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Old 11-02-2005, 03:37 AM   #31
ForgottenFoundling

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Don't even bother with cambric items.  Get a sandcloth blouse made for raiding/grouping (+16 int) and can be obtained for 10-15g from any lvl 55 tailor. 
 
If you don't have cobalt pants and cap, get a pristine tailored specialists hat (+16 int) and sandcloth pantaloons (+16 int).  All of these are common crafted items and will run you considerably less than a producers cap or cambric blouse and pants (only +20 int).  Of course, if money is no object, then I'm sure your local tailor would be happy to sell big ticket items.
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Old 11-02-2005, 05:44 AM   #32
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I agree Troub dps need a boost why?
when you have no group and need to solo dps is a big issue for us, any class can do better even my inquisitor lol it's so ridiculous, ok i understand we are utility class, but we are scout too(mean dps).
Yeah we can kite but why the hell i have to run and aggro other mob and take more risk and time to kill mob when a ranger exemple come few arrow and the mob is dead or any class can kill with less risk and time than us.
WHY because our dps is the big prob, if they dont want to give us dps give us a charm with possibility to use the pet to attack... or something that make our dps something close to what is supposed be we are scout class too!!
 
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Old 11-02-2005, 05:34 PM   #33
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if they dont want to give us dps give us a charm with possibility to use the pet to attack...

 
Funny you would mention this...  Just yesterday I charmed 1 of the mobs in a heroic group of 3, had it fight the named while I killed off the other...  The named ended up killing the one I charmed so I mezed the named till I finished off the other...  Then I proceded to kill the named (snare and kited it and a little tanking to finish it off)...
 
Now, one of my lev 60 Troubador friend can solo blue con single target heroics...  She does it by starting off tanking, then when she gets low on health, mezes it and regens, then finishes it off once she gets enough health back....
 
My other lev 60 Troubador friend regularly kills the single ^ named harpy groups in PoF...  Starts by mezing the named, and killing off the 2 non-named, once they are dead, she kills off the named...
 

any class can kill with less risk and time than us.

 
My Level 60 Assassin could not kill any of these, except the single ^ named harpy group, but that is a really tough fight and have died a few times doing it....  For both my Troubador and my Assassin I usually opt to use 1 hand weapons and shield while soloing for the added avoidance.... On my Assassin I use the defensive stance which severly lowers my DPS (brings it in line with the DPS of a Troubador), because if I use Offensive or no stance, I take too much damage during the fight and more times than not would have to run from the fight....  I may be able to kill a little faster with my Assassin, but the down time between fights (which Troubadors do not have nearly as much because of thier health and power regen buffs) makes for much slower killing than I can do with a Troubador....
 
 
Troubadors have alot of different skills they can use, once you learn to put all these skills to work for you, you should have a much easier time and find that Troubadors are not as bad as you believe they are....
 
 
Parody - 50 Troubador  /  Gwern - 60 Assassin
 
 
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Old 11-02-2005, 06:42 PM   #34
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If you cant solo groups of four you arent doing it right. Remember that we have the ability to mez up to two targets and charm one while still being able to battle SMILEY
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Old 11-02-2005, 08:43 PM   #35
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If you come with the excuse, my dps is too low because I can not solo an heroic mob, dont expect any changes. You are not supposed to solo heroic mobs. Anyway you can always hope for the best.
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Old 11-02-2005, 10:09 PM   #36
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Dystopya wrote:
If you cant solo groups of four you arent doing it right.

Remember that we have the ability to mez up to two targets and charm one while still being able to battle SMILEY



Heh, we can mez more than 2. SMILEY
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Old 11-02-2005, 11:48 PM   #37
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I personaly think our dps is pretty much in line with all of the other abilites that we have.  The additions that we give to the group are mostly why our dps is as low as it is.  Which imo is very well balanced. Wait till you get Processinal of the Maestro, and you can prettend that you are doing 500 - 700 dps.   hehe but really its the group, but stil we can pretend.
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Old 11-03-2005, 06:03 AM   #38
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Funny you would mention this...  Just yesterday I charmed 1 of the mobs in a heroic group of 3, had it fight the named while I killed off the other...  The named ended up killing the one I charmed so I mezed the named till I finished off the other...  Then I proceded to kill the named (snare and kited it and a little tanking to finish it off)...
 
Now, one of my lev 60 Troubador friend can solo blue con single target heroics...  She does it by starting off tanking, then when she gets low on health, mezes it and regens, then finishes it off once she gets enough health back....
 
My other lev 60 Troubador friend regularly kills the single ^ named harpy groups in PoF...  Starts by mezing the named, and killing off the 2 non-named, once they are dead, she kills off the named...

You Know whats is real funny, First u talk about pepole fully geared with t6 and max lvl  with many master spell, because with no healer or regular bp like most pepole t4 t5 and adept1 spell  i wonder how you can do these... 3 mob and one named lol who can do that not a regular troubadour with a t5 t4 armor in the 50s.... compare apple with apple...


My Level 60 Assassin could not kill any of these, except the single ^ named harpy group, but that is a really tough fight and have died a few times doing it....  For both my Troubador and my Assassin I usually opt to use 1 hand weapons and shield while soloing for the added avoidance.... On my Assassin I use the defensive stance which severly lowers my DPS (brings it in line with the DPS of a Troubador), because if I use Offensive or no stance, I take too much damage during the fight and more times than not would have to run from the fight....  I may be able to kill a little faster with my Assassin, but the down time between fights (which Troubadors do not have nearly as much because of thier health and power regen buffs) makes for much slower killing than I can do with a Troubador....
 
 
Troubadors have alot of different skills they can use, once you learn to put all these skills to work for you, you should have a much easier time and find that Troubadors are not as bad as you believe they are....

Well its funny you say that my friend lvl 60 assassin can kill heroic mob with no problem, and my other friend too they none stop kill heroic mob(so easy to say)
I didnt say troubadour are bad i say we need dps boost we are scout,,,, not a healer class dps(who is most of time better dps) we supposed be a tier 4 dps our dps is far from that. as our regen health if u talk about the 55 per tick in battle...and the 35 per tick mana regen in battle it's not that huge....
Do we play the same class ?
If you that good with your troubadour GratzSMILEY please prove it with a pic in game of you killing the named solo in dof because im sorry i cant belive it...
 
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Old 11-03-2005, 10:05 AM   #39
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cidus wrote:

Funny you would mention this...  Just yesterday I charmed 1 of the mobs in a heroic group of 3, had it fight the named while I killed off the other...  The named ended up killing the one I charmed so I mezed the named till I finished off the other...  Then I proceded to kill the named (snare and kited it and a little tanking to finish it off)...
 
Now, one of my lev 60 Troubador friend can solo blue con single target heroics...  She does it by starting off tanking, then when she gets low on health, mezes it and regens, then finishes it off once she gets enough health back....
 
My other lev 60 Troubador friend regularly kills the single ^ named harpy groups in PoF...  Starts by mezing the named, and killing off the 2 non-named, once they are dead, she kills off the named...

You Know whats is real funny, First u talk about pepole fully geared with t6 and max lvl  with many master spell, because with no healer or regular bp like most pepole t4 t5 and adept1 spell  i wonder how you can do these... 3 mob and one named lol who can do that not a regular troubadour with a t5 t4 armor in the 50s.... compare apple with apple...


My Level 60 Assassin could not kill any of these, except the single ^ named harpy group, but that is a really tough fight and have died a few times doing it....  For both my Troubador and my Assassin I usually opt to use 1 hand weapons and shield while soloing for the added avoidance.... On my Assassin I use the defensive stance which severly lowers my DPS (brings it in line with the DPS of a Troubador), because if I use Offensive or no stance, I take too much damage during the fight and more times than not would have to run from the fight....  I may be able to kill a little faster with my Assassin, but the down time between fights (which Troubadors do not have nearly as much because of thier health and power regen buffs) makes for much slower killing than I can do with a Troubador....
 
 
Troubadors have alot of different skills they can use, once you learn to put all these skills to work for you, you should have a much easier time and find that Troubadors are not as bad as you believe they are....

Well its funny you say that my friend lvl 60 assassin can kill heroic mob with no problem, and my other friend too they none stop kill heroic mob(so easy to say)
I didnt say troubadour are bad i say we need dps boost we are scout,,,, not a healer class dps(who is most of time better dps) we supposed be a tier 4 dps our dps is far from that. as our regen health if u talk about the 55 per tick in battle...and the 35 per tick mana regen in battle it's not that huge....
Do we play the same class ?
If you that good with your troubadour GratzSMILEY please prove it with a pic in game of you killing the named solo in dof because im sorry i cant belive it...
 

It is very simple you know. You can choose the red or the blue pill. The red pill gives you buffs to help your grp to do more damage and better surive abilities. The blue pill gives you uber dps of T1 dps classes. You choose the red pill and you are [Removed for Content] about it. I think Neo would have been [Removed for Content] also. And there you are wanting the blue pill now. You made a choice. You choose for a troubadour. We already have soo much, Evac(scouts, wizard, sk and warden), health regen(zerker and troub), mana regen(bard and chanter ability), defensive buff(alot of classes have this), resist buffs(alot of classes have it, but we have 4resist buffs, while other classes only have 2), casting level buffs(warlock ability), proc buff(illusionist ability, warlock, and others, but troubs can keep that proc up all the time, while other classes can cast it for a few seconds every few minuts), speed buff(scouts ability), hate reduction song(our main ability), snare(ranger main ability), mezz(chanter main ability), charm(coercer main ability). Ok so we have alot of spells that could replace alot of shortcommings in a group. We can adapt to a group very well, we fit in any group. This is what we do. What makes troubs unique is that they buff casters VERY well. I am a lvl 60 warlock as main. And I can tell you, the troubadour is my hero. The hate reduction song helps me do more dps. The disonante note procs help me to use less mana for the same amount of damage. The health regen helps to heal up faster in case of AEs. I think you people lately are too much based on their dps. Even if they know they arent dps only. If a ranger that is actualy dps only in a group for most of it, would complain that a troub does more damage then him, I would understand the complaint. But a troubadour complaining that a paladin in some sitautions does more dps then him. Just accept that you can not be the best in everything. You already bring soooooo much to a grp. Let others bring something to the grp as form of dps. Dont be stupid and selfish, let others be usefull in the game also. I will be honest, I am very dps based with my warlock, because dps is the thing we do best. Troubadours buff grps the best. So warlocks should be very good at doing dps even the best in most cases, while troubadours should be teh best buffers in the game. As far as I am concerned I think its like that. PS : maybe this post will give you more dps, but to what cost ? you might loose a nice buff to it. Is it realy worth it ? I don't think so.

Message Edited by pharacyde on 11-02-2005 09:09 PM

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Old 11-03-2005, 08:30 PM   #40
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Yes Pharacyde, I understand your point.  But what you are asking troubadors to accept and enjoy is the job of a buffbot.  Our main job would be to follow the casters around as a pet.  Most people would like to be more active in their play style and not just a passive buffbot.  If I had selected this pettern of play then I should take what I get and be happy.  However, I did not select this when I created my toon a year ago.  This role was created for me in the revamp after I had already 10 months invested and 50 levels.  I am happy to help the casters look uber and powerful.  However, I too would like to ACTIVELY participate in the distruction of the mobs.  I dont like that I can af the warlock, put up my buffs, and go paint my house with no one even noticing I'm gone.  In short, I agree that troubs need a DPS boost.  Also a fix to reflection which is a very big dissapointment.   Do i expect to get either?  Nope.
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Old 11-03-2005, 09:23 PM   #41
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How about letting you cast a 30s buff on the Mage every 30 seconds complete with a huge "Troub helps" text in chat? No? You would participate, but I find it more fun to give the buff and do my little thing with a couple of sharp swords, and maybe save the day with a little mez thrown into the fray. You knew what you signed up for. The chance of bards beeing damage kings where slim indeed.
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Old 11-03-2005, 09:42 PM   #42
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Dear whiney bi%$#@&,
 
I'm a Troubador, I've lvl'd to 60.  I parsed pretty much the whole way up.  Generally I only group with high dps players and we'd pull as fast as we could.  Generally I grouped with wiz/warlock/bruiser/zerker/healer sometimes sub'n one of the classes for dirge/brig/assassin/monk/ranger.  We all have small dicks IRL so we like to show off our virtual dicks by going all out dps and post the parse in group.  You know pulling 2 groups of mobs having the bruiser/zerk use their massive ae attacks, wiz/war same etc etc.  Did I ever post top parse?, rarely.  However I was always in top 3.  Ok BFD top 3.  But here's the kicker.  Letting the parser run through 20 fights put me at the # 2 spot for dps and occasionally top spot.  Over 1 hr of fighting letting the parser run, more often than not I was number 1 in DPS.  So if you can't do high end dps, basically you suck and should prob go play wow or make a new class for EQ2.  Our [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is strong, and versitile, pull your head out and think outside the box.  Thank you for your time.
 

Message Edited by battlebard on 11-03-2005 08:45 AM

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Old 11-03-2005, 11:08 PM   #43
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I agree that most people who don't see our dps potential just aren't playing to our potential, though I have to admit you've got numbers which outdo mine.  I usually saw myself ending up 4th or 5th but that's more likely a function of my chosen task than of our low dps - I'm mez-happy.

That said, even on fights where I'm mezzing two mobs (our overachieving SK tank/puller has no sense of his own mortality and often requires a bit of tempering lol) my dps is above that of any healer in the group, save for when I see all their hits doubled by a lucky streak of Aria procs.  Longer-term (over an hour) I end up moving up a slot, and over a long, long time I tend to be either second or third for dps - right behind however many warlocks and wizards are in my group.   I haven't done any serious parsing since working out how best to use Precision (too early and it wastes massive healing power, too late and it's a waste itself) but I'd anticipate being able to claim a spot either near, or just behind, my roomie the warlock.  That ain't bad for a "tier 3" dps, but it brings up my thought on our class.

We're not really tier 3 dps any more than any class is locked into a tier.  Preds can, I'm sure, relegate themselves to T2 if they use the wrong abilities.  Healers can break out to a higher tier if they go all-out and crank int at the expense of other stats.  We, on the other hand, are not so restricted.  In fact, we troubadours are arguably the most fluid in terms of our damage tier, of any class.  If we spend most of our time mezzing we're healer dps.  Spend it on big dps though, and we can equal or excel T1.

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Old 11-03-2005, 11:17 PM   #44
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Yeah, we're pretty consistent DPS.  No, we aren't the best (nor should we be).  As has been pointed out, I can either buff the group and make things go faster, or I can buff myself to do more singular dps.  Typically, I side with the group buffing paragon.  Groups notice when I come and definitely notice when I leave.  I solo a lot as well and can take on some really difficult opponents given enough time (highest so far is lvl 58 named heroic harpy in PoF at lvl 55).  But, it took me ages.  I'm also fully rared out (equipment-wise) and have 95% of my spells at adept 3 or better. 

I have difficulty with all encounters except solo or grouped solos, but I CAN win if I'm patient and use strategy.  Is soloing to 60 recommended?  Not by this troubie, but if I had to do it, I could.

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Old 11-04-2005, 12:40 AM   #45
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ForgottenFoundling wrote:

Yeah, we're pretty consistent DPS.  No, we aren't the best (nor should we be).  As has been pointed out, I can either buff the group and make things go faster, or I can buff myself to do more singular dps.  Typically, I side with the group buffing paragon.  Groups notice when I come and definitely notice when I leave.  I solo a lot as well and can take on some really difficult opponents given enough time (highest so far is lvl 58 named heroic harpy in PoF at lvl 55).  But, it took me ages.  I'm also fully rared out (equipment-wise) and have 95% of my spells at adept 3 or better. 

I have difficulty with all encounters except solo or grouped solos, but I CAN win if I'm patient and use strategy.  Is soloing to 60 recommended?  Not by this troubie, but if I had to do it, I could.



I agree in the main with most of what you post; it's nice to see another troubie who recognises our worth and isn't afraid to say it SMILEY
 
Toughest mob (relatively) I ever took out solo was a level 57^^^ giant, at level 52.  No Processional, no Precision, no upgraded Shrill (for which I'd have KILLED at the time, and in retrospect did) and it took a good 35-40 minutes to whittle him down, but kill him I did.  Granted that was before orange/red mobs got the big resist/avoidance buff but I've taken down +4 ^^^ since the tweak - tough, but doable.  Couldn't have done it without the prizzie plus Bria plus the occasional hit off a manastone (at one point the manastone was all that helped me recover when I didn't have the power to mez, took 5 mins of mezzing to regain 50% power and off I went again)  The key is not to succomb to impatience.  If you're going after big prey solo, be prepared for it to take a while because our dps is decent but our tanking is weak, and so a long-term fight depends on using somewhat underhanded techniques.  At 60, the mez-to-death definitely is easier thanks to Precision, which ability also confers a much greater potential to take down grouped singles - don't believe me, get in Alin's range of a group, fire up Precision followed by Kian's, Zander's, Bellow, Processional, Descante, Alin's and if there're still any standing work 'em over with a shrill (that montage should deal close to 3-4k per mob, and if done right interrupts their opening CAs as well as dropping their skill, str and agi shortly after they reach you).  If the mobs aren't dead, fire off another round of everything except Processional and Descante.  Do avoid groups of cyclopes and other healing classes though; those are a serious PITA.

 
I got you beat on one aspect at least tho Poofter... When I took down my 58^^^ at 54, I had only 3 of the abilities I use upgraded; Aria Ad3, Mez Ad3, Shrill M2.  The rest of my stuff was 90% adept 1 hehe SMILEY
 
I agree though; I wouldn't recommend soloing to any bard who wants to stay sane... Get a group with at least one tank, one mage and one healer and go to town.  You'll be happier, you'll see a huge difference due to your own contribution, and you'll earn new friends just by virtue of how much better they think you make them look.  The fact that WE know it's really OUR dissonant note can be kept between just us SMILEY  So long as the warlock gets the aggro too, it's all good.  SMILEY
 
Edited to add some (bigger) paragraph breaks because the forum software sucks SMILEY

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Old 11-04-2005, 06:18 AM   #46
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IMHO, whether one can solo a heroic mob given 30+ minutes is irrelevant.  Doing that may be "fun" for some, but it has no rational relationship to game balance, which is what this discussion is all about.  
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:14 PM   #47
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WooTastic wrote:
IMHO, whether one can solo a heroic mob given 30+ minutes is irrelevant.  Doing that may be "fun" for some, but it has no rational relationship to game balance, which is what this discussion is all about.  


Sorry, my point was that we can not only do some nice targeted dps in the right group makeup (and remember, mages are far from the only ones who benefit from our procs)  but that we can also, while not having much trouble milling through like-leveled solo content, take on heroic content others can't.  Which makes asking to be substantially improved as soloists look more like selfishness.  SMILEY
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:16 PM   #48
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I love fighting multiples over singles, it goes so much easier for me, We have a bunch of aoe abilities added with aria are great.  As for soloing I have never had that much of a problem but if you are expecting to take down groups of 1 ups sorry that isn't a solo encounter thats heroic and any class that can manage it would have to do tons of work as well, or take severe risks of dieing do to resists etc.  When soloing predators and rogues loose alot of there damage because they can't get in all the positionals, we don't have nearly that many that require stealth or positional so usually we can get them off when they come up with our stun, where the others can get off a couple but not all of them. 

And as far as grouping this is one of the reason I hate the parsers because people take there numbers so personal and its not accurate.  We add so much damage to a group, and in a caster heavy group I dare say figure in all we can do and we are well above other scouts, yes you need the right situation but heh thats part of the game.  If your looking for the ow wow look at me factor go play an assassin and than maybe you will realize sure you get that effect once in a while but in the long run you aren't adding that much.

I solo fine and I have nothing special treasured, legendary mostly and all adept 1's except trainer choices. If you are expecting the big huge solo kills get over it thats not us, unless like some say you want to kite forever.  And just because you may find a class that can do it or a person who can a vast majority can not.

Also bruisers are same tier, monks are one tier lower they are not same damage wise bruisers do more than monks but monks have better(more reliable defensive skills).  Bruisers may parse higher than you while grouping but that doesn't mean they are adding more damage to the group and its why I hate people useing parsers and taking them as gospel.

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