a single AA.  How is this considered parity between druids?

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Old 11-15-2006, 07:09 PM   #47
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Furies - we've had one on our MT group once, but it was situational. Urchin has a range on it and since most healers should be at Max Range anyway, Urchin is pointless since the range on it is shorter than max heal range.  Fury buffs are better for the DPS group.

With our Cure Line, now, there's no reason why we shouldn't make it to MT group. We now have 550 to add to the mit plus 1k worth of elemental resists without a stun. With the way they've changed our AA lines, they've really stepped it up as far as making a definitive line between the two classes.

At first, I didn't think our AA's were worth a lick, either. I had them explained to me and I'm actually surprised they went live, with how strong they are. Take a deep breath, relax, and actually play around with them. You'll be surprised on how good they are.

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Old 11-15-2006, 08:55 PM   #48
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Well to elaborate the mitigation cap used to be about 6500 vs a 74, 6k vs a 72 or something along those lines.  If you got really high mitigation your tank would absorb a lot of the damage.  This made it so that tank would only be hit for about 1k-1.5k once he was debuffed for dps.  This is barely above the amount a reactive heals for.  So if you got the tank's mitigation high enough wards were absorbing most of the damage with some left over for reactives.  Then we generally just healed the mob's specials and stuff.

Now the mitigation cap is 10k or so.  It's impossible to get your mitigation high enough to absorb the same amount of damage.  Mobs are hitting for 3k now so wards and reactives aren't enough to absorb almost all the damage.  I was having to direct heal a lot in the raids I went on.

This should be standard in all raids now.  The tank can't mitigate as much damage as they used to, Urchin or no.  So since more direct heals are needed, having a healer stunned hurts more now then before.

Btw, like I said I forgot to turn my log on so wasn't able to parse this stuff out (went on 3 raids and never noticed).  So the numbers are pulled out of my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but the principal is the same.

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